Ovals VS Road Courses

[Neal]

Oval tracks are more about car set up than driver skill so they're not as challenging as a road course but they'll sell the game in US so I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than the ones we already know about.

 

[arvin charles]

Oval tracks are more about car set up than driver skill so they're not as challenging as a road course but they'll sell the game in US so I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than the ones we already know about.

Racing is a team sport. Car set up is also incredibly important in any race series you care to mention.

And about ovals not being as challenging, I dare you to say that to Juan P. Montoya.

(of course, I will agree that in a video game, ovals don't pose as much of a challenge...But then again, the same can be said about road courses)

 

[djanikowski]

The problem with this comparison is that just driving on an oval track is boring and easy, but being the fastest on the track is near impossible.

 

[Earth]

Oval tracks are more about car set up than driver skill so they're not as challenging as a road course but they'll sell the game in US so I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than the ones we already know about.

Car setup matters ion both ovals and roadcourse. It's not all about skill no matter how good you are

(of course, I will agree that in a video game, ovals don't pose as much of a challenge...But then again, the same can be said about road courses)

With proper physics ovals can pose a great challenge as proven by NASCAR 2003.

But there are things about ovals that games still have not reproduced correctly, massive drag from packs of cars travelling at 200mph+ creates enormous amounts of turbulence that no game has simulated .

With a roadcourse I got a huge rumble strips and grass to save me if I push the car too far. on ovals you push too hard you eat concrete.

The problem is most people dont see the skill or challenge of oval racing and brush it off. Most games, I know NFS II is one, start you off with a large oval as the beginner track. That puts in peoples minds the notion that all ovals and oval racing is the easiest form of racing.

Oval racing should not be underestimated. Michael Schumacher refuses to attempt the Indy 500 along with many other modern F1 drivers because they fear how close the concrete walls are to the track

I dont know if there is any other track in the world that creates so many crashes in practice and the race. In order to run 235 down the straights like they do they have to run very low downforce which puts the cars on razor edge



Ex F1 Driver found the wall twice, once in practice, once in race.





there was a good NASCAR road race finish this year

 

[RACECAR]

The problem with this comparison is that just driving on an oval track is boring and easy, but being the fastest on the track is near impossible.

Having raced in a Nascar online league, I can definately vouch for that. Even when your leading its not easy, especially when someone is either gaining on you.

 

[Seismica]

Car setup matters ion both ovals and roadcourse. It's not all about skill no matter how good you are



With proper physics ovals can pose a great challenge as proven by NASCAR 2003.

But there are things about ovals that games still have not reproduced correctly, massive drag from packs of cars travelling at 200mph+ creates enormous amounts of turbulence that no game has simulated .

With a roadcourse I got a huge rumble strips and grass to save me if I push the car too far. on ovals you push too hard you eat concrete.

The problem is most people dont see the skill or challenge of oval racing and brush it off. Most games, I know NFS II is one, start you off with a large oval as the beginner track. That puts in peoples minds the notion that all ovals and oval racing is the easiest form of racing.

Oval racing should not be underestimated. Michael Schumacher refuses to attempt the Indy 500 along with many other modern F1 drivers because they fear how close the concrete walls are to the track

I dont know if there is any other track in the world that creates so many crashes in practice and the race. In order to run 235 down the straights like they do they have to run very low downforce which puts the cars on razor edge

👍 I've never found ovals easy, to accomplish fast laps you have to be extra smooth and precise. It should be fun in GT5 with the new physics...

 

[toyota_gt1]

More people need to see this.

When was the last time the margin of victory was 0.006 seconds on a road course?

EDIT: I can't seem to get this to work, can someone please fix it for me.
EDIT 2: Nevermind, got it to work.

Actually it was 0.002

 

[eSZee]

Watching any kind of car racing, maybe besides Rally, is just so boring.

 

[djanikowski]

Actually it was 0.002

Oh, that's right, i was thinking of this...

 

[TouringDevotee]

They are both challenging. Now can we stop insulting each other's respective tracks. I happen to have a love/detest relationship with Suzuka, but there is no need to say that it can't measure up to Daytona. If driving an oval puts you to sleep, then I believe that you just aided the case of Indy and Nascar fans with regard to difficulty.

How about a compromise. They are all...circuits. Join forces now, lest the more hardcore rally fans get a hold of you separately.

Edit:
Damn, I was too late... Now you're in for it.

Watching any kind of car racing, maybe besides Rally, is just so boring.

 

[arvin charles]

With proper physics ovals can pose a great challenge as proven by NASCAR 2003.

But there are things about ovals that games still have not reproduced correctly, massive drag from packs of cars travelling at 200mph+ creates enormous amounts of turbulence that no game has simulated .

My quote was comparing racing on ovals in comparison to video games. In real life, I found Daytona to be harder than both Sebring & St. Petersburg.

But in any video game, ovals aren't as hard. That's what I meant by not "as much of a challenge."

 

[RACECAR]

They are both challenging. Now can we stop insulting each other's respective tracks. I happen to have a love/detest relationship with Suzuka, but their is no need to say that it can't measure up to Daytona. If driving an oval puts you to sleep, then I believe that you just aided the case of Indy and Nascar fans with regard to difficulty.

How about a compromise. They are all...circuits. Join forces now, lest the more hardcore rally fans get a hold of you separately.

👍
Might want to check the scouter:

Spoiler

+9000

 

[djanikowski]

They are both challenging. Now can we stop insulting each other's respective tracks. I happen to have a love/detest relationship with Suzuka, but their is no need to say that it can't measure up to Daytona. If driving an oval puts you to sleep, then I believe that you just aided the case of Indy and Nascar fans with regard to difficulty.

How about a compromise. They are all...circuits. Join forces now, lest the more hardcore rally fans get a hold of you separately.
.

Don't get me wrong, I love road courses, and I wish NASCAR raced on more of them, I will watch any kind of racing from WoO to WRC to F1 to NASCAR. I just hate the people that blindly hate oval racing.

 

[LSX]

+1 stop the hate.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Im not really into oval racing.

I grew up with watching Formula One and Drivers like Michael Schumacher.

But i have a huge amount of respect for every race driver. I know how much skill it does take to survive one lap at Daytona.

The bad thing is... in a game, oval racing seems to be boring (to me of course). Sometimes challenging, but boring. Racing 100 Laps at Daytona against AI wont make that much fun.
But I can imagine that short online races on ovals will make a lot of fun in GT5, even for those people who arent really into NASCAR.
Online 800PP Daytona with the Corvette Z06 Tuned made a lot of fun in Prologue.

Eventhough, i think alot of people will aggree with me on that, more then 5 oval tracks would be really to much (in my opinion), especially if we only get 20 locations.

In a game it makes much more difference to change your current track from Spa Francorchamps to Monaco then Daytona to Indianapolis.

So PD, pls give us the most important oval tracks and a lot of traditional road courses!

 

[Ardius]

When was the last time the margin of victory was 0.006 seconds on a road course?

There are probably many examples, I wouldn't use that as an argument behind oval racing, though I imagine it happens far more often on ovals...it kind of falls into the same thing as overtaking, do you prefer the quality of the manouever or how often it happens?

Not quite into the thousandths of a second but still a close finish from last year:

And you don't even have to be racing to have exciting battles, it can be in times too:

But it goes both ways, I imagine there are plenty of exciting qualifying sessions on ovals too. Its just preference and what you rate as more impressive, one could argue either way that it is harder or easier.

 

[TouringDevotee]

👍
Might want to check the scouter:

Spoiler

+9000

Don't get me wrong, I love road courses, and I wish NASCAR raced on more of them, I will watch any kind of racing from WoO to WRC to F1 to NASCAR. I just hate the people that blindly hate oval racing.

Damn it, you both quoted me before I could fix my their/there mistake. I won't soon forget this.

 

[djanikowski]

There are probably many examples, I wouldn't use that as an argument behind oval racing, though I imagine it happens far more often on ovals...it kind of falls into the same thing as overtaking, do you prefer the quality of the manouever or how often it happens?

Not quite into the thousandths of a second but still a close finish from last year:

And you don't even have to be racing to have exciting battles, it can be in times too:

But it goes both ways, I imagine there are plenty of exciting qualifying sessions on ovals too. Its just preference and what you rate as more impressive, one could argue either way that it is harder or easier.

Like I said, I love all forms of racing, and yes there are exiting qualifying sessions in NASCAR, but it's not as exciting as F1 sessions because of the format, but every year at daytona and talladega, the whole field of 43 cars is within 1 second.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the drama in the "Go or Go Home" cars that have to qualify for the final 7 spots in the field, but still, I believe F1 has a more interesting qualifying format.

 

[LSX]

The Daytona 500 has the most exciting qualifying ANYWHERE in the world. Two 150 mile races that set odd and even starting spots. Only P1 and P2 are decided from time trials.

If only Nascar did all their quali like that, but that's a lot more money to spend every week. And if your a small team and stuff the car, forget it.

 

[WolfRacer543]

I dont hate NASCAR or ovals... I just hate driving on ovals in games.

But I want to make a couple of points.

Why on earth does it matter if its "easy" or not. At the end of the day, you have to better than all the other drivers on the track regardless of the form of racing.

Oval racing may be easier in the sense if you let loose a group of unskilled drivers they might start having fun races in a few laps, where as let them loose in F1 cars and they'll spent the whole day just learning how to "drive" it rather than "race". But at the end of the day its irrelevant for professional racing, because neither group of newbs will ever reach the level of the pros in a week of racing or probably even a year of racing. Regardless of how easy it is to "drive", in the end to "race" you still have to be better than the rest of the field. Hence why a great road racer may not become a great oval racer.

Second point, I know you NASCAR and oval fans love to get all defensive and that you feel like your sport is being attacked blah blah... but have you thought maybe its like that because many people really dislike racing on ovals? Now, I have nothing against NASCAR, I find it interesting to watch on TV, I think the technology is interesting, etc... but I just find racing on ovals in every game I've played to be extremely boring and dont see how GT5 is gonna change that. Sega GT, Forza, various Race Driver games, downloaded an ovals mod for GTR, live for speed and many others, I simply dont enjoy the oval races in any game I've played. They're just a painful task required to get to the next stage or to complete a series. Now that's coming from someone who actually kinda likes NASCAR (from a non-gaming perspective). Its the same as I love planes, but find flight sims really boring (except for WW1 and WW2 combat flight sims ).

 

[SR-71_Blackbird]

Who says ovals are easy? I bet the 'ring is stupid easy in a smartcar. Now in something worth a drive like a yellowbird it has to be near impossible. Same for ovals it may be easy in a smartcar but I have seen many decent sportscars (read BMW, porsche, astons) parked on a wall in many ovals even though they add chicanes in the straights to slow them down.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Who says ovals are easy? I bet the 'ring is stupid easy in a smartcar. Now in something worth a drive like a yellowbird it has to be near impossible. Same for ovals it may be easy in a smartcar but I have seen many decent sportscars (read BMW, porsche, astons) parked on a wall in many ovals even though they add chicanes in the straights to slow them down.

There's nothing to say ovals are easy. The problem is that there's no need to have a dozen different oval circuits of the same type where the only differenes lie in things like the distance and the degree of banking. I don't doubt for a moment that an enthuiast could describe to me how all of these factors impact upon lap times and performance - and it doesn't mean a thing to me. I'm the kind of person who likes to pick up and play. I don't think I have ever really fiddled around with the settings for the sake of trying to improve my lap time. So I sit at one extreme; at the other end, there's no doubt someone who spends most of their time tweaking settings in comparison to the amount of time their spend racing. And while GRAN TURISMO is marketed as The Real Driving Simulator, it falls to Polyphony Digital to make a game that everyone can get enjoyment out of. And if they were to include a dozen ovals of the same basic shape, all that will serve to do it turn people off it, regardless of how different the actual configurations are from one another.

 

[Micdog49]

How many different cars race in NASCAR? 4?

How many vehicles will be in GT5? Over 1000.

The hint here is that GT caters for all different tastes and styles related to motoring and the racing that evolves from it. We've been told we're getting "over" 20 tracks with multiple variations. If this is true (and I beg not so) putting a range of ovals in a game doesn't really make sense now does it?

Firstly NASCAR and oval racing is dominantly American. Trouble is Sony isn't just distributing to America and, to be honest, majority would much rather watch Ferrari's lap around the worlds longest, most challenging circuit, than a man in a Ford drive around in circles for a while.

Here in Aus, non-pay TV gets us the odd NASCAR round each weekend or so. Whilst I can sit down and enjoy it for a while, my mates think it's the most boring thing since Britney Spears started singing. This, combined with the fact that Australia is a very independant sporting country, means that someone who has tried GT4 and now wants GT5, will be very dissapointed to find half the game is dominated by a boring, foreign sport.

Which leaves 996 cars with only a few 'real' circuits to race on, which makes people bored, which sways the vote away from GT and towards other racing games (like Forza !) Which can bring an end to the GT series and i'm sure no-one wants that.

After all if you wanna drive in circles, buy NASCAR '10...

 

[Heath_1]

I forgot about Test Course. BUT that is actually the only oval track that I really genuinly like (and I know its fake) but it's the only track in the game that allows you to max your car out for maximum speed tests etc. I mean I hate actually racing on it, but it's very handy as I said for testing the maximum speed of your car.

 

[MatskiMonk]

How many different cars race in NASCAR? 4?

How many vehicles will be in GT5? Over 1000.

The hint here is that GT caters for all different tastes and styles related to motoring and the racing that evolves from it. We've been told we're getting "over" 20 tracks with multiple variations. If this is true (and I beg not so) putting a range of ovals in a game doesn't really make sense now does it?

Firstly NASCAR and oval racing is dominantly American. Trouble is Sony isn't just distributing to America and, to be honest, majority would much rather watch Ferrari's lap around the worlds longest, most challenging circuit, than a man in a Ford drive around in circles for a while.

Here in Aus, non-pay TV gets us the odd NASCAR round each weekend or so. Whilst I can sit down and enjoy it for a while, my mates think it's the most boring thing since Britney Spears started singing. This, combined with the fact that Australia is a very independant sporting country, means that someone who has tried GT4 and now wants GT5, will be very dissapointed to find half the game is dominated by a boring, foreign sport.

Which leaves 996 cars with only a few 'real' circuits to race on, which makes people bored, which sways the vote away from GT and towards other racing games (like Forza !) Which can bring an end to the GT series and i'm sure no-one wants that.

After all if you wanna drive in circles, buy NASCAR '10...

I think you make all your points well, but I must disagree... NASCAR has a massive following in the states, and also a lot of interest from around the world. Yes, I think the US market will 'get it' alot faster than us europeans will because they are exposed to NASCAR pretty much all the time on TV (from what I hear), I suspect most of the 'ignorance' towards NASCAR comes from a lack of education/exposure to it.

I'm not sure I get the foreign reference totally either. We don't get V8 supercar racing in the UK, but none of us brits would protest the idea of racing them beasts down the mountain at bathurst? I'm not sure what other 'native' aussie racing series there are, but surely, most are 'foreign' - unless you don't want SuperGT, DTM or LM cars either? ... I wonder if Marcus Ambrose's car will be one of the ones that ends up in the game?

I'll say again (as I've pointed this out previously)... if players repeatedly have to race the same two or three ovals over and over then they will get bored, and they will dislike it even more... if there is a representative selection, then thre will be different challanges, and hopefully a few of the non-believers will be converted! NASCAR is in GT5, it must be given a fair crack (same goes for IRL and Rally)

 

[Joey D]

I don't understand why the NASCAR crowd is so eager and pushy for everyone else to accept it and like it. That just makes me dislike the motorsport more.

 

[BigJimmy]

None of the above

I want the best tracks in the world, period.

No ovals at all then.

 

[WolfRacer543]

I think you make all your points well, but I must disagree... NASCAR has a massive following in the states, and also a lot of interest from around the world. Yes, I think the US market will 'get it' alot faster than us europeans will because they are exposed to NASCAR pretty much all the time on TV (from what I hear), I suspect most of the 'ignorance' towards NASCAR comes from a lack of education/exposure to it.

I'm not sure I get the foreign reference totally either. We don't get V8 supercar racing in the UK, but none of us brits would protest the idea of racing them beasts down the mountain at bathurst? I'm not sure what other 'native' aussie racing series there are, but surely, most are 'foreign' - unless you don't want SuperGT, DTM or LM cars either? ... I wonder if Marcus Ambrose's car will be one of the ones that ends up in the game?

I'll say again (as I've pointed this out previously)... if players repeatedly have to race the same two or three ovals over and over then they will get bored, and they will dislike it even more... if there is a representative selection, then thre will be different challanges, and hopefully a few of the non-believers will be converted! NASCAR is in GT5, it must be given a fair crack (same goes for IRL and Rally)

Being an Aussie, I'd say we have no more exposure to DTM, BTCC, SuperGT, or any other racing except maybe F1 than we have of NASCAR. Again, not including F1, NASCAR is represented out here as well as anything else (which isn't very well, its only with the new free to air sports channel we've gotten anything much, and even that's just replays, but still as much NASCAR as everything else).

You say the dislike of oval racing is from lack of exposure... I really disagree. I actually dont think NASCAR is too bad, I just dislike oval racing in games. I dont know how many ovals were in ToCA: Race Driver, but I disliked them all. I downloaded the "king of ovals" expansion for GTR, it has 3 ovals, I disliked them all. I honestly can't think of an oval in any game I've enjoyed racing... not that I hate them, more so "endure" them (hence why I dont want more than a couple).

 

[Seismica]

The Daytona 500 has the most exciting qualifying ANYWHERE in the world. Two 150 mile races that set odd and even starting spots. Only P1 and P2 are decided from time trials.

If only Nascar did all their quali like that, but that's a lot more money to spend every week. And if your a small team and stuff the car, forget it.

ALMS is just a big qualifying session for Le Mans I think that trumps it.

(Well, sort of... 1st and second placed teams get automatic entry i think, but its close enough lol)

Being an Aussie, I'd say we have no more exposure to DTM, BTCC, SuperGT, or any other racing except maybe F1 than we have of NASCAR. Again, not including F1, NASCAR is represented out here as well as anything else (which isn't very well, its only with the new free to air sports channel we've gotten anything much, and even that's just replays, but still as much NASCAR as everything else).

You say the dislike of oval racing is from lack of exposure... I really disagree. I actually dont think NASCAR is too bad, I just dislike oval racing in games. I dont know how many ovals were in ToCA: Race Driver, but I disliked them all. I downloaded the "king of ovals" expansion for GTR, it has 3 ovals, I disliked them all. I honestly can't think of an oval in any game I've enjoyed racing... not that I hate them, more so "endure" them (hence why I dont want more than a couple).

Thats why Oval racing in GT5 should be primarily NASCAR. If we get the GT world championship like we did in GT4 and it has more than 1 oval i'm not going to be happy.

We welcome ovals, but we don't want them to become too common in races events other than NASCAR. In the same way we don't want tracks like Grand Valley Speedway in NASCAR.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Being an Aussie, I'd say we have no more exposure to DTM, BTCC, SuperGT, or any other racing except maybe F1 than we have of NASCAR. Again, not including F1, NASCAR is represented out here as well as anything else (which isn't very well, its only with the new free to air sports channel we've gotten anything much, and even that's just replays, but still as much NASCAR as everything else).

You say the dislike of oval racing is from lack of exposure... I really disagree. I actually dont think NASCAR is too bad, I just dislike oval racing in games. I dont know how many ovals were in ToCA: Race Driver, but I disliked them all. I downloaded the "king of ovals" expansion for GTR, it has 3 ovals, I disliked them all. I honestly can't think of an oval in any game I've enjoyed racing... not that I hate them, more so "endure" them (hence why I dont want more than a couple).

Fair enough, and I agree about Toca, IIRC it had Dover, Gateway and Daytona? could be wrong... they weren't much fun.. but then, Toca isn't as good as GT to begin with.. so the fact another oval racing game didn't do it very well reflects more on that game, than the track itself.