Ovals VS Road Courses

[Sam48]

Thats why Oval racing in GT5 should be primarily NASCAR.

And IRL.

 

[TuneR-]

More road courses. A couple of ovals, maybe 2 or 3, is more than enough for me.

^This.

 

[eight6er]

Hopefully the addition of nascar, will mean that I will not be forced to drive ovals, in other racing series of the game. I always used to come first in every race, so I could skip the oval tracks and still win the series, in other GT games.

 

[Goldrusher]

Don't forget there are many types of ovals.

These 5 would be a nice selection, with 4 of them having a decent road course as well:


Bristol for example is tiny, with 2 equal turns:

Motegi is also very small, with 2 different turns:

Daytona on the other hand is huge, with of the straights curved:

Indianapolis is enormous and rectangular shaped, with 4 equal turns:

The Lausitzring is basically triangle-shaped:

 

[RACECAR]

Someone close this thread already, this argument is clearly never gonna get solved and its nothing more then another damn "I'd prefer Right Turns" BS argument:tdown:

 

[MatskiMonk]

Someone close this thread already, this argument is clearly never gonna get solved and its nothing more then another damn "I'd prefer Right Turns" BS argument:tdown:

Well, arguments rarely get solved when there is no right answer and no wrong answer.

 

[Earth]

They are both challenging. Now can we stop insulting each other's respective tracks. I happen to have a love/detest relationship with Suzuka, but there is no need to say that it can't measure up to Daytona. If driving an oval puts you to sleep, then I believe that you just aided the case of Indy and Nascar fans with regard to difficulty.

How about a compromise. They are all...circuits. Join forces now, lest the more hardcore rally fans get a hold of you separately.

Outside of the Nurburgring and Le Mans there is no other track in Gran Turismo that can even begin to compare to Indianapolis or Daytona in terms of prestige. That's the truth. I bring that up for the oval haters who think both courses should not be in GT.

As for the difficulty of an oval, when you race Indy you will see how early in the corner in a stock car you will have to make a commitment to the throttle, too early and you hit the wall or you have to lift on exit ruining your momentum down the 5/8 of a mile straights which will kill your time. That's just one example

My quote was comparing racing on ovals in comparison to video games. In real life, I found Daytona to be harder than both Sebring & St. Petersburg.

But in any video game, ovals aren't as hard. That's what I meant by not "as much of a challenge."

I see where you are coming from. In GT5P the bumps at Daytona dont throw the car around like in real life and brushing the outside wall does nothing to your aero or alignment. Also, there are no aero loose or tight physics going on, something created by close high speed racing.

Im not really into oval racing.

I grew up with watching Formula One and Drivers like Michael Schumacher.

But i have a huge amount of respect for every race driver. I know how much skill it does take to survive one lap at Daytona.

The bad thing is... in a game, oval racing seems to be boring (to me of course). Sometimes challenging, but boring. Racing 100 Laps at Daytona against AI wont make that much fun.
But I can imagine that short online races on ovals will make a lot of fun in GT5, even for those people who arent really into NASCAR.
Online 800PP Daytona with the Corvette Z06 Tuned made a lot of fun in Prologue.

Eventhough, i think alot of people will aggree with me on that, more then 5 oval tracks would be really to much (in my opinion), especially if we only get 20 locations.

In a game it makes much more difference to change your current track from Spa Francorchamps to Monaco then Daytona to Indianapolis.

So PD, pls give us the most important oval tracks and a lot of traditional road courses!

Racing 100 laps vs AI is boring no matter the track in my opinion, unless the AI is tuned to match your pace perfectly.

I think 5 oval tracks would be perfect. Daytona, Indy, Bristol, Lowes, and Twin Ring Motegi. Just as there is maybe a handful of tracks on F1's schedule that I see as GT5 worthy there is only a handful of NASCAR tracks that I see as GT5 worthy.

I agree with the most important oval track comment. And as you said earlier, 5 would be plenty. As long as we at least get one short track, preferably Bristol.

Second point, I know you NASCAR and oval fans love to get all defensive and that you feel like your sport is being attacked blah blah... but have you thought maybe its like that because many people really dislike racing on ovals? Now, I have nothing against NASCAR, I find it interesting to watch on TV, I think the technology is interesting, etc... but I just find racing on ovals in every game I've played to be extremely boring and dont see how GT5 is gonna change that. Sega GT, Forza, various Race Driver games, downloaded an ovals mod for GTR, live for speed and many others, I simply dont enjoy the oval races in any game I've played. They're just a painful task required to get to the next stage or to complete a series. Now that's coming from someone who actually kinda likes NASCAR (from a non-gaming perspective). Its the same as I love planes, but find flight sims really boring (except for WW1 and WW2 combat flight sims ).

I see your point. Even I myself do not like to race ovals offline. Oval racing is all about close tight racing and AI fails to provide that challenge. However racing an oval online with NASCAR 2003 vs a few dozen competitors is nothing short of thrilling. Conserving your tires, having to deal with constant traffic, cars in front of you behind you besides you, its no where near boring. When GT5 is released and alot of people new to ovals go online and race indycars down the front stretch at Indianapolis and overtake someone going 3-wide through the middle, or when they race onl,ine at Daytona with stock cars and all 16 drivers are in one large big pack when suddenly the leader gets spun out every one wrecks but they survive and win, alot of minds will be changed.

And if they were to include a dozen ovals of the same basic shape, all that will serve to do it turn people off it, regardless of how different the actual configurations are from one another.

Maybe we can agree on having just the best, most unique or important ovals in GT?

I think most NASCAR fans would be happy if just these ovals were in GT5. All 4 are extremely unique and nothing alike.

(The four biggest races in NASCAR take place at the following 4 tracks):
- Daytona (Daytona 500)
- Indianapolis (Brickyard 400)
- Darlington (Southern 500)
- Lowes (Coca-Cola 600)

- Bristol (there has to be at least one short track)

How many different cars race in NASCAR? 4?

How many vehicles will be in GT5? Over 1000.

The hint here is that GT caters for all different tastes and styles related to motoring and the racing that evolves from it. We've been told we're getting "over" 20 tracks with multiple variations. If this is true (and I beg not so) putting a range of ovals in a game doesn't really make sense now does it?

How many rally vehicles are in GT5? Maybe 50. That's less then 5% of the cars in GT5 so should PD have a range of rally tracks that are useless for 95%+ of the cars in the game?

Firstly NASCAR and oval racing is dominantly American. Trouble is Sony isn't just distributing to America and, to be honest, majority would much rather watch Ferrari's lap around the worlds longest, most challenging circuit, than a man in a Ford drive around in circles for a while.

And what will you say when the oval tracks are some of if not the most used tracks in online racing? Daytona oval in GT5P was always packed online

Here in Aus, non-pay TV gets us the odd NASCAR round each weekend or so. Whilst I can sit down and enjoy it for a while, my mates think it's the most boring thing since Britney Spears started singing. This, combined with the fact that Australia is a very independant sporting country, means that someone who has tried GT4 and now wants GT5, will be very dissapointed to find half the game is dominated by a boring, foreign sport.

Half the game? I got just 3 ovals, (two of the ovals, daytona and indy, host more then just oval racing, they also host Formula 1, MotoGP, and sportscars 24 hours of Daytona.) and a few stock cars. Indy cars racing 50% ovals 50% road courses.

Which leaves 996 cars with only a few 'real' circuits to race on, which makes people bored, which sways the vote away from GT and towards other racing games (like Forza !) Which can bring an end to the GT series and i'm sure no-one wants that.

After all if you wanna drive in circles, buy NASCAR '10...

Again, all 1,000 cars will be racing on the rally stages, jumping off of 20 foot jumps and sliding around on ice? OnlHeck, even Twin Ring MOtegi has a road course.

#176

I don't understand why the NASCAR crowd is so eager and pushy for everyone else to accept it and like it. That just makes me dislike the motorsport more.

I'm not pushing anyone to accept it or like it. I'm only reasoning why its in GT.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe we can agree on having just the best, most unique or important ovals in GT?

I think most NASCAR fans would be happy if just these ovals were in GT5. All 4 are extremely unique and nothing alike.

(The four biggest races in NASCAR take place at the following 4 tracks):
- Daytona (Daytona 500)
- Indianapolis (Brickyard 400)
- Darlington (Southern 500)
- Lowes (Coca-Cola 600)

- Bristol (there has to be at least one short track)

I'm fine with having a few ovals, so long as the casual game can see an actual, physical difference in the layout. Although I'd probably narrow it down to three: Daytona, Indianapolis and the Lausitzring (though Moetgi is likely to be incuded as well since it was in GT4). It's once you start getting multiple circuits where the only difference is in the length and the degree of banking - regardless as o how these might affect racing - that you run into problems.

 

[djanikowski]

I'm fine with having a few ovals, so long as the casual game can see an actual, physical difference in the layout. Although I'd probably narrow it down to three: Daytona, Indianapolis and the Lausitzring (though Moetgi is likely to be incuded as well since it was in GT4). It's once you start getting multiple circuits where the only difference is in the length and the degree of banking - regardless as o how these might affect racing - that you run into problems.

In my opinion, Daytona, Indianapolis, Darlington, and Bristol all deserve to be in GT5 as they are all very different from each other and important to the history of the sport.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It's once you start getting multiple circuits where the only difference is in the length and the degree of banking - regardless as o how these might affect racing - that you run into problems.

Okay, explain to me why Spa and the Nordschleife wouldn't cause you similar problems?

 

[Earth]

I'm fine with having a few ovals, so long as the casual game can see an actual, physical difference in the layout. Although I'd probably narrow it down to three: Daytona, Indianapolis and the Lausitzring (though Moetgi is likely to be incuded as well since it was in GT4). It's once you start getting multiple circuits where the only difference is in the length and the degree of banking - regardless as o how these might affect racing - that you run into problems.

I dont want multiple ovals where the only difference is the length and degree of banking, and I think most who like oval racing wouldn't either. In fact most who like oval racing hate the "cookie cutter" D shaped ovals that are taking over. They usually produce boring racing and are not as much of a challenge as the other ovals.

Allthough Lausitzring has an exotic shape it is no more unique and in no way more challenging then lets say Darlington or Bristol

Looking at a track map Darlington and Motegi look identical

However the actual tracks are nothing alike

Twin Ring oval is a wide, flat, spacious oval



Darlington is banked, extremely narrow, and requires you to race right around the top of the track next to the walls in the center of the corners so you can dive down to the bottom of the corners on exit.



Now Bristol, certainly anything but a cookie cutter or easy oval. Notice with iRacing physics it's anything but a walk in the park



As jDan said, Daytona, Indianapolis, Darlington, and Bristol should be in as all 4 are a challenge, have a long deep history, and are nothing like each other. I really hate that Twin Ring Motegi will likely take up a slot on the "oval" track list as there are far better ovals with way more history and more challenge then it.

Now lets not let road courses off the hook.

What is the big visibile difference between Catalunya and Bahrin that your average casual will be able to see immediately?

No, it doesnt have to be an oval to be dreadfully boring, allthough again I will agree that there are far more worthy roadcourses that should be in GT then ovals

Compare those two dreadful tracks to three roadcourses worthy of GT. Not only do these tracks look differnt from a map, but all of them have a long history. Lemans has the mulsanne. spa has ea rouge. Sebring is notoriusly bumpy. So far and different from the 'cookie' cutter trash road courses seen above

 

[WolfRacer543]

I'm not pushing anyone to accept it or like it. I'm only reasoning why its in GT.

I dont think people are arguing as to why its in GT, more so how well represented it is. If we truely only have 20 tracks, I dont want 4 of them to be ovals (though I'm aware many ovals have a road course as well, I'm just saying as an example). If the career mode has 100 races, I dont want 20 to be oval races. Simply because 1) I dont want to spend a lot of time racing ovals if I dont want, I want to be able to skip them without thinking I haven't played a large portion of the game. 2) If we truely have so few tracks, I'd rather PD would have spent these 5 years putting in lots of famous road courses than lots of ovals. Of course if the game is already almost finished and actually coming out in march 2010 and not smarch 2210, they aren't going to change anything, I'd just like to think of th elast 5 years they spent on the game I sure as hell hope they didn't waste 1 year of it including NASCAR and ovals.

 

[Earth]

I dont think people are arguing as to why its in GT, more so how well represented it is. If we truely only have 20 tracks, I dont want 4 of them to be ovals (though I'm aware many ovals have a road course as well, I'm just saying as an example). If the career mode has 100 races, I dont want 20 to be oval races. Simply because 1) I dont want to spend a lot of time racing ovals if I dont want, I want to be able to skip them without thinking I haven't played a large portion of the game. 2) If we truely have so few tracks, I'd rather PD would have spent these 5 years putting in lots of famous road courses than lots of ovals. Of course if the game is already almost finished and actually coming out in march 2010 and not smarch 2210, they aren't going to change anything, I'd just like to think of th elast 5 years they spent on the game I sure as hell hope they didn't waste 1 year of it including NASCAR and ovals.

Alot of Is in that paragraph.

With Gran Turismo 4 I am only 90 something percent complete. Why not 100%? The rally racing. I cannot stand it. I dont enjoy itt enough to run the 5-10 two minute laps required to get 100% complete in GT4.

But do you see me complaining about the possible increase of rally racing in GT5? No.

With so much variety in GT there is going to be some vents that you dont like. Thats just the way things are.

Your fears of PD spending a large amount of time with NASCAR and ovals have no base. Stock cars used in NASCAR are all one shape, the only difference is the paint and decales. Indycars all use the same chassis and body. Again, the only difference is paint and sponsors.

So for PD to add NASCAR and the IRL they had to model just two cars. TWO CARS.
'
Daytona and Indianapolis are extremely bland in scenery, they're almost all asphalt and grandstands yet both offer more then just an oval, Indy has the F1 course and DaYTONA HAS THE FAMOUS 24 HOUR COURSE.

 

[djanikowski]

Alot of Is in that paragraph.
Your fears of PD spending a large amount of time with NASCAR and ovals have no base. Stock cars used in NASCAR are all one shape, the only difference is the paint and decales. Indycars all use the same chassis and body. Again, the only difference is paint and sponsors.

Each manufacturer has a slightly different body style in NASCAR, so its actually 4 different cars.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I dont want multiple ovals where the only difference is the length and degree of banking, and I think most who like oval racing wouldn't either. In fact most who like oval racing hate the "cookie cutter" D shaped ovals that are taking over. They usually produce boring racing and are not as much of a challenge as the other ovals.

Allthough Lausitzring has an exotic shape it is no more unique and in no way more challenging then lets say Darlington or Bristol

Why are you arguing against me? I'm making a case for four distinct ovals, though I think obvious changes in configuration would be more important than the nuances for the casual gamer. The only reason I suggested the Lausitzring is because then we'd get to use the infield as well.

 

[Freeman_Cruz]

Outside of the Nurburgring and Le Mans there is no other track in Gran Turismo that can even begin to compare to Indianapolis or Daytona in terms of prestige. That's the truth. I bring that up for the oval haters who think both courses should not be in GT.
...

What?
Truth for whom?


Suzuka and Monaco are particularly prestigious and talking about possible additions Spa or Silverstone is not far behind.

Is a matter of regions. In Europe and Japan, Daytona would be almost unknow among the public if SEGA had not made an arcade.

Pd: I have to improve my engrish , i know.

 

[MatskiMonk]

What?
Truth for whom?

...

Is a matter of regions.

That I agree with.

It works both ways though. Silverstone isn't that prestigious once you've had to wash and shave in one of their toilet blocks after having slept in the Grandstand!

** it's my local track, I've seen F1 GP once there, never again... but some of the LESS 'prestigious' events... they are classic, like the oft mentioned Britcar24.

 

[arvin charles]

Suzuka and Monaco are particularly prestigious and talking about possible additions Spa or Silverstone is not far behind.

Is a matter of regions. In Europe and Japan, Daytona would be almost unknow among the public if SEGA had not made an arcade.

I'll agree that the Monaco is just as prestigious as the Nuerburgring, La Sarthe, Indy.

I will disagree that Daytona is almost unknown if not for a video game. The Daytona 24h was one of the biggest sports car races along with the Ring & Le Mans. It's only until ISC & Grand Am that some of the prestige has started to wear off when they decided not to let Le Mans Prototypes race there (supposedly in the name of safety).

But back in the old days, Daytona was as important in sports car endurance races as Spa, the Ring & Le Mans.

 

[eSZee]

I thought Silverstone wasn't even liked by most Brits?

 

[MatskiMonk]

I thought Silverstone wasn't even liked by most Brits?

Don't get me started.

It has some pretty major drawbacks, drawbacks that the circuit used to try and wash over by using the tagline "because it's Silverstone"..

for example..

"why do I have to spend £25 per head for camping?"
.... because it's Silverstone

"why do I have to queue for 5 hours on an expensive new piece of Dual carriageway when there still only 1 slip road"
.... because it's Silverstone

"why did I pay £125 to stand on my feet from 7:30 am till 5:00pm to get a crap view of cars speeding past on a dull piece of exposed windy tarmac..?"
.... because it's Silverstone

"why did i ever pay for BGP tickets..."
.... because it's Silverstone, and it's the only track we've got that can host F1 now Bernies scuppered Donnington.


Edit:

I meant to add, that some experiences I've had there were great, but they were in no way related to the fact that the track has alot of heritage, or the layout itself, it's because I've been lucky enough to get decent access to the pits/paddock etc, and the Britcar24 is the MOST underrated race ever...

Oulton Park is the best circuit in the UK for my money.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Super speedway and test course (not for most racing though, just for "like the wind" and testing) is enough ovals. Road courses should dominate.

 

[LSX]

I could probably hear peoples heads exploding from my home if there were more oval tracks than anything else, even if they did include a infield road course. Just the thought is funny. There would be people having a stroke even if there were a 50/50 split of road courses and rovals.

Guys, there is no reason one type of track should dominate another, you're all still going to buy the game regardless. If it's that bad, get on the phone and call PD and complain. There are oval racing series licensed for the game, there will have to be oval tracks to race on, end of story, the world is not ending, your just going to have to make a lot of left turns.

I'm sure no one is losing out here, there will be plenty of everything, there always has been, except for oval racing.

 

[RACECAR]

I still will never understand why people feel "There should be more Road Courses", even while we now have two Licensed Oval racing series.

 

[Joey D]

I still will never understand why people feel "There should be more Road Courses", even while we now have two Licensed Oval racing series.

💡 Because not everyone has the same tastes. It's pretty apparent that more members of GTP want road courses over oval courses. Stop trying to push ovals on people who don't want them.

And this is possible one of the biggest reasons why I can't stand NASCAR, sure I find the racing to be boring but the fans are way over the top when anyone says they don't care for the motorsport.

 

[Northstar]

💡 Because not everyone has the same tastes. It's pretty apparent that more members of GTP want road courses over oval courses. Stop trying to push ovals on people who don't want them.

And this is possible one of the biggest reasons why I can't stand NASCAR, sure I find the racing to be boring but the fans are way over the top when anyone says they don't care for the motorsport.

Possibly because the people who don't care for it also like to mention how they feel it takes little talent as we have seen in this thread.

 

[Joey D]

Possibly because the people who don't care for it also like to mention how they feel it takes little talent.

So we paint everyone with the same brush then? Like I said I find oval racing extremely boring and in a game it doesn't take a whole bunch of talent, especially if I'm good at it. However in real life I doubt any form of motorsport is easy.

The more I read threads like these the less I think of NASCAR in general and the more stereotypes become perpetuated. Which I'll admit is unfair and rather unfortunate since I doubt all NASCAR fans are ignorant rednecks who think it's the ultimate form of auto racing.

 

[LSX]

Joey, come down to Daytona in February, I know I can change your opinion.

I don't think anyone is pushing ovals. It's just that they will be part of the game. I think all five of us Nascar fans are just saying it won't be as bad as it's being made out to be.

 

[Joey D]

Joey, come down to Daytona in February, I know I can change your opinion.

I don't think anyone is pushing ovals. It's just that they will be part of the game. I think all five of us Nascar fans are just saying it won't be as bad as it's being made out to be.

I think after sitting in 20 degree snowy weather for months on end, going to Daytona in Feb. would make me like just about anything.

And not everyone is pushing ovals, that would be an unfair statement, however there are some members that seem to be over pushing the oval argument. GT has always been more about the road course and Grand Touring over oval racing. It makes sense that more people would want to see the game stick to it's roots with that then venture off with oval track racing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The more I read threads like these the less I think of NASCAR in general and the more stereotypes become perpetuated. Which I'll admit is unfair and rather unfortunate since I doubt all NASCAR fans are ignorant rednecks who think it's the ultimate form of auto racing.

I'm not accusing you of this, but that does happen to work both ways, at least most supporters of Ovals in this thread are taking some effort to explain, justify, persuade there preferences, rather than just stating "all ovals are the same", as so may non-NASCAR fans seem to do, which is...

.. rather unfortunate since I doubt all non-NASCAR fans are arrogant elitists who think F1 is the pinnacle of auto racing.... but it's easy to get that vibe sometimes, when one of your favourite forms of motorsport is bashed by people who seemingly only follow money, glamour, and courtroom battles? ... Or, a series that is largely ignored except for one race at a slightly over-rated circuit in France once a year (yes I mean Le Mans)...

** edit: sorry I just re-read that, I hope it makes sense... It's about 4am here and I can't sleep.

For the record... in order of My Own preference..

National/international touring car series
NASCAR
GT/LM
F1
Rally
Other




I don't expect everyone to like NASCAR, but to not give it a fair go in GT is a waste of the license, a waste of disc space, a waste of PD's time and a waste of our money. If they are going to do it, which they ARE, they should do it properly.

 

[Joey D]

... but that does happen to work both ways...

I agree, I find a lot of F1 supporters to be in the same boat as NASCAR supporters. I never really come across other forms of racing supporters in the world so I can't really comment. Honestly though I find F1 to be just as boring as NASCAR.

And for the record I'm a fan of amateur racing, the weekend warrior stuff. I prefer my racing to be done in parking lots around cones and against the clock. I'd actually want PD to give me some sort of autocross course before the addition of either a road course of oval course but game developers seem to be allergic to this idea...which is lame.