pɐǝɹɥʇ lɐᴉɔᴉɟɟoun ǝɥʇ - ɐᴉlɐɹʇsn∀

I have (figuratively) booed people on this thread for being just that, and yet, some of those people have put forward the idea that it's not valid.
I think we are on totally different pages then.

I'm just trying to say my views in the situation while disagreeing with yours. I'm not trying to make you booing me invalid, I'm not even trying to get personal with you.
 
I have (figuratively) booed people on this thread for being just that, and yet, some of those people have put forward the idea that it's not valid.

Then I disagree with them too.

On the other hand, we're in a discussion thread and simply responding with a figurative boo is not generally considered a reasonable response in a discussion. There's no information or reasoning shared in a boo, which is why so many people are having difficulty with your posts. If you're booing people here, I think you're doing it wrong. Generally, we call those people trolls.

A discussion is a pretty different thing to a sportsman in the middle of a field surrounded by fans, and so naturally different standards of behaviour apply. It's hard to have a reasoned discussion from a grandstand, which is why responses tend to devolve to boos or cheers.

If you think that's appropriate here, then nobody is going to get any sensible information out of you. On the other hand, you could try explaining clearly why you think the situation with Adam Goodes was so different to any other situation where a sportsman "communicates" with the crowd and gets booed.

How about this: To you, what exactly was Goodes trying to communicate with his war dance, and what would have been the appropriate response from an opposition crowd that took exception to it?
 
To you, what exactly was Goodes trying to communicate with his war dance
Pride at his indigenous heritage and celebration at having scored a goal.

what would have been the appropriate response from an opposition crowd that took exception to it?
Ignore it. We see athletes perform all manner of victory celebrations all the time - taking their shirts off, performing acrobatics, boxing with the penalty flag, Jorge Lorenzo's astronaut routine, the highly-orchestrsted comedy bits that make highlight reels, and so on and so forth. None of them are subject to the treatment Goodes gets - even in matches with fierce rivalry and strong fanbases, like the Wanderers and the Red and Black Bloc versus Sydney FC and the Cove - but as soon as Goodes introduces his indigenous heritage to his victory routine, it's suddenly fair game.
 
Pride at his indigenous heritage and celebration at having scored a goal.


Ignore it. We see athletes perform all manner of victory celebrations all the time - taking their shirts off, performing acrobatics, boxing with the penalty flag, Jorge Lorenzo's astronaut routine, the highly-orchestrsted comedy bits that make highlight reels, and so on and so forth. None of them are subject to the treatment Goodes gets - even in matches with fierce rivalry and strong fanbases, like the Wanderers and the Red and Black Bloc versus Sydney FC and the Cove - but as soon as Goodes introduces his indigenous heritage to his victory routine, it's suddenly fair game.
There is a difference when you celebrate right infront of the opposing teams fanbase, you will get booed when you do it but it isn't anything real negative. It is just a normal reaction when the opponent rubs their success in your face. Goodes took it too personally because of how he was celebrating (even though it wouldn't make a difference to be booing if he didn't do the indigenous celebration) and made a fuss which led us to here.

It's like in WWE when Roman Reigns celebrated his Royal Rumble win infront of a crowd that absolutely despised him. He got booed like crazy, even more than Adam Goodes did. Even his relative, The Rock came to try to sway the audience into Reigns but that failed.
 
Ignore it.

:rolleyes:

And that is a prime example of victim blaming - "Goodes only has himself to blame because of the way he acts".

You say that the crowd should ignore the player (that they paid money to come and see) or modify their behaviour, but the player should not be expected to ignore the crowd or modify their behaviour.

Can't you see how that's a double standard?

If the players are allowed to be antagonistic to the crowd, as they should be able to within reason, then the crowd should absolutely be able to respond, again within reason.

It's a two way street. If Goodes or any player wants to perform, then the crowd is allowed to share their opinion of that in a reasonable manner. If he doesn't want the crowd to stick their two cents in, don't perform. This is what it means to play professional sport in a public arena. You are on display.

Were he to have been getting belted with rubbish or something, sure, he'd have a legitimate complaint. Boos are nothing, they're the crowd sharing their displeasure in pretty much the mildest way they have access to. If you can't take it, then either don't be provocative or change career to something where you're not a public performer.

None of them are subject to the treatment Goodes gets - even in matches with fierce rivalry and strong fanbases, like the Wanderers and the Red and Black Bloc versus Sydney FC and the Cove - but as soon as Goodes introduces his indigenous heritage to his victory routine, it's suddenly fair game.

How's Kyrgios doing at the moment? He gets booed because he's an :censored:hole.

Most players don't get booed, because most players aren't as publically provocative as Goodes is. But it happens.

Normally, nobody takes any notice. An away player makes a hard mark, you'll hear boos. A ref makes a bad call, you'll hear boos. Life goes on, nobody cares. This could have been the same, except that Goodes chose to take it as a slight against his heritage instead of just part of the game, and part of being a professional sportsman.

A sportsman that can't shrug off a few boos isn't much of a professional, IMO.

You're a teacher. I'm sure you don't have a little cry every time some student says something mean about your classes. It's part of the package, the kids are expected to keep it to a reasonable minimum but at the same time sometimes you just have to suck it up and carry on. If a kid is rude about your class on Aboriginal History maybe it's because he's a wee racist, but without further evidence you should probably just assume that it's because he's a kid and he doesn't like your class.
 
If the players are allowed to be antagonistic to the crowd, as they should be able to within reason,
Only if you assume that they're deliberately being antagonistic. Do you know where all of thise Collingwood supporters sit? Behind the Collingwood goals. So what is Goodes supposed to do - stop play to run to the opposing end of the pitch to celebrate, then run back to position so play can resume?

then the crowd should absolutely be able to respond, again within reason.
And booing him because of his indigenous heritage is not within reason.

How's Kyrgios doing at the moment? He gets booed because he's an :censored:hole.
There is no fine line between Goodes and Kyrgios. Given what Kyrgios did to Wawrinka, there is a Berlin Wall between him and Goodes.

You're a teacher. I'm sure you don't have a little cry every time some student says something mean about your classes.
I teach in a school with some pretty high academic outcomes, so students rarely complain about any of the staff.

If a kid is rude about your class on Aboriginal History maybe it's because he's a wee racist, but without further evidence you should probably just assume that it's because he's a kid and he doesn't like your class.
No, there's a whole pattern of behind-the-scenes stuff that I do before deciding a course of action. Students may get the benefit of the doubt for isolated incidents, but that doesn't mean that the incidents go ignored or unaddressed. Because over time, a pattern starts to emerge. And in the case of Adam Goodes, that pattern was established eighteen months ago when Collingwood supporters booed him every time he scored - and Goodes wasn't doing his war dance. The latest incidents are just an extension of that.
 
Only if you assume that they're deliberately being antagonistic. Do you know where all of thise Collingwood supporters sit? Behind the Collingwood goals. So what is Goodes supposed to do - stop play to run to the opposing end of the pitch to celebrate, then run back to position so play can resume?

He could've just not do it right in front of the opposing teams face. He was literally heading towards them when he did it. Which is pretty much being antagonistic to the opposing teams fans, so the fans reacted like they normally would and boo.
 
He could've just not do it right in front of the opposing teams face. He was literally heading towards them when he did it. Which is pretty much being antagonistic to the opposing teams fans, so the fans reacted like they normally would and boo.
Justify it however you want - you're still blaming the victim. And every time you do it, you just dig yourself deeper.
 
Another parallel that might be worth considering :

The All Black's perform their ancestral war dance before rugby internationals and are admired.

Goodes performs an ancestral tribal act in a match and is booed and told by certain section to go to the zoo.

I have no issue with people being booed, but IMO this instance had racial undertones, which is undeniable.

I'd also like to add that I despise Kyrgios like I have never despised a sportsman before.
 
Goodes performs an ancestral tribal act in a match and is booed and told by certain section to go to the zoo.
I won't deny that there is some people who boo who are racist but that isn't anything new.

I think it's the fact that people didn't like Adam Goodes to begin with because to most, he is a jerk and when he went to the tribal act right in front of the opposing teams fans. They shot back like most sports people do. Adam Goodes, like he always does; uses the race card and we end up having debates about racism.
 
Don't have a dog in this fight, but wanted to address one thing:

RESHIRAM5 abandoned all pretense of "criticism is okay if you can justify it as something other than racism" and went straight to "if Goodes didn't want to be criticised, then he should have done it", where "it" is celebrate his indigenous heritage.

Reading @RESHIRAM5 's posts both before and after this, I'm not seeing how the "it" he referred to is "celebrating Goodes' heritage" - rather that seems, in my view, to refer to his opinion that Goodes is being a douche/right eejit/whatever. I don't know whether that's the case or not, but looks like @Imari has explained very well why that's valid booing reasoning.

So given that (or maybe even regardless of that), this:

You are a racist.

I'm a bit staggered that anyone would publicly and directly make what I'd consider to be quite a serious accusation. Apart from not seeming terribly AUP-worthy it's just disappointing to see in what has been for the most part a respectful and interesting discussion to read.
 
And the whole idea of "booing for legitimate reasons" is completely hollow because everyone will make it regardless of whether their reasons are "legitimate" or not. For some reason, people seem to have gotten it into their heads that it's okay to voice the opinion so long as they justify it. It doesn't even have to be an actual justification - telling themselves "yes, I'm justified" seems to be enough. And as pathetic as some of these justifications are, the target of the abuse is expected to simply accept it, and if they have a problem with it, then it's their fault for bringing it on themselves in the first place. It's completely disgusting and indefensible.

I'm a bit staggered that anyone would publicly and directly make what I'd consider to be quite a serious accusation.
If a woman is assaulted and then blamed for it, it's a form of sexism. If an indigenous person is abused abd then blamed for it, it is racism. RESHIRAM5 abandoned the stance that his criticism of Goodes was justified, and blatantly stated that he brought it on himself. He blamed the victim, and is therefore racist.
 
If an indigenous person is abused abd then blamed for it, it is racism.

There's one thing missing from this: If an indigenous person is abused because they're indigenous, it is racism. If an indigenous person is blamed because they're indigenous, it is racism.

Without that one important ingredient, it's not racism. It's just people being dicks.

Otherwise every bad thing that happens to an indigenous person is racism. And while they have historically been screwed in a lot of ways and continue to be screwed in a lot of ways, not everything that happens to an indigenous person is racism.

The same applies to sexual assault and blaming women for it. If she's blamed because she's a woman, that's sexism. If she's blamed just because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time or whatever, that's plain vanilla victim blaming. It's worthwhile not getting the two mixed up. They are not the same.

He blamed the victim, and is therefore racist.

He blamed the victim for continually putting himself in the same situation. No reference to race. Depending on the situation, the victim blaming may have merit (why continue going swimming with sharks?) or may be unjustified (she was asking for it with that low-cut top).

I don't think you quite grasp the difference between racism and just general bad stuff happening to someone who happens to be indigenous. You're not an idiot, so if you haven't grasped it by now I'm assuming it's on purpose. So I think I'm going to step out of this argument. It's not going to go anywhere pretty as long as you keep trying to broaden the definition of racism in this way just so that you can be right.

Personally, I don't think it helps anyone to label all this non-race related stuff as racism, it dilutes the real racist problems that still need addressing in 2015. But whatever, you get on your soapbox and do your thing.
 
He blamed the victim for continually putting himself in the same situation. No reference to race.
I fail to see how you can justify it has having "no reference to race", given that the situation he blamed Goodes for repeatedly putting himself into was a celebration of his indigenous heritage and therefore intrinsically linked to race.

I don't think you quite grasp the difference between racism and just general bad stuff happening to someone who happens to be indigenous.
Oh, I do grasp the difference. And in this case, I am fully convinced that Goodes has not been abused "for acting like a douche", but because of his indigenous background.
 
I fail to see how you can justify it has having "no reference to race", given that the situation he blamed Goodes for repeatedly putting himself into was a celebration of his indigenous heritage and therefore intrinsically linked to race.


Oh, I do grasp the difference. And in this case, I am fully convinced that Goodes has not been abused "for acting like a douche", but because of his indigenous background.
I'm not talking about How he Celebrated but Who he was Celebrating to. As you can see him purposely going up and antagonising the opposing fans. I'm not saying you can or cannot antagonize the crowd but not expecting to be Booed is very ignorant.

I think you are only looking at What has occurred (Which was people who are booing a man who happened to black after a traditional celebration) instead of Why it occurred and just filled in the blanks like Goodes does and use the Race Card.
 
I'm not saying you can or cannot antagonize the crowd but not expecting to be Booed is very ignorant.
It doesn't happen in any other sport. I have been to plenty of Wanderers games and I have never heard it. There might be isolated incidents of it, sure, but do you know how many people need to be booing for it to be audible? Lots.

So if it's perfectly acceptable for the crowd to boo, why is it that it only happens in the AFL and it's only directed at Adam Goodes? "Antagonising the crowd" is a pretty poor excuse.
 
It doesn't happen in any other sport. I have been to plenty of Wanderers games and I have never heard it. There might be isolated incidents of it, sure, but do you know how many people need to be booing for it to be audible? Lots.

So if it's perfectly acceptable for the crowd to boo, why is it that it only happens in the AFL and it's only directed at Adam Goodes? "Antagonising the crowd" is a pretty poor excuse.
From someone who watches WWE, I can tell you that it happens and mostly happens when the guy is seen as either overrated or a douche to some people

Roman Reigns Victory in the Royal Rumble. He wasn't even the villain and was meant to be the main babyface. He was seen as Overrated and so, when he Celebrated, the Boos were intense and lasted all the way into Wrestlemania which according to some who were there, was actually deafening.

Since Adam Goodes got so high and even won Australian of the Year, there is bound to be people who disprove that decision (hell, even I don't think any celebraty deserves it) and see him as overrated or a douche so when he went off to celebrate right in front of the people with that mind set, he, like everybody else if they were in the same situation got booed.

But going off and using other sports which aren't as big in certain areas as examples is rather redundant as each sport has different fanbases. Sports like AFL have way more Vocal fans than A-League in Australia, even if their fans can get aggressive.
 
All of this talk, I now have a hankering for some "Australians are uneducated" inspired "Hadleeeeeee's a waaaaaanker" chants from the eighties.

Unfortunately I've only found the staccato version on Youtube........... Booooooo!!
 
Yes, it does, because WWE scripts everything, right down to the personalities of the actors playing the roles.
A little bit True, the "actors" have to make sure that they are entertaining to the audience so they get pushed higher and main event things by the WWE but like other sports WWE can make poor decisions on who to promote

Kinda like how People don't like Roman Reigns getting a Push so Soon and thinking he didn't deserve to main event. The People don't like the AFL/Sydney Swans for shoving Adam Goodes down a throats when people think he doesn't deserve it. Attitude also comes to play with both too, when people don't like a Wrestler because the Wrestler, outside of WWE is a douche just like how People see Adam Goodes as a Douche.

WWE isn't so Black and White with AFL.
 
Oh, I do grasp the difference. And in this case, I am fully convinced that Goodes has not been abused "for acting like a douche", but because of his indigenous background.

It seems you are only 25% correct about everyone being racist http://www.gq.com.au/fitness/sport/75+of+goodes+social+media+commentary+is+negative,38161

According to statistics provided by Meltwater Outside Insight over the last month on social media, there has been 14,259 total conversations about Adam Goodes.

Of that, 3,638 were about race and racism, which equates to 25%.
 
I don't even know how people wanted Abbot in power, in the first place.
Because they lost confidence in Labor following the carbon tax (though bear in mind when he was in opposition, he blocked an Emissions Trading Scheme, knowing that it would force Gillard to introduce the carbon tax). That was Abbott's fundamental error; he assumed that people voted for him because they wanted a Liberal government when they really voted for him because he was the lesser evil. Too much of his political energy has been spent demonising his opponents, which might be effective in the short term, but is unsustainable in the long. His government has the single worst track record for passing legislation in our history, and he has achieved nothing of note since repealing the carbon tax. Under his watch, we abuse asylum seekers, target the Muslim community as a threat to national security, force the weak and vulnerable to shoulder the burden of the budget while the rich get generous offsets, abuse the Royal Commission system to target political opponents, insist that Coal Is The Only Future, have had a speaker who was blatantly and brazenly biased, and have pissed the likes of Indonesia and Russia for no good reason. And all the while we get the catch phrases of "we're a good, responsible government" and "it's Labor's fault!" rammed down our throats at every opportunity. It probably doesn't help that the cabinet is full of the most unlikeable personalities in Morrison, Pyne, Dutton and Bronwyn Bishop.

Abbott is the epitome of everything that is wrong with conservatives: a born-to-rule mentality that is blind to his own faults, but immediately calls on "protecting our way of life!" to shore up support.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Abbott keep the leadership - the Liberals deserved to get slaughtered at the next election.
 
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