PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Dorofint]

Right now the system can't even get simple things right (I suspect different Dr/Sr levels having different rules are the major issue here).



Here's an on-board clip which shows when the system just does not work. I'm hit with a SR down, another driver is smashed off the track and the off track corner cutter who caused it all received no penalty either for the cut or knocking the other car off.

As soon as more than 2 cars are involved in an incident, the system is fundamentally wrong. The system generally seems very simple. When a touch is registered, it compares a few paramters of only the two vehicles involved and gives the penalties. The prehistory how it came to the collision is not examined. The interaction of several vehicles also not or only very rudimentary. As a result, it does not take into account many facts that a racing steward would consider. So it's not surprising that his punishments are so often wrong. With such limited and time-limited information, even a former racer would often impose wrong penalties.

 

[ASH32]

It was a two car incident until I bumped the back of one of them. The Sr down for me, I can sort of understand how that could be given but the corner cut and coming back on and hitting the other guy off was ignored completely and I can't understand that. If I'd have done it I would have got a penalty I'm sure.

 

[Outspacer]

Yep it's very difficult and PD scrapped the system that looked at where contact occurs between cars (assuming that nose to back half is the 'bad guy') since lag messes with the actual positioning while a dive bomb has a good chance of having your car already ahead at point of impact.

True, a car can go into a slide or step off road to avoid another car losing control. You can program 'forgiveness' for a car getting bumped, which the game already keeps track off. If you get bumped into another car, the first car to make contact gets the penalty. But trying to figure out why you want into a slide or left the road (to avoid a car) is very hard. And if that causes an accident you can be more screwed than simply hitting the first car instead of avoiding.

Anyway there are still a lot of very clear cut cases that can be fixed first before looking into the more difficult multi car collision problems. A car out of control, coming from off track, hitting another car on the way off the other side off the track should never give a penalty to the innocent bystander. And if the car in front is on the gas, going ina straight line and not braking then it's not a brake check!

Well this is PD's quandry - even you (with your level of understanding and relatively reasonable demands) have quite a long list of cases that should be addressed!

What I'm saying is that e.g. giving a car 'forgiveness' could easily also give an opportunity to game the system - get forgiven, do evil, profit.

I think my example could be applied at any time, and could cover any car that's on an trajectory that would unavoidably take it off track in the absence of hitting another car. ("car out of control, coming from off track, hitting another car on the way off the other side off the track"). Ghost it, perhaps work out if it was at fault (although I'm sceptical, and it hardly matters since it's off in the weeds somewhere having not been held on by anyone), and certainly not penalise the on track driver in any way.

In terms of code complexity, it's a huge step up from that example to the cases that seem very clear cut to a human. Every clear cut case has a grey area right next to it. Let's say they did address just those clear cut cases - in the grey area there will be countless cases where someone was in fact at fault, but no penalty applied, and there would be complaints ("you did it in that case, why not in this case?"). It could easily seem arbitrary and inconsistent.

For sure, (time) penalties should never be given to innocents. If that means some at fault get away with it, then I think that's a reasonable price to pay. (I don't see both parties getting -SR as a penalty, BTW, since I'm thinking in the context of a more statistical SR). It's simply more important that innocents aren't punished.

I read your earlier description of how you race, staying closest to the edge etc, with horror. That sounds worse to me than the original simple -SR for both with no blame, certainly worse than races an improved SR rating coud provide. I mean, I don't really care about punishing the bad guys with penalties - I want races without (or at least with far fewer) bad guys!

 

[ROCKET JOE]

@Outspacer
You're my man, mate - I see a lot of parallels, I just couldn't put it like you do 👍 !

 

[Outspacer]

@Outspacer
You're my man, mate - I see a lot of parallels, I just couldn't put it like you do 👍 !

Thanks!

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Well this is PD's quandry - even you (with your level of understanding and relatively reasonable demands) have quite a long list of cases that should be addressed!

What I'm saying is that e.g. giving a car 'forgiveness' could easily also give an opportunity to game the system - get forgiven, do evil, profit.

I think my example could be applied at any time, and could cover any car that's on an trajectory that would unavoidably take it off track in the absence of hitting another car. ("car out of control, coming from off track, hitting another car on the way off the other side off the track"). Ghost it, perhaps work out if it was at fault (although I'm sceptical, and it hardly matters since it's off in the weeds somewhere having not been held on by anyone), and certainly not penalise the on track driver in any way.

In terms of code complexity, it's a huge step up from that example to the cases that seem very clear cut to a human. Every clear cut case has a grey area right next to it. Let's say they did address just those clear cut cases - in the grey area there will be countless cases where someone was in fact at fault, but no penalty applied, and there would be complaints ("you did it in that case, why not in this case?"). It could easily seem arbitrary and inconsistent.

For sure, (time) penalties should never be given to innocents. If that means some at fault get away with it, then I think that's a reasonable price to pay. (I don't see both parties getting -SR as a penalty, BTW, since I'm thinking in the context of a more statistical SR). It's simply more important that innocents aren't punished.

I read your earlier description of how you race, staying closest to the edge etc, with horror. That sounds worse to me than the original simple -SR for both with no blame, certainly worse than races an improved SR rating coud provide. I mean, I don't really care about punishing the bad guys with penalties - I want races without (or at least with far fewer) bad guys!

It's to avoid getting unfair penalties. It's a bonus when the bad guy gets a penalty yet that often means they'll be in the way in the next penalty zone, if not for me then for someone else.

So indeed, simply SR Down for all involved with a statistical approach could work. Trying to decide who is at fault hasn't worked yet and messes up the SR ranks as much as helping it.

 

[Outspacer]

It's to avoid getting unfair penalties. It's a bonus when the bad guy gets a penalty yet that often means they'll be in the way in the next penalty zone, if not for me then for someone else.

So indeed, simply SR Down for all involved with a statistical approach could work. Trying to decide who is at fault hasn't worked yet and messes up the SR ranks as much as helping it.

Oh, I understand why you do it - and why you kind of have to do it in the current system - it's just that it's such an unnatural way to race!

 

[Scotchboy]

Yup, assigning fault has to be objectively difficult in terms of a software code that can't understand intent or action.
I think at least having the penalty zones is better than not having them, but far too often the victim is still the one punished.
A smart system of statistical analysis would fall victim to the same issues as the current system - it's the nature of coding and programming with so many variables.
It's frustrating because it would probably be fine if people just drove the way literally any normal racing driver does, but I guess that's not fun enough for them. Or, if the system recognised driving the way any actual racing driver would (without any contact but with a fair amount of defence) as being good. This has been the case in the past and has worked well, some of the best racing I've had has been respectful and contactless but close etc and that's been amazing - this standard has become very rare these days though, and my SR is murdered because of it.

Like how this evening in every race I've done at Tsukuba I have intended to follow the racing line and brake at the appropriate point in order to actually make it round the corner, yet get SR down for the guy behind using me as a buffer because they brake too late. I guess it sees me maintaining my line when nobody is on the inside or outside line relative to me as 'blocking' the guy trying to stay glued to the back of me. Or getting SR down because they hit me square in the side while I was on the apex of the corner they were randomly barrelling across the grass for. Or giving me SR down because another guy on the inside line's tail got very sideways and hit me. It seems the only way to get good SR when someone is directly behind you is to somehow let them past, which isn't racing. It's fun... not.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Check this one out, how ridiculous can it get


Another fun one. How do you avoid a car that suddenly stops dead.

 

[CBH]

Another fun one. How do you avoid a car that suddenly stops dead.

In Real life this is a Racing incident and no action will be taken between the 2 players, but this is a video game and you should enjoy racing online and not get unfair penalties.
Exceeding the track limits, this where the penalties should be applied only and not on track, because this is a video game.

 

[Dorofint]

Yup, assigning fault has to be objectively difficult in terms of a software code that can't understand intent or action.
I think at least having the penalty zones is better than not having them, but far too often the victim is still the one punished.
A smart system of statistical analysis would fall victim to the same issues as the current system - it's the nature of coding and programming with so many variables.
It's frustrating because it would probably be fine if people just drove the way literally any normal racing driver does, but I guess that's not fun enough for them. Or, if the system recognised driving the way any actual racing driver would (without any contact but with a fair amount of defence) as being good. This has been the case in the past and has worked well, some of the best racing I've had has been respectful and contactless but close etc and that's been amazing - this standard has become very rare these days though, and my SR is murdered because of it.

Like how this evening in every race I've done at Tsukuba I have intended to follow the racing line and brake at the appropriate point in order to actually make it round the corner, yet get SR down for the guy behind using me as a buffer because they brake too late. I guess it sees me maintaining my line when nobody is on the inside or outside line relative to me as 'blocking' the guy trying to stay glued to the back of me. Or getting SR down because they hit me square in the side while I was on the apex of the corner they were randomly barrelling across the grass for. Or giving me SR down because another guy on the inside line's tail got very sideways and hit me. It seems the only way to get good SR when someone is directly behind you is to somehow let them past, which isn't racing. It's fun... not.

You're right. The level has fallen sharply in recent months. The number of clean and respectful races has declined more and more. I see the error in the penalty system. The current system encourages and rewards aggressive and dirty driving. Players with little racecraft adapt to these rules and ride as it brings the best results. In such a game you can not be sure that everyone wants to play clean. In such a game there must be clear rules and they must also be monitored and enforced. The system must be designed to reward the desired behavior and punish unwanted behavior. This is where GT Sport totally fails. At the moment, those drivers who cleanly drive their lines and pay attention to other drivers are penalized. That would be OK for a Burnout game, but in the "real driving simulator" it's totally inappropriate. Here claim and reality do not match at all.

 

[Dmac72]

Personally I would re-structure sport mode entirely. It should only be possible to increase your DR once you get to an SR of S within your current DR category. You then progress up to the next DR class and start at SR E within that class.
Any contact with another player regardless of blame should forfeit any credit, mileage or exp points or other prize. Any rewards due within that race should be distributed to those who had clean races.
SR down should not happen at all.
Time penalties should only apply to track limits.
With no reward at all for dirty driving and additional reward for clean racing, the game goes in the right direction.

Basically you only get promoted from DR D to DR C, for example, once you have proved you can compete cleanly at DR D level.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Personally I would re-structure sport mode entirely. It should only be possible to increase your DR once you get to an SR of S within your current DR category. You then progress up to the next DR class and start at SR E within that class.
Any contact with another player regardless of blame should forfeit any credit, mileage or exp points or other prize. Any rewards due within that race should be distributed to those who had clean races.
SR down should not happen at all.
Time penalties should only apply to track limits.
With no reward at all for dirty driving and additional reward for clean racing, the game goes in the right direction.

Basically you only get promoted from DR D to DR C, for example, once you have proved you can compete cleanly at DR D level.

The problem with that is the assumption that people want to increase DR and SR or care about the prize money. It's PD who added the 91 victory trophy, winning is what counts. Many intentionally tank SR and DR to get easy victories and the penalty system facilitates the win at all cost mentality. You need to take away the victory for dirty driving, yet how can you do that reliably?

The biggest trouble makers are those win at all cost drivers that get reset almost weekly and whose SR goes up and down all the time. It should not be harder to increase DR, instead it should be much harder to increase SR to keep these drivers from returning to SR.S all the time. Besides that, increase rewards for higher SR.

One thing that might help is to only make it possible to advance to the next SR tier with one or more clean race bonuses. One to advance to SR.A, 2 consecutive bonuses to advance to SR.S. As long as you can't meet that, your SR stays capped at 64 or 79. Once you clear the requirements add a few bonus points same as when leveling up in DR. So you start at 70 in SR.A, 85 in SR.S.

Make it so you can't further increase your SR in SR.S without a clean race bonus. The only way to get a little safety buffer and get your SR to 99 is to drive clean. No clean race bonus, at max neutral SR. Also no silly +20 SR for a clean C race, cap it at +5.

On the other side, also make it not possible to drop to SR.E in one race. Once you lose enough SR to de-level, get DQ and set SR to the lowest value in that tier. One more chance, Next race you start with the imminent DQ warning, if you get any SR Down, DQ and de-level to the next lower tier. Perhaps only do that for SR.A and SR.S, let SR.B and lower stay the way it is. Some people like driving full contact. SR.B and lower are good for that. Yet to race in SR.S you need to be able to drive contact free.

 

[Dmac72]

The problem with that is the assumption that people want to increase DR and SR or care about the prize money. It's PD who added the 91 victory trophy, winning is what counts. Many intentionally tank SR and DR to get easy victories and the penalty system facilitates the win at all cost mentality. You need to take away the victory for dirty driving, yet how can you do that reliably?

The biggest trouble makers are those win at all cost drivers that get reset almost weekly and whose SR goes up and down all the time. It should not be harder to increase DR, instead it should be much harder to increase SR to keep these drivers from returning to SR.S all the time. Besides that, increase rewards for higher SR.

One thing that might help is to only make it possible to advance to the next SR tier with one or more clean race bonuses. One to advance to SR.A, 2 consecutive bonuses to advance to SR.S. As long as you can't meet that, your SR stays capped at 64 or 79. Once you clear the requirements add a few bonus points same as when leveling up in DR. So you start at 70 in SR.A, 85 in SR.S.

Make it so you can't further increase your SR in SR.S without a clean race bonus. The only way to get a little safety buffer and get your SR to 99 is to drive clean. No clean race bonus, at max neutral SR. Also no silly +20 SR for a clean C race, cap it at +5.

On the other side, also make it not possible to drop to SR.E in one race. Once you lose enough SR to de-level, get DQ and set SR to the lowest value in that tier. One more chance, Next race you start with the imminent DQ warning, if you get any SR Down, DQ and de-level to the next lower tier. Perhaps only do that for SR.A and SR.S, let SR.B and lower stay the way it is. Some people like driving full contact. SR.B and lower are good for that. Yet to race in SR.S you need to be able to drive contact free.

Let them have the win, but no trophy count. As I said in my post “any other prize”.
Crossing the line first would be the only thing they could gain.
If they race dirty all the time they will only be racing other dirty drivers. Clean racers will have progressed beyond them.
With my suggestion of progression it only actually rewards clean driving.
The win at all costs approach is more aimed at credits and exp points. Tane those away, along with any trophy or recorded “achievement” and there is no benefit to racing dirty.
The argument that some like “full contact” racing is irrelevant if what you are trying to encourage is clean racing.
Full contact will be at a lower level.

 

[Voodoovaj]

PD should use a full room race around Monza to adjust the Penalty system. It brings out the worst in the system.

Yesterday, I got punted off at the exit of the first chicane. Of course, when someone puts you in the gravel, you try to stay on the asphalt so I steer back towards the track. while I am half on the track, the culprit hits me again, but this time, spins himself into the gravel.

4 second penalty for me

Yesterday, a driver spun in front of me and I could not avoid him (he hit grass). I hit him broadside. 4 seconds penalty for me.

There HAS to be a way to detect these kinds of instances.



I HATE HATE HATE when I am proven wrong, but when the penalty system was the most strict, it was at it's best. People avoided hitting each other. Careless people got HUGE penalties. People who went out of their way to be clean and avoid contact, excelled. It worked. I didn't like when penalties got more harsh as DR increased because it prevented drivers from racing door to door, but I think it's a valid idea if it were implemented the other way; increasing penalties as DR decreases. It doesn't have to be a lot, but as DR goes down, there is less controlled aggression. Moves are made that shouldn't be made. Benefit of the doubt should go to the driver with the higher DR. Give high DR a bigger benefit.

 

[fastone371]

Monza is dam near unraceable in the current penalty format unless you choose to be dirty and know how to get away with it.

 

[Dmac72]

The difficulty is finding a system which can be coded into a game.
That is why I favour the removal of the blame and SR down elements.
Any contact = zero reward.
Exceed track limits = time penalty added at the end of the race.
Clean race = step toward SR improvement.
SR improvement = step towards DR improvement.
It is like any other categorised racing. If you are good enough and quick enough then you progress.
If you win by bumping then you’re not good enough regardless of pace.

Monza is dam near unraceable in the current penalty format unless you choose to be dirty and know how to get away with it.

That’s why I am avoiding sport mode this week.

 

[ASH32]

Regarding fixes removing wall penalties (where you can't possibly gain an advantage by hitting it obviously) would be a good start. With the penalty zones it's even more unfair when this happens.



The only penalty is to me for 5 seconds for hitting the inside wall, I had no control and the grass is beyond slippery in this game so things like this will happen again and again and giving a penalty on top in just insulting really.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Let them have the win, but no trophy count. As I said in my post “any other prize”.
Crossing the line first would be the only thing they could gain.
If they race dirty all the time they will only be racing other dirty drivers. Clean racers will have progressed beyond them.
With my suggestion of progression it only actually rewards clean driving.
The win at all costs approach is more aimed at credits and exp points. Tane those away, along with any trophy or recorded “achievement” and there is no benefit to racing dirty.
The argument that some like “full contact” racing is irrelevant if what you are trying to encourage is clean racing.
Full contact will be at a lower level.

It should not record dirty victories at all then. Plenty people brag about x wins, x poles, x fastest laps, then you look at their stats and their average SR is about 30 with weekly resets. The problem is though, that second place can draft bump first to take away his chances at a victory.

I get what you mean now with DR classes. Matchmaking needs to be adjusted in that case to select on DR first. A+/S to D/S turns into A+/S to A+/E rooms before adding A/S to A/E etc. Basically you multiply the SR ladder by 5. It could work. A/E still means you have been D/S C/S and B/S at some point. And I assume you drop back down to B/S when you lose too much SR in A/E?

How fair is that though to clean drivers that simply aren't fast enough to get beyond D/S? Perhaps more fair than making them race A+/S as it is now Plus at DR.D there should be plenty people to make separate D/E to D/S rooms giving them a much better shot at clean races and a good chance of winning. I like it.

 

[Dmac72]

It should not record dirty victories at all then. Plenty people brag about x wins, x poles, x fastest laps, then you look at their stats and their average SR is about 30 with weekly resets. The problem is though, that second place can draft bump first to take away his chances at a victory.

I get what you mean now with DR classes. Matchmaking needs to be adjusted in that case to select on DR first. A+/S to D/S turns into A+/S to A+/E rooms before adding A/S to A/E etc. Basically you multiply the SR ladder by 5. It could work. A/E still means you have been D/S C/S and B/S at some point. And I assume you drop back down to B/S when you lose too much SR in A/E?

How fair is that though to clean drivers that simply aren't fast enough to get beyond D/S? Perhaps more fair than making them race A+/S as it is now Plus at DR.D there should be plenty people to make separate D/E to D/S rooms giving them a much better shot at clean races and a good chance of winning. I like it.

My aim would be to get everyone racing against those of a similar pace. That’s what makes good racing. If you are clean and winning then you will progress.
If you’re neither quick enough or clean enough then practice and improve.

 

[Dorofint]

Monza is dam near unraceable in the current penalty format unless you choose to be dirty and know how to get away with it.

Absolutely right. Yesterday I was second last because I did not qualify. The last driver waited briefly at the start until he finally accelerated. When I then brake for the chicane he shoots past me and races with full throttle in the drivers in front of us who are currently in the chicane. There is a huge chaos with many penalties he got flying and respawns after the chicane on P3. Without penalty he drove his race and ends it on P2. That was the most blatant thing I experienced there. But I see again some experts who touch other drivers just before the chicane to then be able to shorten without penalty. The other driver usually gets a penalty. Monza shows the whole madness of the current system.

 

[ASH32]

Also this. No penalty at all given for any of this. I even go off the track but still nothing.



Different rules because you have lower Dr or Sr is unfair as soon as drivers playing by different rule sets are in the same race, which is all the time in the dailies, even before you are not top S Sr. Same rules for everyone please.

 

[Dorofint]

Also this. No penalty at all given for any of this. I even go off the track but still nothing.



Different rules because you have lower Dr or Sr is unfair as soon as drivers playing by different rule sets are in the same race, which is all the time in the dailies, even before you are not top S Sr. Same rules for everyone please.

The idea with the various rules is wrong in the beginning. Even if EE drivers are among themselves the general rules should apply in the game for these drivers. How should they learn to racecraft and drive clean if they can afford anything? Of course, if they get used to such a behaving in lower classes, they will also do so after a climb.
Of course this is even more true in mixed races. Different rules are fundamentally wrong.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Absolutely right. Yesterday I was second last because I did not qualify. The last driver waited briefly at the start until he finally accelerated. When I then brake for the chicane he shoots past me and races with full throttle in the drivers in front of us who are currently in the chicane. There is a huge chaos with many penalties he got flying and respawns after the chicane on P3. Without penalty he drove his race and ends it on P2. That was the most blatant thing I experienced there. But I see again some experts who touch other drivers just before the chicane to then be able to shorten without penalty. The other driver usually gets a penalty. Monza shows the whole madness of the current system.

In some sick way it makes sense to prepare drivers for the real world. Avoid at all cost. Any car out of control, going too fast, has the right of way if you value your life. It's the same as not stepping in front of a car ignoring a cross walk. The one with the largest momentum has to be avoided.

The problem is not that you get a penalty for failing to avoid an accident, it's that the one causing the accident often goes free. Thus an aggressive drive will abuse his car's momentum to full extent. Hence if PD can't fix the blame assignment, going back to blaming everyone involved is much better than what we have now. You won't get to race on a real track (at least not for long) if you can't avoid accidents whether you were in the right or not.

Maybe that's why PD doesn't want to ghost obvious missiles in higher DR/SR. Better learn to avoid than assume the system will save you. It's all a test ground to cultivate the next real drivers.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Great to read that some of us pull into similar directions !

Here's some of my basic points :
Don't penalize bad racing, encourage good racing. Do scumbags care ? I do though !
Point out the rules and keep it simple. No one wants SvennoJ-like rocket-science in order to understand ...
Skip time penalties entirely since you can not detect fault. Let me just race instead.
Have an SR being based on contact. Introduce a lifetime tracking of a driver's behaviour.
Allow for more contact in lower SR classes, less contact in higher SR classes.
All progress, prizes, championship-points etc. depend on how cleanly you race.
Getting top-rated should require some serious effort, there should be a safety-net though for a bad race or two.
Have MM being based on SR, however, don't mix up classes just to get a full grid.

Well, that's been quick and rough ... and incomplete.
I think you get the idea though - it's been mentioned here recently anyway !

 

[CBH]

Yesterday, I got punted off at the exit of the first chicane. Of course, when someone puts you in the gravel, you try to stay on the asphalt so I steer back towards the track. while I am half on the track, the culprit hits me again, but this time, spins himself into the gravel.

4 second penalty for me

Yesterday, a driver spun in front of me and I could not avoid him (he hit grass). I hit him broadside. 4 seconds penalty for me.

There HAS to be a way to detect these kinds of instances.

The only way is to bring in Ghosting because there is no way in the world, a computer can detect who is at fault between 2 players out on the track.
Ghosting is the only cure to clean up the unfair penalties in Sport Mode Races. There should never be any penalties issued out on the track, because it is a game.

 

[tariklehaine]

I followed this threat for quite a while now but what I am curious about is how these "issues" are being handled on PC2, Asseto, iRacing etc.? Personally playing GT sport atm so I don't know about the other games.

 

[Dmac72]

The only way is to bring in Ghosting because there is no way in the world, a computer can detect who is at fault between 2 players out on the track.
Ghosting is the only cure to clean up the unfair penalties in Sport Mode Races. There should never be any penalties issued out on the track, because it is a game.

But ghosting doesn’t discourage bad driving, it just removes the consequences.
No ghosting, no penalties and no rewards of any type ( trophies, credits, xp, win counts etc) for either party involved removes any benefits of unsportsmanlike driving. It is, after all, “sport mode”.
Ghosting just means drivers will take a risk knowing they might get away with it without fear of consequences.
By all means have ghosting as a race option in lobbies.

 

[CBH]

Ghosting just means drivers will take a risk knowing they might get away with it without fear of consequences.

That's right, let them take risks and at lease they will not ruin your race because this is only a game.

 

[zzz_pt]

I followed this threat for quite a while now but what I am curious about is how these "issues" are being handled on PC2, Asseto, iRacing etc.? Personally playing GT sport atm so I don't know about the other games.

Heavy damage on iRacing at least. It's a great deterrent.

I'm a big apologist of heavy damage in races. If not for all DR classes, from A to A+/S and all SR S.

I've participated in several online GT leagues/championships since GT5 and heavy damage was in all of them (including Monaco, or Madrid with sport hard tires).