PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Veinz]

The logic behind that makes my head spin.

I'm sick of hackers in first person shooter games, so let's get rid of bullets so they can't get unfair kills. It's only a game.

 

[fastone371]

Ghosting will make it fair racing

A statement that I could agree with would be "ghosting will make it fair hot lapping with a full grid"
Racing it wont be.
The second you have ghosting cars will simply drive right thru other cars rather than move over to pass them. There would be nothing more ridiculous than a game where everyone simply drove thru the slower cars in front of them. We had that already at least one time when BMB was a daily race, everyone just drove thru the car in front.

 

[CBH]

A statement that I could agree with would be "ghosting will make it fair hot lapping with a full grid"
Racing it wont be.
The second you have ghosting cars will simply drive right thru other cars rather than move over to pass them. There would be nothing more ridiculous than a game where everyone simply drove thru the slower cars in front of them. We had that already at least one time when BMB was a daily race, everyone just drove thru the car in front.

PD needs to try something because the penalty system is not fair, and Ghosting is the only way. Players that don't like Ghosting are the ones that want demolition derby races to continue.

 

[Dmac72]

PD needs to try something because the penalty system is not fair, and Ghosting is the only way. Players that don't like Ghosting are the ones that want demolition derby races to continue.

Bit of a generalisation there and absolutely wrong.
That’s like saying everyone who wants ghosting can lap quickly but is incapable of overtaking.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Ghosting won't stop this

They'll simply draft through you, likely blinding you and/or screwing you up with their slipstream as they come through. People need to learn to keep their distance and learn to make a real pass instead of simply driving into the car in front. The game needs to stop giving penalties to the car ahead for simply racing.

Now add damage and the idiot behind me just killed his own race by pulling that. Instead the penalty zone made sure to let him go ahead...

 

[CBH]

Ghosting won't stop this

They'll simply draft through you, likely blinding you and/or screwing you up with their slipstream as they come through. People need to learn to keep their distance and learn to make a real pass instead of simply driving into the car in front. The game needs to stop giving penalties to the car ahead for simply racing.

Now add damage and the idiot behind me just killed his own race by pulling that. Instead the penalty zone made sure to let him go ahead...

I would love to see no Ghosting mate in game, but I can not see any other way to make it fair, so Ghosting has to be put in racing because it is a game, or have no penalties at all.
Would you like to see no penalties handed out in a racing game ?.

 

[Famine]

Players that don't like Ghosting are the ones that want demolition derby races to continue.

Players that like ghosting are the ones who cause all the accidents because they don't have the situational awareness to race properly.

That's next up on this week's Sweeping Generalisations Made for No Reason to Aggressively Defend an Opinion.


I don't care for "demolition derby races", and I don't want ghosting, because there would be no racing at all at that point. You can't defend your position from someone who'll just drive straight through you and you can't take joy in finally making the pass for position if you can just drive straight through them.

Today I had a very nice, three-lap, 30-minute battle with a Spanish driver in the Supra GT Cup, and every part of that would be lost if I'd have just been able to drive through him where he was slower and he'd have just been able to drive through me where I was slower. We may as well have called the race result after qualifying.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I would love to see no Ghosting mate in game, but I can not see any other way to make it fair, so Ghosting has to be put in racing because it is a game, or have no penalties at all.
Would you like to see no penalties handed out in a racing game ?.

No penalties would be better, they were always a source for secondary collisions and still are at the penalty zone. Any penalties should be served in the pit or added on at the end. I have no clue why PD still thinks cars slowing down in the middle of a race is a good idea, it never was.

The way SR is calculated needs to be overhauled to make it fair. Someone with average > 90 SR should not have to race someone with average < 50 SR. Yet it happens all the time. Drop SR, get pole, go back up. PD needs to break that cycle.

 

[CBH]

Players that like ghosting are the ones who cause all the accidents because they don't have the situational awareness to race properly.

That's next up on this week's Sweeping Generalisations Made for No Reason to Aggressively Defend an Opinion.


I don't care for "demolition derby races", and I don't want ghosting, because there would be no racing at all at that point. You can't defend your position from someone who'll just drive straight through you and you can't take joy in finally making the pass for position if you can just drive straight through them.

Today I had a very nice, three-lap, 30-minute battle with a Spanish driver in the Supra GT Cup, and every part of that would be lost if I'd have just been able to drive through him where he was slower and he'd have just been able to drive through me where I was slower. We may as well have called the race result after qualifying.

As I said in my post, I would love to see no Ghosting to happen, but players are getting unfair penalties in the race.
So something has to be done and Ghosting will make it fair when contact between 2 players. Really if you want to defend someone in a race and there is minor contact, don't have any penalties at all.

Would you like to see no penaltie handed out ?.

 

[Famine]

So something has to be done and Ghosting will make it fair when contact between 2 players.

No, it will eliminate all contact, and thus allow cars to freely move through each other, rendering any concept of racing moot. It's just hotlapping with everyone else's ghost.

 

[breeminator]

No, it will eliminate all contact, and thus allow cars to freely move through each other, rendering any concept of racing moot. It's just hotlapping with everyone else's ghost.

People often say this, but it's not, it's still racing. Hotlapping is when you get to have lots of attempts at producing that one perfect lap. A race is when you all do the best you can with a single effort at the same time. In a ghost race, people still make mistakes due to pressure when it's close. You can still have fuel use and tyre wear, which people will cope with differently. FH4 now has unranked ghost racing, and it's really good, some of the best racing I've experienced. Certainly massively better than today's Nations Cup ramfest. If they bring it into ranked racing (which many have asked for), and also allow ranked racing without freeroam rush, I may well go back to it in preference to GTS, which is still simply too rammer-friendly.

 

[CBH]

No, it will eliminate all contact, and thus allow cars to freely move through each other, rendering any concept of racing moot. It's just hotlapping with everyone else's ghost.

The penalties are unfair because of contact between 2 players and you call that racing ?, well I don't call that anywhere near racing, and I say it is not hotlapping with Ghosting in the game.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Ghosting won't stop this

They'll simply draft through you, likely blinding you and/or screwing you up with their slipstream as they come through. People need to learn to keep their distance and learn to make a real pass instead of simply driving into the car in front. The game needs to stop giving penalties to the car ahead for simply racing.

Now add damage and the idiot behind me just killed his own race by pulling that. Instead the penalty zone made sure to let him go ahead...

Feel gutted for you, man. Considering that the Lambo didn't twitch off the road until after it lost momentum, I'd say this is yet another case of the system misinterpreting your car as the cause of the incident happening behind. I wouldn't believe for a second that this would be classified as anything other than a racing incident in real-life.

I would love to see no Ghosting mate in game, but I can not see any other way to make it fair, so Ghosting has to be put in racing because it is a game, or have no penalties at all.
Would you like to see no penalties handed out in a racing game ?.

If we took out the penalty system altogether, all we'd end up with would be more crashfests (or should I say wreckfests) like the ones Super GT highlighted in some of his videos on Forza 7. As flawed as the current system is, I'd still rather have a system which encourages me to race sensibly online than having to put up with regular pileups that have no repercussions for the perpetrators.

Players that like ghosting are the ones who cause all the accidents because they don't have the situational awareness to race properly.

That's next up on this week's Sweeping Generalisations Made for No Reason to Aggressively Defend an Opinion.


I don't care for "demolition derby races", and I don't want ghosting, because there would be no racing at all at that point. You can't defend your position from someone who'll just drive straight through you and you can't take joy in finally making the pass for position if you can just drive straight through them.

Today I had a very nice, three-lap, 30-minute battle with a Spanish driver in the Supra GT Cup, and every part of that would be lost if I'd have just been able to drive through him where he was slower and he'd have just been able to drive through me where I was slower. We may as well have called the race result after qualifying.

Amen to that.

No penalties would be better, they were always a source for secondary collisions and still are at the penalty zone. Any penalties should be served in the pit or added on at the end. I have no clue why PD still thinks cars slowing down in the middle of a race is a good idea, it never was.

I wouldn't mind a switch to post-race time penalties, providing that Polyphony doesn't make the system as flawed as the one Codemasters use for their F1 series. Honestly, I think Rhythms's video on F1 2018 multiplayer sums up that system's issues perfectly.​

 

[watto79]

Players that don't like Ghosting are the ones that want demolition derby races to continue.

You can add me to the list of people here who don't like ghosting, and certainly don't want demolition derbies. Honestly that's an absurd assumption to make.

 

[CBH]

You can add me to the list of people here who don't like ghosting, and certainly don't want demolition derbies. Honestly that's an absurd assumption to make.

If you don't have Ghosting you are just going to have mayhem in a race , like it is now in Sport Mode races. Having damage on a car without Ghosting is going to be double mayhem for GT7 in Sport Mode like races.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Just to reiterate... clean racing IS possible in GT Sport WITHOUT permanent ghosting. Well-known players such as Super GT can testify to that.

 

[NeSSaYah]

Srsly I registered here only to whine about this penalty system. You can't reach Polyphony Digital at any point.
There site is in Japanese, if you go to Contact Us - it redirects you to SONY page.

I guess this shows a lot how they threat the community... Seriously... I want my money back...
I am a big GT series fan since GT1 on PSX but my frustration is reaching it limits.

This game is suppose to be a Real Racing Simulator. I don't recall Real Racing where you get penalties for leaving the track.
Maybe if you do it constantly during the race, you will get a penalty after you get A FEW WARNINGS.

I don't really understand why do you get a penalty after leaving the track - like leaving it doesn't cost you time in first place.
Are we playing racing game? Or stay on the track game? The mistake doesn't even have to come from you....

I had situations where I was pushed off and I got a penalty and the guy who pushed me off didn't.
How does that make any scene to anyone at Polyphony Digital?

The worst thing here is that this is quite easy to fix - you should get penalized for CAUSING CONTACT / COLLISION.
NOT FOR LEAVING THE TRACK. It's quite easy to determinate who caused the collision - the car that made a turn into another car.

Ramming from behind - it's even easier. But as usual PD knows best - why listen to the community.
We did 10 racing games - we know best. Well **** YOU PD - I'm just going to get my Assetto Corse copy just now.

Oh and the Ghosting idea is the dumbest ever. There should be damge on cars like in real racing. You hit someone - you got damage - you need to pit.
So simple, yet too complicated for Polyphony Digital.

 

[breeminator]

Ghosting won't stop this

They'll simply draft through you, likely blinding you and/or screwing you up with their slipstream as they come through.

It would stop it in that he wouldn't have been able to bump you then drive off the track to give you a penalty. People doing that is one reason why people want ghosting. If ghosting is unrealistic, surely the "bump and drive off track" technique is just as unrealistic? I'd argue the "bump and drive off track" problem is worse than any unrealism that ghosting creates, in that at least with ghosting it comes down to how fast you can drive, whereas the "bump and drive off the track" technique makes it all about how willing to "cheat" you are. I put "cheat" in quotes, as there is a school of thought that if the game lets you do it, it's legal, and therefore isn't cheating.

 

[Dmac72]

It would stop it in that he wouldn't have been able to bump you then drive off the track to give you a penalty. People doing that is one reason why people want ghosting. If ghosting is unrealistic, surely the "bump and drive off track" technique is just as unrealistic? I'd argue the "bump and drive off track" problem is worse than any unrealism that ghosting creates, in that at least with ghosting it comes down to how fast you can drive, whereas the "bump and drive off the track" technique makes it all about how willing to "cheat" you are. I put "cheat" in quotes, as there is a school of thought that if the game lets you do it, it's legal, and therefore isn't cheating.

Unfortunately ghosting ONLY comes down to how fast you can lap.

 

[breeminator]

There should be damge on cars like in real racing. You hit someone - you got damage - you need to pit.
So simple, yet too complicated for Polyphony Digital.

I've tried sim damage racing in FM7. Someone who was too far behind me to overtake legitimately cut straight across some grass to ram me from the side, sending me into a tyre wall, causing race-ending damage. Yes, that was an awesome racing experience. You can't make a game like real life without the human adjudication to back it up, and it's not economically viable to have humans adjudicating every online race.

 

[CBH]

Oh and the Ghosting idea is the dumbest ever. There should be damge on cars like in real racing. You hit someone - you got damage

Ghosting will work I guarantee that, having damage on cars is a stupid idea and it will cause double mayhem in Sport Mode. When you go off the track, you should get Reset on track where you went off.

 

[Dmac72]

I've tried sim damage racing in FM7. Someone who was too far behind me to overtake legitimately cut straight across some grass to ram me from the side, sending me into a tyre wall, causing race-ending damage. Yes, that was an awesome racing experience. You can't make a game like real life without the human adjudication to back it up, and it's not economically viable to have humans adjudicating every online race.

Sometimes that happens in racing. Probably ended their race too. Hopefully people learn from that and it happens less and less often.
So add damage, remove penalties and re-structure DR & SR for better match making.

 

[breeminator]

Sometimes that happens in racing. Probably ended their race too.

Nope, they were fine, it's the sim damage equivalent of the "bump and drive off track" technique, they'd worked out how to exploit the game by ramming someone to their own benefit.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

We did 10 racing games - we know best. Well **** YOU PD - I'm just going to get my Assetto Corse copy just now.

Oh and the Ghosting idea is the dumbest ever. There should be damge on cars like in real racing. You hit someone - you got damage - you need to pit.
So simple, yet too complicated for Polyphony Digital.

Two things. First, from what I could gather looking up YouTube videos on it, the original Assetto Corsa also has a penalty system for track limits. Good luck trying not to get worked up by that.

Second, GT Sport does have cosmetic and mechanical damage, although their use depends entirely on which races you enter. Some, like the last few Nations Cup races I did, have 'light' damage enabled, which allows the mechanical components of the car to be automatically repaired after a certain amount of time. Others have 'heavy' mechanical damage, whereby said damage will remain on your car until you pit. I do recall doing one Nations Cup race last year with 'heavy' damage enabled, and it was a challenge to get the car home in one piece, to say the least.

I'm sorry that GT Sport's current penalty system has ruined your enjoyment of the game. At the same time, however, I think you'll find that there are a lot of other simulator-style racing games with penalty systems that need to be worked on.

 

[Famine]

Srsly I registered here only to whine about this penalty system. You can't reach Polyphony Digital at any point.
There site is in Japanese, if you go to Contact Us - it redirects you to SONY page.

I guess this shows a lot how they threat the community...

Not really. It's because SIE, the game's publisher, handles all communications to and from Polyphony Digital.

The penalties are unfair because of contact between 2 players and you call that racing ?

I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means. How are penalties unfair because of contact?

, well I don't call that anywhere near racing, and I say it is not hotlapping with Ghosting in the game.

That's nice.

Who are you racing against in a race where everyone can drive through each other? Nothing anyone else does can affect your times. There's no attacking or defending, there's no compromising your line in one corner to get a better line into the next, no tactics, no under/overcut, no teamwork... You're literally only racing the stopwatch, and that's basically qualifying.

Racing is, in principle, a non-contact sport. Sometimes contact does occur - after all, you've got two or more machines with an 80sqft footprint each trying to aim for the same two-inch wide line around a three-mile circuit at 100mph+ for an hour or so - and for the most part it's benign (not every car reacts like a grenade has gone off underneath it, like F1 cars do) so, for the most part, it's ignored - even if not always by the drivers involved. Sometimes it's a little more severe and requires humans to look at the incident and see who was at fault and who gained or lost as a result, in order to determine if they need to issue any penalties to remove advantage or punish for causing a disadvantage. That's racing.

GT Sport operates under the same basic principles, but I think we'll all agree that it doesn't necessarily get it right or punish the right driver - but then one only has to look at real-world racing threads to see that the humans don't either - and if you know how it works (a lot of the issue is how it times mini-sectors, and how it calculates advantage vs. an AI car within that mini-sector) you can game it pretty effectively. Originally the game had a no-fault system, so any contact was simply punished without apportioning blame, but everyone went nuts about that one.

The solution to that is not to abandon all concepts of racing and just let cars drive through each other, it's a better penalty system.

GT Sport - like the games before it - stores driver telemetry (it's how it saves, and then reconstitutes, replays). If the game can detect excessive speed within a braking zone while on throttle before a sudden, high-g drop in speed, it should know that's someone rear-ending at a corner. High-g braking outside (or at least outside of a reasonable distance of) a braking zone is a brake check. High-g lateral movement before a sudden, high-g drop in that movement within a braking zone is a car swerving about and hitting another one. Lateral movement that suddenly terminates without high yaw should be recognised as a deliberate move into another driver (high yaw would indicate a car sliding and the steering movement is a correction). Tie all that in with the location of the other car - which it also has - and the penalty system can determine the consequences of the movement. Then, rather than using a single mini-sector to determine the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage, take the average of the next three. And flag the reason for the penalty, rather than just say there is one - "+3.000s Causing a Collision". Put it into the communication box in the bottom-left for everyone to see too.

What it needs is a more effective AI system for calculating penalties, not to hold a middle finger up at racing.

 

[NeSSaYah]

I've tried sim damage racing in FM7. Someone who was too far behind me to overtake legitimately cut straight across some grass to ram me from the side, sending me into a tyre wall, causing race-ending damage. Yes, that was an awesome racing experience. You can't make a game like real life without the human adjudication to back it up, and it's not economically viable to have humans adjudicating every on-line race.

Right.... cuz right now no one can ram you off in the first turn. This doesn't happen in Gran Turismo Sport at all, doesn't it?
Race-Ending damage? And when you are sent off to the barrier in the first turn, going from 3rd to last - thats not a game ending thing isn't it?
On TOP of that in some "endurance" races if you PIT-in early, you are not able to take fuel to end the race.
The game is forcing you to take a PIT STOP in the middle of the race, you can't do it at start as you will need to PIT in again for fuel.

Fuel is another dumb aspect of this game. Why don't they let the driver decide how much fuel does he want to take before the race or quali?
Cuz they are busy thinking of and applying DUMB **** UPDATES.

Ghosting will work I guarantee that, having damage on cars is a stupid idea and it will cause double mayhem in Sport Mode. When you go off the track, you should get Reset on track where you went off.

Dude - we are talking about REAL SIMULATOR. This is how it is in REAL Races. You get DAMAGE, not Ghost.
And the reset is another dumb idea especially that it doesn't work on all tracks, like Willow Springs.

As people mentioned countless times in this thread - Ghosting out is not a solution as we want to race. Not go through another car.
Racing is about the ability to pass slower drivers. Not to mention the fact that sometimes when you go through someone you still hit them, LIKE WTF? They can't even do it properly.

A solution to all this **** is simply give penalties for causing a collision with another car.
Simple as that. 20 years of making racing games and they don't know such basics. Makes me sick.

I've tried sim damage racing in FM7. Someone who was too far behind me to overtake legitimately cut straight across some grass to ram me from the side, sending me into a tyre wall, causing race-ending damage. Yes, that was an awesome racing experience. You can't make a game like real life without the human adjudication to back it up, and it's not economically viable to have humans adjudicating every on-line race.

Right.... cuz right now no one can ram you off in the first turn. This doesn't happen in Gran Turismo Sport at all, doesn't it?
Race-Ending damage? And when you are sent off to the barrier in the first turn, going from 3rd to last - thats not a game ending thing isn't it?
On TOP of that in some "endurance" races if you PIT-in early, you are not able to take fuel to end the race.
The game is forcing you to take a PIT STOP in the middle of the race, you can't do it at start as you will need to PIT in again for fuel.

Fuel is another dumb aspect of this game. Why don't they let the driver decide how much fuel does he want to take before the race or quali?
Cuz they are busy thinking of and applying DUMB **** UPDATES.

Ghosting will work I guarantee that, having damage on cars is a stupid idea and it will cause double mayhem in Sport Mode. When you go off the track, you should get Reset on track where you went off.

Dude - we are talking about REAL SIMULATOR. This is how it is in REAL Races. You get DAMAGE, not Ghost.
And the reset is another dumb idea especially that it doesn't work on all tracks, like Willow Springs.

As people mentioned countless times in this thread - Ghosting out is not a solution as we want to race. Not go through another car.
Racing is about the ability to pass slower drivers. Not to mention the fact that sometimes when you go through someone you still hit them, LIKE WTF? They can't even do it properly.

A solution to all this **** is simply give penalties for causing a collision with another car. Simple as that.
20 years of making racing games and they don't know such basics. Makes me sick.

Two things. First, from what I could gather looking up YouTube videos on it, the original Assetto Corsa also has a penalty system for track limits. Good luck trying not to get worked up by that.

Perhaps. But on the YT videos I have't seen people ramming each other on the straight.
Seems like the community is a bit better than in GT. I won't know until I try.

Second, GT Sport does have cosmetic and mechanical damage, although their use depends entirely on which races you enter. Some, like the last few Nations Cup races I did, have 'light' damage enabled, which allows the mechanical components of the car to be automatically repaired after a certain amount of time. Others have 'heavy' mechanical damage, whereby said damage will remain on your car until you pit. I do recall doing one Nations Cup race last year with 'heavy' damage enabled, and it was a challenge to get the car home in one piece, to say the least.

Yes - and I have no idea why they removed it. It was brilliant and should be applied to all races.

I'm sorry that GT Sport's current penalty system has ruined your enjoyment of the game. At the same time, however, I think you'll find that there are a lot of other simulator-style racing games with penalty systems that need to be worked on.

I understand that there needs to be some kind of a penalty system in such games where kids want to ram you off on each occasion. I just don't understand why it's so poor that it punishes the victim more than the aggressor. On top of that there is nothing you can do about it, even inform PD. There is some kind of "Report Player" system in game but i have no idea how or even if it works at all. Reported many people so far, I didn't get any feedback. Knowing PD - it's probably going into the SPAM mailbox or it's not working at all.

Not really. It's because SIE, the game's publisher, handles all communications to and from Polyphony Digital.

Doesn't really matter. You can't contact SIE either.

 

[breeminator]

What it needs is a more effective AI system for calculating penalties, not to hold a middle finger up at racing.

That would be great, but the question is how long will it take, and what should be done while it's in development? Would ghosting be preferable to what currently exists?

The same thing is happening in FH4, they keep trying to fix the non-ghosted racing, and all the time they're working on it, the ranked racing is basically unplayable. I don't mind them keep working on intelligent systems to enable racing with contact, but it should be seen as experimental, and we should have something playable in the meantime.

I'm not saying GTS is unplayable. Some races play out nicely. Others are simply terrible. The game at present is definitely incapable of enforcing real world racing etiquette and is reliant on players choosing to behave in a more restricted manner than the game permits.

 

[CBH]

Right.... cuz right now no one can ram you off in the first turn. This doesn't happen in Gran Turismo Sport at all, doesn't it?
Race-Ending damage? And when you are sent off to the barrier in the first turn, going from 3rd to last - thats not a game ending thing isn't it?
On TOP of that in some "endurance" races if you PIT-in early, you are not able to take fuel to end the race.
The game is forcing you to take a PIT STOP in the middle of the race, you can't do it at start as you will need to PIT in again for fuel.

Fuel is another dumb aspect of this game. Why don't they let the driver decide how much fuel does he want to take before the race or quali?
Cuz they are busy thinking of and applying DUMB **** UPDATES.


Dude - we are talking about REAL SIMULATOR. This is how it is in REAL Races. You get DAMAGE, not Ghost.
And the reset is another dumb idea especially that it doesn't work on all tracks, like Willow Springs.

As people mentioned countless times in this thread - Ghosting out is not a solution as we want to race. Not go through another car.
Racing is about the ability to pass slower drivers. Not to mention the fact that sometimes when you go through someone you still hit them, LIKE WTF? They can't even do it properly.

A solution to all this **** is simply give penalties for causing a collision with another car.
Simple as that. 20 years of making racing games and they don't know such basics. Makes me sick.

Ghosting is the only solution to fair racing. Damage will not work because it will be absolutely mayhem out on the track without Ghosting. A computer will never get penalties right, because it can not tell who is at fault.

 

[Famine]

Doesn't really matter. You can't contact SIE either.

You very definitely can. I'm not great with Polish, so I can't navigate through the Polish site very well, but here's the US one:
https://support.playstation.com/s/contact-support?language=en_US

That would be great, but the question is how long will it take, and what should be done while it's in development?

Who's to say it isn't - and who knows how long it will take? A lot of GT Sport is experimental, trying out new things to see what will work, and it's always being tweaked, fettled and reworked. The current penalty system almost certainly isn't the final penalty system, because no other version of it has been either.

Would ghosting be preferable to what currently exists?

No. It literally destroys all concept of racing.

Ghosting is the only solution to fair racing.

Fair driving maybe, but there is zero racing left if all cars become intangible all the time.

 

[fastone371]

Ghosting is the only solution to fair racing. Damage will not work because it will be absolutely mayhem out on the track without Ghosting. A computer will never get penalties right, because it can not tell who is at fault.

There is no need for you to keep reminding us of your views on ghosting, you have already made it abundantly clear that either A- you do not like competition or B- you are just not very good at wheel to wheel racing as it would be entirely eliminated with ghosting. I belong to a group that has monthly races with damage on heavy and all penalties on strong and our races are fantastic, there is no ramming and very, very little contact at all while racing hard for 90 minutes. It can easily be done with people that have the same mindset. The real problems arise when you have people who think they accomplish something by winning at all costs by wall riding, short cutting, or even ramming cars off the track because they cant pass them. When I race in GTS I could care less if I win or finish last because unlike some I realize it means absolutely nothing, it's just a game, entertainment for lack of a better word. For me the fun is having a good clean battle with someone for most the race whether it's for 1st and 2nd or 15th and 16th it makes little difference. Until we get human stewards or some incredible AI stewards it makes little difference how many wins anyone has or what stats they achieved because there is no way to seperate legit from tainted wins.