PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[ScottPuss20]

It's very easy at some tracks to exploit the penalty system.

Maggiore especially. That's probably why I've won there the most

 

[Dorofint]

The guy in the evo don't have anything to see with this , i was giving space for him inside the corner , the other in the Lexus just brake to late and strike both.
Anyway , this is just a racing accident , the problem is that i've taken 5 seconds penalty. I still don't understand this system , was it because the bump was lateral ?? They have to fix this urgently.

Yes it is always the same. You can drive extremely dirty in GT Sport. As long as you leave the track slightly on time or brush a wall, you will not be punished. If the victim has remained on the route then it gets the penalty. That does not make any sense. But it's probably easy to program, that's why it's been imbedded in the game. I felt the same way last week as you did. I went to P6. The driver on P5 divebombed the driver on P4 with 2 wheels in the grass. P4 spins because of the ram and touches me slightly. Basically, I had nothing to do with the whole situation. But since I was the only vehicle that did not leave the track, I got 5 seconds penalty and a SR devaluation. The divebomber has thus damaged 2 competitors and was not punished for it. He ended third with another questionable action. That's GT Sport logic.

 

[Flash_Sweden]

A driver on my outside got loose and went into the grass. When he re-entered the track, when I was on the exit of the next corner. He hit my right rear tire. I spun off, hit the wall and was rewarded with a 3 sec penalty. I’m pretty sure it was an accident though, and unintentionally.

But yes, the penalty system is as flawed as it can be:censored:🤬

 

[nuu1212]

The whole "penalty for hitting a wall" thing is total BS.
You make a mistake, fly off and hit a wall => +5.000 penalty. For what? You already threw away your race.
Or you hit the pit entry head on, spin, get reset, and try again. Costs 15sec total. But hey, you need another 5sec penalty!

Sure, they want to prevent advantages by wall-riding, but "riding" should be pretty easy to differentiate from "hitting" flat on... Sometimes I just hate these programmers...

 

[Dorofint]

If you read through everything here then it is clear that the penalty system is the stepchild of the developers. This part of the game is unloved by them and is only developed very superficially. It is clear that the focus of their work is limited to graphics, sound and physics. Probably the penalty system exists only because it required the FIA. However, the FIA seems to see their demand only very superficially. Otherwise, they would have put pressure on at least the most obvious mistakes being corrected. But they forget that justice and predictability are the core of every online game. If players feel unfairly treated then they will avoid the game in question. It is quite logical. Who wants to be spoiled by an unfair game or unfair gamers? All the great contents of GT Sport are devalued by the mistakes in the penalty system. But neither the FIA nor the developers seem to recognize that. They promote the game as "The real driving simulator". They're pretty close to driving physics, but in the actual race and fairness, they're closer to arcade games like Burnout, rather than a simulation. Thus, they have missed their own goal for the most part and promote their game with false promises. A proper simulation involves much more than just good physics. A good simulation simulates all aspects of the model correctly and not just a limited subrange.
But if we are already here at Improvements. Not only the penalty system should be urgently improved. The AI is very bad. This aspect of the series has in my opinion even got worse in the last few parts. In GT5, the AI was more or less OK. In GT6, I found it much worse. But in GTS the AI is really lousy now. This affects both the single player as well as the VR mode. In addition, the VR Modung urgently need a few more opponents. Driving against a single lousy opponent is simply not fun. In a dense field with good opponents, the VR mode would be absolutely phenomenal. Battles would take on a whole new dimension, as you can look around freely and have a much better overview of the race.

 

[nuu1212]

Well said. Could not agree more.
Improving the system would probably take only 5-10% of their manpower, but they do not recognize the value of it.
I admit that it would also involve quite a lot of customer/driver testing + feedback and that is not the kind of process a typical software company is strong at.

 

[kemmac]

Nothing new and didnt attempt to correct the faulty. Rating System has abundance errors. Also absurd... What can we do? Nothing....but love to race.

 

[jr4737]

Today race C Gr.3 Suzuka circuit, guy in front of me come out from pit stop (cold tires) touch the sand (T2)and spin out and come back and hit me from the side and I got 3 second penalty.

Same race, I got hit from behind another 4 sec penalty and I off the track (T16 Casio Triangle)🤬🤬🤬

What`s going on

Like Kemmac said ------What can we do? Nothing....but love to race.

 

[Dorofint]

Anyone who reads the daily race discussions knows that GTS is getting more and more unfair. I predicted that months ago. This is simply the result if the penalty system fails as in GTS. What is wrong, we have already discussed here in the forum in great detail. All this was foreseeable. I am not a clairvoyant but I have only drawn the logical conclusions from the situation. What was the reaction of the developers? There was none. They watch as the situation escalates in their game. Yesterday I dropped from SR 99 to SR 45 because I was brutally rammed by other players. Some of it was intentional and other was the result of mistakes. Both can be attributed to far too aggressive driving. But that happens when a game encourages and rewards excessive aggression. I complained several times after the races and was again called a wimp and loser. This shows me that these players believe they are 100% right. They think the game has to be played to be successful. This shows me clearly how much the morals are brutalized. I bought GTS because I was promised hard but fair racing. This promise was clearly broken. Instead of eliminating mistakes, much has been made worse. We paid a lot of money for the game and PS +. It should be possible to use the game at any time. But now it is best to play at midnight only at the end of the week so as to have less ramming in the games. That's all a joke. Why do the fair players have to escape from the rammers? Is this something wanted? Is this supposed to be a kind of natural selection?

 

[Novalee]

Anyone who reads the daily race discussions knows that GTS is getting more and more unfair. I predicted that months ago. This is simply the result if the penalty system fails as in GTS. What is wrong, we have already discussed here in the forum in great detail. All this was foreseeable. I am not a clairvoyant but I have only drawn the logical conclusions from the situation. What was the reaction of the developers? There was none. They watch as the situation escalates in their game. Yesterday I dropped from SR 99 to SR 45 because I was brutally rammed by other players. Some of it was intentional and other was the result of mistakes. Both can be attributed to far too aggressive driving. But that happens when a game encourages and rewards excessive aggression. I complained several times after the races and was again called a wimp and loser. This shows me that these players believe they are 100% right. They think the game has to be played to be successful. This shows me clearly how much the morals are brutalized. I bought GTS because I was promised hard but fair racing. This promise was clearly broken. Instead of eliminating mistakes, much has been made worse. We paid a lot of money for the game and PS +. It should be possible to use the game at any time. But now it is best to play at midnight only at the end of the week so as to have less ramming in the games. That's all a joke. Why do the fair players have to escape from the rammers? Is this something wanted? Is this supposed to be a kind of natural selection?

I would call it a case of Kaz looking in the mirror and seeing perfection .

Zero will change as long as the game has apologists is my opinion.

 

[Dorofint]

I disbelieve this video by ERIEISSSS is nothing more to add. He names the weaknesses of the game and shows impressive examples from last week in Interlagos. It can hardly be said more clearly that systematic and still unresolved weaknesses destroy a basically great game. All the chaotic drivers shown in the video are SR S and thus are the elite. Absolutely unbelievable but that's the way it is in GT Sport.

 

[gtpierre]

Anyone who reads the daily race discussions knows that GTS is getting more and more unfair. I predicted that months ago. This is simply the result if the penalty system fails as in GTS. What is wrong, we have already discussed here in the forum in great detail. All this was foreseeable. I am not a clairvoyant but I have only drawn the logical conclusions from the situation. What was the reaction of the developers? There was none. They watch as the situation escalates in their game. Yesterday I dropped from SR 99 to SR 45 because I was brutally rammed by other players. Some of it was intentional and other was the result of mistakes. Both can be attributed to far too aggressive driving. But that happens when a game encourages and rewards excessive aggression. I complained several times after the races and was again called a wimp and loser. This shows me that these players believe they are 100% right. They think the game has to be played to be successful. This shows me clearly how much the morals are brutalized. I bought GTS because I was promised hard but fair racing. This promise was clearly broken. Instead of eliminating mistakes, much has been made worse. We paid a lot of money for the game and PS +. It should be possible to use the game at any time. But now it is best to play at midnight only at the end of the week so as to have less ramming in the games. That's all a joke. Why do the fair players have to escape from the rammers? Is this something wanted? Is this supposed to be a kind of natural selection?

One possible way to fix this would be to condition DR gain to SR gain.
If your SR is dropping in a race, your DR decreases even if you finish first. If you SR was blue, you can gain DR. If SR was neutral, your DR can only stagnate or decrease.

Also 15s immediate penalty for all punt from behind in braking zones with >50km/h difference.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I disbelieve this video by ERIEISSSS is nothing more to add. He names the weaknesses of the game and shows impressive examples from last week in Interlagos. It can hardly be said more clearly that systematic and still unresolved weaknesses destroy a basically great game. All the chaotic drivers shown in the video are SR S and thus are the elite. Absolutely unbelievable but that's the way it is in GT Sport.

If only that were true. The ways to gain SR are as broken as the ways to lose SR. You can gain over 50 SR from driving around the back of one race C in SR.E. You can go from 1 SR to 99 SR in 3 races with a high lap count daily C without ever having to go near another car.

 

[fastone371]

I'm at the point that I barely even enter dailys anymore because I am so tired of the broken penalty system. I dont think it compares very well to GTS but I already own and XBox 1 and Forza 7 so I think I will order a rim for my Fanatec and try Forza for a while. My son also built a gaming PC for himself and is currently working on one for me so I can join the iRacing community. We have complained about the broken penalty system long enough, apparently the only way to get some satisfaction from PD/Sony is to walk away, it's unfortunate because I like the game, just not the esport implementation.

 

[akira3d]

I had some great races at Interlagos last week, but I also had a couple of ones that unfairly and thankfully briefly dropped me to SR "A". One was the typical getting hit from behind while braking into turn 1...got hit so hard by a Mustang I slammed into the wall. I had just cleanly overtaken that car on the big sweeper before the end of the previous lap, so this felt like an intentional retaliatory move. The loss of positions stung more than the undeserved 5 second penalty. I was really angry, but I didn't retaliate.

But then I did something similar in my next race, completely by accident...so I felt bad for thinking that the previous act was intentional.

I do wish there was a way to submit to protest after the race and get some DR/SR penalties overturned (perhaps submitting a replay for review).

In addition to questionable penalties, I sometimes have issues where my TV loses HDMI sync and, even though I can sometimes get the game into paused state while the screen is dark, my car has already gone off or incurred a penalty by the time the screen comes back on. I really am not happy when I am stuck in SR "A". A series of mishaps (including my steering controller coming off of its mount and the cables to the pedal disconnecting) dropped me briefly to SR "B". While it would be tough to prove such issues with replays, it would probably look pretty odd if someone who is racing smooth and competitively suddenly looks as though they fell asleep at the wheel.

The quality of racing is clearly much better in SR "S", so I'm very glad that I usually can maintain it or get back to it quickly. I guess what I'm saying is that the penalty system has issues, but it isn't completely broken.

 

[Dorofint]

If only that were true. The ways to gain SR are as broken as the ways to lose SR. You can gain over 50 SR from driving around the back of one race C in SR.E. You can go from 1 SR to 99 SR in 3 races with a high lap count daily C without ever having to go near another car.

Absolutely right. You can reach SR S much too fast and too easy. But it is also way too easy to drive dirty and not to lose SR for it. The Spaniard in Audi in the video by ERIEISSSS is the best example of this. This guy can drive. You can see that when he drives alone. He is very fast and constant. But as soon as he has other drivers around him, he drives completely dirty. You can see that in the first round of the race. For all these dirty actions, he was not punished by the game. So he knows exactly how he has to drive to get no penalties. Basically, here we see a very competent driver who knows exactly what he is doing. Dirty compared to other players but competent. He mercilessly and deliberately exploits the weaknesses of the system. The behavior of such players must be much better recognized and punished. In general, there should have been more and heavier penalties for these races. Just for what we see in the first race, there should have been penalties for half the field. That was completely chaotic and way too aggressive. SR S has to be something of an award for really fair and clean players. I do not see such players in the video or in my races in large numbers. Too many players are wrongly SR S and that needs to be changed.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Absolutely right. You can reach SR S much too fast and too easy. But it is also way too easy to drive dirty and not to lose SR for it. The Spaniard in Audi in the video by ERIEISSSS is the best example of this. This guy can drive. You can see that when he drives alone. He is very fast and constant. But as soon as he has other drivers around him, he drives completely dirty. You can see that in the first round of the race. For all these dirty actions, he was not punished by the game. So he knows exactly how he has to drive to get no penalties. Basically, here we see a very competent driver who knows exactly what he is doing. Dirty compared to other players but competent. He mercilessly and deliberately exploits the weaknesses of the system. The behavior of such players must be much better recognized and punished. In general, there should have been more and heavier penalties for these races. Just for what we see in the first race, there should have been penalties for half the field. That was completely chaotic and way too aggressive. SR S has to be something of an award for really fair and clean players. I do not see such players in the video or in my races in large numbers. Too many players are wrongly SR S and that needs to be changed.

I just started watching that video and he starts off by bump passing not 50 seconds in... 2 wheels on the grass pushing the other car fully onto the kerbs at corner exit. Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[mynameis66]

If only that were true. The ways to gain SR are as broken as the ways to lose SR. You can gain over 50 SR from driving around the back of one race C in SR.E. You can go from 1 SR to 99 SR in 3 races with a high lap count daily C without ever having to go near another car.

Sven Jurgens is bang on with what he said.My SR is S but my DR is lowest D,not because i just pootle around at the back but because i try to be clean,plus im not that good and my battles tend to be around the back of the pack,i also dont tend to go off track very often,if i was more agressive and fought hard for positions i daresay my DR would rise and SR drop.The point is it IS too easy to up your SR as Sven has said.I am trying to be a `tougher`driver but its hard to do for me

 

[Dorofint]

The improved penalty system this week is difficult to assess. The penalty zones are definitely a good extension. At last penalties hurt a little bit again. But that does not seem to bother anyone. Round 1 is usually a complete mess with many penalties for many drivers. Now we have Thursday, have the drivers learned something from it? No, my race (in BS) an hour ago was another crash derby. It has even gotten worse with the penalty zones. Fast riders who have fallen back in lap 1 due to a time penalty try to come forward even more aggressively. Often not even a clean overtaking attempt is made. Once they are close enough behind me there is a divebomb. The overtake button is used at places where a clean overtaking is simply not possible. As a result, ramming can hardly be foreseen. Just now the driver was still far behind me and suddenly he rammed my side. It seems that some drivers are making the wrong conclusions from the new rules. Instead of preventing penalties through clean driving, they try to compensate for the penalties. The lost time and positions they then try to compensate by even more aggressive driving. For me, that means the penalties are still too low. Aggressive driving still seems to be beneficial. If the penalties were now maybe 10 or 15 seconds instead of 5 seconds, that would not be compensated by agresives. What do you think?
As a first solution, I have now started to remember the names of the drivers who start in front of me. Then when one of them turns up behind me, I slow down and let him pass immediately. With that I could reduce the number of divebombs. Unfortunately, that has little to do with hard but fair racing.
To be clear, I have never blocked much faster drivers before. Sometimes it is even better to let much faster drivers pass so as not to lose time because of the fight with them. But with only slightly faster drivers, a clean fight for the position should actually be possible. If the other riders are really faster and better than me then they should be able to make a clean overtaking maneuver. That's what racing is all about.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Yes the penalties are still too low and often not given out at all for dive bombs. It's still beneficial to take the risk. A one or two second penalty doesn't even slow them down as much, definitely not enough to get the position back if they left you in the sand somewhere. Even 5 seconds is not enough to compensate for getting punted into the sand at Degner or the hairpin.

Plus I've already seen people fight harder until the penalty zone to make sure to ram the other car into the grass, spun out preferably, before getting slowed down by the penalty zone.

GT5's immediate engine power cut worked pretty well. No clue why PD hasn't tried that yet. Ghost and cut power until the car you bumped off is in front of you again would be great. The penalty system will still get it wrong, but it will be the end of bump passing and dive bombs. Of course one of the most annoying penalties is when you go into a corner side by side and the outside car turns in on you as if you're not there, bounces off and leaves the road. I wish PD would fix that.

 

[ASH32]

Plus I've already seen people fight harder until the penalty zone to make sure to ram the other car into the grass, spun out preferably, before getting slowed down by the penalty zone.

Yes been seeing this a few times at Suzuka this week. One particular driver tried to hit off every car he saw after he got a penalty and even weaved around when entering the penalty zone. It's not like it was an unfair penalty either, the guy he hit off ended up last, think he quit too, was a clear punt up the arse into the hairpin.

Also people are beginning to realise you can crowd another car off track without any penalty, obvious really because of no actual contact if you are trying to race clean and fair and so it's becoming more prevalent. The only thing you can do is push them back or try to use the boost and a lot of grass to still pass them, actually works better than you'd think.

 

[Dorofint]

Yes the penalties are still too low and often not given out at all for dive bombs. It's still beneficial to take the risk. A one or two second penalty doesn't even slow them down as much, definitely not enough to get the position back if they left you in the sand somewhere. Even 5 seconds is not enough to compensate for getting punted into the sand at Degner or the hairpin.

Plus I've already seen people fight harder until the penalty zone to make sure to ram the other car into the grass, spun out preferably, before getting slowed down by the penalty zone.
[..]

Yes, I noticed that too. Especially in Spoon is driven extremely egressive and dirty. That's exactly the big curve before the penalty zone. This curve is also well suited for those maneuvers because the victims lose a lot of time and momentum when they are in the grass.
Here we once again see a principle in online games. Every available advantage is exploited even if it is dirty! A meaningful change in the system causes in the end the exact opposite of what was intended. Such changes need to be carefully considered and optimized. Basically, I think it's very good that Polyphony has finally changed something in the penalties. There is a praise from me for that. But Polyphony is far too slow with the changes and does not consider the effects enough. Once something is misused, this behavior must be stopped. That requires fast reactions. The following measures must then be reconsidered for their impact. In this case penalties of 2 to 5 seconds are too low, as it is still worthwhile to drive dirty. The test with the DR S and A drivers was probably positive but what works there does not necessarily work in DR B to F too. These riders have less racecraft and draw different conclusions from the new rules. There must be further adjustments to make it work.
For the future, I wish for higher penalties and a better algorithm for detecting dirty driving. This week there were again many dubious and unjustified punishments. It is still far too easy to outsmart the system and thereby avoid punishment. In summary, so I see improvements in the system. That's good, but unfortunately still not enough to prevent aggressive and dirty driving as far as possible.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I disbelieve this video by ERIEISSSS is nothing more to add. He names the weaknesses of the game and shows impressive examples from last week in Interlagos. It can hardly be said more clearly that systematic and still unresolved weaknesses destroy a basically great game. All the chaotic drivers shown in the video are SR S and thus are the elite. Absolutely unbelievable but that's the way it is in GT Sport.

Not all S ranked drivers are elite unfortunately...

 

[Lazybike]

Drive clean and keep 2 wheels on the track, no need for a penalty system! Having said that FIA at Monza was hilarious, so many people in the penalty zone and then people crashing into them when they unghosted . I find the majority of players to be clean, it's a shame we all have to put up with a penalty system because of a small minority.

 

[Dorofint]

Drive clean and keep 2 wheels on the track, no need for a penalty system! Having said that FIA at Monza was hilarious, so many people in the penalty zone and then people crashing into them when they unghosted . I find the majority of players to be clean, it's a shame we all have to put up with a penalty system because of a small minority.

Drivers who deliberately drive dirty are not that many. I suspect that only 1 or 2 drivers per race are like that. The larger problem in numbers are drivers who drive unintentionally dirty. Partly because they does not know better (bad racecraft) and partly because they have copied it from other players or have learned in arcade racing games so. Some people are unaware that they are driving dirty. Divebombs or unfair blocking are part of their normal race. Some are completely over-motivated. This leads to constant contact with other players and excursions along the route. Perhaps they are unaware that they are distributing unfair penalties to others this way.
Little helps against the intentionally dirty driver. This requires a system that gives them no opportunity to exploit it unfairly. This is difficult to realize. But against the unintentionally unfair players you can do something. Such a behavior must be recognized and punished. Important is also the communication. These players need to know what they did wrong and maybe how to react properly. Two videos like GT Sport are definitely not enough for that. They also have to see that others are punished just as much when they commit something that can be compared. They need to be taught that clean driving brings them and others benefits.
At the moment we find ourselves in a downward spiral. More and more players driving dirty and profit from it. Other players will see that and imitate them because they see that it pays off in the results. This makes dirty driving more and more standard. This must be interrupted. It must be clear that dirty driving brings no benefits and destroys your own race. Then at least the unintentionally dirty drivers will try to clean again. This would greatly improve the quality of the races, at least in DR B to F. In S and A, on the other hand, this does not seem to be a major problem, as the players know what they are doing there. There are then perhaps more intentionally dirty players a problem. But luckily there are not that many.

 

[Lazybike]

I think it's fair to say the penalty system will never be perfect, we all make mistakes and how is software supposed to know the difference between deliberate and accidental, I'm sure they'll always be players willing to take advantage of the system but thankfully they're in the minority.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I'll repeat this here which is where it belongs until fixed

These are some of false penalties I got last week on Suzuka

Why constantly punish the victim??? Now with the penalty zones this means put back to last every time this happens.

Plus I've been bumped off the road many times without the other car getting a penalty. It simply feels random and lets people get away with way too much while often punishing the wrong car when it does do something.

 

[Dorofint]

I'll repeat this here which is where it belongs until fixed

These are some of false penalties I got last week on Suzuka

Why constantly punish the victim??? Now with the penalty zones this means put back to last every time this happens.

Plus I've been bumped off the road many times without the other car getting a penalty. It simply feels random and lets people get away with way too much while often punishing the wrong car when it does do something.

I can agree to 100%. I have the impression that the developers have changed something on the penalty system. The distribution of punishments seems to have become even more unpredictable. I have seen cases in which penaltiers were given correctly. But I have also received penalties for incidents where I was absolutely innocent. Since driving is getting more and more aggressive I can judge poorly whether the increased aggressiveness makes for more wrong decisions or whether the penalty system has deteriorated.
Suzuka last week was extremely bad. But I suspect that has something to do with the overtake button. I have often been rammed off track on crazy parts of the track. For this there were still time penalties for me. I suspect that the rammers at these places were much faster than me due to the overtake button. Due to this big speed difference, the program has probably detected falsely a brake test by me. The penalty algorithm does not seem to have been adapted to the newly introduced overtake button. But even without this special scenario, there are many problems. I have seen in other race drivers who have rammed through half the field without a penalty. Something like that should not be possible but somehow that happens quite often lately. Maybe some players have complained and demanded more 'paint exchange' in the fights.

 

[nascarfan1400]

I feel like GT would benefit from an equal-fault approach like iRacing, where everyone involved loses SR... It promotes just racing clean instead of taking chances with the blame system.

 

[Dorofint]

Was something changed again on the penalty system? I notice that I was divebombed extremely often last week. Penalties only existed when I left the street. Even hard contacts were not punished as long as I stayed on the street somehow. Have you had similar experiences or am I mistaken?