Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Oh, so that's what the thread is about? In that case yes, OBL was killed for real 👍

Oh don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that he's dead. Al Qaeda are saying it too. Losing any chance they might have had of letting the doubters doubt.

No I was just making a remark about how this thread (which initially was a Current event / news story thread ) degraded into a pointless argument where conspiracy theory ideas were getting thrown about. Then it got into other areas touching on politics and then religion. Which are in the lockable area, dare I say it.
 
Oh don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that he's dead. Al Qaeda are saying it too. Losing any chance they might have had of letting the doubters doubt.

No I was just making a remark about how this thread (which initially was a Current event / news story thread ) degraded into a pointless argument where conspiracy theory ideas were getting thrown about. Then it got into other areas touching on politics and then religion. Which are in the lockable area, dare I say it.

Unfortunately, politics, conspiracies, and religion are topics inseparable from this man, whether he's dead or alive.
 
I have no doubt that he's dead. Al Qaeda are saying it too.
Bah, that won't stop the conspiracy theorists! It's fairly obvious al'Qaeda are claiming bin Laden is dead so that when bin Laden shows himself, the USA looks silly. For now, they're just playing along with the charade because they think it's funny and Obama asked them to.

And now my tinfoil hat is beginning to chafe.
 
Well, at least someone will miss him, joking aside, their questioning is fair and coherent to mine : Why wasn't he captured alive? That would have made for a unquestionable victory to everyone.
 
They are angry because he did get a trial nor they got to say their goodbyes in their own way.
Well, at least they have something in common with his victims' families.

Pardon me while I try to find that tiny violin.
 
Pardon me while I try to find that tiny violin.

I feel a little sorry about the systematic destruction of the rule of law. On the other hand, the law of the jungle is in very healthy shape.

I see a clear path from Sun Tzu through Machiavelli to Obama. The ends justify the means. Might makes right.
 
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I feel a little sorry about the systematic destruction of the rule of law.
Are you saying that his death is a sign of the systematic destruction of the rule of law? If so, there is a bit of poetic justice in that it was his actions that sped us further along that path to a point where it resulted in his death.

On the other hand, the law of the jungle is in very healthy shape.
While my sensibilities have kept me from dancing in the streets or cheering for death, I would be lying if I said a very primitive part of me doesn't feel that SOB got what was coming to him. To this day I remember watching the news and still feel like I was watching a movie. I couldn't wrap my head around ever wanting to do what he did.

The true irony is that I want to celebrate his death because his actions opened a door to allow certain principles I find important to be violated by my own government. Those same principles make me feel guilty for celebrating his death.

The ends justify the means. Might makes right.
As I have said before, I disagree with this philosophy to the point of arguing with my wife about airport security. The war in Afghanistan quit being about Bin Laden years ago and I still do not agree with the use of torture. If, as has been reported, torture gave us the intel used to find him, then it was his victory over America that brought about his demise.
 
Bin Laden masterminded a huge attack on innocent civillians (and so is/was alledgedly guilty of crimes against humanity). Him being dead is closure for a lot of people affected directly and indirectly by those attacks.

Pretty simple concept, although people seem to struggle to understand it.

If your innocent mother was killed by someone, would you not seek some form of closure/justice?

Also, despite the wonders of modern intelligence, finding one man intent on hiding in lands where people idolise him is a pretty tall task. Unless you have 100% co-operation and eyes everywhere, it's going to be a long search.

I'm not going to call you out for trolling, but I think a little more respect is due towards the people in the towers and their friends and families that took the brunt of 9/11 - lives were torn apart that day and as small a victory as this may appear, for some it means the end of a long wait to start living again instead of merely existing.

EDIT: Actually, having just re-read your post, I am going to call you out for trolling. You seem very bitter about all this... fan of conspiracy theories or just trying to stir up a fuss? Are you one of them?

Closure and justice is one thing.

Dancing and cheering in the street like 8 year olds at a birthday party is another thing entirely.

If they attack you back and they are on camera dancing and cheering in the street, you guys will call them "filthy animals" and " look at them, they take joy in murder" - look at it with logical thinking.

He didn't shoot at the americans, in fact he was un-armed and your country killed him without trial.
Just like Saddam Hussein, slobadon milosovich he deserved a trial before death.

After all isn't America all about Innocent until proven guilty, and everyone should have their day in court, or is that only when it suits them?


Where is the proof Bin Laden was repsonsible for 9/11 ? Do they Americans not have any proof? Is that why they had to just kill him?

Think about it.

Americans are one of the most media driven,media indoctrinated, government led societies in the world though, so when the government says Bin Laden is resposnible for 9/11 you're never going to get more than 10% of people questiong that statement.
He deserved his day in court to let the facts come out, due to USA actions, this truth will never be known whether he was responsible or not.
 
The true irony is that I want to celebrate his death because his actions opened a door to allow certain principles I find important to be violated by my own government. Those same principles make me feel guilty for celebrating his death.
Who's to say those principles wouldn't have been violated by the government anyway? You should be mad at him for violating the rights of the individuals he did, but you shouldn't be mad at him for "opening the door". You should be mad at your government for tossing aside the rules they are supposed to follow and stepping through that door. You should be mad at your fellow Americans for not forcing the government to check itself at that door. Bin Laden is not guilty of taking away your freedoms - that has to do with the government and the people.

As I have said before, I disagree with this philosophy to the point of arguing with my wife about airport security. The war in Afghanistan quit being about Bin Laden years ago and I still do not agree with the use of torture. If, as has been reported, torture gave us the intel used to find him, then it was his victory over America that brought about his demise.
It's human nature to be angered by somebody making a fool of you. No matter how big and bad you are, the little guy, the clever one, wins. Bin Laden and his organization basically trolled our country and most people in it. Despite killing him, we have not won this fight, and we never will, unless we troll them back by refusing to compromise our American principles despite whatever pressures they may put on us. I'd argue that libertarian-type people have won the battle on an individual basis because they know this; however, the majority has led us to failure.
 
Shoudn`t this thread be labeled - Osama might be dead- . Emotionally I want his death
to be true , but I really have no proof . Nothing that would stand up in court .
I trust GOD , but governments , the media , get serious!
 
I've been thinking about OBL's compound - his "million dollar mansion", according to the early reports. Now in reflection it looks smaller and more utilitarian. My understanding is that he and his family spent something more than 5 years in what must be a fairly miserable place with no phone, no internet connection and no garbage collection. Is it conceivable that he was essentially confined here under a form of protective custody/house arrest? Possibly a quid pro quo from the Pakistani ISI, in consideration of his strategic services rendered to Pakistan during the Soviet occupation of their hinterland in Afghanistan, combined with an imagined deference to their new ally, the US?
 
Why wasn't he captured alive? That would have made for a unquestionable victory to everyone.

This comes up a bit: why he wasn't taken alive? Which is also tied into the SEAL team shooting of an un-armed man.

I can put forward a very strong reason why the SEAL guys would have fired at him instantly - weapon in hand or not . . . the very real likelihood that he would have used the time he had (from the first shots of the raid) to put on an explosive vest. It'd work like this - They find him in a room with no weapon "Okay you've got me I'll come peacefully" then detonate the thing when a few of the SEALs close in on him. Going out as a martyr and taking a few of Americas best soldiers all at once.

The possibility that they thought he could be wearing an explosive vest would explain the fact that he was killed by headshot(s). Not a shot to the main body mass. As an unlucky hit to an explosive vest could set it off.

He had always said that they would never capture him alive. Think about it if you were with the SEAL team. You kick the door open and Bin Laden throws his hands up "I surrender!" Would you like to be the one to approach him and tie his hands??
 
This comes up a bit: why he wasn't taken alive? Which is also tied into the SEAL team shooting of an un-armed man.

I can put forward a very strong reason why the SEAL guys would have fired at him instantly - weapon in hand or not . . . the very real likelihood that he would have used the time he had (from the first shots of the raid) to put on an explosive vest. It'd work like this - They find him in a room with no weapon "Okay you've got me I'll come peacefully" then detonate the thing when a few of the SEALs close in on him. Going out as a martyr and taking a few of Americas best soldiers all at once.

The possibility that they thought he could be wearing an explosive vest would explain the fact that he was killed by headshot(s). Not a shot to the main body mass. As an unlucky hit to an explosive vest could set it off.

He had always said that they would never capture him alive. Think about it if you were with the SEAL team. You kick the door open and Bin Laden throws his hands up "I surrender!" Would you like to be the one to approach him and tie his hands??

If it was the objective for him to be taken alive he would've been taken alive or he would have been painting the walls from detonating the explosives. If you were the seal team kicking open the door you would like to do nothing other than what you are trained or told to do. They could've stood in the doorway................................Maybe they did take him alive???
 
Have you guys seen that they have already made a documentary on how they killed him?

I think it's going to be on History Channel or History International.
 
From my understanding, they ( Seal Team 6) were under fire during the operation. Though they are prepared to take unarmed people. Does OBL have a right to a fair trial? If we caught him alive, would the Pakastani Government protect him from not going to trail? If he actually here in the United States, how high of a security risk will he be if someone were to kill him before his trial? I posted this before :
Bin Laden's former sister-in-law tells the Associated Press that he would have wanted to die "rather than face justice in an American court". Swiss-born Carmen Bin Ladin, who separated from his brother Yeslam more than 20 years ago, says she believes Osama Bin Laden had powerful supporters who protected and funded him up until the end.
 
I look at the reports again..:dunce:

Don't worry, that was a joke!... in my defense, I was actually preparing a longer post (i.e. a proper reply to your main point), but I got interrupted by work :sly:

In short, I don't believe the OBL would have got a fair trial in any case, even if he was entitled to one... but it was never likely to happen anyway. It is also a moot point as to whether a trial would have achieved much anyway.
 
Where is the proof Bin Laden was repsonsible for 9/11 ? Do they Americans not have any proof? Is that why they had to just kill him?

Think about it.

Americans are one of the most media driven,media indoctrinated, government led societies in the world though, so when the government says Bin Laden is resposnible for 9/11 you're never going to get more than 10% of people questiong that statement.
He deserved his day in court to let the facts come out, due to USA actions, this truth will never be known whether he was responsible or not.

Disclaimer:

I'm not American(some even accused me off anti-Americanism in these forums).
I, by principle, condemn every action taken in violation of International Law, made by USA or any other country( like the Invasion of Afghanistan)!
I'm against death Penalty, so I am also, by majority of reason, against any kind of execution!
But as much as I try, I can't feel anything but relief for this monster being DEAD.
I guess that Human Rights only apply to Beings with spinal chord...and OBL had downgraded to the level of a virus spreading hate and death trough out the World...he had to be eradicated for the sake of Humankind


Al-Qaida formally claimed responsibility last night for the September 11 attacks on the United States, with a video showing some of the hijackers making preparations in Afghanistan.

A male voice - apparently that of Osama bin Laden - praised the hijackers as "great men who deepened the roots of faith in the hearts of the faithful reaffirmed allegiance to God and torpedoed the schemes of the crusaders and their stooges, the rulers of the region.

"As we talk about the conquests of Washington and New York," the voice said, "we talk about those men who changed the course of history and cleaned the records of the nation from the dirt of the treasonous rulers and their followers".

Extracts from the recording were broadcast last night by the Arab satellite channel, Al-Jazeera. There was nothing to indicate that the sound-only recording attributed to Bin Laden had been made since the war in Afghanistan.

Video shots, which Al-Jazeera said had been filmed in Kandahar, southern Afghanistan, a few months be fore the attacks in the United States, allegedly showed four of the hijackers in a sparsely furnished room with belongings strewn on the floor and clothes hanging from hooks on the walls. Items on a table included an air chart of the US, and a flight instruction manual.

The hijackers were seen squatting on the floor scribbling notes in Arabic on the English language instruction manual and pointing at possible routes on the air chart.

Al-Jazeera identified those in the room as Hamza Alghamdi, Saeed Alghamdi, Wa'il Alshehri, and Ahmad Alnami. All were dressed in Asian-style clothes. One wore a woolly hat and the others had traditional headcloths.


According to the FBI, Alshehri was a hijacker on the first plane to crash into the World Trade Centre, Hamza Alghamdi was on the second plane, while Alnami and Saeed Alghamdi were on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

Separate shots in a different room showed a computer printing out coloured air charts.


An unseen hand pointed with a rough stick at the location of the Pentagon.

It is the first time al-Qaida has claimed responsibility for the September 11 attacks in such explicit terms. Many in the Arab and Muslim world still question whether Bin Laden was involved.


The voice attributed to Bin Laden praised the participants individually by name - especially the group leader, Mohammed Atta. The alleged hijacker also praised Osama bin Laden while thanking people who supported and trained him.

The excerpts shown last night also included a farewell message of a man it identified as hijacker Abdulaziz Alomari.

"My work is a message those who heard me and to all those who saw me at the same time it is a message to the infidels that you should leave the Arabian peninsula defeated and stop giving a hand of help to the coward Jews in Palestine.

"God may reward all those who trained me on this path and was behind this noble act and a special mention should be made of the Mujahid (Muslim holy warrior) leader Sheikh Osama bin Laden, may God protect him".

Al-Jazeera said over the weekend that one of its correspondents had interviewed two top al-Qaida fugitives wanted in the terrorist attack.

According to the interview, reportedly conducted in June with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh, the US Congress was the fourth American landmark on al-Qaida's September 11 hit list and the terror group also considered striking US nuclear facilities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/sep/10/alqaida.september112001
 
Closure and justice is one thing.

Dancing and cheering in the street like 8 year olds at a birthday party is another thing entirely.

If they attack you back and they are on camera dancing and cheering in the street, you guys will call them "filthy animals" and " look at them, they take joy in murder" - look at it with logical thinking.
When have Americans ever danced in the streets to celebrate the killing of innocents? They do, we don't. And some even tell us it was the chickens coming home to roost, that we deserved it, and that is why those people are celebrating. We kill the man that is responsible for an attack on innocent civilians, that has affected every single person in this country, and when people celebrate it gets questioned?

They celebrate killing innocent people, men, women, children, even their own people that came here. Yes, that is unquestionably disgusting.
We celebrate the killing of a mass murderer, who admitted to the act. I am willing to cut those who have an emotional burst of excitement some slack.

He didn't shoot at the americans, in fact he was un-armed and your country killed him without trial.
Just like Saddam Hussein, slobadon milosovich he deserved a trial before death.

After all isn't America all about Innocent until proven guilty, and everyone should have their day in court, or is that only when it suits them?
So, I guess you have seen the footage of the event and have first-hand knowledge of what went down in order to be able to feel like you can give this kind of damning reproach to those involved? You know he had no opportunity to surrender and was killed in cold blood?

Where is the proof Bin Laden was repsonsible for 9/11 ? Do they Americans not have any proof? Is that why they had to just kill him?
Seriously?

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That has been publicly available since October of 2004. Never mind the fact that Bin Laden bragged about it, claimed it, and showed evidence that they did it, all on video.

Think about it.
I am.

Americans are one of the most media driven,media indoctrinated, government led societies in the world though, so when the government says Bin Laden is resposnible for 9/11 you're never going to get more than 10% of people questiong that statement.
Actually, at one point 25% of the US believed it was an inside job. The other 75% are smart.

He deserved his day in court to let the facts come out, due to USA actions, this truth will never be known whether he was responsible or not.
And how do you know it isn't because of his own actions?

Who's to say those principles wouldn't have been violated by the government anyway?
Over a much longer period of time, maybe. The Patriot Act can be directly linked to the events of 9/11. Those events scared the majority of the population into saying, "So long as it keeps me safe," and not questioning loud enough if it actually will keep you safe.


You should be mad at him for violating the rights of the individuals he did, but you shouldn't be mad at him for "opening the door". You should be mad at your government for tossing aside the rules they are supposed to follow and stepping through that door. You should be mad at your fellow Americans for not forcing the government to check itself at that door.
Bin Laden's actions were the trigger. Government was the actor. And the American people were the ones who let it happen. They are all responsible.

Bin Laden is not guilty of taking away your freedoms - that has to do with the government and the people.
And Hitler didn't open the gas valve. Bin Laden wanted us to be scared and change our way of life. It happened, maybe not exactly how he planned, but it happened. We now pat down young children and infants at airport security, we took down privacy barriers, and we all did it so that we could feel safe from the terrorist bogeyman. He doesn't get to be free of that guilt.
 
Is it conceivable that he was essentially confined here under a form of protective custody/house arrest? Possibly a quid pro quo from the Pakistani ISI, in consideration of his strategic services rendered to Pakistan during the Soviet occupation of their hinterland in Afghanistan, combined with an imagined deference to their new ally, the US?

Yes, I think it is anyway. Looking back at Pakistan's history a few things stick out to me; The imprisonment of their democratic leader, the murder of his daughter, the period of Sharia etc. There is a separation from the Pakistani gov and the military, there could also be a separation between military and ISA. Internal struggles to say the least.

The Russian invasion of Afghanistan gave both Pakistan and the U.S. reason to support people like Bin Laden, just because the U.S. was only loyal to this alliance when it served them does not mean others feel the same way.
 
Has anybody heard reports about what Al-Qaeda was planning for 9/11/11?

My father told me that the SEALs found plans for 9/11/11 in Bin Laden's compound.
 
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