Ovals VS Road Courses

[thal689]

unoc you couldn't possibly be more wrong in your interpretation of NASCAR. I love it how the haters say.. I've only seen one race but lemme tell you what its about. its just ignorance. and on this case its not bliss. NASCAR is also about hitting the apex of the turn. the great thing is some cars do better at the top and some the bottom. your speaking about the draft and moving to the front. I can tell you have only watched Daytona or talladega . I guess I'm done trying to preach. because road race fans refuse to actually learn about ovals .sad really cause if they knew what was going on some might like it.

 

[Sasek]

I am just so very excited that I can always turn to the left ...

 

[Quintin03]

PD should put Calder park in. No way anyone's going to whine about going left there.

And why would you watch NASCAR to get to know ovals? There's also the Indycar series.

 

[Nero9]

I am just so very excited that I can always turn to the left ...

Wait i think you turn right when you exit the pit stop!

 

[SigmaViper11]

Don't forget there are many types of ovals.

These 5 would be a nice selection, with 4 of them having a decent road course as well, to please the more narrow-minded players such as yourself.


Bristol for example is tiny, with 2 equal turns:

Motegi is also very small, but with 2 different turns:

Daytona on the other hand is huge, with of the straights curved:

Indianapolis is enormous and rectangular shaped, with 4 equal turns:

The Lausitzring is basically triangle-shaped:

Now that's what I'm talking about. I'm coo with having a bunch of ovals, as long as the majority of them can contribute some sort of roadcourse layout.

 

[shirakawaa]

And let's not forget about this 👍

 

[Quintin03]

If only this one

or this one

Could be in. The last one in particular would be special because racing line is determined by the surface only.

 

[regnar]

And let's not forget about this 👍

The original roval

 

[thal689]

Oh yea. Some of the 1.5 ovals have a road course inside them. I thought race fans already knew that. So no worries ovals won't take away a road course. In fact an oval will add a road course that you have never raced on.

 

[Quintin03]

Most of the 1.5 Mi oval roadcourses are terrible to say the least. The surrounding oval must be at least 2 Mi or part of the track must be outside the oval. There are some good ones though.

 

[shirakawaa]

I just highlighted on Google Earth the historic oval Autodrome de Linas-Montlhéry (by the way, it's conveniently close to Paris) where Ken Block made his latest video. It's got also an interesting 10 Km road layout, maybe it would be a better choice for GT5 than a real NASCAR track:



Oval: 2.55 Km - 51 degrees banking (yellow)
Road course short: 3.39 Km (red)
Road course long: 10.0 Km (blue)
Road course long extended - 12.5 Km (historic - not shown here, it extends a bit more to the south, the road appears to be in pretty new condition but doesn't properly connect to the current track)

 

[Chad D.]

I am just so very excited that I can always turn to the left ...

well your a persistant troll, i'll say that

 

[lalaurentide]

unoc you couldn't possibly be more wrong in your interpretation of NASCAR. I love it how the haters say.. I've only seen one race but lemme tell you what its about. its just ignorance. and on this case its not bliss. NASCAR is also about hitting the apex of the turn. the great thing is some cars do better at the top and some the bottom. your speaking about the draft and moving to the front. I can tell you have only watched Daytona or talladega . I guess I'm done trying to preach. because road race fans refuse to actually learn about ovals .sad really cause if they knew what was going on some might like it.

NASCAR is the easiest form of professional racing. The fact that you can still compete at 40, even 50 years old, with the young ones is a proof of that. It is entertainment, nothing more; a lot of non-racing cars going very fast, close to each other to maximize crashes. Their only contribution to the world of motorsport is highway racing. It's like the car industry, the United States are still using cowboy technology in the form of carburetors and leaf spring suspensions, while Europe and Japan are aeons ahead.

 

[stig's helmet]

well your a persistant troll, i'll say that

so because he doesn't agree with having loads of ovals he's a troll?...

for me ovals are just...well...ovals. I suppose they're versatile as in they can be turned into road courses but i'd prefer proper road courses myself. It shouldn't matter too much any way, you can probably make ovals with the course editor.

 

[shirakawaa]

Sorry for bumping up again the thread regarding that Montlhéry oval, but this looks almost as if it was a gameplay video from GT (because of the very different cars actually racing on the short road course section of that track), I found it great:

 

[thal689]

NASCAR is the easiest form of professional racing. The fact that you can still compete at 40, even 50 years old, with the young ones is a proof of that. It is entertainment, nothing more; a lot of non-racing cars going very fast, close to each other to maximize crashes. Their only contribution to the world of motorsport is highway racing. It's like the car industry, the United States are still using cowboy technology in the form of carburetors and leaf spring suspensions, while Europe and Japan are aeons ahead.

So then I guess Football is the easiest sport since Brett Farve can lead a team to the championship game at age 40. That's proof right? If you speak of Mark Martin and Dale Earnhardt. All though Dale wasn't that competitive toward then end of his career. Mark is just super human in his old age.

But it is entertainment like all racing is. The France's just pay more attention to the fans then in other motor sports. Non-racing cars? Can't even respond to that. Makes no sense. Racing very close is better then racing 20 seconds apart from one another.

I think I speak for all Americans when I say what??? Leaf Springs went out around 85 and carburetors went out around 92. Leaf springs are still used in heavy duty trucks because they distribute the weight better then a coil spring. If you are talking about why Nascar sticks to the carb. Safety and being able to catch cheaters. Read up

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/icons/news/story?id=3473499

http://www.nascar.com/video/cup/2009/08/11/cup.wat.sights.sounds.nascar/index.html

We do race road courses. I'd like to see nascar race on 2 more road races. With a total of 4. I don't like all the 1.5 mile ovals. The drivers weren't happy with them either when they added a few after 2000. They called them "COOKIE CUTTER" tracks cause they were the same. Nascar left places like north wilkesboro and rockingham.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

I'll feed the troll too...

I am just so very excited that I can always turn to the left ...

Put it on reverse.

I thought a little more about it and I'd say about 4-7 ovals would be good as long as they are varied with a roadcourse. Even if there were as many as 10 it wouldnt bother me as we have the track generator.

 

[Radracing]

And let's not forget about this 👍

They should have this track in GT5 if we are going to have vintage F1 cars.

 

[lalaurentide]

So then I guess Football is the easiest sport since Brett Farve can lead a team to the championship game at age 40. That's proof right? If you speak of Mark Martin and Dale Earnhardt. All though Dale wasn't that competitive toward then end of his career. Mark is just super human in his old age.

But it is entertainment like all racing is. The France's just pay more attention to the fans then in other motor sports. Non-racing cars? Can't even respond to that. Makes no sense. Racing very close is better then racing 20 seconds apart from one another.

I think I speak for all Americans when I say what??? Leaf Springs went out around 85 and carburetors went out around 92. Leaf springs are still used in heavy duty trucks because they distribute the weight better then a coil spring. If you are talking about why Nascar sticks to the carb. Safety and being able to catch cheaters. Read up

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/icons/news/story?id=3473499

http://www.nascar.com/video/cup/2009/08/11/cup.wat.sights.sounds.nascar/index.html

We do race road courses. I'd like to see nascar race on 2 more road races. With a total of 4. I don't like all the 1.5 mile ovals. The drivers weren't happy with them either when they added a few after 2000. They called them "COOKIE CUTTER" tracks cause they were the same. Nascar left places like north wilkesboro and rockingham.

If the quarterback suffered the same contacts in strenght and frequency as every other player on the field, he probably wouldn't be able to play anymore. Anyway, he has a team, I wonder how an all 40 year olds team would perform?

They use "stock" car, sure the only thing stock is body dimensions, but they could improve it to make it a "racing car", this is why they bounce and wave on the track at 200mph even in straights, pit against GTs of the same power and weight they would have their arses handed to them, on both oval and road courses alike. All I said is that it's not high level racing, pretty much any professional driver in the world could drive a sprint cup car around in the same times because the reaction time is so slow (relatively speaking), hell I bet the GT Academy winner could do a decent job at it.

I like to watch a couple of laps now and then, and yeah often times F1 is a lot more boring, but I won't be sold on the idea that Nascar and its drivers is the cream of the crop, far from it. Yes it is disregarded, some are jealous of the money they make, some don't see them as real professional drivers, but they never tried to prove anyone wrong because they would prove that, as far as racing is concerned, Nascar is indeed a joke. Nascar is a stampede mate.

If you think American cars, not pickups, cars, were all injection after 92 and macpherson after 85, I don't know wich planet you live on.

On topic, 5 ovals.

 

[Northstar]

NASCAR is the easiest form of professional racing. The fact that you can still compete at 40, even 50 years old, with the young ones is a proof of that.

Other than Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin there are no drivers in their 40's or 50's that are competitive. And how about Michael Schumacher? That must mean F1 is 2nd easiest?

It is entertainment, nothing more;

As is every form of racing. Everything that someone does for pleasure is for entertainment, F1, DTM, WWE, NASCAR, WRC, whatever is on TV is for entertainment.

a lot of non-racing cars going very fast, close to each other to maximize crashes.

What exactly is a "racing car" and what makes it a "racing car"? Technically a Peel 50 can be a race car if you are racing it.

Their only contribution to the world of motorsport is highway racing.

What?

It's like the car industry, the United States are still using cowboy technology in the form of carburetors and leaf spring suspensions, while Europe and Japan are aeons ahead.

1)They use track bars, not leaf springs.
2)Carbs are easier to regulate, although they will be moving to fuel injection in the coming years.
3)Sometimes the simpler is better, not everything has to be about how technologically advanced something is. That is why there is still old cars on the road, sure a 458 Italia is a blast, but so is an old 300SL.

It's one thing to argue about something, but don't do it while being highly un informed.

But hey, thanks for reminding me why I never come into the GT section.

And before you jump on me about being a fanboy, look at the pole results, I voted for more street circuits. I like all racing, by doing what you are doing you are just limiting yourself.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I just have to say this; A Sprint Cup car is very much a racecar. The SC´c have about as much in common with their roadgoing counterparts as a DTM or SuperGT car, wich is basically nothing. The SC is actually pretty high tech - hence the soaring costs in NASCAR.

And leaf springs... If I remember correctly the Mustang GT has rear leaf springs...

 

[lalaurentide]

Other than Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin there are no drivers in their 40's or 50's that are competitive. And how about Michael Schumacher? That must mean F1 is 2nd easiest?



As is every form of racing. Everything that someone does for pleasure is for entertainment, F1, DTM, WWE, NASCAR, WRC, whatever is on TV is for entertainment.



What exactly is a "racing car" and what makes it a "racing car"? Technically a Peel 50 can be a race car if you are racing it.



What?



1)They use track bars, not leaf springs.
2)Carbs are easier to regulate, although they will be moving to fuel injection in the coming years.
3)Sometimes the simpler is better, not everything has to be about how technologically advanced something is.

It's one thing to argue about something, but don't do it while being highly un informed.

But hey, thanks for reminding me why I never come into the GT section.

Schumi won 7 title, he ain't nobody, can barely make it to 3rd qualifying round, Rosberg is easily better than him this season. 50 years old might be an exageration, but the best of the serie are almost all over 30.

Sending a man in space is entertainment too, it's on tv!, they would have sent one with or without the crowd, same thing can't be said of nascar, without the fans noone would race in circle for hours (not talking about the money required to finance the serie here), sure there would be derby running in circle on dirt tracks, but nascar-like stock car racing, doubt it. A speed junky, aka a professional driver, don't want to bore himself to death racing in circle on an easy high-banked circuit, aka an highway.

The Corvette use an advanced leaf-springs system at the back, it's a very good handling car, but then why the C6-R is a MacPherson? And that car wins everything, proof that American engineering can still beat the crap out of everyone, yet there is almost no evolution in Nascar, there is something about the south and conservatism.

A Peel 50 is a production car, yeah a sprint car is a racing car, my excuse, I consider it a dragster version of its street counterpart more than a proper racing version, I wasn't explicit.

Carburetors are inneficients. Simpler is slower, more reliable in most case, but slower.

 

[Northstar]

Schumi won 7 title, he ain't nobody, can barely make it to 3rd qualifying round, Rosberg is easily better than him this season. 50 years old might be an exageration, but the best of the serie are almost all over 30.

30 isn't all that old. Age doesn't mean much anyways, look at the NHRA, there are plenty of old guys that can still go out and win every weekend.

Sending a man in space is entertainment too, it's on tv!, they would have sent one with or without the crowd,

It wouldn't be on TV though if people didn't find it entertaining.

same thing can't be said of nascar, without the fans noone would race in circle for hours (not talking about the money required to finance the serie here),

Same thing can be said about every race series, no fans means no money. That is why the A1GP failed, it couldn't attract fans.

sure there would be derby running in circle on dirt tracks, but nascar-like stock car racing, doubt it. A speed junky, aka a professional driver, don't want to bore himself to death racing in circle on an easy high-banked circuit, aka an highway.

1)If you are trying to make NASCAR sound bad, don't reduce your grammar to a horrible level.
2)Every thing that isn't point to point is going in a circle.
3)They go 200mph, how is that slow?
4)Any driver that gets paid is a professional driver, making NASCAR drivers professional.

The Corvette use an advanced leaf-springs system at the back, it's a very good handling car, but then why the C6-R is a MacPherson? And that car wins everything, proof that American engineering can still beat the crap out of everyone, yet there is almost no evolution in Nascar, there is something about the south and conservatism.

Once again, not everything has to be state of the art to be interesting. I'm guessing you are around 12 and have had computers and all that crap your whole life and have never had to deal with things that were just plain simple, they also were a lot more fun.

A Peel 50 is a production car, yeah a sprint car is a racing car, my excuse, I consider it a dragster version of its street counterpart more than a proper racing version, I wasn't explicit.

Once again, what is a proper "race version"?

Carburetors are inneficients. Simpler is slower, more reliable in most case, but slower.

Once again, how is 200mph slow?

Also, if it's so easy than why can't JPM win on ovals? Sure he was crap in F1 when he switched, but surely if NASCAR drivers are so bad even the worst F1 drivers could beat them.

If you are going to respond to me, please use some intelligence, and some grammar skills(the latter part being part of the AUP)

 

[Peter]

JPM was in no way crap in F1. He may not be able to win ovals because, obviously, they're 2 completely different motorsports, which require different skills.

 

[RACECAR]

Same With Marcos Ambrose. He can get it done on a road course, but can't even come close on Ovals.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The differential between JPM's performance on a road course and on an oval should be more than enough to demonstrate that a totally different skill set is required for the two disciplines.

Lets not forget, 7 times F1 world champion getting beaten by Carl Edwards in the Race of Champions

 

[UN_OC]

For those saying well.. this oval has slightly different corner characteristics to another... welll the nurburgring has rediculosly different to laguna seca and then to monaco vs spa etc... you don't even need to talk about corner characteristics there,

You can't argue that there are just as many differences in ovals as there are in track courses.


And to whomever said you don't need to hit the apex in nascar.. that wasn't my point. My point is that jsut as I and many others can't understand how nascar can be that interesting as the corners and car characters don't change as much throughout as in other forms of racing, you and nascar fans fail to understand how you can win and lose a race without having other cars around you.


Nascar its bloody obviously if you lost a second in a third of the track, because your suddenyl at the back. In f1 or v8s in australia or btcc or german tc or whatever, the race is also aginst a circuit.


Nascar... things to look after
car
change in track
other guys around you

f1 things to look after
car
change in track
other guys around you
15 different corners that each need to be handled differently depending on the stage.



Nascar ovals also have a big problem with online, one **** driver screws everyone up easily.. someone doesn't hit the brake before a corner at the right time and the whole field will crash and burn.
On tracks atleast the cars are spread out as opposed to without 3 seconds of each other so if yo miss it you only take out yourself and maybe another not everyone.

 

[thal689]

The double wishbone suspension is a little bit more then just a regular leaf springs. But yea I think the mustang does have leaf springs. Ur right.

Univ gotta agree with online racing part, that's why iracing has different tier level for more skilled racers. I hope GT will to. NASCAR you always have cars around you f1not so much. But its part of the unpredictable nature of NASCAR and ovals. On topic 10,ovals though we will probably get 7

 

[Wools]

I've been a lifelong Motorsport fan, all beginning with seeing a picture of a McLaren F1 in a Shell petrol station when I was a child. I grew up watching European series such as Formula 1, World Rally Championship, British Touring Car and many more smaller events. On that foundation I enjoy a whole multitude of racing and formulas, appreciating the sportsmen and teams that create the machines that they drive or ride.

However I've always felt distanced from Nascar and any Oval racing. I enjoy the sheer aggressive nature of the sport and the physical demands the drivers and cars go through circling the banked turns of Daytona for hundreds of laps. But as a spectator or driver, I don't feel the racing is as compelling to watch.

I don't feel it's fair to say that a Oval is easy to drive compared to a Circuit as the demands are completely different. However Circuits promote challenging issues that teams and drivers in Oval racing do not have to overcome. The course memorisation, multiple braking zones, corners, rumble strips, straights and run offs throw hurdles that are not as prevalent in Oval racing or simply do not exist. As a driver you have to take in far more information and deal with more varied situations that not only makes it more interesting to drive, but makes it more technical and fun for spectators.

I'm glad Polyphony are including Oval racing as I thoroughly enjoyed the event in GT5 Prologue when you have 1 lap to overtake the entire opposition. I can imagine a full field of Nascar Cars in Daytona is going to be a very impressive sight! But for watching, participating and playing, I will always prefer Circuit Racing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

f1 things to look after
car
change in track
other guys around you
15 different corners that each need to be handled differently depending on the stage.

I wouldnt argue with that, however as a formula it too often produces boring processional races.

Typically there is only one racing line around any F1 circuit, with an Oval, you might be able to run the top, or bottom of the track, and both can work just as well... how many times do you hear the expression "they are 3 wide into the corner" in F1? ... once, on the first lap.. in NASCAR, all the time...

...the point I'm trying to make here is that as a spectator sport F1 is possibly one of the worst examples to use.. because it is usually dull as ****.

And also.. your point about the on-line races being ruined because one car wipes out the field..

A) this happens in real-life.
B) the guys causing it online are probably the same people that think NASCAR/Oval racing is easy..