PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[FPV MIC]

It could be progressive like ghosting,no damage for E and D rating, C rating and B rating has minimum damage,A and S is full damage

That would only work in the FIA races where there's hardly any SR spread. Imagine the Monza race with the E and D's catapulting into all the front runners at the first chicane. Race over for the people with high SR (and probably higher DR as well) and an easy path towards the front for the low SR's. That sort of system has to be equal for everyone.

 

[Majorwolf72]

There will be a day when every single driver doing Sport Mode will have complained in this thread. And then what?

 

[CBH]

Ghosted cars is not real racing.

You can not have real racing in a computer game, and also because of the penalty system is unfair, so Ghosting is the only answer to all the on track incidents that happen.

 

[Dorofint]

At a minimum they should provide this. There is so much confusion among the online drivers and most of the time they don't even know that they're violating the etiquette of corner rights. They will probably still drive the same way, but at least they won't be confused as to why they're receiving a penalty.

I remember the let's play of Jeff Gerstman playing the beta, and he would keep dive bombing other players (back when you would get penalized for it) and then act dismayed and confused when he would be issued a penalty for ramming a car on the exit, declaring the system "arbitrary". This guy has played racing games since the 80's and even he had no clue about how you're properly supposed to race.

Very good point. Many players have a very bad racecraft. These players do not know the simplest rules of racing. Even players who have been playing racing since the 80s. That's no wonder. Just take a look at how racing games were mostly played or are mostly played now. Ramming, divebombing and wallriding are completely normal for many players. In the singleplayer that does not bother anyone. This learned behavior they then do in online games. The GT games have all integrated a mode in which players can learn how to handle the cars. This mode has to be extended with lessons about clean behavior in the race and with other drivers. This part must become a mandatory for all players who want to play online. Without passed exams no online game.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

There will be a day when every single driver doing Sport Mode will have complained in this thread. And then what?

I'll go a step further and ask : What if everyone consistently complaining finally was as consequent as to stop racing Sport Mode ? Come on guys, I need some company out here in Dryland !

On a sidenote : This thread has been quite constructive recently imo. Thanks to everyone who shared a thought or two, some of which appear promising. PD ?

 

[Dmac72]

I'll go a step further and ask : What if everyone consistently complaining finally was as consequent as to stop racing Sport Mode ? Come on guys, I need some company out here in Dryland !

On a sidenote : This thread has been quite constructive recently imo. Thanks to everyone who shared a thought or two, some of which appear promising. PD ?

Sadly PD just don’t seem to do anything resembling community engagement.

 

[gtpierre]

But if you are racing with good level players, and there is contact between the 2 players, and that player in the right get a penalty, to me that is not racing and it is unfair.
Ghosting is going to stop all this unfairness you get in racing online, because it is a game and not real racing.

You're showing an example of the bad penalty system. Honestly I would not play GT sport if it was a ghost racing game.

The whole point of racing with other cars is that you don't just do qualy laps, but you have to deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind. If you don't like this, play a rally game.

In the end, Im in europe, so we don't have so much the problem "too few players" that leads to races where SR99 end up in the same race with SR50 so when I see incidents, its mostly SRS vs SRS.

I think a big part of the SRS that drive dirty don't realize that what they did is wrong, because they have never been involved or really interested in actual racing. If you follow GT races, if you took part in races, or did a lot of go kart (on real outdoor tracks not the indoor crap), you know the basics about what is wrong, what is right, and more importantly you learnt that it's better to give up a spot/abort an overtake than causing a crash.
This last point seems not to be understood by 90% of SRS players of DR B an A that I see in the daily races.

And this could be easily solved by "educative videos" during the loading screen.

a small contact is worth 1-2s
a big crash can waste 10-15s
waiting behind the guy in front until the next overtake opportunity 0.1-0.3s

 

[sdi_03]

You're showing an example of the bad penalty system. Honestly I would not play GT sport if it was a ghost racing game.

The whole point of racing with other cars is that you don't just do qualy laps, but you have to deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind. If you don't like this, play a rally game.

In the end, Im in europe, so we don't have so much the problem "too few players" that leads to races where SR99 end up in the same race with SR50 so when I see incidents, its mostly SRS vs SRS.

I think a big part of the SRS that drive dirty don't realize that what they did is wrong, because they have never been involved or really interested in actual racing. If you follow GT races, if you took part in races, or did a lot of go kart (on real outdoor tracks not the indoor crap), you know the basics about what is wrong, what is right, and more importantly you learnt that it's better to give up a spot/fail an overtake than causing a crash.
This last point seems not to be understood by 90% of SRS players of DR B an A that I see in the daily races.

And this could be easily solved by "educative videos" during the loading screen.

a small contact is worth 1-2s
a big crash can waste 10-15s
waiting behind the guy in front until the next overtake opportunity 0.1-0.3s

I would add the understanding how the slipstream works. It can make you think that you are way faster than driver in front of you.
Thus make you take stupid moves to get pass the "slower" driver.

 

[Dmac72]

You're showing an example of the bad penalty system. Honestly I would not play GT sport if it was a ghost racing game.

The whole point of racing with other cars is that you don't just do qualy laps, but you have to deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind. If you don't like this, play a rally game.

In the end, Im in europe, so we don't have so much the problem "too few players" that leads to races where SR99 end up in the same race with SR50 so when I see incidents, its mostly SRS vs SRS.

I think a big part of the SRS that drive dirty don't realize that what they did is wrong, because they have never been involved or really interested in actual racing. If you follow GT races, if you took part in races, or did a lot of go kart (on real outdoor tracks not the indoor crap), you know the basics about what is wrong, what is right, and more importantly you learnt that it's better to give up a spot/fail an overtake than causing a crash.
This last point seems not to be understood by 90% of SRS players of DR B an A that I see in the daily races.

And this could be easily solved by "educative videos" during the loading screen.

a small contact is worth 1-2s
a big crash can waste 10-15s
waiting behind the guy in front until the next overtake opportunity 0.1-0.3s

 

[Dorofint]

You're showing an example of the bad penalty system. Honestly I would not play GT sport if it was a ghost racing game.

The whole point of racing with other cars is that you don't just do qualy laps, but you have to deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind. If you don't like this, play a rally game.

In the end, Im in europe, so we don't have so much the problem "too few players" that leads to races where SR99 end up in the same race with SR50 so when I see incidents, its mostly SRS vs SRS.

I think a big part of the SRS that drive dirty don't realize that what they did is wrong, because they have never been involved or really interested in actual racing. If you follow GT races, if you took part in races, or did a lot of go kart (on real outdoor tracks not the indoor crap), you know the basics about what is wrong, what is right, and more importantly you learnt that it's better to give up a spot/abort an overtake than causing a crash.
This last point seems not to be understood by 90% of SRS players of DR B an A that I see in the daily races.

And this could be easily solved by "educative videos" during the loading screen.

a small contact is worth 1-2s
a big crash can waste 10-15s
waiting behind the guy in front until the next overtake opportunity 0.1-0.3s

Basically, everything is right what you write here. Only in one point do I have to contradict you. I do not think that videos alone are enough to make the players understand. Many will ignore these videos or get something to drink during the time they play. I believe there must be additional missions in which the behavior shown must also be performed. Only then is it proven that the players know the rules and can also apply them. That's why I think there should be compulsory training missions that have to be fulfilled before anyone can play online.

 

[Veinz]

You can not have real racing in a computer game, and also because of the penalty system is unfair, so Ghosting is the only answer to all the on track incidents that happen.

Well no **** it's not "real" in the literal sense but that doesn't mean it needs to be dumbed down to such an extent. Ghost races just take away the essence of what makes racing good, you are just left with a glorified time trial. Might as well throw the rating system in the garbage too, because it certainly would not be fair for people who don't do ghost racing.

 

[CBH]

The whole point of racing with other cars is that you don't just do qualy laps, but you have to deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind. If you don't like this, play a rally game.

I would really love to play in Sport Mode, but why bother playing if you got a penalty system that can not tell Right from Wrong on the track.
In close racing, how can you deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind in a computer game, when there is contact between the 2 players, and the penalties are handed out to who is at fault. That player who is in the Right end up getting a penalty and that is BS.
What if I get hit from behind and I get a penalty for just for minding my own business, that is not Fair racing is it. So PD needs to bring in Ghosting to get rid of these unfair penalties players are getting in Sport Mode.

There is no other way than Ghosting because it is a game, but some people on here think that Sport Mode racing is Real, in fact it is not.

 

[Dmac72]

I would really love to play in Sport Mode, but why bother playing if you got a penalty system that can not tell Right from Wrong on the track.
In close racing, how can you deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind in a computer game, when there is contact between the 2 players, and the penalties are handed out to who is at fault. That player who is in the Right end up getting a penalty and that is BS.
What if I get hit from behind and I get a penalty for just for minding my own business, that is not Fair racing is it. So PD needs to bring in Ghosting to get rid of these unfair penalties players are getting in Sport Mode.

There is no other way than Ghosting because it is a game, but some people on here think that Sport Mode racing is Real, in fact it is not.

But that doesn’t change the fact that what you want is basically time trialling, which is already available in the game.
Sport mode, for all it’s flaws, is still supposed to be a race and when racing there is the chance of contact.
If you look back at previous posts you’ll see that I favour removing time penalties and SR down rating completely and instead would only reward clean racing. Be that with credits, DR, trophy counts or whatever.

 

[watto79]

I would really love to play in Sport Mode, but why bother playing if you got a penalty system that can not tell Right from Wrong on the track.
In close racing, how can you deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind in a computer game, when there is contact between the 2 players, and the penalties are handed out to who is at fault. That player who is in the Right end up getting a penalty and that is BS.
What if I get hit from behind and I get a penalty for just for minding my own business, that is not Fair racing is it. So PD needs to bring in Ghosting to get rid of these unfair penalties players are getting in Sport Mode.

There is no other way than Ghosting because it is a game, but some people on here think that Sport Mode racing is Real, in fact it is not.

You talk as if the penalty system gets it wrong every single time. It doesn't. As often as I see penalties given out incorrectly I also see penalties awarded where fully deserved. It's a flawed system, but it's also an in-progress system regularly tweaked and changed.

A number of suggestions have been made as to how to improve the system, of which ghosting is one, but it's down to PD to do whatever they see fit.

You can't seem to see beyond 'no other way than ghosting' when the flaws of this have been pointed out. Yes it would remove dive bombing and punting, but would fundamentally change what the game is, in my opinion, for the worse.

Let's hope PD can keep working on the system to encourage clean racing as far is possible in a game 👍

 

[Sven Jurgens]

You talk as if the penalty system gets it wrong every single time. It doesn't. As often as I see penalties given out incorrectly I also see penalties awarded where fully deserved. It's a flawed system, but it's also an in-progress system regularly tweaked and changed.

A number of suggestions have been made as to how to improve the system, of which ghosting is one, but it's down to PD to do whatever they see fit.

You can't seem to see beyond 'no other way than ghosting' when the flaws of this have been pointed out. Yes it would remove dive bombing and punting, but would fundamentally change what the game is, in my opinion, for the worse.

Let's hope PD can keep working on the system to encourage clean racing as far is possible in a game 👍

A system that's wrong half the time is not a working system. Might as well flip a coin. Plus the cleaner you drive yourself the higher the percentage of unfair penalties you receive. The better you get, the worse the penalty system gets.

Too much ghosting is no good, all I would like to see is reset to before the corner for dive bombs. That will take the fun out of it.

 

[watto79]

A system that's wrong half the time is not a working system. Might as well flip a coin. Plus the cleaner you drive yourself the higher the percentage of unfair penalties you receive. The better you get, the worse the penalty system gets.

Too much ghosting is no good, all I would like to see is reset to before the corner for dive bombs. That will take the fun out of it.

I agree! Although I'd take a flawed penalty system over no penalty system at all. If the game could detect that a car is going into a corner way faster than is possible to take that corner and forced a reset as a result, that would be much better than excessive ghosting 👍

 

[Dmac72]

A system that's wrong half the time is not a working system. Might as well flip a coin. Plus the cleaner you drive yourself the higher the percentage of unfair penalties you receive. The better you get, the worse the penalty system gets.

Too much ghosting is no good, all I would like to see is reset to before the corner for dive bombs. That will take the fun out of it.

How would that work in a system which can’t apportion blame?
Would you re-set both players?
As can be seen in every race series the World over a 50:50 incident will have 2 people claiming it was all the other guys fault.
How does it work with door banging or draft bumping along a straight?

 

[Outspacer]

Too much ghosting is no good, all I would like to see is reset to before the corner for dive bombs. That will take the fun out of it.

I dunno about the reset, that would be quite disruptive to anyone approaching even if ghosted for a bit. Maybe a better idea would be to force slow the car (while off track) and have it make its own way back on track. That would handle Monza and Interlagos T1 cuts quite neatly.

 

[cleanLX]

I HATE HATE HATE when I am proven wrong, but when the penalty system was the most strict, it was at it's best. People avoided hitting each other. Careless people got HUGE penalties. People who went out of their way to be clean and avoid contact, excelled.

Agree.
Bring on damage as well.
Remove ghosting.
Carry your time penalty to the end of the race, or serve it during a pit stop.

 

[Dmac72]

Could it be as simple as the final position in a race always placing those who had a clean race above those who had incidents? No time penalties needed?
Haven’t thought that one through with different scenarios.

 

[fastone371]

I would really love to play in Sport Mode, but why bother playing if you got a penalty system that can not tell Right from Wrong on the track.
In close racing, how can you deal with overtaking the guy in front and defending from the guy behind in a computer game, when there is contact between the 2 players, and the penalties are handed out to who is at fault. That player who is in the Right end up getting a penalty and that is BS.
What if I get hit from behind and I get a penalty for just for minding my own business, that is not Fair racing is it. So PD needs to bring in Ghosting to get rid of these unfair penalties players are getting in Sport Mode.

There is no other way than Ghosting because it is a game, but some people on here think that Sport Mode racing is Real, in fact it is not.

Man, you just dont get it do you??!! If they were to introduce full time ghosting you are no longer racing, it's exactly like running single car laps to see where you end up on the leader board and GTS already has that, it's called qualifying. Therefore it need not be implemented to Sport Mode races.

I like Svens idea about resetting cars before the corner when they are above certain speed thresholds and missed braking points. Several issues are solved by this, there is no advantage to taking the risk, if the reset takes long enough it would be a huge disadvantage and it removes that guilty party from the rest of the group who races properly. If they ever wish to do well they must then change their behavior. Time penalties as they are are presently not a deterrent because it does create a big enough disadvantage. Some might fear that too many people may quit Sport Mode if the penalty for bad driving is too drastic, how many good players have all but quit because they are tired of the hacks? The big difference is when the hacks take over they will cause even more players to quit which is opposite than forcing the good players out.

Some instructional videos teaching players that both cars can go faster when they dont stick their nose under a car at every corner, that it's not a race to the apex, rather it's a race until the finish line of the last lap. I have let many cars thru that poke their noses in at every corner, if he runs away he deserves to be in front but usually they make a mistake and it's possible to easily get by and drive off.
Many need to learn that attempting passes by outbraking is probably the worst way to attempt a pass, I dont know why so many think that's the best way to pass, it seems that is almost everyones MO. That is also what causes so many incidents in the braking zones.
Maybe everytime a players gets a DR reset they should be required to progress thru some sort of Sport Mode racing etiquette series to race with grown ups again.

 

[Dmac72]

People also need to be aware that there is not a single braking point for a corner.
There are various points depending on car, fuel saving, driving style, brake balance, approach speed, ability..... etc
So one persons brake check is anothers slow entry for a faster exit.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

How would that work in a system which can’t apportion blame?
Would you re-set both players?
As can be seen in every race series the World over a 50:50 incident will have 2 people claiming it was all the other guys fault.
How does it work with door banging or draft bumping along a straight?

The game can calculate the maximum speed for each car approaching a corner while still being able to make it. Exceed that at any point, get flagged, if contact is imminent -> reset instead of collision, otherwise let the car slide off naturally.

Yes I would reset both players. If a car bumps another car over the speed threshold, reset both. If it was an early brake than the reset won't get triggered as both cars can still make the corner. But if it was a car that can brake late, bumping a car that needs to brake earlier (hence contact can happen) reset both to keep it fair. (And remove the chain collision effect)
Or instead of resetting these 2 right away, flag them both to prevent secondary collisions. Late brake vs early brake is often just a racing incident. Give them a chance to recover naturally, but prevent secondary collisions from missiles or stalled cars.

The game can drive 16 AI cars around the track, so it can definitely calculate braking points on the fly for one car with current tire conditions. It doesn't have to be exact, but close enough to stop dive bombs and secondary collisions from a late braker bumping a earlier braker into traffic. (while having a good chance to now get rear ended himself)

I dunno about the reset, that would be quite disruptive to anyone approaching even if ghosted for a bit. Maybe a better idea would be to force slow the car (while off track) and have it make its own way back on track. That would handle Monza and Interlagos T1 cuts quite neatly.

Resets to before the corner from a standstill won't be that much in the way. Much less than the resets we get now in the middle of the chicane. Besides if it happens in T1, those will be pretty much in last anyway.

The way ghosting works now is more disruptive as there are always several recovering ghosts in T1.

Could it be as simple as the final position in a race always placing those who had a clean race above those who had incidents? No time penalties needed?
Haven’t thought that one through with different scenarios.

I'm all for that Often I'm the only one without a red dot on Monza But nah, that's not real racing anymore. You can doodle around for 1 lap, sit the rest out in the pit for a clean race bonus and pass everyone with a penalty 👍

 

[fastone371]

People also need to be aware that there is not a single braking point for a corner.
There are various points depending on car, fuel saving, driving style, brake balance, approach speed, ability..... etc
So one persons brake check is anothers slow entry for a faster exit.

Slight varying entries do not cause huge shunts for the most part. It's the car that missed his brake point by car lengths, not feet.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The GT games have all integrated a mode in which players can learn how to handle the cars. This mode has to be extended with lessons about clean behavior in the race and with other drivers. This part must become a mandatory for all players who want to play online. Without passed exams no online game.

Agreed. I don't understand how they couldn't build out driving scenarios where penalties were turned on and etiquette explained with a basic text message before the mission. Then lock the AI on a wide cornering path and prompt the user for a late braking pass that threads the needle on the inside while leaving a car width on the exit, if the player touches the AI car - DQ - and try again. Simple.

 

[Outspacer]

Resets to before the corner from a standstill won't be that much in the way. Much less than the resets we get now in the middle of the chicane. Besides if it happens in T1, those will be pretty much in last anyway.

The way ghosting works now is more disruptive as there are always several recovering ghosts in T1.

It's just that if there are two ways to address something I think I'd always prefer a way that doesn't involve teleportation!

 

[fastone371]

[
QUOTE="Outspacer, post: 12747758, member: 235023"]It's just that if there are two ways to address something I think I'd always prefer a way that doesn't involve teleportation![/QUOTE]


There is no doubt that the "teleportation" part sucks but so many of the guilty drivers do the same thing over and over, at least the reset gets them away from the field so that their bad behavior doesnt pay dividends like it can now.

 

[cleanLX]

how many good players have all but quit because they are tired of the hacks? The big difference is when the hacks take over they will cause even more players to quit.

For sake of commenting I'll claim to be good for a moment... (ok, so, I can race clean, while racing in a sporting and competitive manner, but I'm never going to top the leader boards).
I've not raced in over a year.
PD got it right once before, but the community went bananas because they could no longer smash and bash, and PD caved to them.
as such;
It is with regret that I feel all those who want a clean/fair racing environment admit this is not the platform to provide it, and move on.
In short, PD wants $$$/participants, not to provide a real racing simulator.
Hope to see some of you on the other side... I know a few in this thread are contemplating the move as well.

Oh, so, why am I still posting here?
Hope.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

It is with regret that I feel all those who want a clean/fair racing environment admit this is not the platform to provide it, and move on.

Moved on to where?

 

[Outspacer]

There is no doubt that the "teleportation" part sucks but so many of the guilty drivers do the same thing over and over, at least the reset gets them away from the field so that their bad behavior doesnt pay dividends like it can now.

In my view of it, what we're talking about is a driver who's reached a point where they aren't going to make it round the corner unaided, so ghost them and let them go off. Once they're off, even if there isn't gravel, slow them down so they don't benefit from cutting the corner - and effectively, they serve their penalty immediately. While that goes on, they are out of the way