- 1,105
- GTP_JosX
Same thing for the low fuel warning.
PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 449,610 views
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Wall penalties are usually instant though and without SR Down, nor have I managed to trigger wall penalties before by hitting the wall with my rear bumper
SR Down and 5 sec appear simultaneously so I think it must be for one of the other cars leaving the track after I got part of the smash-m-up.And the server maintenance banner that completely blocks the rear view mirror for 20 seconds.
- 4,962
- Nelson, England
- GTP_ASH32
@Sven Jurgens With all that chaos going on it's hard to know why only you were singled out but I'd say it's probably when the off the track green car hit you after returning to the track but then hit other cars, it's blaming you for that happening, like the contact with you pushed them into the other cars. 
Not sure why it just ignored the first incident that started all this though but it did.
Not sure why it just ignored the first incident that started all this though but it did.
Yes, with DS4 and wheel is driven differently. I can often tell if the driver drives with a DS4 or a wheel. With the wheel you can drive more accurate and cleaner because the movements can be dosed much finer. That's not the case with the DS4. But the shorter paths on the DS4 allow faster corrections. This makes some maneuvers possible for which the wheel is too slow. In DS4 drivers, at least in DR B and below, I often see rather unkempt and choppy movements. The sticks on the DS4 also tempt too much to deflect and make the car so restless. Because of that, they are for fractions of a second above the limit what makes their car temporarily unstable. But the fast reactions with the DS4 and maybe some unconfirmed driving aids also allow them to quickly catch up with this condition. As a result, they often seem restless and a little bit unpredictable to me. That made it difficult for wheel drivers like me to fight closely. Many touches and penalties arise when one of these drivers overrides and strikes me lightly. Some of it is certainly unintentional. I do not want to blame anyone for that. It is not easy with the sticks of the DS4 to realize precise steering movements. But yes, the different control methods bring some uncertainty into play.
one way to avoid the "choppy movement" on the DS4 is to reduce the controller sensitivity. But some DS4 players on this website keep recommending to put the highest sensitivity to everyone.
Weirdly, the sensitivity setting does not affect the actual sensitivity of the controller, but softens the movement by slowing down the time from "no wheel angle" to "commanded wheel angle". As a result, it effectively deletes the "choppy" movements but it requires you to anticipate a bit your turn. The other drawback is that you can not correct a trajectory as fast, but it is still doable.
- 3,564
- Theresa, Wisconsin
It can be very difficult to race someone using a DS4 cleanly if you are on a wheel, you never know where their car is going to be, it is difficult for a lot of DS4 users to maintain a predictable racing line. Just yesterday I was in a lobby with a DS4 user who was very close in lap time with me, I always gained a little thru the middle of the corner because his car was always sliding broadside and smoking the rear tires yet somehow he was able to gain on exit and under braking. During the replay I was watching from his car, you could clearly see he was braking a car or 2 later than me but not over running the corner, I would have been in the kitty litter if I started braking that late.
That DS4 players can brake later, I did not know yet. But it would explain the many touches from behind that I get. I have often wondered about other drivers who can brake later than me. But so far I had rather expected softer or less worn tires on the other car as a reason.
- 4,962
- Nelson, England
- GTP_ASH32
Yes the DS4 has built in (hidden) assistance to help it compete against the wheel both in braking and accelerating but obviously still losses out in turns. So for instance I'd imagine at Monza it will be king but through corners like the S curves at Suzuka it is going to lose out. That is of course before tyre wear tips it back in the wheels favour again, at least in theory anyway.
This week I drive my races very slowly at the end of the field this week to improve my SR again. Due to the many Divebombs last week, I fell to C and am therefore surrounded by dirty drivers. Unfortunately, this does not work as well as intended by the faulty penalty system. Shortly after the start, there is usually total chaos in the first or second turn. As a result, many drivers fall back. I try to make it slow, but some of them fall behind me anyway. That's exactly what later becomes a problem for me. If such a driver shows up behind me, I slow down and drive to the side to make room. That often does not help. There are some drivers who still ram me. They use me as a brake block to be able to brake later or to prevent drifting out of the turn when I'm on the outside. This is disrespectful and brings me every time a SR graduation. Through this maneuver they will probably gain some time in their effort of catching up. What else can I do more than give them as much space as possible to overtake? But maybe I should drive into the grass every time. Then these drivers would get at least a penalty if they touch me. All this shows me again that some players are of the opinion that everything is allowed as long as it is not punished. Everything that brings even the smallest advantage will be made as long as it is not punished.
For the design of online games, this means that there must be a very strict and tight system that prevents any unwanted behavior. In I-Racing you can see such a system and it works pretty well there. You can not rely on moral or socially accepted rules online. Basically, there is anarchy online as soon as the rules are too lax. That is one of the problems of GT Sport. The developers have trusted that all players want to experience clean racing. Ultimately, however, it has been shown that only a minority is interested in it. The majority of players want victories, successes and trophies. For GT Sport, I gave up any hope for improvement. I can only hope that the developers in GT 7 develop a much better and stricter system and do not repeat the mistakes of the predecessor.
For the design of online games, this means that there must be a very strict and tight system that prevents any unwanted behavior. In I-Racing you can see such a system and it works pretty well there. You can not rely on moral or socially accepted rules online. Basically, there is anarchy online as soon as the rules are too lax. That is one of the problems of GT Sport. The developers have trusted that all players want to experience clean racing. Ultimately, however, it has been shown that only a minority is interested in it. The majority of players want victories, successes and trophies. For GT Sport, I gave up any hope for improvement. I can only hope that the developers in GT 7 develop a much better and stricter system and do not repeat the mistakes of the predecessor.
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I don't think there will ever be a better penalty system by PD for GT7. In GT7 it will be like Sport Mode in GT Sport, players will still be complaining about dive bombers in GT7 unless PD bring in Ghosting. So in a race if you brake to late and hit another player or you want to play dirty then you will not ruin someone else races.
In real life racing you have Racing Stewards, in a computer games you can not have Racing Stewards, Ghosting is the only way and there is no other way.
Maybe you are right. Probably nothing will change in GT7. The developers do not want to lose all the casual players who believe raming and divebombing is normal behavior in a race. But ghosting is not a solution. Yes, the clean drivers are no longer rammed. But the dirty ones will soon realize that it's an easy way to overtake. There will certainly be many players who will deliberately use and perfect this technique. Brake late, ghost, and then just drive through the opponent. There are enough places on the tracks where such a technique is very promising when applied correctly.
- 2,390
- UK
- TPC_Watto
Ghosting is the only way to stop raming and divebombing, and there is no other fix to fix raming and divebombing.
I would love to play online with other players, and if I new there where no raming and divebombing, I would really enjoy Sport Mode races
I'd suggest there is no way at all to really fix it. In real life racing you see dive bombs. You even occasionally see ramming. It's not possible to remove these elements from a game without fundamentally changing what racing is. If you have ghosting then what you have is essentially time trials like you see in Trackmania, and that just isn't racing.
All PD can do is try different ways of reducing the likelihood of people doing it, which again, is not at all easy.
- 792
- Canada
probably the most undeserved 5s penalty i've ever received... I don't think it was remotely possible to prevent the car behind me from ramming into me?
I can understand why the game thinks I deserve one here but this gentle touch from an over eager driver cost me the entire race
come on... really game? there's no way this is my fault at all, im full throttle on the racing line before during and after contact.
and then here is me messing up my braking and somehow the guy infront gets 4s. I wish i could excuse it too, i wanted to keep him with me so we could draft and close the gap to the leader... I would happily press a "forgive" button during the race to remove the penalty i gave him
I can understand why the game thinks I deserve one here but this gentle touch from an over eager driver cost me the entire race
come on... really game? there's no way this is my fault at all, im full throttle on the racing line before during and after contact.
and then here is me messing up my braking and somehow the guy infront gets 4s. I wish i could excuse it too, i wanted to keep him with me so we could draft and close the gap to the leader... I would happily press a "forgive" button during the race to remove the penalty i gave him
- 269
- Aberdeenshire
My SR has been tanked in the past couple of days from S to C. Firstly, in the Super Formula race at Autopolis (Race C) because I kept getting punted and rammed into others by the Italian guy behind me, which kept giving me 3-5 second penalties. I wonder how this game decides that the one being used as the weapon gets penalised, while the initial rammer pushing them into others does not? I saw this happening with other competitors also. It's also been a problem on Race B (Sarthe) this week, at the end of the long straight with the chicanes, essentially being used as someone else's brake block every time and being punted into the sand and simultaneously being awarded a penalty. The limits for getting a penalty regarding track limits on Sarthe are also silly. The arbitrary nature of these penalty handouts matches the videos posted above.
I try extremely hard to race as cleanly as possible, I'm handicapped in speed by not having a wheel (I've moved country a lot recently so it's impractical to have one) so use the DS4, but I always stick as best I can to the racing line when possible and brake/accelerate appropriately and usually qualify top half of the field, which tends to be where the dirtiest driving manifests.
Has something changed specifically this week? I've never had this issue so badly before.
I try extremely hard to race as cleanly as possible, I'm handicapped in speed by not having a wheel (I've moved country a lot recently so it's impractical to have one) so use the DS4, but I always stick as best I can to the racing line when possible and brake/accelerate appropriately and usually qualify top half of the field, which tends to be where the dirtiest driving manifests.
Has something changed specifically this week? I've never had this issue so badly before.
In real life Racing you have Racing stewards, and if someone gets rammed the car is at fault get a penalty. You just can not have Racing stewards in a console game, as I said Ghosting is the only to stop ramming and dive bombing occurring in a race.
PD can try different ways but they just will not work, so Ghosting is the only way to stop players from ruining your race because it is only a Game.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Ghosting is no deterrent though. The game is quite smart at ghosting reckless and dirty players at SR.E. Punts will ghost in time, ramming often goes right through you. The problem is, it also gets abused for overtaking through other cars and most people have found the threshold below which you can ram and punt, at worst you simply ghost through if your attempted hit is too fast.
Simple solution, reset instead of ghost. Same as the reset when you cut a corner too much. That will take the reward out of the risk vs reward calculation. As long as there's still a chance to get away with a dive bomb or simply to enjoy the chaos, they will keep happening. The chance of at most a 5 sec penalty is not enough deterrent, I bet getting reset back before the corner will be.
Chances are people will get smarter and find other ways to cause chaos. There's no one fix. The penalty system needs to keep evolving as people quickly figure out how to exploit it. While the ghosting is better at low SR, it's still not fun when people overtake through you with a reckless dive. They don't get a penalty or anything for having to get ghosted. So there's no risk to trying!
At least in cases like this, please ghost missiles instead of giving me 5 sec penalty for happening to be in its path
I felt the same way. I fell from BS to CC because I was constantly used by others as a brake block or divebombs were done with me. The system then usually punished me for it. I do not understand that. The collisions were sometimes so violent that I was offset by several meters or was turned over. How can I be responsible for such a colision when it happens with such a force in a braking zone or a curve? With this force is clear that there was a large speed difference. In such a situation, it is logical that the driver behind it was far too fast because he has not braked or too late. So how can the system blame me in such a situation? Yes, there are brake tests in the races. But this is usually done on the straight or when accelerating out of a bend. Then the causer has no danger to spin and even gets an additional acceleration.
But yes, the system is just the way it is. The developers probably have no interest in improving it. The developers prefer to outsource their resources to the graphics rather than to the penalty system. Somehow I can understand that too. The GT series has always been a figurehead for the Playstation brand. For this GT has to show extremely good graphics. Otherwise it will be difficult to convince portential buyers of a Playstation. But my priorities would be exactly the opposite. I could live well with weaker graphics if there was finally a good and reliable penalty system. But with this opinion I am probably in the minority.
You know why developers probably have no interest in improving the penalty system for GTS, is because there is not really a fix to it and I hope now that PD will scrap a Sport Mode for GT7 and replace it, with online seasonal races and Time Trials & Drift events, and also a online leaderboard like we had in GT6.
I think part of the problem is that especially at the lower end of the DR scale, there's nothing to be gained from racing clean and building SR, dropping SR seems to be a shortcut to slower opponents and easier wins.
One idea could be to do match-making entirely on DR, but in the races, apply a weight or power penalty based on the SR. If drivers realise they're losing out in racing because of dirty driving, they should start racing cleaner in order to be able to go faster.
It would also be good if the SR benefits of dawdling around on your own at the back were reduced, but there were SR bonuses for both cars involved in a clean pass (no contact, both cars stay on track).
One idea could be to do match-making entirely on DR, but in the races, apply a weight or power penalty based on the SR. If drivers realise they're losing out in racing because of dirty driving, they should start racing cleaner in order to be able to go faster.
It would also be good if the SR benefits of dawdling around on your own at the back were reduced, but there were SR bonuses for both cars involved in a clean pass (no contact, both cars stay on track).
- 1,591
- United Kingdom
- VulcanSpirit
The main problem I see with implementing SR-based weight/power penalties is that they may end up compounding the BOP issues that we've had to contend with since Day 1. Given that not every car can perform as equally under the current BOP settings (or indeed, every BOP setting thus far), further performance penalties would only lead to more complaints further down the road.
I agree, however, that more needs to be done to reward players for fair racing and good strategy choices. Perhaps adding bonuses for clean overtakes, fuel-saving, etc. could provide an incentive for players to improve their tactics and overall racecraft. We already have clean race bonuses, so why not build on that front?
I agree, however, that more needs to be done to reward players for fair racing and good strategy choices. Perhaps adding bonuses for clean overtakes, fuel-saving, etc. could provide an incentive for players to improve their tactics and overall racecraft. We already have clean race bonuses, so why not build on that front?
- 622
- Malaysia
- bazet_mpower
I have iRacing account and also GT Sport. In my timezone, iRacing only active after midnight ( when the european start participating )
While during the day, I will play GTS.
Im the type who play for immersion and safe, not really after points / dr / ir. So I will race within track limit, slowing the car when yellow flag being shown and took a safe line when blue flag being shown ( multiclass )
When I change my goal when playing both, the experience is better and I enjoyed playing both titles.
GTS in my region is vary, but most of them will be kids that racing for the win and with no sportsmanship. Well in iRacing, they have those kind of drivers too, namely in imsa gte, mazda cup and gt3.
So, IMHO both titles have its own problem to solve.
But when I change my mind just race, enjoy full grids, roleplaying as an Amateur Racer..then it will be a great journey.
While during the day, I will play GTS.
Im the type who play for immersion and safe, not really after points / dr / ir. So I will race within track limit, slowing the car when yellow flag being shown and took a safe line when blue flag being shown ( multiclass )
When I change my goal when playing both, the experience is better and I enjoyed playing both titles.
GTS in my region is vary, but most of them will be kids that racing for the win and with no sportsmanship. Well in iRacing, they have those kind of drivers too, namely in imsa gte, mazda cup and gt3.
So, IMHO both titles have its own problem to solve.
But when I change my mind just race, enjoy full grids, roleplaying as an Amateur Racer..then it will be a great journey.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Instead of power / weight penalties, sort the grid on SR first.
Let DR go where it goes, unaffected by SR (no more resets or ranks restricted by SR). Then match make on DR first but start the race in groups sorted by SR then qualifying time. SR.S starts up front, then a small gap to the SR.A players etc. To have a good shot at winning, you have to be SR.S.
Since your starting position is affected by SR, no more easy poles by dropping SR. Plus your DR will automatically be limited by being put further back at the start until you're back at SR.S. The ghosting needs to be improved though, so the fastest SR.A player can't simply torpedo into the SR.S players to punt them off in T1.
Yep I'm a big fan of more rewards instead of a sharper stick.
Contact free race bonus. (Increases with more overtakes)
Clean lap(s) bonus (Increases for every lap without any off track excursions)
Instead of red dots, a star for no penalties received with a bonus.
Positive SR bonus. (Increases with more SR earned in a race)
Payouts scaled on SR. (Higher SR, bigger base payouts)
- 3,564
- Theresa, Wisconsin
Ghosting is no deterrent though. The game is quite smart at ghosting reckless and dirty players at SR.E. Punts will ghost in time, ramming often goes right through you. The problem is, it also gets abused for overtaking through other cars and most people have found the threshold below which you can ram and punt, at worst you simply ghost through if your attempted hit is too fast.
Simple solution, reset instead of ghost. Same as the reset when you cut a corner too much. That will take the reward out of the risk vs reward calculation. As long as there's still a chance to get away with a dive bomb or simply to enjoy the chaos, they will keep happening. The chance of at most a 5 sec penalty is not enough deterrent, I bet getting reset back before the corner will be.
Chances are people will get smarter and find other ways to cause chaos. There's no one fix. The penalty system needs to keep evolving as people quickly figure out how to exploit it. While the ghosting is better at low SR, it's still not fun when people overtake through you with a reckless dive. They don't get a penalty or anything for having to get ghosted. So there's no risk to trying!
At least in cases like this, please ghost missiles instead of giving me 5 sec penalty for happening to be in its path
I think the reset is a great idea. Not only is it a great deterrent but it will get the rammers away from the rest of the field who want to race. PD needs to do something about getting a penalty for being hit from behind, right in the SR section of the game where you are awarded the racing kart they tell you to do what you can to avoid being in an accident, what is the defense supposed to be to prevent being rammed from behind?
The only way to get PD to really listen is if everyone sat out of Sport Mode for a day or 2 but I doubt many people really would regardless of what they say.
I got that to many times fastone371 back in January of last year, and I can not see PD with a fix, the only real way of a fix getting hit from behind, is to have real life racing stewards, watching every race in Sport Mode.
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- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
You would think they could ghost people who drastically miss the brake zone like that.
Now that is smart thinking BallPtPenTheif 👍.
Ghosting is the only way to avoid late braking or incidents between 2 cars out on the track, and players that want to race dirty will not ruin your race, because there will be none to worry about.
The penalty system should be applied to off track limits only.
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- 622
- Malaysia
- bazet_mpower
Just think of this SR system
No ghosting
SR limit = 20 points , when player collected 20 pts, he/she will be kicked out of the race.
Car contact =8 points
Losing control = 2 points
Off track = 1 point
So lets simulate a dirty driver moves
1. Using front cars as brake ( he collected 8 points , and the front cars also collected 8 points )
2. He continue punting the other cars,he now collected 16 points
3. He aware that his actions costed him 16points
4. Another car hit him while he drive slowly . Now he is being dnf due to passing 20 points threshold
In the long run, rammers will stop doing the same dirty tricks
No ghosting
SR limit = 20 points , when player collected 20 pts, he/she will be kicked out of the race.
Car contact =8 points
Losing control = 2 points
Off track = 1 point
So lets simulate a dirty driver moves
1. Using front cars as brake ( he collected 8 points , and the front cars also collected 8 points )
2. He continue punting the other cars,he now collected 16 points
3. He aware that his actions costed him 16points
4. Another car hit him while he drive slowly . Now he is being dnf due to passing 20 points threshold
In the long run, rammers will stop doing the same dirty tricks
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- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
Late braking is a component and consequence of real racing. I think ghosting should be reserved only for abnormal driving outside of the realm of what a normal real world driver would do. For example, speeding through brake zones and recklessly coming back onto the track. It's a video game and I don't expect anybody to actually check for oncoming traffic before reentering the track because their life is not really on the line. If somebody rolls off track the system should ghost them for re-entry, ideally with a countdown timer so we can know when they go solid. Actually, all ghosting should have a count down timer so we know when someone is expected to go solid.
