ORCA - Coming Soon: SILVIA RM SPEC CUP!

[CC570]

Why not use the Start/Finish line?

 

[Torzilla]

If I make everybody wait until their counter for lap2 starts then people in the back of the pack just sit and watch the front half of the field pull away because they can't accelerate until they've started their second lap. The way real life series do it, like Indy Car, is when the front row reaches a certain point on the track then the whole field goes green and that's what I'm trying to accomplish.
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I dont think there would be a problem with this kind of set up. The drivers in these series' are always respectful and race clean. Ive done races with rolling starts and as long as everyone is on the same page its not that hard. I also think that since the Silvia series is only 4 races it would be a good experiment to see how this works out.

 

[dsgerbc]

The white boxes painted on the front straight that designate where the cars start.

I'm not sure there are always 16 of them, are there?

These should be in the same location from every field of view and can easily be verified by watching the replay.

So what's the rule? We can start when #1 crosses them? Will #16 be able to see it clearly?

I refuse to have people start at a certain time on the timer because people should be watching the track/cars in front of them and not the clock.

A quick glance at the lap counter to switch to 2 shouldn't be too bad.

If I make everybody wait until their counter for lap2 starts then people in the back of the pack just sit and watch the front half of the field pull away because they can't accelerate until they've started their second lap.

That's a plus in my book, if you're looking for less messy starts. That places a lot more emphasis on qualifying, but with just four races I'd expect a lot more diving on the inside if car are too close together.
And when people know that's the way it is - they stay closer to each other, partially negating the effect.

The way real life series do it, like Indy Car, is when the front row reaches a certain point on the track then the whole field goes green and that's what I'm trying to accomplish.

There isn't a marker in GT5 (like a green flag) that is clearly visible to everyone.

 

[BrandonW77]

Why not use the Start/Finish line?

We could, it's just more thrilling to tear across the start line with a head of steam! The whole idea is to give us a little more time to get settled and stable before we get to the first turn, in the hopes of preventing chaos. By going green well before the start/finish line then we will all be entering turn 1 closer to the normal speed (lap 1 speed is usually a slower entry to turn 1 which means nobody knows where the braking point is).

I'm not sure there are always 16 of them, are there?

Doesn't matter how many there are, there will always be one for the last starting point and that's where the front row will go green, the rest of the field will follow.

So what's the rule? We can start when #1 crosses them? Will #16 be able to see it clearly?

P16 doesn't need to see P1 clearly, everyone will accelerate when they see the cars in front of them accelerate. In real life the back of the field can't always see the front of the field.

A quick glance at the lap counter to switch to 2 shouldn't be too bad.

See my reply to CC750 above

That's a plus in my book, if you're looking for less messy starts. That places a lot more emphasis on qualifying, but with just four races I'd expect a lot more diving on the inside if car are too close together.
And when people know that's the way it is - they stay closer to each other, partially negating the effect.

There will still be some stagger to the start, the last row won't accelerate at the exact same second that the front row does, they will react to the row in front of them. Imagine being 5th or 6th in line at a red light, when it turns green the 1st car accelerates, then the 2nd car accelerate, then the 3rd car accelerates, etc. The slinky effect, so this will put a little bit of space in the field but not an excessive amount.

There isn't a marker in GT5 (like a green flag) that is clearly visible to everyone.

Doesn't have to be visible to everyone, when row 2 sees row 1 accelerate, they accelerate too. When row 3 sees row 2 accelerate, they accelerate too. Etc., etc. I think it's a lot more simple of a concept than what we're making it out to be.

 

[Torzilla]

My experience with rolling starts has been; you follow the car in front of you at a resonable distance until they turn up the juice. If you're in the back you may not be able to see where the the first person in line is but you should be able to see 3 or 4 cars in front of you, once you see a few car lengths in front start to go, you get ready, as soon as the car in front of you starts to take off you hit the pedal on the right. Everyone should know where the start line is so I like using that more than the starting blocks. I dont like waiting until the counter goes to lap 2 because that puts people in the back at a huge disadvantage, the people in the front will be way out on the track while the drivers in back are still stuck in 2nd gear. I still have more faith in people in these series' that the first corner won't be messy, if it is we can always find the culprit and slash their tires.

we can also always do a short pre season race to make sure everything goes smoothly

 

[Johnnypenso]

Something else I'm planning on doing this season is a rolling start for all races. This will hopefully prevent massive 🤬-ups in the first turn of the race since we'll have slightly warmer tires and have more time to setup/plan for the turn. Also, this car is kinda tricky to get going from a stand-still so a rolling start will do away with burnouts in the starting box.

There are multiple ways to do this, but you know I like simple and easy. The easiest way I can come up with to do this is that everyone will pull away after "3..2..1..GO!" and proceed to do a pace lap at around 100mph/160kph. We will do this for one lap (being careful not to crash anyone) and when the front row reaches the first starting block on the front straight (the white box on the track that the final starting position would start from) that is when we will go green. I don't want to go green at a certain time on the timer or have to pick a different spot on each track, too much work. But every track has starting blocks painted on the front stretch so when the leaders get to the starting block for P16 we all go green. Make sense? Questions/Concerns?

I was going to suggest rolling starts but figured I'd be shot down!!! I'm all for it, but I'd much rather use either the start finish line or a chicane. You can use the S/F line at many tracks, the whole field goes when the leaders cross the S/F line, no passing before the start finish line means no one can jump the start, but the cars at the back of the field don't have to wait until the S/F line to go, they just can't pass before the line is all.

Alternately you can pick a chicane or tight corner to start out of on some tracks. I've been through that on some tracks and it works well. Monza with chicanes for example. If everyone goes at the S/F line or the grid box, the draft will still create the same pile up issue in the first corner except the cars started out at 80 km/h instead of 0 so they're actually going faster on cold tires than they normally would. But if you go exiting the first chicane, you take it out of the equation and spread the field out a bit in doing so. I don't think the chicane issue applies to the tracks on the schedule so far. The first corner at Motegi should be awesome for a rolling start, same as Tsukuba and of course the oval is a no brainer.

In Sag's Tri-Auto Cup we used a single file rolling start that worked extremely well. He also had a gridding procedure that worked perfectly for getting everyone lined up halfway around the track before proceeding to the starting point. I'd suggest adopting that because you can't rely on GT5 to get the grid order right all the time so some manual gridding may be necessary.

Nice to see you Norm and Cnd

 

[dsgerbc]

when it turns green the 1st car accelerates, then the 2nd car accelerate, then the 3rd car accelerates, etc.

They way you've talked about it now, if I'm for example in P5 and see where the P1 is I see no reason to wait for P2-P4 to accelerate. If you don't want it that way - set it up accordingly.

I have no issues with the rule where P1 gets to floor it at a certain point and all the others get to accelerate only after the car in front of them does. In this case, though, it doesn't make too much sense to make the point where P1 floors it exact.

Given the speeds you're talking about, P1 (everyone else who secured a higher starting grid position) should have the benefit of flooring it at a point of his choosing (say, between P16/P_last bracket and Start/Finish line) to give him a bit of a chance of not being draft-passed.

Starting at some tight chicane is good too.

 

[BrandonW77]

I wasn't trying to imply you can only accelerate when the car in front of you does. Everyone is allowed to accelerate as soon as the front row does, but due to differing amounts of visibility the back rows will have to use the cars in front of them for reference. Also, the front row doesn't have to be pinpoint precise as to where they accelerate, as long as they're within half a car length or so.

As long as everyone can hear me I could give the signal to go green over the mic. Once I feel the front row is at a good place I can give the command and everyone tears ass. It's not something that needs to be that big of a deal, we take a pace lap and basically as we come out of the final turn we all accelerate and start racing. The starting boxes are essentially just as visible as the start/finish line and are present at every track. Starting after a chicane just seems.....I don't know, like racing with little boy pants on. Melee's at turn one are a part of racing, I'm not trying to do away with them all together, just trying to minimize the chances a little.

Plus, doing a pace lap and rolling start makes it feel more like "authentic" racing.

 

[cnd01]

I wasn't trying to imply you can only accelerate when the car in front of you does. Everyone is allowed to accelerate as soon as the front row does, but due to differing amounts of visibility the back rows will have to use the cars in front of them for reference. Also, the front row doesn't have to be pinpoint precise as to where they accelerate, as long as they're within half a car length or so.

As long as everyone can hear me I could give the signal to go green over the mic. Once I feel the front row is at a good place I can give the command and everyone tears ass. It's not something that needs to be that big of a deal, we take a pace lap and basically as we come out of the final turn we all accelerate and start racing. The starting boxes are essentially just as visible as the start/finish line and are present at every track. Starting after a chicane just seems.....I don't know, like racing with little boy pants on. Melee's at turn one are a part of racing, I'm not trying to do away with them all together, just trying to minimize the chances a little.

Plus, doing a pace lap and rolling start makes it feel more like "authentic" racing.

I like the idea of starting at the start/finish line. It cuts the confusion of when exactly is the grid box. Or if there is a convenient chicane like at Daytona RC start coming out of it.

 

[IforceV8]

From the PURE/G.A.T.E rules:

Rolling starts:
Regular rolling starts will be used for today's race, here's a new guideline we whipped up for it (useful for people that haven't done rollers before)

A staggered double-file line is used for our rolling start for the first lap after which the race will begin at the pre-determined starting point.
( First time pole sitters will be contacted for confirmation of the following regulations)

Pole sitter will be contacted on what side of the track they would prefer to start from (right or left). This detail will be posted in race specific post prior to the race (linked by clicking on the relative track box images in the OP thread).

Even number qualifiers will always be on the second place cars lane. Odd number qualifiers will be in the pole sitters lane on the other side.

Once the GT5 race countdown has completed and the race event has begun all drivers must hold position and wait for confirmation from the host to proceed. Use your handbrakes, sit silently, report any suspicious latency between cars or lag jolting/skipping. After the host has given the go ahead all drivers will begin to slowly form up in qualifying order. The leader must act as herder, they must not pre-maturely advance from the group, it is their job to keep the pace slow enough until all cars are in position then proceed to formation speed.

Even pace at 100 kmh / 62 mph,
The pole leader must wait for the grid to line up behind them completely on the start straight before starting the race by applying full throttle at the pre-determined track race starting mark (may not always be the regular start/finish line)

No weaving is allowed during formation lap.
You must not overlap the car ahead of you.
Do not pass any car until you're past the point the pole sitter started the race at.
Jump starters will be given warnings or penalties depending on severity.

If a driver is damaged on formation then the damaged driver must communicate this through text chat and continue at a reasonable speed to the pit area. The other cars will continue on as normal and the damaged car(s) can join the group as they come around for their first lap. At this point the formation lap will continue on for a second lap after which the race will begin. If it happens once more, the same contingency will be applied and a third formation lap will go on. After this, no more "formation restarts" will be acceptable and the affected drivers must either retire or start far behind the group. Drivers experiencing extreme lag will be asked to leave so the other drivers can race.

If, for any reason, a driver misses the formation start and stays behind still on the track the race will not go on, it must be restarted to eliminate the obstacle.

 

[Torzilla]

I think the rolling start thing is only more reason for a jump track. Put the jump over the start/ finish line and keep it just far enough from the final turn that you have to be at a high enough speed or meet your demise. Problem solved.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ Lots of rules and procedures for people to follow. I'll have a section in the OP stating the procedure for the pace lap (maintain speed, don't swerve, etc.) for everyone to reference and then do a short recap in the chat box before the race.

We will do a couple practices to find out what works best, I really don't think it has to be very complicated and when we're on track it will be straightforward.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Here is the Tri-auto Cup start procedure:

When all cars are in the pits, the race director will start the race. Once the race starts, all drivers must hold the brakes and wait to be called. Drivers will be called in qualifying order to create the grid; once called, drivers will proceed around the track to the line-up area (light blue). Drivers will line-up in single file, stop and wait for the race to start. Once all drivers have lined up, the race director will give the start signal: “START”. At this point, the pole sitting driver will slowly drive (maximum 60 mph / 100 km/h) and lead the field to start the race. At the start point (Yellow/orange mark), the leading driver may go full speed; however, overtaking is prohibited until the start line (start of lap 2). Purposefully slowing to hold up drivers behind you before the start is strictly prohibited.

Line-up area: in blue
“Go” point / start point: Yellow mark / orange crest

It's an option that can be used, or you can elements from it. It worked perfectly for me and JP has endorsed it. Owens and Lancer have experience with it as well.

My preferred way of a rolling start is to use a volunteer safety car and use the old formula 1 method of restarts. Safety car would lead the field around for 1 lap and pull into the pits (and then exit the race). The pole sitter effectively becomes the safety car after that and controls the pace up until the start/finish line, when overtaking becomes allowed. The major downside is that it requires a non-racer to drive the safety car, so that may not be a feasible method. The Tri-Auto cup method of starting was basically the same, except adjusted to compensate for no safety car, hence the "go point".

 

[BrandonW77]

Well, problem solved. Motegi oval doesn't have starting boxes painted on the track so we'll just use the start/finish line to go green on all tracks (to keep things consistent).

 

[cnd01]

Well, problem solved. Motegi oval doesn't have starting boxes painted in the track so we'll just use the start/finish line to go green on all tracks.

That sounds great. I also am a proponent of the "stop box" idea as well. It makes certain that the order is correct.

 

[BrandonW77]

That sounds great. I also am a proponent of the "stop box" idea as well. It makes certain that the order is correct.

I have a good method for qualifying that pretty much always starts us in the correct order (providing everyone follows instructions). I like to keep the proceedings quick and on schedule so I usually try to avoid anything that makes us stop on track and line up. The pace lap will give us a chance to verify the order as we're rolling and we can make a quick adjustment if/when necessary. 👍

 

[LancerEvo7]

Once you get used to it, a manual pre-race line-up can take only 2-3 minutes, plus it works every time. I've never seen it mess up, while waiting in the pits is usually a crapshoot on a correct grid.

 

[BrandonW77]

Once you get used to it, a manual pre-race line-up can take only 2-3 minutes, plus it works every time. I've never seen it mess up, while waiting in the pits is usually a crapshoot on a correct grid.

Well, if it takes people a few races to get used to it, half the season will be done by then.

During the entire Alfa season we only had one incorrect grid and that was due to user error. But we have had an update since then so it could all be broken again.

 

[carracerptp]

Well, if it takes people a few races to get used to it, half the season will be done by then.

During the entire Alfa season we only had one incorrect grid and that was due to user error. But we have had an update since then so it could all be broken again.

They are still are happening.

 

[Johnnypenso]

.

As long as everyone can hear me I could give the signal to go green over the mic. Once I feel the front row is at a good place I can give the command and everyone tears ass. Plus, doing a pace lap and rolling start makes it feel more like "authentic" racing.

The voice command won't work for me. My engine sounds are way too loud and most of the time I can't hear what anyone is saying on the mic when I'm in motion.

Well, problem solved. Motegi oval doesn't have starting boxes painted on the track so we'll just use the start/finish line to go green on all tracks (to keep things consistent).

Motegi however, does come with the rolling start feature built in like the other ovals.

Once you get used to it, a manual pre-race line-up can take only 2-3 minutes, plus it works every time. I've never seen it mess up, while waiting in the pits is usually a crapshoot on a correct grid.

I know you want it to be simple Brandon, but this works every time, it's very simple and easy to follow because you call the cars out one at a time by name and everyone proceeds to a designated area on the track, usually a straight section 1/2 to 2/3 around the track. In Sag's series most of us didn't know each other, we only had three races, and we lined up quickly and correctly each time.

If we rely on PD and it screws up then we need to implement a manual gridding procedure no one will be familiar with and that can be messy and disorganized.

 

[BrandonW77]

I know you want it to be simple Brandon, but this works every time, it's very simple and easy to follow because you call the cars out one at a time by name and everyone proceeds to a designated area on the track...

My idea of simple requires no work from me or the drivers. Making drivers wait around for instructions while I type out everyone's name and the instructions is not my idea of simple. Everything seems simple when you're just a participant.

I refuse to jump through unnecessary hoops and cause extra work for drivers like a lot of other series do. I've organized and directed 4 successful seasons by keeping things simple and organized and in over 60 official races we've had very few of the problems that plague other leagues. I've also always been quick to react and adapt to any issues that present themselves and this season will be no different, if my qualifying method doesn't work we'll try something different. We will do a couple practice races to make sure everything works as planned.

 

[OwensRacing]

Not gonnna lie. That line up way is simple and works every time. I prefer it. Heck I will even jump out and do the typing of order if need be.

However I trust B has this handled is manner that works as stated.

 

[IforceV8]

^ Lots of rules and procedures for people to follow. I'll have a section in the OP stating the procedure for the pace lap (maintain speed, don't swerve, etc.) for everyone to reference and then do a short recap in the chat box before the race.

We will do a couple practices to find out what works best, I really don't think it has to be very complicated and when we're on track it will be straightforward.

Sit
drive slow
drive straight
dont cheat
go

What can go wrong?

 

[BrandonW77]

Sit
drive slow
drive straight
dont cheat
go

What can go wrong?

If I read it correctly it stated that the whole field might have to move themselves to the other side of the grid depending on which line the pole sitter decides to start on. And this would all have to be discussed ahead of time in a separate thread. That's just about the most convoluted thing I've ever heard, if I ever ask you guys to do something this silly you can petition to have me banned from GT5.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Motegi however, does come with the rolling start feature built in like the other ovals.

Unfortunately, it's glitchy. In one practice race, there was a huge gap between rows 2 and 3, basically segregating the field into two groups at the start. The second half of the grid was well outside the draft of the first half, completely unfair for those in the second group.

 

[Johnnypenso]

If I read it correctly it stated that the whole field might have to move themselves to the other side of the grid depending on which line the pole sitter decides to start on. And this would all have to be discussed ahead of time in a separate thread. That's just about the most convoluted thing I've ever heard, if I ever ask you guys to do something this silly you can petition to have me banned from GT5.

Polesitter starts on the inside...not that complicated. At many of the tracks in the game the grids are staggered and the polesitter actually starts on the outside. Tsukuba for example is like that. If we're doing a rolling start and staying in the same grid position that GT5 lines us up in, then the polesitter is stuck on the outside at Tsukuba, but it won't be a staggered start it'll be side by side and the guy who qualifies second actually gets the inside line in the first corner, a considerable advantage at most tracks. One of the benefits of manually lining up the grid.

You usually type out the grid order anyway. Only difference here would be that you would type it out after the countdown calling guys to the grid. It's no more typing than you would have done otherwise. It's literally seconds worth of typing to ensure a perfect grid. You have to see it in action to see how simple it really is and how well it works. We should try a couple of different start procedures in the pre-season to see what will work best and be simple enough to satisfy you.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sit
drive slow
drive straight
dont cheat
go

What can go wrong?

What can go wrong is PD can line us up in the wrong order. Happens all the time. Hey are you going to race with us again this time?💡

 

[BrandonW77]

I usually only type out the top 5 and do it all in one comment which takes about 30 seconds. Typing out someone's name, waiting for them to roll out, typing the next person's name and waiting for the to roll out, repeat, repeat, repeat, then having to start all over again because someone pulled too far forward and ruined the lineup.......that adds too much time and frustration for my liking. I've done the manual grid line ups several times, never liked them and never will because I see it as unnecessary and it also dampens the excitement.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I usually only type out the top 5 and do it all in one comment which takes about 30 seconds. Typing out someone's name, waiting for them to roll out, typing the next person's name and waiting for the to roll out, repeat, repeat, repeat, then having to start all over again because someone pulled too far forward and ruined the lineup.......that adds too much time and frustration for my liking. I've done the manual grid line ups several times, never liked them and never will because I see it as unnecessary and it also dampens the excitement.

So the polesitter is going to be stuck on the outside at Tsukuba then?

 

[Torzilla]

Ive been running in Lancers series and his calling out drivers works great. Ive also run in a few of Brandons series and his system works great too. I think this is turning into a bs argument, let the stewards decide what they want to do, if you dont like it sit out of the series. Its only 4 races there will be another one, that wasnt a complete sentence.