PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Sven Jurgens]

Yes. For me online racing is more fun if rules re contact do not allow jostling or light rubs or any bumping or nudging.
I know minor contact door rubs etc are unpunished in most real racing but online is different.
No one wants to play online if some arcade gamer can fly across the grass, smash you into a spin and continue unpunished.
The current system is a step in the right direction.
I dunno if anyone has tried a Supra cup race but I tried one before this newest version and concluded never again. Complete circus/meme fest.

The system as released was by far the best.
It was simple. Contact another driver?
You get sr down or penalty PERIOD.
I think the reason they don’t make the system more strict is because a large majority wouldn’t play anymore.
Also races for many players would be too boring.
Jmo but online is different from real. It needs to be much more strict than real to work, especially with ping pong contact physics.
The more contact you allow the more gamers will take advantage.

Too many contacts within a certain time?
DQ. Follow a DQ with a time out. Say 12 hours no access to sport mode or deny access to FIA racing.
Or no DQ only match at E hehe.
At release they had it right but the community spoke out, and ever since than it’s been a roller coaster of various iterations.
It says right in the sportsmanship video that racing is a non contact sport SO DONT ALLOW CONTACT LOL

For Sony and PD this is a flagship product.
From what I’ve seen so far this latest system revision is a solid step in the right direction.
I’ve seen a lot of complaints and people having to change their ways due to sr downs. Imo this is a good thing.

Guys like this are changing their behavior...A good sign.

I largely agree with you however the system at release was only fine the first month or two when the serious racers, early adopters were playing. The heavy penalties came later after online turned into a wreck fest during the start of the next year. That super strict system cleaned things up but got a lot of complaints from the top players, 'rubbing is racing', and from there it has never gotten any better. (It was abused by top players too however, lifting off mid corner to get the car following to slightly make contact and receive 10 sec penalty. Shared blame would solve that)

 

[afc5150]

I gotta say after losing 57 SR last night in FIA racing (for relatively minor contact, except one instance) and taking 12 Daily B races at Nurburgring to regain it all is a pretty big deterrent for those habitually dirty drivers who come to A/S lobbies in FIA and wreak havok only to farm back the SR in time for the next round.

 

[Redneckchef]

As someone who got a reset this week from 99 SR to 13 in 1 race A I would chime in on the system. Having tougher penalties is fine. Having them applied for almost all contact is fine with me. People will learn.

The negative for me is that PD is still trying to assign blame when handing these things out, even the SR downs. I reviewed my race where I engaged with the driver who was tapping me silly and for the life of me it was hard to sort out how I got a reset and the other player got a Blue S. When they gave side contact from the inside I got an SR down. I give side contact from the inside, I get an SR down again? I am tapped in the rear as they get a better exit, Sr down for me. I tap them as I get a better exit? SR down for me.

This is the problem. Definitive penalties handed out completely irrationally and with no consistency. That the other driver was a DR B driver at the time and I was a DR A should have no bearing on the assignment of blame. While I said in my original rant after the fact, I did engage them, but only by taking an aggressive inside line at paddock hill. They did this to me on lap 1, I got an SR down. I do it on lap 2 and get a penalty as well as an SR down. Same situation, handled differently to punish me.

I did earn 1 penalty through a mistake where I punted the driver, but that was the only 1 in the while race I think was fairly earned according to the rules as they were demonstrated in turn 1.

Get rid of assigning blame so that there isn't a gaming of the system. I used to be horribly against this but as these things continue to crop up I am further and further in the camp that this is the best solution.

And just had a race A where the winner pushed me wide 3 times, pushed the leader off track and won with a blue S. Penalties? I got a 0.5 track limit for getting pushed wide.

 

[djidane57]

Yes. For me online racing is more fun if rules re contact do not allow jostling or light rubs or any bumping or nudging.
I know minor contact door rubs etc are unpunished in most real racing but online is different.

the game calls itself "real driving simulator" , dont you think that means it should get as close as possible to real racing? Game should allow light contact because it does a crap job at assigning blame

 

[Groundfish]

he game calls itself "real driving simulator" , dont you think that means it should get as close as possible to real racing?

No. It should make gameplay as fair as possible.

#sharedfault

 

[Sven Jurgens]

the game calls itself "real driving simulator" , dont you think that means it should get as close as possible to real racing? Game should allow light contact because it does a crap job at assigning blame

Real racing doesn't have lag resulting in ping pong physics...

You cannot drive door to door with internet latency/jitter involved. At some point someone gets shoved. It happened to me today. A dare devil wanted to go side by side, door to door, with me at Flugplatz, him on my outside. We both kept our line / side of the road yet in the middle a little lag wobble send him flying off and gave me a 3 sec penalty. We both had green bars at the time, still jitter can happen at any moment.

Better to assign SR Down for any contact to both cars to discourage door to door racing in an environment that's simply not suited for that.

 

[Natalie_GT]

Real racing doesn't have lag resulting in ping pong physics...

You cannot drive door to door with internet latency/jitter involved. At some point someone gets shoved. It happened to me today. A dare devil wanted to go side by side, door to door, with me at Flugplatz, him on my outside. We both kept our line / side of the road yet in the middle a little lag wobble send him flying off and gave me a 3 sec penalty. We both had green bars at the time, still jitter can happen at any moment.

Better to assign SR Down for any contact to both cars to discourage door to door racing in an environment that's simply not suited for that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. So many people are careless into corners, and, in my opinion, I can respect their attempts. Most drivers online seem to get those stars in their eyes and as soon as they see that the gap to the driver in front starts coming down, they start pushing and sticking their noses to pass where it's absolutely impossible (i.e. most of the Nordschleife).

Shared fault would be quite a good idea, as since it directly discourages people to battle too much in fear of getting penalties and SR deductions, it indirectly makes them more careful drivers; only going for moves that they are 90% sure will work unless the other driver does something stupid, instead of going for moves that they are 10% sure about.

I've seen so many people trying to overtake on the OUTSIDE of the four consecutive left handers on Race C this week that I'm honestly not even sure what they were thinking. Then they quit when they spin into the grass and lose a bunch of places. What were you expecting?

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Better to assign SR Down for any contact to both cars to discourage door to door racing in an environment that's simply not suited for that.

If all contact is going to be punished we may as well be driving ghost cars or entering time trials, touches happen in any race (even F1 where the cars are made from tissue paper). Most of the contact in sport mode is fine and costs neither car any time at all until a random red plus x seconds is thrown at you.

No. It should make gameplay as fair as possible.

#sharedfault

Shared fault means an entirely innocent player gets punished for somebody elses bad driving, when they go and get revenge (let's face it most would) others are usually taken as collateral damage. A lenient system is best, it takes a while to know who you can and can't trust but once that's been done it polices itself well.

and sticking their noses to pass where it's absolutely impossible (i.e. most of the Nordschleife).

You have raced in DRWF, you should know that everywhere is an overtaking opportunity if you try hard enough!

 

[Groundfish]

Shared fault means an entirely innocent player gets punished for somebody elses bad driving

Yes but when one player wants to get ahead and they run on the grass and spin someone off the track and continue they will be penalized appropriately.
Over a bit of time drivers who can’t keep it on track will no longer play against those who can.
There’s a reason both ACC and iracing use #Sharedfault
It is the most fair way. It motivates all players to play properly instead of running off the track banging off the wall and taking people out.
Assigning blame will never work. As soon as gamers figure it the rule out they game it.
That’s what gamers do.
You can’t rely on just hoping those in your lobby are racers who try to do things right when most are just gamers anyways.
Gamers do anything allowed to win.
So DONT ALLOW CONTACT

#sharedfault

 

[Sven Jurgens]

If all contact is going to be punished we may as well be driving ghost cars or entering time trials, touches happen in any race (even F1 where the cars are made from tissue paper). Most of the contact in sport mode is fine and costs neither car any time at all until a random red plus x seconds is thrown at you.

Shared fault means an entirely innocent player gets punished for somebody elses bad driving, when they go and get revenge (let's face it most would) others are usually taken as collateral damage. A lenient system is best, it takes a while to know who you can and can't trust but once that's been done it polices itself well.
You have raced in DRWF, you should know that everywhere is an overtaking opportunity if you try hard enough!

Nah just keep a foot or two between cars, keep a safety margin, no need to touch. And if it inevitably happens anyway, it will less likely result in something bad happening. It shouldn't be -10 SR for any touch, but a warning and small SR deduction, yes. You can race and overtake without contact.

What we have now is that more often the innocent player gets punished or nothing happens. And sorry, it does not police itself well anywhere you are not driving with people you know. The current system works (sort of) for the top 1% fast players that all have to live with each other week after week. It does not work for the other 99%.

 

[Tea_Leaves]

The more I race Competizione online, the more a return to shared blame makes sense. Drivers I've raced against are more cautious and less likely to pull off ambiguous moves or 'Senna' style racing for the gaps BS because they know they'll be penalized. Meanwhile in GTS, there's a notion of 'I might as well try making this ridiculous pass, I might not be given a penalty or the other driver will instead'.

There's a reason many other racing games use it, because it works. However PD have never shown interest returning to it because a drop in player numbers could follow by deterring the Wreckfest or 'gamers' crowd away.

They serve no purpose as a deterrent to those playing dirty, and only give them easier competition to harass.

91 wins trophy adds more fuel to this fire.

 

[mjkwrx]

Really getting fed up with gt online and this penalty system. Twice in the one group 2 race someone hits someone who then hits me and they go off the track yet I am the one who gets the penalty and the others get off with nothing. Screws up my sr back to e which will mean more wacky races with people who think there in a demolition derby

 

[djidane57]

Yes but when one player wants to get ahead and they run on the grass and spin someone off the track and continue they will be penalized appropriately.
Over a bit of time drivers who can’t keep it on track will no longer play against those who can.
There’s a reason both ACC and iracing use #Sharedfault
It is the most fair way. It motivates all players to play properly instead of running off the track banging off the wall and taking people out.
Assigning blame will never work. As soon as gamers figure it the rule out they game it.
That’s what gamers do.
You can’t rely on just hoping those in your lobby are racers who try to do things right when most are just gamers anyways.
Gamers do anything allowed to win.
So DONT ALLOW CONTACT

#sharedfault

i would love to watch you race to witness how good you are at avoiding contacts

 

[RacingGrandpa]

i would love to watch you race to witness how good you are at avoiding contacts

He has several replays shared in game. Do a search in discovery.

 

[Groundfish]

i would love to watch you race to witness how good you are at avoiding contacts

Tbh I probably post too much, but I’ve put up my stats. I understand most players aren’t going to read Ross Bentley and others. They aren’t going to study real racing, they don’t have even much experience driving real cars in some cases. Most players probably don’t drive on a wheel or fabricate their own wheelstand to use etc. For sure most players aren’t lucky enough to have access to load cell pedals at a reasonable price. I play on a nice wheel I ran across used at a good price. I use a pretty big screen bc I already had a 50 inch display.
Not many have a nice enough setup to make cockpit view feasible. Even with all these advantages I’ll never be the cream of the crop even on the weaker NA server.
I’m solid top 1 percent of it though and have been for quite a while. GTS was my first driving game since ridge racer in about 94.
So I’m not the typical user, but I worked my way through all the levels etc to the A plus by application of the real world principles that I studied.
I’m not ever going to get into the look at me side on you tube or streaming etc. I enjoy driving games a ton though and play them because of that. I’ve no interest in going past where I am right now, it’s way too much time I don’t have, and past a certain amount of playtime it loses the fun aspect for me. I’ve hit top tens and once in a while am a filler guy in strong rooms. I like that, kinda thrilling to dawdle around with top players battling it out at the front...
That said I do share replays in game and photos and stuff, I am bad about harping on the things I like that others hate like tcs lol. I kind of like putting up good times in a way most people don’t do...
So, all that said, I’ve put a ton of thought and effort into the game and feel I have a good handle on what’s possible.

Bottom line is in the rooms I race the pen system determines what many players do.
As I said before, at this level no system at all can even work because self policing.
But @Sven Jurgens nailed it along with others.
It’s the 99 percent that really is affected most by incorrect blame.
Players who want to race should be able to without getting gamed and matched up with people who bash into them.
Really everything that’s been said of late in here has been spot on. Shared fault works and it’s fair.

#sharedfault

 

[djidane57]

Why is contact between different DR ranks always in favor of the lowest DR still a thing? I've been divebombed at the nurb chicane (i mean a the kind of divebomb from so far away i couldnt see it on my radar until the last moment), forcing me to cut it and somehow i get the 3sec penalty for "pushing another car off track"

 

[hardvibes]

I played online for the first time in over a year
And...
My god...The penalty system is just awful.

I just got pushed on Race A (Laguna Seca), trying to stay on track, braking, trying not beump into other cars and I received a 4 seconds penalty.
4 seconds.
Me.
What the hell is wrong with PD? They didn't implement it a month ago. Should have been top notch by now.
At least the one they started testing with Forza 7 is working, even if it's not perfect.

I don't see if being fixed in GT7.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@Groundfish I raced all day after qualifying on Sunday and I don't know what's going on but matchmaking was poor all day long. I checked KP for how many qualified for the Nord 5,335 players, down from 7,505 in April yet still up from 3,210 players in December for the Nordschleife.

April had epic competition and December had very good competition. This week's matchmaking was just poor and I never saw most of those that qualified, me racing all week morning and night. Is the penalty system turning this game into a time trial? The best competition and matchmaking was when the penalty system was turned off in April, this week was a proverbial ghost town on the Nord. First time I actually kept seeing the same people in repeat rooms in low SR.

Here are some samples of the grids I encountered yesterday in SR.S (times in EST)

The most competitive room of the day

Pretty much the standard room throughout the day

Prime time

Has PD killed racing, or is hardly anybody interested in racing on the Nordschleife anymore

I'm glad I didn't qualify for the first 6 days because tbh yesterday got a bit boring, repetitive start 2nd, finish 2nd, zero interaction on the track. On to the next time trial hoping to finally encounter someone in my speed range. The best races were those where I got rammed off at the start or crashed myself so I could make my way back to my starting position

Anyway just my observations from last week. I had tons of fun, added a couple new people to my friend's list, disrupted the fun of some nasty individuals and had countless great clean passes and side by side action. Had I qualified early in the week I probably wouldn't have lasted I guess I should thank the penalty system to send me down to get better matchmaking

 

[Groundfish]

@Groundfish I raced all day after qualifying on Sunday and I don't know what's going on but matchmaking was poor all day long. I checked KP for how many qualified for the Nord 5,335 players, down from 7,505 in April yet still up from 3,210 players in December for the Nordschleife.

Looks like it does turn into a time trial for ya after qual at Nord.
I guess most people were like me...Last time this track was up I’m pretty sure it was a naturally aspirated 911? (Could be wrong) anyways I ran some quals and kinda got goaded into a few entries.
I did ok only got smashed once, the no qual didn’t get me haha, but this car with the turbo I would say was even more ornery than the last one. I’m not a Nord kinda guy, but you’d think there’d be all kinds of people who love it gettin in there Porsche plus ring???
I don’t think I saw one full A room even you put up, too risky for people I guess, not much interest plus I think a lot of folks switch to FIA only once they rank up a bit because less sr down risk.
I bet if it was a c race with a bit of strategy you would have had more competition.
I know tho there’s definitely a group in mid sr on NA that’s decently quick...

 

[RacingGrandpa]

It's just a hard combo, a lot of those that qualify is likely only running a few races then are intimidated from going again.

 

[djidane57]

a perfect race B grants you 6 SR while a single SR down makes you lose 10 SR points

 

[Tea_Leaves]

That's a problem with short sprint races, little SR to gain and more to lose. If PD doubled laps (offsetting one SR down), time would still be left over and it reduces waiting between races. Race A, I got SR down because a car in front lost control, slid across my path and my bump (I simply couldn't react in time) saved him from flying off the track. If the system could check car orientation and steering input before an incident, it could help determine blame.

Why is contact between different DR ranks always in favor of the lowest DR still a thing? I've been divebombed at the nurb chicane (i mean a the kind of divebomb from so far away i couldnt see it on my radar until the last moment), forcing me to cut it and somehow i get the 3sec penalty for "pushing another car off track"

Didn't you know? You're supposed to teach randoms at a DR letter below to not bomb you via lobby text chat before a race starts. You can expect contact-free racing with your peers after. Failure to do so will result in them dive-bombing and the system assigning you the penalty.

 

[golfer07840]

@Groundfish I raced all day after qualifying on Sunday and I don't know what's going on but matchmaking was poor all day long. I checked KP for how many qualified for the Nord 5,335 players, down from 7,505 in April yet still up from 3,210 players in December for the Nordschleife.

April had epic competition and December had very good competition. This week's matchmaking was just poor and I never saw most of those that qualified, me racing all week morning and night. Is the penalty system turning this game into a time trial? The best competition and matchmaking was when the penalty system was turned off in April, this week was a proverbial ghost town on the Nord. First time I actually kept seeing the same people in repeat rooms in low SR.

Here are some samples of the grids I encountered yesterday in SR.S (times in EST)

The most competitive room of the day

Pretty much the standard room throughout the day

Prime time

Has PD killed racing, or is hardly anybody interested in racing on the Nordschleife anymore

I'm glad I didn't qualify for the first 6 days because tbh yesterday got a bit boring, repetitive start 2nd, finish 2nd, zero interaction on the track. On to the next time trial hoping to finally encounter someone in my speed range. The best races were those where I got rammed off at the start or crashed myself so I could make my way back to my starting position

Anyway just my observations from last week. I had tons of fun, added a couple new people to my friend's list, disrupted the fun of some nasty individuals and had countless great clean passes and side by side action. Had I qualified early in the week I probably wouldn't have lasted I guess I should thank the penalty system to send me down to get better matchmaking

I think it was the combo of that barely driveable car on HARDS (Why??? Why???!!!) And the track. If it were gr4 or a more controllable car, would have been better matchmaking, IMO

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I think it was the combo of that barely driveable car on HARDS (Why??? Why???!!!) And the track. If it were gr4 or a more controllable car, would have been better matchmaking, IMO

PD seems to have a fetish with sports tires on that track. We've had N100, N200, N300 and N400 only on the Nord daily B races, all on sports tires, all with cars that like to slide and spin. Perhaps it's the time constraints, aiming for an 8 to 9 minute race. A GR.3 race would be over fast in one lap, but slightly too long for 2 laps. Still one lap N24 GR.3 would work. (Or GR.1 )

Next it should be back as a C race, hopefully N24 with GR.3, but PD has done Nord 2 laps before as race C in April N400. Still hoping for a GR.1 race on N24 daily C, might even work with 3 laps.

I checked my old stats, we've had GR.1 on Nordschleife before when we still had daily races. Interestingly it was the only combo with overall positive SR on that track (others recorded then were GR.4, N400 and N500) N24 has only had GR.3 and GR.4, both also negative SR on avg. Mount Panorama has had GR.2 once before, also the only combo there with avg positive SR.

The weekly race selections are so unimaginative nowadays

 

[05XR8]

Are the PZs a good idea or is an autodrive anywhere or stop and reset, alternatives?

PZ:
- at least players know where they are.
- players can choose to move out the way and the players behind, pretty much, have a clear view of who is where.
- allows players the chance to comeback after serving a penalty

Autodrive anywhere:
- sometimes, players get a penalty on the last lap or near the finish line with a 1s or more penalty. Sometimes changing the outcome of a close race. Sometimes benefitting someone with the penalty.

Auto drive anywhere, might change some of those outcomes once the penalty is assigned. Players used to choose when to slow for the penalty. Handing the penalty straightaway with autodrive, just about eliminates guess work of the outcome. Some players have been handed penalties, meters from the finish line. That's still something PD need to work out.

Stop and reset:
- I would never want this. However, making a point about anyway.

This could stop the usual dirty drivers dead in their tracks. It also causes grief for the innocent. We all know the lightest of touches trigger some penalties. It would cause someone to throw their controller or shut off the game when handed a Stop and reset just before the line or at a fast track like BMB.

It may seem like more harm than good, but a Stop and rest just might calm down the ones that try to ruin others races.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Penalty zones suck and are often the cause of secondary incidents. Mandatory pit drive through or take them to the end in the last lap. If you ignore the mandatory pit drive through, disqualified, thrown out of the race. All tracks have perfectly functional penalty zones already, the pit straights, use them.

There are exceptions like the Nordschleife which is too long for multiple laps. Just take it to the end, but add 3 to 5 strikes and you're out to stop griefing. 5 incidents in a race should be DQ, then 4, then 3 until you start behaving. Then the counter can go up again. However for that to work PD needs to distinguish between harmless front back contact and brake checking / punting. It should be a simple case of setting a speed difference threshold.

Bring Disqualification back, but in a more sensible way (as opposed to draft bumping people out of the race)

 

[racer_xis]

its not a piece of ****, its a whole bag full of ****
peiple are divebombing from 50meters behund on nurb turn 1 and the game keeps punishing me with 2, 3 or 4 seconds, unbelievable

 

[Tea_Leaves]

Penalty zones suck and are often the cause of secondary incidents. Mandatory pit drive through or take them to the end in the last lap.

Yep, more akin to real racing that way. You're not a hazard and no need to use ghosting apart from exiting the pit. Not to mention many penalty zones are in illogical places. Some are placed near braking zones so it reduces your penalty time and could cause an incident with speed differences and unghosting around other cars.

Although I could see an argument for having to drive all the way up to the pits (some are far away from the track or placed awkwardly like Spa's) to serve a 0.5 sec track penalty.

Problem is, it makes the game less simcade. PD don't want that.

 

[Natalie_GT]

I for one do like the carry-it-to-the-end idea more than the penalty zones, stop and go's and such. With penalty zones being so awkwardly and infuriatingly placed in some tracks, a .5 second penalty can turn, artificially, into a 1.5 second penalty just because of where the penalty zone is.

Take Spa for example. Penalty zone? Right after Raidillon. Smacked in the middle of the very important straight. Even a .5 second penalty can drop you a LOT more than just .5 seconds and bring people into contention that even with the penalty technically shouldn't be able to be fighting for your position. Plus it can cause accidents, since most Gr.3 cars for example are going through the straight at 250km/h + at the very least, and then those drivers have to get surprised with, let's say, 2 or 3 cars serving penalties because of track limits or something. Those cars aren't going 250km/h+, they're going like, what, 100km/h? I think that's what you get slowed down to? And it's hardly reasonable, the auto-drive doesn't decelerate you gradually but instead slams on the brakes taking away a lot of momentum. I speak from experience in Spa .

If you let people take it to the end, the penalty will have it's effect on the driver it's applied and that driver only. No more (causing accidents, slowing someone down more than intended etc.), and no less (not letting you burn it at the finish line like you can in lobbies).

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Yep, more akin to real racing that way. You're not a hazard and no need to use ghosting apart from exiting the pit. Not to mention many penalty zones are in illogical places. Some are placed near braking zones so it reduces your penalty time and could cause an incident with speed differences and unghosting around other cars.

Although I could see an argument for having to drive all the way up to the pits (some are far away from the track or placed awkwardly like Spa's) to serve a 0.5 sec track penalty.

Problem is, it makes the game less simcade. PD don't want that.

It could be a minimum before having to pit. Depending on the track, the time you lose from an optimal drive through without further slowing would be the minimum time before having to pit. Or make it the same for all tracks, less than 5 seconds, not mandatory, allowed to carry it to the end. (Or serve automatically when making a pit stop anyway)

This is also much easier to balance than all the penalty zones in different places. For example the 3 different penalty zones at Sarthe have completely different effects on how much time you actually lose per penalty amount.

Also, stop with the rounding up at the finish, what logic is behind that?