Photo GT5 prologue VS Forza 3 Demo
- Thread starter elaguila45
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Oh wait, I'm guilty as sin in this regard...
Anyways, I am getting really tire of all this talk about GT features, because honestly we don't know THAT much about them. I think that regardless of claims you should HAVE to show some form of proof, regardless of the game we are discussing be it Forza, GT, or anything else. Things are just getting out of hand.
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- Greensboro/NC/U
- jarod336/GTP_torque
- Paperorplastic/ manherollen
Well for me, coming from Forza 2 (and having played it a LOT online) the penalty system in GT5P was a godsend. Really it's not perfect, but it's a fantastic idea that will hopefully be improved upon for GT5.
The problem with Forza is you either have collisions on and people are ram-happy with no penalties to worry about (this is why 95% of Forza 2 online races had damage turned off) or you have ghosts on and you can't see anything on corners because everybody takes the same racing line and all you're looking at is the inside of somebodies car until you fly off the track because you can't see where you're going.
GT5P is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge leap forward from that and the penalty system is brilliant. I'm really hoping they've kept it in for GT5 and done some tweaking/polishing.
Oh, and by the way, the bad collision physics?
They are being worked on.
Yeah the collisions are great between cars, they just need to work on collisions between cars and walls. Like for example if the left side of your car is grinding against a wall to the left, I think the rear right of the car should swing out and your speed should decrease dramatically.
- 2,796
- São Paulo
- Dravonic
Yea the wall collisions are currently not good. They bounce of the wall unnaturally but I honestly think this will go away with the damage deformation engine. Also, grinding the guardrail do slow you down considerably. The speed you see from the TGS videos is in km/h, not mph like the trolls want you to believe.
By the way, another one:
Great PIT maneuver by the AI
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Oh brother. I'm calling ultimate BS on this one.
Dravonic and Custer85 laid it out pretty well on the Gran Turismo side. Unfortunately, the Forza arguments aren't just based on Prologue, which is an incredibly bare bones and extremely early build of GT5 - almost two years old at the core, but GT4. A game on incredibly outdated console hardware, which relied on memory cards as its data storage. This is terribly flawed, and pretty much useless as a basis for argument.
It wouldn't be so bad if people like Simple didn't either get things completely wrong, or exaggerate at the very least.
The tuning in GT is far from accurate, it is based on power multipliers and doesn't take into account how when you improve one area you can decrease another.
This is Forza dogma, handed down from "on high," but it ignores the calculations provided even in GT4 which deliver a similar performance difference. The gear ratio adjustments you can make in GT4 are rather limited, though still with a wide range for each gear. You can't reduce each gear ratio to the extreme as you can in Forza so that your final gear pegs at 35mph, but then I sincerely doubt this is possible in reality anyhow. You can even alter the weight balance of cars in GT4. I'm unaware of this capability in Forza at all.
I can think of many areas in the physics area that Forza does better than GT
Frankly, this seems to be mostly a matter of opinion, but the easy drifting in Forza doesn't proclaim realism in the physics model. In the F3 demo, I can still catch a slide with a jerk on the wheel. Street cars still refuse to lean around turns, as if they have rock hard racing suspensions, and this is something Forza has always failed at for some reason. Understeer is a welcome addition to the physics, but other than that, it still feels like Forza. This isn't a bad thing necessarily, it's just T10's flavor.
Prologue does still bog in turns for just about every car which isn't equipped with racing tires. But after some experience in my Supra over the summer, I'm beginning to wonder if PD hasn't got that mostly right too. Others like Scaff have already dissected the physics character of the general Gran Turismo game, but with Prologue, nearly every area has seen a lot of work. In fact, it's to the point that when I got bored with GTR Evo or Live For Speed and went back to Prologue, the simulation feel was remarkably similar. I don't get this with the F3 demo.
You also forgot to mention AI at all. I have little doubt as to which game will be superior in this area.
On this, it's clearly another matter of preference. Other than Forza 1's murderous tards, the Forza bots have driven like teenagers, rather skillful but a bit reckless and immature. Prologue's bots tend to be like Toca's, rather polite and bland, though they usually won't yield to you, and I have been rammed plenty by both. I see little to cheer for one over the other, unless you like your bots to bash around a bit.
I know a few have stated that the F3 demo has awesome graphics, but this is a view I just don't share. There are a lot of textures and objects, but to me, rather than looking more detailed, it just looks cluttered. In fact, my initial reaction, which I still hold to, is that Monserrat looks like a scene from Half Life 2. It doesn't help that those mountains look like something from a fantasy world, because the graphics aren't photo real, but heavily retouched by digital artists. They do look interesting, but realistic? No. In fact, the first replay caused an adverse reaction for me. Everything looked plastic and CG, like some kind of elaborate movie prop, even the cars. I did get used to it, but that underlying effect remains. In contrast, except for the most obvious examples in Prologue, the replays look like real life racing films, and in race, they look like live video.
Forza still has an edge in engine sounds, but those flatulant tire sounds are horrible. Seeing a Cooper make the noises of a truck in a slide just makes me want to gag. But at least when you say you're farting around a track, now you'll be accurate. Tire deformation might only be cosmetic, it's hard to say right now.
In Forza 2 and 3 demo, there are moments which suggest you're looking at something real. In Prologue, there are moments which make you realize you're watching a game, and this aspect doesn't escape many people.
All the other details are up in the air. I won't address Forza's damage implementation because that causes Simple' Sims blood pressure to explode, despite my hands on experiments and experience of nearly a year with FM2. But with everything discussed from a Forza perspective, FW3 is usually given a free pass, while the worst is assumed of GT.
Without a doubt, F3's livery editor and racing mod body kit system will be stellar. The modification system is extremely deep, even to including different tire brands with slight variations in tire dynamics, something from F2 I'm assuming will carry over to 3. The damage system doesn't seem to be much different, but the sometimes startling freeze for an instant while F2 sorted out what had happened in a collision is apparently gone in the F3 demo, thank God. Cars with moving aero parts... sorry.
Cockpits are bland but present on all cars, though lacking much driver animation. Driver views are pretty much the same except for cockpit view, and don't offer any adjustment. The variety of cars is rather extensive, and more focused on performance makes, something which most fans desire anyway. Supercars such as Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Koenigsegg and others are well represented, as are race cars. The ability to paint liveries over any race car this time will be a huge boon to the livery and online team crowd. The half career, half sandbox style of progression sounds intriguing, and fortunately, even though leveling is present, all cars are unlocked in the showrooms this time around, huzzah.
The race courses are still something of a mystery, though there should be an abundance of them. However, it seems that some courses such as the Forza Test Track and others are going to be milked a lot with alternate and reversed layouts to bring the track count to 100. I'm leary of the DLC plans, as Forza 2's downloads were rather underwhelming, padded with a number of cars no one wanted, and a number of variations of cars already included. On a disc, this isn't much of an issue, but when you have to pay for it, it rankled quite a few people, especially at the original asking price. The frequency of planned car packs doesn't encourage me in this regard. Track DLC was essentially useless, save for time trials and online racing, but hopefully this won't be an issue in F3.
Online selling and trading with the Online Store Front is a big step up from F2's Auction House, in that you can essentially sell about anything, from liveries, individual decals, even tuning setups! Trading and gifting look to be as easy as ever. I'm still unsure how beefed up the online racing system is, but they promise numerous improvements there too.
One thing though, you'd better have a hard drive to experience all the content, because a number of major tracks and cars are on that second DVD, including a brand new and super accurate Nurburgring Nordschleife. Cough.
All in all, Forza 3 is stacking up to be a marvelous addition to the franchise.
Which brings us to GT5. As has been pointed out, a lot, we know, but there's just about as much that we don't. Journalists got a sneak peek at some GT5 goodies post-TGS which had them applauding, such as a look at the improved damage modeling, and there were a few goodies they still weren't at liberty to talk about despite the NDA lifting. Something sure had them excited.
We know what "the sensei" wants to include.
- Photo quality graphics and realistic physics.
- A wealth of cars and tracks, more than ever.
- A greatly expanded GT Mode, or even Season and Career Mode.
- Realistic damage on all cars.
- Realistic environments, including time of day progression through night, weather - perhaps variable, and other things.
- The ability to modify and paint your car as much as you can in real life.
- A comprehensive online system, which encourages the creation of entire online communities, teams and leagues.
- Incredibly enhanced Photo and new Movie Modes.
- Damage has to be approved by the car makers. Microsoft might be able to afford to buy agreements with the car companies, but will Kazunori be able to finess as much with diplomacy? Will street cars suffer simple bumps and dents, with more realistic mechanical damage, or will it be more than that?
- Will engine sounds be improved? Prologue was a nice step up, so what will they polish up after two years have passed?
- What will the NASCAR and WRC championships be like? Will there be point to point racing in Rally, and will we be racing against a clock, or will we have an opponent again? Can we choose?
- Will Race Modification return? Will we get a Livery Editor? Or will online teams be stuck arguing over which cars they have a right to?
- Will there be time of day changes, at least for endurance races, or will there be fixed time of day settings? What form will weather take, if we get it at all?
- How extensive will the online system be? Will we be able to sell, trade or give cars and other items? Will online race event and league building tools be available?
- Heck, will there be used cars again?
So what we have is an incredible half mystery. We know just enough to keep us ravenous yet again for information. Most of us have little doubt that The Master will produce once again a Masterpiece, we're just a bit angsty over getting all the goodies we can possibly get. Better than Forza? Most of us will probably prefer it, but at least next spring, Forza fans won't be talking down to a five year old GT4 on an outdated system, or a prelude of a game without most of the content.
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Where are people coming from the fact that GT5 will actually have weather and day/night cycles, huh? We have not seen even one proof of this. Just because KY said they were working on it, doesn't mean it will be implemented in the game. Hell, they were working on online for GT4...
Honestly, I would love to see what GT5 would had ended up like if PD had only spent two years in it...
Honestly, I would love to see what GT5 would had ended up like if PD had only spent two years in it...
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- 7,830
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- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
We would probably have a small game with a decent if limited selection of cars, a handful of tracks, and a load of bugs and patches. Reminds me of a certain game on the 360...
I've pointed out that weather is probably going to be a problem, if you want to load up GT5 with more than 12 cars on track with lots of collision and deformation physics. We might have specific rain races, we might not have weather at all until GT6. We simply don't know at this point, but it has been mentioned in numerous articles and interviews with Kazunori that it's in the roadmap, so we'll see.
How do you know you're going to have tire brands in FW3? You take that for granted, don't you.
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We would probably have a small game with a decent if limited selection of cars, a handful of tracks, and a load of bugs and patches. Reminds me of a certain game on the 360...
That's what I needed to know. It all comes down to the fact that without those three extra years, GT (for you) would suck, while for me, it would still be a great game.
Could you please point out where did I said that? Not assumptions, explicitely. By the way, FM3 isn't the game being defended to the extreme here.
And comparing tire brands with those two features I pointed out? Seriously? I will save you a post, though. Both game should be under the same rules of comparisons. I'm not aware if FM3 will have tire brands, so if it's based on interviews alone and no actual photos, then it should be ruled out of the map, like weather and day/night cycles for GT.
pricey2003
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It would probably be a lot smaller and have an unpolished 'rushed' look about it.
Your right there, it would look a lot like Forza 3.
/////////edit: TD beat me to it
- 2,796
- São Paulo
- Dravonic
You mean we can't trust interviews? I'm sure we should be mindful at them, and that we should keep in mind when they are talking about stuff they want to put in the game and not necessarily will be. We've been there before and we got disappointed latter.
However ruling them out entirely is really a stretch don't you think? Specially when multiple interviews say the same thing.
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- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
With... certain posters, that really isn't true at all.By the way, FM3 isn't the game being defended to the extreme here.
I'll save you a post.
And Dravonic, it seems that between two certain games, rules will always be one sided, depending on which side the poster is on. I'll admit that I have extreme prejudice, but I will also admit that I will give any game an even break. Shift, I knew inside was probably going to be a disappointment just from videos which didn't seem right, but I didn't post endlessly about it. Even when it was out, I didn't leave a trail of "I told you so" posts in my wake. Forza 3, I knew was going to be pretty much Forza 2 with more textures and a bit more polish. When it comes out, I'm not going to leave a trail of "I told you so" posts in my wake.
However, after the incessant putting down of Gran Turismo 5... I might reconsider.
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- GTP_Royalton
There isn't a track in GT5P like the Forza demo track. Eiger is made up of a bunch of hilly plains with scattered trees and mountains in the distance. Comparing it to the Forza 3 demo track is not fair. Trial Mountain or Deep Forest vs the Forza 3 demo track would be a much fairer comparison.
Besides, the FM3 demo track looks nothing like reality in my opinion. The enviorments would get an A+ from me if it they were made for a fantasy Japanese RPG.
Lets compare a Gran Turismo 5 city track to a Forza 3 city track. In my opinion Gran Turismo is at times indistinguishable from real life in the video, while the Forza New York track looks like a nice looking game. That may be the look some people prefer, though.
Gran Turismo 5 Tokyo R246
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue London
Forza 3 New York City
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- 2,796
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- Dravonic
You misunderstood me. Look here:
While forza backgrounds have more polygons and more detailed textures, they don't look real as you said. That's one of the reasons why PD can have a better looking game. That's one place where their ingenuity shows. They know how to make a realistic looking track using less resources, while Turn 10 use far too much resources (what hinders the quality of their cars) and can only achieve a cartoony looking track.
What I mean is, even though GT looks a lot more real, Forza still has more details in their tracks even though they look like a game.
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McLaren
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You're only listing things Forza 3 doesn't have, some of them being absolute retarded ones.
Having 1 Formula 1 car, and gear changes isn't an advantage. No one will buy GT for those 2 things.
The Nascar license isn't really an advantage as Turn10 have stock cars in their game, too. The fact that they are going to be paint-able means people will be creating real life stock cars in the game.
I also don't consider 1080p an advantage. Your average consumer doesn't care at all about that in a racing game.
In the real truth, you're just being another biased fanboy listing each & every detail about GT as a plus over Forza, and not including the fact that Forza has a superior online community. The leaderboards, and game modes available are easily applicable as Advantages towards Forza if you think 1 F1 car is.
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- GTP_Royalton
We haven't seen what type of community features PD has for GT5 yet. We haven't seen GT5's modes or leaderboards. So I cannot say advantage Forza. Yet.
Also it would not surprise me at all if GT5 gets another F1 car or two from a different manufacturer from the 2007 season. Kaz has said this is possible but hard to do.
If you can name any advantages that Forza 3 has over GT5 that you know for a fact GT5 cannot match or beat then please, list them.
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- Dravonic
Like you, I also have a preference and I'm not trying to hide it. Again like you, I also give both games an even break. I'm not a crusade here to make GT look good above all else like the fanboys do, and some want us to believe. Hell, the game has a lot of flaws that I hope will be worked on and I'm not trying to mask them. My only problem is with some people taking things for granted to try to make the game look bad for whatever reason. We barely have any info on the game, but they speak as if it will be GT4 with prettier graphics, more cars, bad online, and nothing else.
To those people I say:
While I do understand it may look like I'm biased, what I'm telling you to do which is focusing only on what we know about both games, is hardly a biased rule. If you don't know it, you just don't talk about it or make it very clear that you're speculating. Unless you don't want to be taken seriously, and want to risk looking stupid when the info arrives, like many forza fanboys already have.
Even with all those recent quotes from Kazunori where the damage is looking far better than Forza's, you don't see me preaching on how GT5 has better damage, do you? I'm following to the letter what I'm telling you to. Also, look back at my posts and you will see that where GT fails, I agree it fails.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,526
- Texas
The leaderboards & community will be an advantage. That's fact. Nowhere has Kaz said anything about his livery editor or his leaderboards being anywhere as diverse as Forza. Adding to that, I'm pretty sure the livery editor has whatever GT might consider an "editor" beat as well. 1,000 layers on each side of the car, allowing the recreation of anything is something I know Kaz will not be after.
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- GTP_Royalton
All Kaz has to do to beat Forza's livery editor is make the car skins exportable to a .tga file or something and its all over.
Updated list.
Advantage GT5
- 1080p
- Graphics (GT5P looks better)
- more cars on track at once (2x that of FM3)
- Car Count (2x that of FM3)
- NASCAR license
- WRC license
- Formula 1 car
- Rally racing
- Day/night racing
- Weather
- Gear change animations
- car animations (moving spoilers)
- Animated pit crew
- Ability to look around cockpit
- G25/27 support
Advantage Forza 3
- skid marks (maybe GT5 won't have it)
- tire deformation (maybe GT5 won't have it)
- Porsche License
- V8 Supercars
- Leaderboards
- Community
- Livery editor
- 2,523
- South Florida
- Organ-Donor
Wow, some people spend more time talking about pro's of Forza and faults with GT5, I don't get it. Its one thing to defend a game you enjoy and correct inaccurate statements, but when 99% of people's posts on a GT site revolve around Forza it makes me wonder what the real reason they are here for. You guys here to enjoy disscussion about Gran Turismo 5 or just here to defend precious Forza and point out GT's flaws compared to it?
McLaren
Premium
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Yes, 99% of my posts revolve around Forza. All 19,800 of them.
Some people should think before they post.
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McLaren
Premium
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There's only been 2 people here correcting folks here on Forza within the last 20 posts. Drav & I, which means I am in the "some people", or why else would you suddenly post such crap after my posts with Earth.
Go back & take my advice.
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- Dravonic
That's not a fact. That's what you think. Unless you have access to insider info, all we know about the Livery Editor is that Kaz would like to have one. We don't even know if it will be in the game. How you escalate that to worse livery editor and call that a fact is beyond me.
Don't get me wrong. I share the same opinion. I just don't make assumptions and try to pass them out as facts.
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- Dravonic
I kinda agree with him. Even though your post is very broad and is not necessarily referring to
I agree with you though. I don't know myself why I bother with this GT vs Forza stuff.
EDIT: Well I stand corrected. Rereading it I realize it wasn't referring to me at all.
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