PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[VFOURMAX1]

I have read up on iRacing's systems but haven't experienced them. People complain about it as well I think if PD limited DR letter to going no higher than SR letter (in all cases), it would be enough of an approximation of a 'division' (probably useful for for matchmaking purposes). The simplified structure of PD's rating systems seem appropriate for GTS, IMO. iRacing's SR gains are scaled by division and a curve, somewhat similar to what I've suggested except that my method is much simpler.

What I'm trying to convince and others of isn't that other ideas don't have merit, just that an awful lot of what you guys want could be achieved with a better SR system!

As far as iracing I as well only know what I have read and what I saw when I was looking at that being a racing option. Upon looking at the service overall I felt the expense was above a level I wanted to pay.

The main place I think that both SR and DR fall extremely short to be used for the purpose of matchmaking is it does not take a persons experience or skill level into account for different circuits and for this reason I think this will be a weakness that neither ranking system can really overcome.

I know I have some tracks that I know, have both practiced and raced a lot of laps on and can be consistent with lap times across a full race distance that will be within a reasonable close level to my Q time without any incidents if I do not do something stupid.
Those tracks a ranking system could very well do a reasonable level of matchmaking my skill level.

Personally I do not attempt to race online on a circuit or with a car or circuit combination that I feel I do not know or have a fair amount of laps of practice with.
There are many out there that do not adhere to this method and a daily can well be a learn as you go deal, so what if you miss the braking point and use a competitors car as a berm to stay on track.

An example would be I do not like the Tokyo style street tracks and do not go on them at all.

But if I were to enter a daily race that featured that Tokyo circuit and used a Ferarri a car I have not used at all as generally I do not prefer the driving traits of most MR drive train cars.

Please explain to me how either a SR or DR ranking system would place me within a race where I would be racing others of my same skill level rather than place me in a race where if I was trying to keep up the pace of my DR ranking I would likely be causing carnage in the first laps of the race anyway?

Personally I would never enter a daily race on a course I did not know or even enter a race with a car I had not at least learned some of its handling tendencies.

I like to think of the game as a racing experience and as such feel I am under a certain obligation to reach a certain level of proficiency before subjecting other racers to my presence in a race.
Many do not share these ideals and this is a game and just pop in and go is sufficient.

I am not saying either ideal is right or wrong just different and the game should be accommodating each play style separately on the track hence the reason for ranking or still in my opinion a better option of actual on track performance for matchmaking purposes.

Not trying to argue or say the rankings do not have a place, just trying to understand how the current ranking systems can really be accurate of a racers level on each track just by the ranking system alone?

 

[Outspacer]

But if I were to enter a daily race that featured that Tokyo circuit and used a Ferarri a car I have not used at all as generally I do not prefer the driving traits of most MR drive train cars.

Please explain to me how either a SR or DR ranking system would place me within a race where I would be racing others of my same skill level rather than place me in a race where if I was trying to keep up the pace of my DR ranking I would likely be causing carnage in the first laps of the race anyway?

Yes, if you're causing carnage, that's on you! Matching on SR then DR might well match you into such a race anyway, but the only effect is that your lower Q time puts you at a lower starting position. So you might lose some DR, but probably not a huge amount - and that's justifiable since you're off the pace on that track, with that car. Unless it makes you dead last, you would be amongst those of a similar skill level.

I don't know how much difference it makes (at least for someone with some general competence). I could stick to my favourite tracks and cars and be low A+, but even sticking to my worst combinations I don't think I'd stabilise at much less than mid-A. I think that's close enough to giving me an appropriate rating, and it doesn't make a huge difference to the scoring for those I race against.

For someone at a lower level without general competence, they can be free to enter races with a poor Q time, lose some DR, but learn by following people slighlty more compentent. At a very low level of skill, who knows, maybe DR breaks down... but does it matter until they improve a bit?

The DR ratings don't need to be absolutely accurate as long as they are good enough. I think they are at least as good as basing anything off Q time, where one lucky lap (or one sandbagged lap) would be a very poor measure of someone's race ability.

 

[John Crellin]

Easy peasy 3 step plan:

1. Make the total possible SR out of 999
2. Multiply the SR ranks and everyones SR by 10
3. Change the SR scoring imbalance to a SR biased modifier not DR biased

This solves the problem of jumping around the SR ranks and will provide stability while still making higher SR more difficult to maintain.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Yes, if you're causing carnage, that's on you!

Tell that to the racers that are the victims of such carnage and see what their response is when such racer has ruined their races over and over again and the system still ranks them with those same racers.

Matching on SR then DR might well match you into such a race anyway, but the only effect is that your lower Q time puts you at a lower starting position. So you might lose some DR, but probably not a huge amount - and that's justifiable since you're off the pace on that track, with that car. Unless it makes you dead last, you would be amongst those of a similar skill level.

EXACTLY! The reason that I say matchmaking by DR ranking is a weak link in the system.

A racer should be matched to similar paced opponents in all races and all circuits. Q time does at least put into the matchmaking process the racers actual pace as compared to the other racers trying to enter a race where a DR ranked system assumes that a racer has the same pace as the other same DR ranked racers.

At circuit 1 one racer may be able to keep up with some of the A ranked guys, at circuit 2 that same racer may be at a pace at best of an average C ranked racer who is decent on that circuit.

I cannot understand why someone would not prefer a system that matched the field based on lap times that would evenly match the field on actual driver performance in each and every race regardless of circuit or car used rather than a general ranking such as DR which only uses history of finishing positions to determine the ranking.

That may be a top ranked system if the game only had 1 track and 1 car so there were no other variables that could affect on track performance.

I don't know how much difference it makes (at least for someone with some general competence). I could stick to my favourite tracks and cars and be low A+, but even sticking to my worst combinations I don't think I'd stabilise at much less than mid-A. I think that's close enough to giving me an appropriate rating, and it doesn't make a huge difference to the scoring for those I race against.

If you can maintain a pace on a track that you did not know at all using a car you are not familiar with and still race at a pace that kept you to a level you would still be maintaining with other racers that were in your ranking and were experienced and knowledgeable both on that circuit and with that car then I guess that is why I will never be an "A" racer.

Sure anyone can learn the new circuit or the new car but here that is not the point. "MOST" racers will not run that scenario at what would be a race pace that would put them racing the same guys that were experienced.

We want the same results but our opinion on how to reach them differs. I can say that there has been some pretty bad mismatched lobbies even in prime time using the SR and DR system.

I think we also agree certain players at certain levels are affected more than others and have been since the games launch.

Those players would probably be more in agreement that the criteria needs to be totally revamped than those at levels that see less of the effect on how they are gridded or how it affects their finishing positions.

 

[Outspacer]

Tell that to the racers that are the victims of such carnage and see what their response is when such racer has ruined their races over and over again and the system still ranks them with those same racers.

That was a joke, and makes little sense separated from the rest of my paragraph. But OK, since you're serious, why would it be carnage? If we had a working SR system these people would still be trying to race clean (or not, depending on SR level), and not knowing a car or track is no excuse for hitting people (perhaps getting in the way, but really that's only the first few laps of a new circuit).

EXACTLY! The reason that I say matchmaking by DR ranking is a weak link in the system.

A racer should be matched to similar paced opponents in all races and all circuits. Q time does at least put into the matchmaking process the racers actual pace as compared to the other racers trying to enter a race where a DR ranked system assumes that a racer has the same pace as the other same DR ranked racers.

At circuit 1 one racer may be able to keep up with some of the A ranked guys, at circuit 2 that same racer may be at a pace at best of an average C ranked racer who is decent on that circuit.

I cannot understand why someone would not prefer a system that matched the field based on lap times that would evenly match the field on actual driver performance in each and every race regardless of circuit or car used rather than a general ranking such as DR which only uses history of finishing positions to determine the ranking.

That may be a top ranked system if the game only had 1 track and 1 car so there were no other variables that could affect on track performance.

I've bolded that parts that show that you are dreaming. Honestly... you completely ignored the last paragraph of my post... do you really think you are going to change my mind on that? No method will ever be perfect, yet you seem to expect it to be. I'm not sure we can really constructively discuss things when you have that approach. The systems merely have to be good enough, most of the time, and we can only judge them as being better or worse than other systems.

If you can maintain a pace on a track that you did not know at all using a car you are not familiar with and still race at a pace that kept you to a level you would still be maintaining with other racers that were in your ranking and were experienced and knowledgeable both on that circuit and with that car then I guess that is why I will never be an "A" racer.

Sure anyone can learn the new circuit or the new car but here that is not the point. "MOST" racers will not run that scenario at what would be a race pace that would put them racing the same guys that were experienced.

We want the same results but our opinion on how to reach them differs. I can say that there has been some pretty bad mismatched lobbies even in prime time using the SR and DR system.

I think we also agree certain players at certain levels are affected more than others and have been since the games launch.

Those players would probably be more in agreement that the criteria needs to be totally revamped than those at levels that see less of the effect on how they are gridded or how it affects their finishing positions.

You tell me: why should the system cater to people who want to pile into a race without even test driving the car and track first? Your idea about Q time does not handle this case at all either. I see no problem with designing the sytem around those who want to make an effort to do their best, regardless of skill level. Those who don't probably care little for their ratings anyway.

It's easy to look at what there is now and say "it's awful". Maybe you're finding it hard to imagine what it could be like with an improved SR system, I don't know.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You tell me: why should the system cater to people who want to pile into a race without even test driving the car and track first?

Actually my statement was to mean the opposite and to protect racers from those that do exactly that.

Monza turn one is a good example, currently get through race start without being punted and receiving a penalty as a result of being run into is more luck than skill. Would a better matching system maybe help this somewhat? Granted it may not fix it totally but improvements are a big step forward, it cannot be much worse.

I like Monza but will not consider that a viable option to race online currently. The risk far outweigh the rewards.

It's easy to look at what there is now and say "it's awful". Maybe you're finding it hard to imagine what it could be like with an improved SR system,

I am finding it hard to imagine, the system using SR has been in place since launch, it worked half assed then, the SR system has seen adjustments since then and if anything the entire matchmaking and penalty system is worse today than at launch.

So since the SR system has been the main source of matchmaking since day one and it has never worked right you wonder why I would not want to stay with it rather than try a performance based system that uses performance variations as a direct matchmaking criteria?

I think it really cannot result in doing a worse job than what we have seen since day one and is at least worth a try as a main part of setting a race grid based on a drivers current performance on a particular track.

I have just given up on SR and DR as being a acceptable matchmaking system for random one off pick up style races.

 

[Outspacer]

Actually my statement was to mean the opposite and to protect racers from those that do exactly that.

Monza turn one is a good example, currently get through race start without being punted and receiving a penalty as a result of being run into is more luck than skill. Would a better matching system maybe help this somewhat? Granted it may not fix it totally but improvements are a big step forward, it cannot be much worse.

I like Monza but will not consider that a viable option to race online currently. The risk far outweigh the rewards.

Quite simply, better SR should give better matchmaking. Monza T1 clearly isn't just about ability or pace, since it's still an issue months after the track's introduction.

I am finding it hard to imagine, the system using SR has been in place since launch, it worked half assed then, the SR system has seen adjustments since then and if anything the entire matchmaking and penalty system is worse today than at launch.

So since the SR system has been the main source of matchmaking since day one and it has never worked right you wonder why I would not want to stay with it rather than try a performance based system that uses performance variations as a direct matchmaking criteria?

I think it really cannot result in doing a worse job than what we have seen since day one and is at least worth a try as a main part of setting a race grid based on a drivers current performance on a particular track.

I have just given up on SR and DR as being a acceptable matchmaking system for random one off pick up style races.

Well surely that is two different problems. One is that SR currently works badly, even worse than at launch, the other is that PD do not appear to be on the right track with improving it (to put it politely). My ideas might be a solution to the first problem, but for the second there isn't much I (or we) can do. It started with a fairly clean, technical, design (that could've evolved into a good system) but since then has all the hallmarks of succumbing to design by committee - "bad driving must be punished", "skilled drivers should have fewer incidents", etc, with the poor programmers being forced to integrate those demands without appropriate design time.

So, anyway, of course I don't wonder why you would not want to stay with the current SR system. I do wonder why you think that's any argument at all against my suggestions for a completely revamped SR system! And is it really that hard to imagine a better working SR system? Just picture that (almost) everyone has the rating that is appropriate for them, and think how much that would improve things.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

So, anyway, of course I don't wonder why you would not want to stay with the current SR system. I do wonder why you think that's any argument at all against my suggestions for a completely revamped SR system! And is it really that hard to imagine a better working SR system? Just picture that (almost) everyone has the rating that is appropriate for them, and think how much that would improve things

Matchmaking needs to make Q time higher priority than DR for setting the grid for races.

As far as setting the grid is concerned DR is actually the least important factor that should be considered.
SR and Pace are the priority for setting a grid.
SR is important as it should be ranking players by contact and control incidents with higher ranked players making fewer mistakes so should group compatible players together. (In theory anyway)
Lap time or Race pace is actually the most important factor in setting a grid that results in a close tight starting field.
What DR ranking a person is as far as racing if the lap times are comparable is really insignificant to a degree and the least important factor if the SR is correctly doing its ranking job.

SR should be the system that is grouping the racers together by the actual skill level of racing, staying on the track under control and contact incidents with other racers and fixed objects.
This is where the ranking system has the biggest influence concerning a racers skill on the track in close proximity to other racers.

Actually I do think SR plays a very important part and should, if you go back and read my post since we started this conversation you will see where I did not exclude SR but stated it as being important.

What I did exclude was the DR ranked system as being the proper way to closely match racers and that I felt a well implemented Q system that had safeguards to prevent gaming the system should replace the DR system that does not take actual performance data to set a field where the Q system actually uses a current lap time performance measurement at the track being raced with the car being used to facilitate matching racers together with racers of the same pace which the DR system cannot do and just does matchmaking by averages more or less.

The weakest link in current matchmaking is the DR system and should be replaced by the q performance based system along with the SR system that should be stabilized from the current yo yo fluctuations of today's penalty system.

At launch the SR system although too easy to advance levels was much more stable level wise for the racer than it is currently.

We agree on more than we do not but you seem to want to stay using a DR system that does not go far enough to actually set grids with close fields and I prefer a system that once matched by SR ranking a racers actual performance on the circuit to be raced in the car to be raced will set the grids.

There will be no points based on who is in the field only performance results and such points will only be applied to SR rankings.

Other than bragging rights for single sport pick up races a DR system is not needed only the racing grid needs to matched as close as possible between the first grid spot to the last.

Lap times should do that better if the system is implemented correctly to keep the players from manipulating the system.

Now what the penalty system needs ........................ I refuse to write that much!

 

[Outspacer]

Actually I do think SR plays a very important part and should, if you go back and read my post since we started this conversation you will see where I did not exclude SR but stated it as being important.

What I did exclude was the DR ranked system as being the proper way to closely match racers and that I felt a well implemented Q system that had safeguards to prevent gaming the system should replace the DR system that does not take actual performance data to set a field where the Q system actually uses a current lap time performance measurement at the track being raced with the car being used to facilitate matching racers together with racers of the same pace which the DR system cannot do and just does matchmaking by averages more or less.

The weakest link in current matchmaking is the DR system and should be replaced by the q performance based system along with the SR system that should be stabilized from the current yo yo fluctuations of today's penalty system.

At launch the SR system although too easy to advance levels was much more stable level wise for the racer than it is currently.

We agree on more than we do not but you seem to want to stay using a DR system that does not go far enough to actually set grids with close fields and I prefer a system that once matched by SR ranking a racers actual performance on the circuit to be raced in the car to be raced will set the grids.

There will be no points based on who is in the field only performance results and such points will only be applied to SR rankings.

Other than bragging rights for single sport pick up races a DR system is not needed only the racing grid needs to matched as close as possible between the first grid spot to the last.

Lap times should do that better if the system is implemented correctly to keep the players from manipulating the system.

Now what the penalty system needs ........................ I refuse to write that much!

I know you agree that SR should be better, so that's not quite what I meant. Better SR would mean better matchmaking. Better matchmaking would mean better DR. So that's where we disagree - on just how much difference a properly functioning SR system could make. To my mind, it's obvious that SR is the weakest link in matchmaking.

 

[Chevy Heavy]

And are you Racing for the rating or are you Racing to enjoy the game see to many people obsessed with ratings.

I race because I enjoy racing. I am not obsessed with my rating. But I can't enjoy racing when I have to slow down to serve penalties for people brake checking and running into me. The only reason I mentioned my rating was because the other poster didn't understand why some people were having a problem with the penalties and as a lower ranked driver he isn't subjected to the same penalties. In my opinion this is the first thing they need to change to improve the penalty system.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Better matchmaking would mean better DR.

I still fail to see how any DR system in itself and with the actual data it uses to provide its ranking level can possibly improve the actual matching of the race grid from a standpoint of what a racers performance level may be on particular track, racing a particular car when a DR ranking system is not using any recorded specific data to match the race grid.

To realistically closely match a race grid then such matching needs to be based off the actual performance of the racers using the specific performance of the individual racers under a matching set of circumstances or parameters that the actual grid will be competing under.

It just is not possible for a DR system to do that and at its best can only generalize a racers performance level by using averages.

On a circuit that all the racers compete on often those averages may well place the racers in the ball park but is still the reason that seeing large time differences in starting times from P1 -P20 is more normal than a rarity and has been since day 1.

The problem is only exacerbated when you add in racers that do not fall within the "normal" parameters that the DR system is using to compute a racers average for the purpose of attempting to matching a players skill and pace.

Actually now since PD has added the "sporting history" to a players profile page that if the data was mined by the game from that source to determine the players lap time and use that to actually match and set the final individual race grids then a DR ranking system kept to generalize and categorize drivers overall would be fine and no consequence to compromising the validity of the best matched racing grids possible.

The actual players performance history on a particular track and car combo would be used to match race grids, no Q session or laps needed, no gaming the system by sandbagging a Q session and no generalizing a race grid leaving large spreads in starters between the fastest and the slowest from not using a racers actual accurate performance data.

So all ranking systems can remain in place and even a DR ranking could then be used for what it should do at it best and that is place a racer within a general performance group according to their past performances to indicate a level as compared from the top to the bottom of the games entire population of racers.

In this capacity the DR ranking system would have no actual need to use accurate information collected from specific circuits and race parameters and should do its assigned task well.

Would this possibly give us all utopia for matching on the race grid as we all seek and not even require completing a Q lap as so many seem to not feel should be a requirement or not a true measure of performance?

Whether utopia or not maybe not but it should still do better than a DR ranking system is capable of because of the DR rankings shortcomings in the data it tries to use to actually match a racers performance in specific situations or parameters.

No matter what your opinion is it still does not overcome the actual fact a DR system only uses non specific information that is not capable in itself of doing the job as well or as specifically of other systems using much more situation specific already available data to do the job.

As I have said over and over I do not see how that the DR system can be the best available for the job it is being ask to do.

 

[Outspacer]

I still fail to see how any DR system in itself and with the actual data it uses to provide its ranking level can possibly improve the actual matching of the race grid from a standpoint of what a racers performance level may be on particular track, racing a particular car when a DR ranking system is not using any recorded specific data to match the race grid.

To realistically closely match a race grid then such matching needs to be based off the actual performance of the racers using the specific performance of the individual racers under a matching set of circumstances or parameters that the actual grid will be competing under.

It just is not possible for a DR system to do that and at its best can only generalize a racers performance level by using averages.

On a circuit that all the racers compete on often those averages may well place the racers in the ball park but is still the reason that seeing large time differences in starting times from P1 -P20 is more normal than a rarity and has been since day 1.

The problem is only exacerbated when you add in racers that do not fall within the "normal" parameters that the DR system is using to compute a racers average for the purpose of attempting to matching a players skill and pace.

Actually now since PD has added the "sporting history" to a players profile page that if the data was mined by the game from that source to determine the players lap time and use that to actually match and set the final individual race grids then a DR ranking system kept to generalize and categorize drivers overall would be fine and no consequence to compromising the validity of the best matched racing grids possible.

The actual players performance history on a particular track and car combo would be used to match race grids, no Q session or laps needed, no gaming the system by sandbagging a Q session and no generalizing a race grid leaving large spreads in starters between the fastest and the slowest from not using a racers actual accurate performance data.

So all ranking systems can remain in place and even a DR ranking could then be used for what it should do at it best and that is place a racer within a general performance group according to their past performances to indicate a level as compared from the top to the bottom of the games entire population of racers.

In this capacity the DR ranking system would have no actual need to use accurate information collected from specific circuits and race parameters and should do its assigned task well.

Would this possibly give us all utopia for matching on the race grid as we all seek and not even require completing a Q lap as so many seem to not feel should be a requirement or not a true measure of performance?

Whether utopia or not maybe not but it should still do better than a DR ranking system is capable of because of the DR rankings shortcomings in the data it tries to use to actually match a racers performance in specific situations or parameters.

No matter what your opinion is it still does not overcome the actual fact a DR system only uses non specific information that is not capable in itself of doing the job as well or as specifically of other systems using much more situation specific already available data to do the job.

As I have said over and over I do not see how that the DR system can be the best available for the job it is being ask to do.

You kind of skipped over any discussion about how matchmaking works. Currently it appears to be firstly grouping racers by SR. SR is whack, so the DRs you see in a race are also whack. Get it? So for DR - or any other system for grouping racers by 'pace' - SR has to be fixed, and possibly also matchmaking changed a little. You appear to be dismissing DR based on a fallacy.

So your system would require a record of some or all times set by all players in all cars on all tracks. Even just thinking about GT4, I've probably only driven a small percentage of the combinations, and for N cars it's a miniscule amount. So it has no idea what to make of me when I rock up on one of the others without qualifying (or qualifying with a mismatch to my DR), and only a vague idea after a few races. This isn't better than DR. When I get put in a race and find DRs lower than mine starting ahead of me I don't blame the system, I thank it for informing me that I need to improve on that track.

Your system would also cope poorly when a game update changes the physics, say for the new tyre model that's supposedly coming. Since lap times would change, all that data becomes invalid. This isn't better than DR.

And of course it has no substantial data to work with when PD introduces a new track/layout or car.

But now, back to DR. At SR S, I only rarely saw people whose DR doesn't roughly match their ability. In a typical race, there might be one fast DR B ahead of me but not often, or there might be a slow DR A+ who's behind (more often, since I'm high DR A). So my experience is that DR is a surprisingly good indicator of skill. Typically the grid is in DR order, give or take a little and ignoring non-qualifiers. When it isn't, it can sometimes become clear during the race that the DR B simply got a lucky Q time, or the DR A+ wasn't really trying in Q. This also appears to be true of the various random grids I analysed when working out how the DR scoring actually worked, at various levels of SR and DR. DR measures relative race results, and that's what you want when grouping for a race.

What actually spoils the races is DR spreads of A+ down to D, making them often just a 2 or 3 horse race with lots of stragglers. I often got put in races where anything less than 2nd would lose me DR. That isn't the fault of DR - it's doing its job as best it can with those fields - rather the SR system and matchmaking combine to produce those garbage races.

Obviously DR resets have to be stopped as they corrupt the system. At lower SR levels it might be true that more players have had one or more resets and aren't showing their real pace in their DR.

You speak as if your Q time system would not have any flaws, but it would. On balance I still believe the DR system does a better job than your system would. You haven't managed to point out any specific failings in DR that really hold up to inspection, since a lot of what you want to fix is a problem elsewhere (SR & matchmaking). So it really doesn't matter how many times you say the same thing!

I'm not saying ELO-based DR is neccessarily the best available, but it is 'reasonably good' and better than any other suggestion I've seen on GTP. A single score is certainly far more practical than a multitude for each car/track combo.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

But now, back to DR. At SR S, I only rarely saw people whose DR doesn't roughly match their ability. In a typical race, there might be one fast DR B ahead of me but not often, or there might be a slow DR A+ who's behind (more often, since I'm high DR A).

Honestly your DR ranking makes the system somewhat a better fit for the DR system as a very high DR A/A+ driver would not face the ranking and race matching challenges at a level that the lower B and C level drivers face.

As such I do not find it unusual for a higher ranked player such as yourself to have a different view of the current matchmaking system using DR as compared to a lower ranked player that is facing more matching challenges coming from a wider range of players.

I also would expect at your ranking level it is not often you find yourself in the position of in repeated cases of matching putting you in a grid filling position by being matched with racers that has a DR ranking several letter grades higher than yourself.

When you are one of the bigger fish in the pond the trials and tribulations of the smaller fish swimming in the same waters are not the same.

For the lower ranked players the current system does not work, actual pace or improving Q time even by 2 seconds does not currently effectively guarantee improved grid positions (did an intentional test of that once and was just rewarded with the same grid spots and moved into a faster lobby)

So for a lower ranked player I guess we just look through a different set of glasses and in our position the lens do not paint the same rosy picture you may be seeing at the upper ranks.

The lower ranks just want their own pond to compete in with fish their own size and the current system with way to much regularity places the smaller fish to be bait fish and devoured in the pond with the big fish.

For this reason I do not think we will ever be able to agree on what the system needs changed as the opinion of what changes are needed apparently vary greatly depending where you are in relation to being in the top or bottom of the DR rankings.

 

[Outspacer]

Honestly your DR ranking makes the system somewhat a better fit for the DR system as a very high DR A/A+ driver would not face the ranking and race matching challenges at a level that the lower B and C level drivers face.

As such I do not find it unusual for a higher ranked player such as yourself to have a different view of the current matchmaking system using DR as compared to a lower ranked player that is facing more matching challenges coming from a wider range of players.

I also would expect at your ranking level it is not often you find yourself in the position of in repeated cases of matching putting you in a grid filling position by being matched with racers that has a DR ranking several letter grades higher than yourself.

When you are one of the bigger fish in the pond the trials and tribulations of the smaller fish swimming in the same waters are not the same.

For the lower ranked players the current system does not work, actual pace or improving Q time even by 2 seconds does not currently effectively guarantee improved grid positions (did an intentional test of that once and was just rewarded with the same grid spots and moved into a faster lobby)

So for a lower ranked player I guess we just look through a different set of glasses and in our position the lens do not paint the same rosy picture you may be seeing at the upper ranks.

The lower ranks just want their own pond to compete in with fish their own size and the current system with way to much regularity places the smaller fish to be bait fish and devoured in the pond with the big fish.

For this reason I do not think we will ever be able to agree on what the system needs changed as the opinion of what changes are needed apparently vary greatly depending where you are in relation to being in the top or bottom of the DR rankings.

As I said, I've examined multiple races at all levels, so I'm not just talking from the viewpoint of a DR A player. And of course, I've seen filler added to my races so I know that can't be great for them - various DR B, C, D, even E (!) nearly all with Q times and pace that matches their DR pretty well. So no, you can't dismiss what I say on those grounds.

Feel free to repeat your test of improving Q time by 2 secs and see if it repeatedly does anything similar. Without trying that multiple times it could've been just coincidence or some other factor - like a change in your SR rating - that caused different matching. Nobody else has spotted any similar correlation between Q time and matching, so I am very sceptical.

Surely what you're complaining about isn't a flaw in the DR system, but in matchmaking. You'd be happier if the fields were generally all similar DRs, right?

 

[Ofuscor]

If matchmaking was based on Q times you could always pretend to be slower during qualy.

I remember in the fia race s1 on tokyo being seed #1 full of A players. I suck at that track, qualy 13 and finished 11th. I think the matchmaking does a good job in FIA races where it clearly has more players available. I had the best races with random people in terms of matchup. Close races, with a few incidents here and there.

I think the penalties are at fault. Also the idea that you can enter a race without ever doing a lap at that track. There should be a minimum of 5 laps before entering a daily race for the first time. There would still be people causing accidents but it is better than nothing.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You'd be happier if the fields were generally all similar DRs, right?

If that is what it took for all of the racers to be of a very close comparable laptime pace say of a 2.5 second difference maximum from p1 -p20 on the starting grid.

Otherwise I do not care at all as when I am racing what the drivers DR is in front of or behind me is of no relevance, just another car I am racing on the track. If that racers pace is of a similar level to my own why is DR any type of issue at all?
Edit
If you cannot quit using racers that have a slower pace and that pace is reflective of their lower DR ranking and is where it should be to fill the grids for faster racers then yes, all I care about is competitive grids.

And of course, I've seen filler added to my races so I know that can't be great for them - various DR B, C, D, even E (!) nearly all with Q times and pace that matches their DR pretty well.

And this happens entirely to often to lower ranked players. Say a DR B that is at the mid level or a slight notch above will routinely find themselves as a P13-17 starter that at times will be 3 seconds off the pole time in a lobby with 8-9 A/A+ ranked racers.

So for racers that find themselves in this situation often they get tired of being the insignificant grid filler so the DR A ranked players can pad their wins, pole and fastest lap stats racing slower racers that have no chance against such faster racers.

I have seen poor DR D ranked players in P19-20 be over 30 seconds off the pole pace and more than once. A difference from pole to P20 of 12 seconds difference is way to frequent of an occurrence to be the random abnormality of just the DR system making a once in a blue moon error in the matching.

Surely what you're complaining about isn't a flaw in the DR system, but in matchmaking.

And what have you been talking about for the last several pages in this thread. The current system uses SR as the first step in matchmaking and the current system is using DR as the second step in matchmaking. Then apparently it is using a Q time if available to set the grid from the racers the first two steps place within that lobby.

The flaw is in how the racers are chosen to be placed in the lobby by using DR rather than laptime pace. If laptimes were used to match the grid then you would not have such drastic variances in lap times across the field.

Also it is apparent that the viewpoint from the different ranking levels is going to be viewed in a different light as the very top ranked players do not face the same matching challenges or pitfalls of the lower ranked players.

A racer should be able to expect to be placed in a lobby where they have a legitimate shot at a top starting spot and a top finishing spot in the races they enter regardless of their ranking level. They should only be racing other racers of a close similar skill level.

That does not currently happen in to many instances in the current system.

 

[Outspacer]

If that is what it took for all of the racers to be of a very close comparable laptime pace say of a 2.5 second difference maximum from p1 -p20 on the starting grid.

Otherwise I do not care at all as when I am racing what the drivers DR is in front of or behind me is of no relevance, just another car I am racing on the track. If that racers pace is of a similar level to my own why is DR any type of issue at all?
Edit
If you cannot quit using racers that have a slower pace and that pace is reflective of their lower DR ranking and is where it should be to fill the grids for faster racers then yes, all I care about is competitive grids.

Well DR works reasonably, and on the rare times when you have had a close grid in DR you probably also noticed that it was a much tighter race. But it doesn't support your argument

And this happens entirely to often to lower ranked players. Say a DR B that is at the mid level or a slight notch above will routinely find themselves as a P13-17 starter that at times will be 3 seconds off the pole time in a lobby with 8-9 A/A+ ranked racers.

So for racers that find themselves in this situation often they get tired of being the insignificant grid filler so the DR A ranked players can pad their wins, pole and fastest lap stats racing slower racers that have no chance of against such faster racers.

I have seen poor DR D ranked players in P19-20 be over 30 seconds off the pole pace and more than once. A difference from pole to P20 of 12 seconds difference is way to frequent of an occurrence to be the random abnormality of just the DR system making a once in a blue moon error in the matching.

You've managed to both evade my point and prove it at the same time! By your own description, when there's a wide spread of Q time there also tends to be a wide spread of DR, and they correlate. That shows that DR measures people quite accurately!

And what have you been talking about for the last several pages in this thread. The current system uses SR as the first step in matchmaking and the current system is using DR as the second step in matchmaking. Then apparently it is using a Q time if available to set the grid from the tacers the first two steps place within that lobby.

The flaw is in how the racers are chosen to be placed in the lobby by using DR rather than laptime pace. If laptimes were used to match the grid then you would not have such drastic variances in lap times across the field.

Also it is apparent that the viewpoint from the different ranking levels is going to be viewed in a different light as the very top rabked players do not face the same matching challenges or pitfalls of the lower ranked players.

A racer should be able to expect to be placed in a lobby where they have a legitimate shot at a top starting spot and a top finishing spot in the races they enter regardless of their ranking level. They should only be racing other racers of a close similar skill level.

That does not currently happen in to many instances in the current system.

The way you separate things out when it suits you, but then give an argument that relates to the whole, is getting tiresome. I have been very clear about where I think the flaws lie and how they affect the other parts of the whole. If you can't get your head around how improvements in SR would in turn improve matchmaking then we are not progressing in this discussion.

All you have to do to support that bolded part is post some screenshots of grids for races where the DR ratings don't tally with the Q times. Fact is, you'll find they generally do match pretty well - higher DRs at the top, down to lower DRs at the bottom. So if that's the case, where is the benefit in using Q time instead of DR?

Obviously if you throw SR away and don't consider it when matching you could have a much closer race. But you don't want that either, do you? Anyway, I'm pretty sure that even if you did that, you're not going to get races where everybody has a chance of a top spot - quite simply, for any given race the odds are against at least half the field, regardless of how evenly matched they are.

The main problem is that you're complaining about matchmaking, yet proposing a replacement for DR, which we know is currently only a secondary factor in matchmaking. We agree that SR isn't working right, we agree that matchmaking could be improved... but then you use examples from the current systems to support an argument for changing the DR part of matchmaking to something else. I'm sorry, but that is just illogical. Right now, DR is the least flawed part of the whole thing.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

By your own description, when there's a wide spread of Q time there also tends to be a wide spread of DR, and they correlate.

You continue to make my point as to why DR should not be a factor in the matching process of setting a race grid as different DR rankings generally lap at different paces. So if you prefer to use that different DR levels should be in separate races by the criteria currently used to set the grids just do that then as at least then the grids will always be of similar pace the majority of the time..

All you have to do to support that bolded part is post some screenshots of grids for races where the DR ratings don't tally with the Q times. Fact is, you'll find they generally do match pretty well - higher DRs at the top, down to lower DRs at the bottom.

Again, there have been quite a few races daily races done during prime time that I do not think that the race grids needed to consist of 4 different DR rankings to fill a grid in an entire region.

Again you make my point with the different DR rankings result in different paced racers across the grid which results in mismatched grids the faster racers being placed with the slower racers by DR.

DR, which we know is currently only a secondary factor in matchmaking

And changing the first matchmaking step which is the SR ratings will not change the fact that the pace of a DR A will generally be quicker than that of a DR C racer period in any way shape or form.

So regardless of how you modify the SR ratings which take into account ONLY racing safety, contact and control incidents such as contact with another driver or object or failure to maintain control and stay on the track to determine its rankings and does not take into account any type of performance measurements such as pace, laptime, finishing position, starting position, fastest lap, Qualifying time to determine the SR ranking.

So just how does changing the SR system affect what the secondary matchmaking system of the DR ranking system is doing?

Even you state and admit that across the multiple DR levels that the pace is faster at the top and slower at the bottom and in multiple DR class fields that is correctly reflected in the starting grids that the levels of DR are usually spot on.

I have stated over and over all I care about is seeing well matched grids, quit using lower classed racers as grid fillers and grids should be filled on pace not ranking. If the only way to do that is single DR ranked races then so be it.

I am done trying to show that pace is more important than ranks for a close grid in the lower DR ranks.

High DR ranks start at the front of the grid so it is not an issue for them so the system is fine as seen through their eyes.

 

[Outspacer]

You continue to make my point as to why DR should not be a factor in the matching process of setting a race grid as different DR rankings generally lap at different paces. So if you prefer to use that different DR levels should be in separate races by the criteria currently used to set the grids just do that then as at least then the grids will always be of similar pace the majority of the time..

If I'm understanding you correctly, it is you that is making my point. As I've said before, if more weight is put on DR when matchmaking we could have closer grids with more similar pace.

Again, there have been quite a few races daily races done during prime time that I do not think that the race grids needed to consist of 4 different DR rankings to fill a grid in an entire region.

Again you make my point with the different DR rankings result in different paced racers across the grid which results in mismatched grids the faster racers being placed with the slower racers by DR.

So show me screenshots where it's all upside down - as in, lower DRs have faster Q times. It doesn't happen to any notable extent. What I take from that is that DR works adequately.

Again, I don't make your point at all, because having a spread of DRs in a race is not a flaw of DR, it's a flaw of the matchmaking. As I've said so many times!

And changing the first matchmaking step which is the SR ratings will not change the fact that the pace of a DR A will generally be quicker than that of a DR C racer period in any way shape or form.

So regardless of how you modify the SR ratings which take into account ONLY racing safety, contact and control incidents such as contact with another driver or object or failure to maintain control and stay on the track to determine its rankings and does not take into account any type of performance measurements such as pace, laptime, finishing position, starting position, fastest lap, Qualifying time to determine the SR ranking.

So just how does changing the SR system affect what the secondary matchmaking system of the DR ranking system is doing?

Even you state and admit that across the multiple DR levels that the pace is faster at the top and slower at the bottom and in multiple DR class fields that is correctly reflected in the starting grids that the levels of DR are usually spot on.

I have stated over and over all I care about is seeing well matched grids, quit using lower classed racers as grid fillers and grids should be filled on pace not ranking. If the only way to do that is single DR ranked races then so be it.

I am done trying to show that pace is more important than ranks for a close grid in the lower DR ranks.

High DR ranks start at the front of the grid so it is not an issue for them so the system is fine as seen through their eyes.

I don't "admit that across the multiple DR levels that the pace is faster at the top and slower at the bottom and in multiple DR class fields that is correctly reflected in the starting grids that the levels of DR are usually spot on." - I'm using that as an argument that DR is working at least as effectively as any system based on Q time would. It's clearly the matchmaking you find unfair, yet you've latched onto DR as the culprit and won't let go.

Anyway, some preamble: let's assume a probably simplified model of what matchmaking currently does, with some dummy numbers. Let's say it takes the players and puts them into buckets according to SR, e.g. first bucket is 95 to 99 SR, etc. Then it sorts each of those buckets by DR and the top 20 go into a race together, then the next 20, and so on.

What's key to this is that I think better SR means that: totally clean racers are closer to virtually clean racers in SR, say 95 vs 90 rather than 99 vs 80, then matchmaking gets to group together a larger number of players of similar cleanliness into each SR bucket (especially at the clean end of the spectrum where it's totally broken at the moment). That can then mean that DR (or whatever other measure of 'pace') is used more prominently than it is currently in the matchmaking.

A tweak to matchmaking could be to increase the size of the SR buckets to get more players into each bucket. If SR works well, then it shouldn't affect the cleanliness of a race too much if a 10 or 20 point spread of SR is used rather than a 5 point spread. More players in each bucket means more closely matched DR in each race.

So regardless of what method is used to measure 'pace' (as long as it mostly works), I'm sure the right changes to SR and matchmaking could give much closer fields.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

One key thing is that there shouldn't be any thresholds separating different scoring methods. So, nobody can get free anything at any time. Now whether the +SR is done by a straight line (e.g. available +SR is quarter towards SR 102) or some curve is simply fine-tuning, but either gives a scale where there are no sharp differences in the system's behaviour.

Having different amounts of +SR available is enough to give lower SRs plenty of scope for contact, but indeed it could mean that players bounce around too much at the lower levels. So maybe it should be a curve for +SR and a similar but inverted curve applied to the -SR. However, I'm not sure it's neccessary so if I were PD I'd try the system without it first.

Clearly it does vary -SR, but as you say, for all the wrong reasons. Basing SR scoring penalties and basing penalties on DR, and worse, on DR letter rather than points, is trying to enforce a pattern that should have arisen naturally if both systems were working reasonably - that being that high DR and high SR would tend to go hand in hand.

I do think there should be different scoring methods for different SR letters. You propose a system that's geared to teaching people to drive contact free clean, yet a lot of people aren't interested in that. One of my earlier ideas was to make advancement to higher SR optional, so you can choose to stay at your preferred style of racing. Add an explanation of the stricter rules for the higher SR and a "advance / not now ask again / never" option when you would normally advance.

Currently the system does support different racing styles by varying point budgets and differing scoring methods, yet people wander all over the place whether they want to or not. Perhaps with a larger scale (999 max SR) that will settle down a bit, yet it still won't stop the rubbing is racing crowd to advance to the contact free crowd if they have no one to rub against for a couple races.

One of my other suggestions was to base +SR on contact free over takes, either passing or getting passed. Showing that you can race next to others is what should advance SR instead of showing that you can stay on the track for a sector. It shouldn't affect the pole sitter that races all by himself in front as he's in no danger of getting in contact anyway. The problem with that is though that an A/B driver would stick around on pole in easy rooms without ever getting back to real competition as that's only found at A/S due to matchmaking :/ Yet perhaps over time there will be more permanent A/B drivers to race against each other in their preferred style.

It's a hard problem to solve. Assuming fast players all want to race contact free is a fallacy. There are plenty complaints about why did I get a penalty for a harmless bump, and often in the post race chat people agree that the penalties were unnecessary and they were having a great race. There should be room for both.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

What's key to this is that I think better SR means that: totally clean racers are closer to virtually clean racers in SR, say 95 vs 90 rather than 99 vs 80, then matchmaking gets to group together a larger number of players of similar cleanliness into each SR bucket (especially at the clean end of the spectrum where it's totally broken at the moment).

I agree totally that tightening up the SR matching will improve the cleanliness of the racers at the higher SR ranking numbers there we agree totally.
So we agree that SR is placing racers in a bucket or pool based off of their SR ranking numbers. We are still 100% together at this point and think that would be a big improvement at the higher clean end of the spectrum.

Again, I don't make your point at all, because having a spread of DRs in a race is not a flaw of DR, it's a flaw of the matchmaking.

As I've said before, if more weight is put on DR when matchmaking we could have closer grids with more similar pace.

It's clearly the matchmaking you find unfair, yet you've latched onto DR as the culprit and won't let go.

DR, which we know is currently only a secondary factor in matchmaking.

Now this is where we go off in separate directions and I think being at different levels where the DR affects us in different ways is the reason.
You say the flaw is not DR but matchmaking.
You say it is the matchmaking I find unfair not the DR.
You say it is matchmaking I find unfair but yet blame it on DR.
You say DR which is currently only a secondary factor in matchmaking.

Now you take this scenario all racers are SR 99, a mid level DR B level 22,000 point racer which we will call racer 1 is grouped into a lobby of 2 DR A+, 8 DR A, 2 higher ranked DR B, 6 even ranked DR B and 2 poor DR D racers.

First off why would ANY matchmaking system feel this is a good competitive lobby?

Now pretty plain the first step of matchmaking SR ranking grouped these racers together based off of all racers having a very top score of 99 easy to see and agree why.

Now we move to the second stage of matchmaking which would currently be DR. Now what criteria can be applied from a DR standpoint that could possibly say the above pool of racers will result in a competitive field from this mixed DR group.

So based off of my figures by DR racer 1 will be placed in grid position between P13 and P18 depending on where he fell with ranking compared to the other 5 even ranked racers. So even if racer 1 runs well and finishes at the very top of his ranking class the best finish he could hope to obtain would be P11 in this grid that was matched by DR supplied by the SR ranking system.

Now the SR could not do a better job as all racers are evenly ranked SR99.

Where is the possibility of improving SR rankings fixing this? Dr got even ranked SR racers to work with.
Now please tell me which part of matchmaking is responsible as SR was 100% even and DR was the secondary matching step, what am I supposed to blame it on?

 

[Outspacer]

I do think there should be different scoring methods for different SR letters. You propose a system that's geared to teaching people to drive contact free clean, yet a lot of people aren't interested in that. One of my earlier ideas was to make advancement to higher SR optional, so you can choose to stay at your preferred style of racing. Add an explanation of the stricter rules for the higher SR and a "advance / not now ask again / never" option when you would normally advance.

Currently the system does support different racing styles by varying point budgets and differing scoring methods, yet people wander all over the place whether they want to or not. Perhaps with a larger scale (999 max SR) that will settle down a bit, yet it still won't stop the rubbing is racing crowd to advance to the contact free crowd if they have no one to rub against for a couple races.

One of my other suggestions was to base +SR on contact free over takes, either passing or getting passed. Showing that you can race next to others is what should advance SR instead of showing that you can stay on the track for a sector. It shouldn't affect the pole sitter that races all by himself in front as he's in no danger of getting in contact anyway. The problem with that is though that an A/B driver would stick around on pole in easy rooms without ever getting back to real competition as that's only found at A/S due to matchmaking :/ Yet perhaps over time there will be more permanent A/B drivers to race against each other in their preferred style.

It's a hard problem to solve. Assuming fast players all want to race contact free is a fallacy. There are plenty complaints about why did I get a penalty for a harmless bump, and often in the post race chat people agree that the penalties were unnecessary and they were having a great race. There should be room for both.

Oh no, I don't intend it to teach, just to measure as accurately as possible and be fairly stable. If people find that SR B is their comfortable spot, then so be it - I'd rather that than try and force everyone to be as clean as possible (which is what PD seem to want).

It really has to be a smooth system all the way up, because you can't have anything like the current penalty differences. It seems logical - DR A should be cleaner than DR B - but only 1 DR point separates them. The same is true in SR. At least with matchmaking sorting first on SR, there aren't such big differences to worry about, but even so there's still sometimes multiple SR ranks in a race. More to the point, I don't see the need for additional complication if it's not needed

With regard to rewarding close racing/overtakes without contact, I dunno. It makes perfect sense of course, I just can't think how to work it into a system whose goal is to not give out too many points - so it can't really be bonus +SR, leaving it being a -SR if you don't happen to race closely with anyone, and I don't think that's fair.

Now this is where we go off in separate directions and I think being at different levels where the DR affects us in different ways is the reason.
You say the flaw is not DR but matchmaking.
You say it is the matchmaking I find unfair not the DR.
You say it is matchmaking I find unfair but yet blame it on DR.
You say DR which is currently only a secondary factor in matchmaking.

Now you take this scenario all racers are SR 99, a mid level DR B level 22,000 point racer which we will call racer 1 is grouped into a lobby of 2 DR A+, 8 DR A, 2 higher ranked DR B, 6 even ranked DR B and 2 poor DR D racers.

First off why would ANY matchmaking system feel this is a good competitive lobby?

Now pretty plain the first step of matchmaking SR ranking grouped these racers together based off of all racers having a very top score of 99 easy to see and agree why.

Now we move to the second stage of matchmaking which would currently be DR. Now what criteria can be applied from a DR standpoint that could possibly say the above pool of racers will result in a competitive field from this mixed DR group.

So based off of my figures by DR racer 1 will be placed in grid position between P13 and P18 depending on where he fell with ranking compared to the other 5 even ranked racers. So even if racer 1 runs well and finishes at the very top of his ranking class the best finish he could hope to obtain would be P11 in this grid that was matched by DR supplied by the SR ranking system.

Now the SR could not do a better job as all racers are evenly ranked SR99.

Where is the possibility of improving SR rankings fixing this? Dr got even ranked SR racers to work with.
Now please tell me which part of matchmaking is responsible as SR was 100% even and DR was the secondary matching step, what am I supposed to blame it on?

It's like you haven't read what my ideas for an improved SR system were, at all. A primary goal would be to prevent the cluster of people at SR 99. So everything you've just written there does not apply.

I'd expect most of the super-clean racers to be able to maintain SR greater than 95 most of the time, but 99 only rarely.

To be clear, with my idea SR 99 would become very rare indeed, it being so strict that almost nobody could maintain it. That's a main feature of my suggestion really. It would be a badge of honour, if you like, to even maintain 90+ consistently. With the original SR system, players were distributed amongst the ranks fairly well apart from a big spike at SR 99 which left a hole beneath it. The current system still appears to have this flaw, along with SR changing far too rapidly. So, one thing I'd hope my idea would do is remove that hole, so that 'completely clean' and 'virtually completely clean' have SR levels that are appropriately much closer together, that then gives matchmaking something much better to work with.

... I think better SR means that: totally clean racers are closer to virtually clean racers in SR, say 95 vs 90 rather than 99 vs 80, ...

 

[VFOURMAX1]

A primary goal would be to prevent the cluster of people at SR 99. So everything you've just written there does not apply.

If a person is a clean racer and maintains a SR 99 ranking what has having fewer people at a high SR ranking have to do with how DR will rank the remaining people.

You keep harping on change the SR and that will fix the DR and in all actuality (even in the example from my last post clearly demonstrates) the SR as a matchmaking tool is taking the numbers the current system is giving it and matching the racers correctly on its end.

What's key to this is that I think better SR means that: totally clean racers are closer to virtually clean racers in SR, say 95 vs 90 rather than 99 vs 80, then matchmaking gets to group together a larger number of players of similar cleanliness into each SR bucket (especially at the clean end of the spectrum where it's totally broken at the moment). That can then mean that DR (or whatever other measure of 'pace') is used more prominently than it is currently in the matchmaking.

Granted the high SR numbers are to easy to obtain and making the highest levels of 95 SR or above very difficult to obtain and maintain will result in cleaner racers for top ranked SR players but in no way does it mean that you still will not have very clean racers of greatly varying pace still being grouped together by the revamped system.

And in all reality the available player pool of the remaining SR 99 players if you continue to use a DR ranked system for the second stage of matchmaking due to the smaller pool of players at the higher SR levels may even struggle with matchmaking worse than it does currently.

You seem to be of the opinion that I guess that only the highest of the DR ranked players have the consistency or skills or whatever to maintain the higher SR rankings after this so called SR adjustment.

Well nothing about your idea addresses the issue that DR can only match close fields if all the racers of the field are of roughly the same level.

It is not capable of cross matching multiple different letter rankings based off of DR ranking into the same field and not have large discrepancies in pace within that multiple DR letter SINGLE MIXED field as one of the very main differences is the faster pace that the higher level racers maintain that the lower level racers are not capable of reaching.

Come on man, you talk about someone not capable of wrapping their head around a concept!
This is simple and a matter of the top ranked guys are just flat faster and ranked in the same field with lower ranked guys due to their faster pace how many times do you see a true ranked DR B or DR C driver taking pole position, taking fastest lap and taking the race win with say 2 true ranked A+ and 2 true ranked A racers in the same race?

The only way a DR ranked system can correctly grid a close race field is the DR rankings need to be fairly close to each other. You may get away with a high ranked B holding pace with a mid or low ranked A but that same high B with the same pace as a high A+ then one of those two players are not correctly ranked.

If you cannot understand or see that difference in pace is probably the actual biggest difference in DR ranking levels and use that bit of information to be able to understand for that reason and that reason alone using multiple letter DR rankings that are not close within ranking points to set a lobby will never result in a balanced field from top to bottom.

I am sure that many racers in this game have seen a lot of races only the top 6 or so places finished a race before the race timed out from the ridiculous mismatched lobbies.

Having a clean or dirty SR ranking does not affect how fast a racer can go around a track regardless of ranking letter in either SR or DR so changing SR will not fix the incapability inherent to the way a DR ranking is calculated to set a close racing lobby no matter what angle you approach it from.

Kind of one of those it is so simple a cave man..................

 

[Outspacer]

If a person is a clean racer and maintains a SR 99 ranking what has having fewer people at a high SR ranking have to do with how DR will rank the remaining people.

You keep harping on change the SR and that will fix the DR and in all actuality (even in the example from my last post clearly demonstrates) the SR as a matchmaking tool is taking the numbers the current system is giving it and matching the racers correctly on its end.



Granted the high SR numbers are to easy to obtain and making the highest levels of 95 SR or above very difficult to obtain and maintain will result in cleaner racers for top ranked SR players but in no way does it mean that you still will not have very clean racers of greatly varying pace still being grouped together by the revamped system.

And in all reality the available player pool of the remaining SR 99 players if you continue to use a DR ranked system for the second stage of matchmaking due to the smaller pool of players at the higher SR levels may even struggle with matchmaking worse than it does currently.

You seem to be of the opinion that I guess that only the highest of the DR ranked players have the consistency or skills or whatever to maintain the higher SR rankings after this so called SR adjustment.

Well nothing about your idea addresses the issue that DR can only match close fields if all the racers of the field are of roughly the same level.

It is not capable of cross matching multiple different letter rankings based off of DR ranking into the same field and not have large discrepancies in pace within that multiple DR letter SINGLE MIXED field as one of the very main differences is the faster pace that the higher level racers maintain that the lower level racers are not capable of reaching.

Come on man, you talk about someone not capable of wrapping their head around a concept!
This is simple and a matter of the top ranked guys are just flat faster and ranked in the same field with lower ranked guys due to their faster pace how many times do you see a true ranked DR B or DR C driver taking pole position, taking fastest lap and taking the race win with say 2 true ranked A+ and 2 true ranked A racers in the same race?

The only way a DR ranked system can correctly grid a close race field is the DR rankings need to be fairly close to each other. You may get away with a high ranked B holding pace with a mid or low ranked A but that same high B with the same pace as a high A+ then one of those two players are not correctly ranked.

If you cannot understand or see that difference in pace is probably the actual biggest difference in DR ranking levels and use that bit of information to be able to understand for that reason and that reason alone using multiple letter DR rankings that are not close within ranking points to set a lobby will never result in a balanced field from top to bottom.

I am sure that many racers in this game have seen a lot of races only the top 6 or so places finished a race before the race timed out from the ridiculous mismatched lobbies.

Having a clean or dirty SR ranking does not affect how fast a racer can go around a track regardless of ranking letter in either SR or DR so changing SR will not fix the incapability inherent to the way a DR ranking is calculated to set a close racing lobby no matter what angle you approach it from.

Kind of one of those it is so simple a cave man..................

Seriously? You say I'm "harping on", but then you go on a ten paragraph rant using the same old arguments you've repeated again and again, which attack the current matchmaking. Newsflash: I'm not defending the current matchmaking.

At this point it's pretty clear that you are determined to dismiss anything I try to explain without bothering to think about it, so I guess we're done here.

 

[UnkaD]

Coming out of the first turn on Nurburgring the other day, the guy right in front of me broke traction and slid on exit. I was off throttle and on brake when I bumped into him. I still got hit with 5 seconds and he got a 1-sec. Still needs work.

I do know there are times when it's recognized as unavoidable and no penalties are given. Other times this same kind of incident gave no penalty. Maybe it was a small connection blip where the cars are slightly displaced from each other's views on screen. It was pretty close and quick.

I've also managed to avoid cutting penalties by slowing to a crawl before re-entering track.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

At this point it's pretty clear that you are determined to dismiss anything I try to explain without bothering to think about it, so I guess we're done here.

No where you are wrong is I am not determined to dismiss anything that you say or try to explain without thinking about it.

I really cannot fathom how or why YOU are having such a difficult time understanding the very simple concept of that the actual fact of the matter is the information that the DR ranking system is using to tabulate its entire ranking system is plain not capable of of taking that information and creating equal levels of competition lobbies based off of pace or performance of racers across multiple letter A -D DR rankings.

The very concept of the DR ranking system is that faster racers end up as the highest letter (A+) ranked racers as the whole system assigns its ranking points based on finishing points and strength of lobby. As the performance levels and "strength of lobby" decrease so does the point levels and the letter ranks to a lowest level of D.

DR as long as it is attempting to match a lobby for a race grid can be very accurate in producing a close grid from first starting position to last starting position as long as ALL OF the racers WITHIN THE LOBBY are within a certain point range difference from the most to the least ranking points.

IN that very narrow window yes DR has the ability to match a lobby very well.

The problem with sport mode is many times that matching range of the ranking points DR uses to match is not within that narrow enough margin and when the margin for matching grows to a wider range at that point DR does not have the ability or capability to match racers across multiple letter ranking and keep a narrow field.

I have shown explicit examples of why a revamped SR system will not improve the ability of the DR ranking system.
I have in multiple ways explained and given examples of why the DR system and the information it uses is incapable of creating closer lobbies when you are dealing across multiple DR ranks of 3-4 different levels.

Similar as to why the speculation that the sport racing assigned door number finishing system also seems to implode and not work correctly across lobbies with multiple ranking racers in the same lobby. The information used for that system as well just does not seem to be able to handle the wide variables it is presented with in that situation.

So I have also tried my best to explain as clearly as possible and again tried to paint you a picture that would be easy to understand and comprehend as to why the changes to the SR system will not change the shortcomings present in the DR systems matching abilities.

I have also pointed out that although I agree the SR system needs its parameters of what it allows at the higher levels to clean up some of the dirty driving tightened at the higher levels I have also pointed out that even currently that the SR system using the information the current parameters are providing it is working as designed and is the only part of the current matchmaking system that is doing so regardless of what you may think.

Actually the only thing from a matchmaking standpoint concerning the DR system that changing the SR system may accomplish is to actually decrease the number of the available pool of racers at the higher levels and will make the DR systems shortcoming as a matchmaker even more pronounced.

You seem to believe it will narrow the pool of the amount of variance of different rankings at the higher SR rankings being present by reducing a higher amount of lower level racers versus fewer of the upper level racers but again you fail to understand that control, consistency and lack of contact incidents absolutely has no letter ranking assigned to it you will lose racers and retain racers from all DR ranks not just the lower ones.

So if you cannot understand by now you are right we are done. I have broken it down every way possible and proven through explicit examples why I am right and why the DR system using the information it uses is not capable and it is not possible for that system to be used over a wide varied range of racers of varying skills to determine a lobby capable of close competition.

I am done with this subject and regardless nothing we say will change a thing within the game anyway.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Oh no, I don't intend it to teach, just to measure as accurately as possible and be fairly stable. If people find that SR B is their comfortable spot, then so be it - I'd rather that than try and force everyone to be as clean as possible (which is what PD seem to want).

It really has to be a smooth system all the way up, because you can't have anything like the current penalty differences. It seems logical - DR A should be cleaner than DR B - but only 1 DR point separates them. The same is true in SR. At least with matchmaking sorting first on SR, there aren't such big differences to worry about, but even so there's still sometimes multiple SR ranks in a race. More to the point, I don't see the need for additional complication if it's not needed

With regard to rewarding close racing/overtakes without contact, I dunno. It makes perfect sense of course, I just can't think how to work it into a system whose goal is to not give out too many points - so it can't really be bonus +SR, leaving it being a -SR if you don't happen to race closely with anyone, and I don't think that's fair.

The thing is we have separate SR letters. It wouldn't complicate things to have clear boundaries in what is allowed, it would actually clarify the rules. Since match making starts with SR it should not match people cross SR boundaries so the rules of the room are the same for everyone in that room. We agree that having different rules for different DR letters while mixing them together in most rooms is causing problems. If it's a smooth system the same problems will still be there, only more obtuse. Either it's the same rules for everyone top to bottom, or there are separate tiers and matchmaking makes sure that everyone races together under the same rules. So no SR.S and SR.A in the same room.

Actually there's 3000 points separating DR letters with the 1500 up bonus and 1500 down reduction for crossing the boundary. So it seems that having different rules for different DR letter is as meant to be. The problem is putting them in the same room, and not all fast drivers want to change their driving style. Plus I'm sure there are plenty slower drivers that would like to race contact free at their pace.

DR is used for what SR is for (determining the style of racing or level of sportmanship) while SR is limiting the use of what DR is for (matching people of similar pace)

If you don't happen to race closely to anyone you would not get -SR, yet true I don't know how to balance that either. You could say you only get the green SR arrow for sectors where you've been close to other cars, just to stop simply driving at the back to build SR. However that would complicate things again and I don't think that's a big problem anyway.
The bigger issue is the reward of poles and easy wins for dropping down in SR, or from the opposite point of view, lower ranked rooms dealing with unwelcome rabbits at pole. So scrap that idea. At least now the easy pole/wins propel people back up the SR ladder to get back with similar paced drivers. The goal would be to have fast rooms as well as slower rooms at SR.B yet that doesn't seem to happen.

I'm in a continual mix again tonight, DR.A to DR.D rooms at max SR. I guess the daily A isn't very popular today at the pool of high SR.S racers is extremely small.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I'm in a continual mix again tonight, DR.A to DR.D rooms at max SR. I guess the daily A isn't very popular today at the pool of high SR.S racers is extremely small.

In your example above you are using actual current Sport Mode examples of your matching in the Daily "A" race.

From those actual results would you not have to agree that since the first step of matchmaking a daily race lobby since all racers in the lobbies for that race you are encountering are of a single SR S ranking that it would tend to indicate that using even its current parameters that the SR ranking system would have to be properly doing its job since all racers in the room were indeed of a single SR ranking?
How much closer or accurate can the SR ranking system be than a single SR ranking letter which is all this ranking system uses to match?

But again by your actual Sport mode lobbies you report that the second step in the matchmaking process to create a daily race lobby is "a continual mix tonight, DR A to DR D rooms".

So again would that not indicate the matching failure is at the second step of the process which is currently the DR system as that where the spread of pace inclusion within these lobbies is actually occurring?

I can see if it occurred once in your races last night that it could be a fluke and not a normal occurrence but as you indicate it was a continual thing.

If one system constantly ranked the entire room with mainly a single ranking letter but the other ranking system continuously filled the room with multiple levels of the ranking system which result in a mixture of skill and pace which ranking system is actually creating the spread of pace within the room?

Also since you do race a very large number of races at different ranking levels do you find that the SR system in the majority of the time will stay pretty much within that single level of matching regardless if we are talking about the S, A or B level at the time?

 

[Outspacer]

No where you are wrong is I am not determined to dismiss anything that you say or try to explain without thinking about it.

I really cannot fathom how or why YOU are having such a difficult time understanding the very simple concept of that the actual fact of the matter is the information that the DR ranking system ...........................

That part alone summarises why we are getting nowhere. I have tried to be clear that for what I've been saying that it doesn't matter whether it's DR or some other way of meaasuring 'pace', like Q time, but it falls on deaf ears. We clearly aren't going to change each others minds on the DR vs Q time matter, so it isn't worth us wasting our time on. But for either to have a chance of working other things in the system must change, and that might have been where we might've had a more productive discussion. I tried.

The thing is we have separate SR letters. It wouldn't complicate things to have clear boundaries in what is allowed, it would actually clarify the rules. Since match making starts with SR it should not match people cross SR boundaries so the rules of the room are the same for everyone in that room. We agree that having different rules for different DR letters while mixing them together in most rooms is causing problems. If it's a smooth system the same problems will still be there, only more obtuse. Either it's the same rules for everyone top to bottom, or there are separate tiers and matchmaking makes sure that everyone races together under the same rules. So no SR.S and SR.A in the same room.

Actually there's 3000 points separating DR letters with the 1500 up bonus and 1500 down reduction for crossing the boundary. So it seems that having different rules for different DR letter is as meant to be. The problem is putting them in the same room, and not all fast drivers want to change their driving style. Plus I'm sure there are plenty slower drivers that would like to race contact free at their pace.

DR is used for what SR is for (determining the style of racing or level of sportmanship) while SR is limiting the use of what DR is for (matching people of similar pace)

If you don't happen to race closely to anyone you would not get -SR, yet true I don't know how to balance that either. You could say you only get the green SR arrow for sectors where you've been close to other cars, just to stop simply driving at the back to build SR. However that would complicate things again and I don't think that's a big problem anyway.
The bigger issue is the reward of poles and easy wins for dropping down in SR, or from the opposite point of view, lower ranked rooms dealing with unwelcome rabbits at pole. So scrap that idea. At least now the easy pole/wins propel people back up the SR ladder to get back with similar paced drivers. The goal would be to have fast rooms as well as slower rooms at SR.B yet that doesn't seem to happen.

I'm in a continual mix again tonight, DR.A to DR.D rooms at max SR. I guess the daily A isn't very popular today at the pool of high SR.S racers is extremely small.

I agree it might be workable to have differences at different SR ranks, but it just doesn't seem like it needs to. I think it's better to have a system where matchmaking can be free to choose a wider range of SR if it needs/wants to, say when there are very few players online or because it chooses to create a race with closer DR. A smooth system is certainly necessary within SR S, to stop +SR gains beyond 99, and it seems as good a way as any to do that through all levels, with a single slope/curve.

There is a +/- 1500 when changing DR levels, but it is still possible for one person to have, say, 29999 and another 30000.

About people tanking for easy poles etc. I've said before that we shouldn't have DR resets, and that having a 'fast-but-dirty' quadrant would be no bad thing. I was worried that people could use it to game the system in some other way though - the last thing you'd want is for them to go there, gain lots of DR by driving dirty, then boost their SR and come out looking like a star player. So what might work is to limit any DR gains they could make by tweaking the DR calc. Matchmaking would do its usual thing, SR then DR, using the actual DR points.

Then instead of (DRloser - DRwinner) / 500 + 80 it could be (CapDR(DRloser, SRwinner) - DRwinner) / 500 + 80, where CapDR is a function that limits DR to the max for the DR letter corresponding to the SR letter, e.g. CapDR(45000, C) = 9999. OK, they might still gain a few points, but their effect on others is limited and they can't really boost their DR significantly by being in that quadrant. The neat thing is that function would work for everybody; the capping just makes no difference to most people.

I know it looks odd to limit the loser's DR by the winner's SR, but I think that is what would work. It's saying that a dirty win doesn't count for as much. It might work even better if the SR after the race is used rather than the SR entering the race. Total DR points in the system is maintained, just fewer are transferred between players.

A downside could be that once there it might be very hard to get out of that quadrant. But some may see that as a benefit

 

[Sven Jurgens]

In your example above you are using actual current Sport Mode examples of your matching in the Daily "A" race.

From those actual results would you not have to agree that since the first step of matchmaking a daily race lobby since all racers in the lobbies for that race you are encountering are of a single SR S ranking that it would tend to indicate that using even its current parameters that the SR ranking system would have to be properly doing its job since all racers in the room were indeed of a single SR ranking?
How much closer or accurate can the SR ranking system be than a single SR ranking letter which is all this ranking system uses to match?

But again by your actual Sport mode lobbies you report that the second step in the matchmaking process to create a daily race lobby is "a continual mix tonight, DR A to DR D rooms".

So again would that not indicate the matching failure is at the second step of the process which is currently the DR system as that where the spread of pace inclusion within these lobbies is actually occurring?

I can see if it occurred once in your races last night that it could be a fluke and not a normal occurrence but as you indicate it was a continual thing.

If one system constantly ranked the entire room with mainly a single ranking letter but the other ranking system continuously filled the room with multiple levels of the ranking system which result in a mixture of skill and pace which ranking system is actually creating the spread of pace within the room?

Also since you do race a very large number of races at different ranking levels do you find that the SR system in the majority of the time will stay pretty much within that single level of matching regardless if we are talking about the S, A or B level at the time?

I guess the game is prioritizing SR too much when you're at SR.99. When you get below 90 SR you suddenly get into different groups. At 99 SR it's mostly the same people every race. There simply must not be that many people at SR.99 entering the race which starves matchmaking of any chance to use DR at that level as it's simply gathering up what's available. The failure is, not enough entries to work with.

The SR system seems to prefer a 10 point range to start with, at least at the top. When I drop below 90, eg 88, SR.A can show up in the room. While in the other direction getting above 70 makes SR.S appear in the room. At unpopular times the system does seem to use a bigger range and SR.B to SR.S is possible in the same room. Of course since it's now starved in SR entries as well, DR is still not used for matching as it's already simply putting the few entries together on SR.

However since the bulk of people are at SR.B you might think DR would finally get used there for matching. At full SR.B room should be a lot tighter in skill than a full SR.S room. Oddly it still prefers chase the rabbit rooms at SR.B and DR.A to DR.D rooms are very common. At prime time the chance of having a full DR.B room is much greater so it might still simply be a lack of entries to work with. A popular track/car combo at prime time works best for matching and DR finally gets some use.

I agree it might be workable to have differences at different SR ranks, but it just doesn't seem like it needs to. I think it's better to have a system where matchmaking can be free to choose a wider range of SR if it needs/wants to, say when there are very few players online or because it chooses to create a race with closer DR. A smooth system is certainly necessary within SR S, to stop +SR gains beyond 99, and it seems as good a way as any to do that through all levels, with a single slope/curve.

There is a +/- 1500 when changing DR levels, but it is still possible for one person to have, say, 29999 and another 30000.

About people tanking for easy poles etc. I've said before that we shouldn't have DR resets, and that having a 'fast-but-dirty' quadrant would be no bad thing. I was worried that people could use it to game the system in some other way though - the last thing you'd want is for them to go there, gain lots of DR by driving dirty, then boost their SR and come out looking like a star player. So what might work is to limit any DR gains they could make by tweaking the DR calc. Matchmaking would do its usual thing, SR then DR, using the actual DR points.

Then instead of (DRloser - DRwinner) / 500 + 80 it could be (CapDR(DRloser, SRwinner) - DRwinner) / 500 + 80, where CapDR is a function that limits DR to the max for the DR letter corresponding to the SR letter, e.g. CapDR(45000, C) = 9999. OK, they might still gain a few points, but their effect on others is limited and they can't really boost their DR significantly by being in that quadrant. The neat thing is that function would work for everybody; the capping just makes no difference to most people.

I know it looks odd to limit the loser's DR by the winner's SR, but I think that is what would work. It's saying that a dirty win doesn't count for as much. It might work even better if the SR after the race is used rather than the SR entering the race. Total DR points in the system is maintained, just fewer are transferred between players.

A downside could be that once there it might be very hard to get out of that quadrant. But some may see that as a benefit

In the case of a flat system, should penalties follow DR.A rules or DR.B rules for everybody?

Limiting DR gains based on your SR is not a bad idea. Hard to balance maybe for example when you're the only SR.A in a room full of SR.S, as that person will still lose the full amount to people finishing ahead of him. It would be a DR penalty for people that get dropped down due to one bad race with dirty drivers.
You could of course only apply the reduction on any net gains after doing the usual adding and substracting per player so you can only win less, not lose more if you get what I mean. It would be a tricky calculation as person's A win reductions means person B loses less and needs to be re-evaluated again. Do this for 20 people with SR.B to SR.S in the same room, not it!

DR should simply not reset at all imo. Let there be A/D drivers. Since it matches on SR first, they'll be in mostly DR.D rooms which already completely caps any DR gains they could get. Actually it might even lose them DR as A+ drivers have reported DR losses for wins in slow rooms. Without the resets the game would group the A/D drivers together, instead of the different DR resets getting lost in the crowd and probably put in different rooms as the rabbit.

The resets are causing the limited contribution DR can make to matchmaking to fail further. Matching on a larger SR scale isn't going to fix that. Fix the cause instead of fighting the symptoms. Decide what DR is, is it a grade which should be limited by SR, or is it simply a tool to rank players on pace. Atm the game treats it like a grade which you can only earn / maintain by driving clean, which undermines the real purpose of DR.