- 3,561
- Theresa, Wisconsin
PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 448,992 views
A computer can not place the blame on that player who is at fault, so both players get the blame and penalize which is wrong.
I'm a big fan of heavy damage. Yes, it can stop the race of innocent people and it can be abused. But it also forces the players to drive cleaner and more prudent. All over-motivated players who are therefore constantly involved in collisions would immediately feel the consequences of their actions. That would certainly have a healing learning effect. It would take a week or two but in the long run it would improve the quality of the race.
- 160
- Scotland
- Imac_heb
But that would be at the cost of any need to overtake or being able to defend your position. Both of which are key elements of racing.
Ghosting would allow you to just drive through someone and turn online racing into online time trials.
If you like time trials, which I do, that’s great but it is not a race.
With heavy or a little damage, you are not going to stop players from ruining your race, it would most likely make Sport Mode races worst.
Hey @Dmac72 It would be so nice to overtake and defend your position in a game, but if you got a computer that can not tell who is at fault, well Ghosting is the one and only way.
In real life you have racing stewards, but in a racing game you have a computer that does not tell who is in the wright or wrong, so the computer gives the player that is the right a penalty, and that is not fair.
- 2,384
- UK
- TPC_Watto
Yeah I agree with you. Crashes, punts and dive bombs, while wrong, are all part of racing. Stewards in real life sometimes make the wrong decisions too. The penalty system should be improved as far as is possible and there are loads of other methods (such as heavy damage) to encourage safe racing.
Fordlaser seems to prefer a timetrial game rather than an actual racing game where contact happens, mistakes are made, and cars crash. It's all part of racing, as is the frustration of someone else's mistakes costing you a race.
- 2,020
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
I'm pretty sure by now that there's not a single race incident that can't have multiple ambiguous scenarios. You mentioned a car coming off of the grass and hitting another car which appears to be clear cut at first glance. However, you might as well have two cars off track and an impatient driver punting the other one who wants to reenter safely. See
?I'm not against penalties as a matter of principle. I'm all against them though as long as the detection of fault does not work clearly and rock solid for any possible scenario.
No, Fordie. Ghosting is a necessary evil right now to keep at least a few cars running
...We have awful races because SR is easily gameable and we can not get matched with likeminded people. PD has to restructure their rating systems !
Imagine a full grid of SR S drivers who really deserve SR S because they are SR S ... you wouldn't need ghosting at all 👍 !
- 1,591
- United Kingdom
- VulcanSpirit
While I can accept the current uses for it, I don't believe that Polyphony should implement
permanent ghosting for racing/practice/qualifying sessions. It would take away much of the excitement and realism of having to overtake and defend from solid, tangible cars, along with other facets of racing watto79 mentions; I'd go as far as agree with him and Dmac72 that it would end up turning races into glorified time trials.
As in real motorsport, it is possible to encounter both good and bad racecraft in GT Sport, and permanent ghosting would only make players less inclined to learn from their mistakes and race better in the future. Plus, come the World Finals, would seeing cars constantly pass through one another reduce the spectacle of the FIA live streams, and in turn affect their credibility as officially-sanctioned E-sports events?
As in real motorsport, it is possible to encounter both good and bad racecraft in GT Sport, and permanent ghosting would only make players less inclined to learn from their mistakes and race better in the future. Plus, come the World Finals, would seeing cars constantly pass through one another reduce the spectacle of the FIA live streams, and in turn affect their credibility as officially-sanctioned E-sports events?
- 3,561
- Theresa, Wisconsin
I gotta disagree. If you can have a defined set a parameters like I explained in the post you replied to there is no reason why it cannot be programmed. The game knows where braking zones are and it knows your speed, it also knows when you are in the grass, and they may be able to use tire temps to recognize a sliding car.
With car damage the offending driver will be basically removed from the race by lack of speed. He may ruin someones race but overall it should affect less of the field. I think if someone acquires damage to the point that they are so slow that they cant keep up with the field, even those who run off track they will eventually change the way they drive. They dont change their behavior now because there is no deterrent, same scenario if it was full time ghosting
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Lets say if GT7 had the same panalties as online Sports Mode in GTS, well you are still going to get demolition derby races, unless PD brings in Ghosting when it comes to contact between 2 cars.
There is no other way than Ghosting, players want to go online and feel safe, and not feel threaten out on the track.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
Whoa whoa hey whoa.
The current system has serious problems but the racing online isn't GTA Online bad. Hell, it's not even Forza bad. Yes, certain drivers are playing on the edge of the penalty system and using it to unfairly ram and dive bomb other drivers and yes, the system gets things wrong a lot but it's not a demolition derby. The collisions aren't so bad that we should throw in the towel and do nothing but ghost racing (which, by the way, isn't any kind of racing).I just want ghosting on cars behaving abnormally strange in ways that real world cars wouldn't. Ghost cars reentering the track for a few seconds, ghost cars speeding through braking zones, ghost cars at a dead standstill, and ghost cars that are dangerously slow relatively slow to the expected pace of the track, and for god's sake add an external countdown timer (that the ghosted driver can't see) to ghosted cars so we'll know when they unghost.
- 1,591
- United Kingdom
- VulcanSpirit
Online 'demolition derby races' can be found in any racing game - just take a look at the recent Codemasters F1 titles, for example. It is possible, however, to have clean and hard-fought races in GT Sport without ghosting - I've had plenty of those since I first played the game, and have continued to do so even under the current penalty system.
- 160
- Scotland
- Imac_heb
Nobody is asking for the same penalty system to be in place in GT7 or any other future releases.
But all versions of Gran Turismo have been, and must remain, racing games above all else. Not hot lap leaderbords.
I think most people, certainly on this thread and many others, want a revised or re-structured system.
As you correctly say “it is just a game” but it is a racing game first and foremost.
I think it's fair to say that most people are fine with occasional racing incidents, diving and mistakes (all this happens IRL). Ghosting works fine for low level players etc, but it makes no sense when racing with people of good level.
What players want, is to look for an overtake opportunity, and feel satisfied when you finally manage it. Not just "hey lets ghost and pass through the car in front when it's a tad slower in section 2."
The other thing most players want is that unfair behavior is actually punished.
PD needs to put :
-10s immediate penalty for "contact from behind with a speed difference superior to 40kmph in a braking zone"
-short time penalty for "bump from behind when both cars are accelerating" and remove the SR- for the car that is in front
-Short educative videos of typical contact causing situations, indicating who is wrong/right during the loading of sport races" (people need to learn that diving inside to stick your nose at the rear of car going for the apex is not a valid move)
- 160
- Scotland
- Imac_heb
So if someone is right on your tail going into a braking zone they could stay off the brakes and bump you at the start of the braking zone with a speed differential of less than 40kph. They have then slowed for the corner and picked up a small time penalty, but they are past you and you are in the gravel? Every system like that can be played.
I would rather be in a clean racing only category. I don’t care if others get punished or not, I just want better, cleaner, close racing.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
At a minimum they should provide this. There is so much confusion among the online drivers and most of the time they don't even know that they're violating the etiquette of corner rights. They will probably still drive the same way, but at least they won't be confused as to why they're receiving a penalty.
I remember the let's play of Jeff Gerstman playing the beta, and he would keep dive bombing other players (back when you would get penalized for it) and then act dismayed and confused when he would be issued a penalty for ramming a car on the exit, declaring the system "arbitrary". This guy has played racing games since the 80's and even he had no clue about how you're properly supposed to race.
- 2,620
- Brazil
I personally think the greatest tool in iracing to keep races clean is their sub system,paying every month for the game takes out most troll racers.You still have bad driving to deal with but trolls and people who treat their cars like bowling balls are mostly gone.
Reestructuring the DR SR system is the way to go,make those who drive safely and give up positions immediatly after punting someone higher rated drivers and the less heavy contact you have the more your DR goes up,the game needs to know that a car going into the back of another car full throttle is different than a few bumps in the middle of the corner.Im sure they are able to calculate that through G forces.
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- 2,620
- Brazil
I agree,only the sub fees dont tell the whole story being on consoles also atracts more of a casual player base.But if at least the driver rating was changed so truly the cleanest drivers had more benefits the game would be better.Maybe not as clean as iracing but better than the current state.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Let there be heavy damage in SR.S. PD has tried everything else. The one FIA race I did with damage sucked though. Got punted on lap 1 and was pretty much race over. Yet if it's in the daily races people will have to get adjusted to it. The car that punted me didn't get far either.
Ghosting gets abused to the max. As soon as a struggling car ghosts the next will drive right into it, trying to keep that overlap for as long as possible. If you slow down for a ghost you get rear ended as the cars behind you expect you to drive through the ghost. At the penalty zone people gamble if they can still go through a ghost getting up to speed. Yesterday I got punted off at the penalty zone after serving one of those underserved penalties. I was right on the edge, yet the GT-R flying in from behind gambled my car would stay ghosted for half a second longer than it did.
Ghosting and the penalty zone create the same problems as they're trying to solve. A damaged car simply drives slower and will have to pit to get fixed. It sucks to be behind the car that clips the wall in the DT Seaside bus stop. Yet without ghosting perhaps people wouldn't follow so close behind in a place where you can't overtake anyway. Plus the car ahead would be more careful than gambling on a little wall hit without consequences. If that means damage to the front and heavy damage from getting rear ended, perhaps next time they'll make sure not to bump the wall or spin on a kerb.
As an experiment I would like to see race C with damage, in conjunction with instant resets to before the corner for missing braking points entirely (deny the punt). Take the fun of diving into traffic away and add some real consequences to pushing the car too hard. It can't be that hard to set the maximum possible speed you can drive at each part of the track for each car to trigger a reset. If you go too fast to possibly make the corner, reset. If you're the one that bumped a car over the maximum speed threshold, reset as well. Keep your damage.
Ghosting gets abused to the max. As soon as a struggling car ghosts the next will drive right into it, trying to keep that overlap for as long as possible. If you slow down for a ghost you get rear ended as the cars behind you expect you to drive through the ghost. At the penalty zone people gamble if they can still go through a ghost getting up to speed. Yesterday I got punted off at the penalty zone after serving one of those underserved penalties. I was right on the edge, yet the GT-R flying in from behind gambled my car would stay ghosted for half a second longer than it did.
Ghosting and the penalty zone create the same problems as they're trying to solve. A damaged car simply drives slower and will have to pit to get fixed. It sucks to be behind the car that clips the wall in the DT Seaside bus stop. Yet without ghosting perhaps people wouldn't follow so close behind in a place where you can't overtake anyway. Plus the car ahead would be more careful than gambling on a little wall hit without consequences. If that means damage to the front and heavy damage from getting rear ended, perhaps next time they'll make sure not to bump the wall or spin on a kerb.
As an experiment I would like to see race C with damage, in conjunction with instant resets to before the corner for missing braking points entirely (deny the punt). Take the fun of diving into traffic away and add some real consequences to pushing the car too hard. It can't be that hard to set the maximum possible speed you can drive at each part of the track for each car to trigger a reset. If you go too fast to possibly make the corner, reset. If you're the one that bumped a car over the maximum speed threshold, reset as well. Keep your damage.
- 2,620
- Brazil
They didnt try changing the way the rating works,doesnt matter if you put heavy damage on if you are playing with careless drivers,S rating should be exclusive to people who dont dive bomb into turn 1,i actually think S rating should be more of a closed off garden,you need really good stats to enter it like 1 or two months with a low amount of crashes,the game has to reward those who try their best to be clean i would go as far to say that its better to give S rating to the driver who always finishes 10th place but is always clean than the fastest but wreckless driver.
But if you are racing with good level players, and there is contact between the 2 players, and that player in the right get a penalty, to me that is not racing and it is unfair.
Ghosting is going to stop all this unfairness you get in racing online, because it is a game and not real racing.
