Photos from Iraq

[milefile]

muslims are like big family, theyll protect their "brothers". They all act like Saddams sons, they run into bars and kill themselves for him.

This is more than a little bigoted.

the Iraqis are not giving up their country

This only shows you don't even know what the goal is in Iraq. Nobody wants them to "give up their country".

Terrorists are killing Iraqis. They are killing anyone they can. Their so-called "ideology" is a ruse as far as I am concerned. Terrorists are resisting any hint of stability in Iraq. I think your anger would be better directed toward them.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by K_Speed
I said that not all hated us before, but now its worse. And its not just some Iraqi people getting killed and its not an excuse thats true....

And just because some Arabs hate us, do you think it is justified? The President of Egypt told the world this week that a large part of Arab resentment against the US is due to our 'support' for Israel. This strikes me as a deeply unreasonable.

Bin Laden is a Saudi. Should I hate all Saudis because his terror network killed 3,000 of my people? Blaming the US because of Sharon's actions in Palestine is the same thing. On 9/11 Palestinians were seen cheering in the streets. Should I hate them too, since they support the murder of innocent people in my country?

And don't dodge this question like all the other punters in this thread. Answer it.

Originally posted by K_Speed
Ahh great we killed his sons, great, in the Muslim religion everyones a brother. They all act like Saddams sons....

This entire paragraph is meaningless gibberish. Do you have a point to make or do you just like the sound of your own typing?

Originally posted by K_Speed
And no IM not saying my dad is against americans. He went to visit Iran a couple of times. And the people over there are scared of the US. There country is already ****ed up and they couldnt survive an attack. He's basicaly upset. Like me.

Try to construct a coherent argument or at least some semblance of a point, please. There are no invasion plans on the table for Iran, nor will the US public support one. So what the hell are you upset about?


M

 

[K_Speed]

Originally posted by milefile
This is more than a little bigoted.


This only shows you don't even know what the goal is in Iraq. Nobody wants them to "give up their country".

Terrorists are killing Iraqis. They are killing anyone they can. Their so-called "ideology" is a ruse as far as I am concerned. Terrorists are resisting any hint of stability in Iraq. I think your anger would be better directed toward them.

you have to explain everything so perfectly....im talking about the people that are against the US in Iraq, they wont give up.

Yea and these so called "few" innocent people getting killed in Iraq, their family is going to hate america for that...and Spain and England...great we just helped to stop terrorism.

Well yes, I do have to keep in mind that were helping Iraq here but are also concentrating on getting rid of terrorism there. But you cant just kill some people and blow up some buildings and then think that terrorism is gonna be over, no, it might even get worse.

 

[Dave A]

You all do know that this thread will never die unless it's closed, I've seen threads like this before, theres always rightminded people for and against, and theres always jerks for and against, you just have to accept, that whats happened has happended if you like it or not, what will happen is out of your control completely if you live outside of the US, so why get too involved anyway. For thoes that are against what happened and live in the US vote for a different leader, I have nothing against people on either side who try to reason on their point, if thats done, you don't need this many pages of arguments. But the arguments come because of the jerks, the people that have to argue because it's the only way of not having to back up their opinions which they probably can't.

 

[milefile]

But you cant just kill some people and blow up some buildings and then think that terrorism is gonna be over

So it's a good thing that's not the plan, right? You do realize that the plan is to grow a democratic Iraq, by Iraqis and for Iraqis? Dead people and blown up buildings are merely growing pains. No nation has ever become a democracy without war and death. The greatest moments in history are written in blood and steel.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by live4speed
You all do know that this thread will never die unless it's closed, I've seen threads like this before, theres always rightminded people for and against, and theres always jerks for and against, ...

I don't post in threads like these expecting to change anyone's mind. I post because I enjoy debate. This thread has some reasonable ant-war content in it and I feel it is part of my duty as an American to discuss it rationally. Montoya, for example has taken some heat from the others, but I think debating with him is worth my looking into this thread.


M

 

[K_Speed]

yea this gonna be my last post in the topic...were not gonna get anywhere and ive said my oppinions enough, like the others,


btw Montoya ****ing rox

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by K_Speed
btw Montoya ****ing rox

Of all the anti-war people in the thread, he is the only reasonable one.

Now, are you going to ANSWER MY QUESTION or pull a Spain and tuck tail?


M

 

[milefile]

Just once I would like to see an anti-American, liberal poster stand up to the facts. Just once. I think this must be why there is a conspicuous absence of liberal opinion shows. Apparently they lack the tenacity to argue a point with facts, history, and civil language.

 

[Carl.]

What about the insistence of Jose Maria Aznar's Government in accusing the ETA for the attack even if after it became very clear that it was Al Quaeda? Don't you think the population's wish for a government that could at least give them a clear picture of the situation, instead of putting their heads underground after the attacks was a significant factor too??

The events I was reffering earlier from the Cold War were what happened during the Cuban crisis. Now tell me... do you all think that America reacted cowardly because they did compromise on this situation?? Don't you think the USSR deserved a great lesson from America for placing Nuclear Missiles at our doorsteps?

I know that the war against terrorist is very different from the cold war, I just think the outcome could be exactly the same, and we'd better be sure about the outcome of our actions before we attack our enemy. I'm just wondering in my coward mind what would happen if Al Quaeda really get their hands on WMD, after they managed to kill thousands of people with a few knives... As some of you almost hope, an entire American city erased from the map by a nuclear bomb without having a precise country to strike back would sure rally all the occident for going the hard way with the muslim world, now wouldn't it?

Yes, I'm glad that there were some "knee jerks" at that time to find better ways to win the war.

 

[Tercel_driver]

Originally posted by milefile
So it's a good thing that's not the plan, right? You do realize that the plan is to grow a democratic Iraq, by Iraqis and for Iraqis? Dead people and blown up buildings are merely growing pains. No nation has ever become a democracy without war and death. The greatest moments in history are written in blood and steel.

Unless you are a fool, who believe what all the media says to you, the real objectives were:

1-Capture Sadam so Bush Jr. and give him to his father as his birthday present.

2-Control a sizable part of the oil market.

Gezz, you people always think whatever this country does is always right. I guess that is the fact of being a foreigner.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
Don't you think the population's wish for a government that could at least give them a clear picture of the situation, instead of putting their heads underground after the attacks was a significant factor too??

Nope. I think they voted themselves out of involvement with US policy. Simple as that.

Originally posted by jpmontoya
Don't you think the USSR deserved a great lesson from America for placing Nuclear Missiles at our doorsteps?

And blow up the world? Why would we have wanted to do that?

Originally posted by jpmontoya
I'm just wondering in my coward mind what would happen if Al Quaeda really get their hands on WMD, after they managed to kill thousands of people with a few knives...

Because they will use them regardless of what we do. They are not interested in having their demands met, they are interested in our complete and utter destruction. We stand to gain nothing by "stepping lightly" or even begging the world's forgiveness for our 'sins' and pulling every single soldier back to US soil. They will attack us anyway, whenever they can feel they can.


M

 

[K_Speed]

yea this gonna be my last post in the topic...were not gonna get anywhere and ive said my oppinions enough, like the others,


btw Montoya ****ing rox

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by K_Speed
yea this gonna be my last post in the topic...

Then answer my question or get the hell out of here.


M

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
As some of you almost hope, an entire American city erased from the map by a nuclear bomb without having a precise country to strike back would sure rally all the occident for going the hard way with the muslim world, now wouldn't it?

Does this paragraph read the way I think it reads? Are you serious? Don't make me change my mind about you.


M

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by K_Speed
yea this gonna be my last post in the topic...were not gonna get anywhere and ive said my oppinions enough, like the others,


btw Montoya ****ing rox

Well, thanks for the compliment, still I just want to put my opinion here and compare it against the other, not win a "who's smarter" or "know-it-all" contest. Some of the people I had arguements with gave me new angles to look at the current issues, and I have much respect for them, even if our views may differ on many points. Some debate like this can be very constructive, as long as it stays away from pointless personnal attacks or insults.

I'm still amazed at being able to hear points of view and discuss issues here with peolple scattered around the world, even on a game forum... this wasn't accessible just a few years ago.

But the internet causes also another issue... there is so much biaised information on both sides in so many sites and forums that it's becoming very hard to have a clear picture of what's currently happening.

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Does this paragraph read the way I think it reads? Are you serious? Don't make me change my mind about you.


M

I was reffering to this:

Will they try it again? Will they try it in America? I almost hope so because I thoroughly believe that most Americans will only be hardened by it.

And the fact I think that if terrorists strikes again, it will probably be on a larger scale than 9/11... I think we should avoid it at all cost, and that we should see all possible ways to solve it, even the ones that require some sort of compromise, which is more than often called knee-jerking lately.

 

[Kent]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
Some of the people I had arguements with gave me new angles to look at the current issues, and I have much respect for them, even if our views may differ on many points. Some debate like this can be very constructive, as long as it stays away from pointless personnal attacks or insults.

This is the sort of thing that makes the difference between you and them in my opinion.

Well, actually not that alone.

You've also been good about supporting what you say compared to just walking in, throwing out a couple of personal insults, a couple of radical unsupported political statements and then walking out without anything to say... of course, it is always followed by a "I'm out of here" only to be followed by a post a few days later that is right back on the same pattern as before.

montoya, you hold yourself well, but think about this... Sometimes, just sometimes, people are judged by the company they keep...
Responsible and respectable posters should not be brought down by immature and irresponsible posters. (not to mention insulting.)

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Because they will use them regardless of what we do. They are not interested in having their demands met, they are interested in our complete and utter destruction. We stand to gain nothing by "stepping lightly" or even begging the world's forgiveness for our 'sins' and pulling every single soldier back to US soil. They will attack us anyway, whenever they can feel they can.
M

Agreed. This isn't debatable, we probably won't calm down much terrorists. But we shouldn't act in a way that push more muslim to go on the other side, wanting to be David against Goliath... Without the support of the global muslim population, they will be easier to hunt down. This would be different if they were from only one country... the problem is that they are scattered around the world in areas that we can't get complete control over... if we can't contain terrorists in a country smaller that some states... how can we be confident we that will eradicate terrorism in the entire Middle East alone??

 

[milefile]

Unless you are a fool, who believe what all the media says to you, the real objectives were:

1-Capture Sadam so Bush Jr. and give him to his father as his birthday present.

2-Control a sizable part of the oil market.

Gezz, you people always think whatever this country does is always right. I guess that is the fact of being a foreigner.

Unless you are a fool, you'll know that you have absolutely zero credibility around here so buzz off.

:middle finger:

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
I was reffering to this:

I see. That is a reckless statement and I am surprised to hear it. But putting it in context of a nuclear attack is certainly not the author's intention, I am certain.

Originally posted by jpmontoya
And the fact I think that if Terrorist strikes again, it will probably be on a larger scale than 9/11... I think we should avoid it at all cost, and that we should see all possible ways to solve it, even the ones that require some sort of compromise, which is more than often called knee-jerking lately.

If you are referring to Iraq as a knee-jerk, I decline to see it so. I think Iraq is shockingly forward thinking. The benefits of a stable and successful Iraq will be felt for the rest of history. Afganistan by comparision was closer to a knee-jerk reaction.

Besides which, there is no such thing as compromising with terrorists. They are willing to kill children --other Muslims, in fact-- what makes you think even the most broad and sweeping US policy change will alter their course??


M

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
What about the insistence of Jose Maria Aznar's Government in accusing the ETA for the attack even if after it became very clear that it was Al Quaeda? Don't you think the population's wish for a government that could at least give them a clear picture of the situation, instead of putting their heads underground after the attacks was a significant factor too??

Originally posted by neon_duke
He didn't win the election because of that platform until Al-qaeida put the fear into the Spanish public. If the prior cabinet had not waffled badly about the suspected perpetrators - if they had continued to be direct and up front with their people - they would still be in power. The were voted out due to a feeling of being misled that appeared entirely after the bombings occurred, not before. Until they blew it, the prior governtment was running 65 to 35 or so in the polls.

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by GoKents
montoya, you hold yourself well, but think about this... Sometimes, just sometimes, people are judged by the company they keep...
Responsible and respectable posters should not be brought down by immature and irresponsible posters. (not to mention insulting.)

Believe me, this is on both sides... and I tend to ignore useless posts wherever they are with me or against me (unvolunteer play of words here... ) My STFU silent wishes come on poster from my side sometimes...

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Tercel_driver
Unless you are a fool, who believe what all the media says to you, the real objectives were:

1-Capture Sadam so Bush Jr. and give him to his father as his birthday present.

2-Control a sizable part of the oil market.

Gezz, you people always think whatever this country does is always right. I guess that is the fact of being a foreigner.

Jeez, you knee-jerk anti-US liberals will believe anything Lyndon Larouche says, won't you?

Say something meaningful and back it up with some logic, and someone might take it seriously.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
But we shouldn't act in a way that push more muslim to go on the other side, wanting to be David against Goliath...

That I agree with that whole heartedly. But it is improtant to realize when a Arab is angry about something that makes sense, and something that doesn't.

US bombs have wandered off course and killed civilians. That is messed up. They should be pretty PO'd about this. Yes, if I were an Iraqi, I'd be annoyed with coalition soldiers searching my house, tearing up my sh$t looking for terrorists. I'd even be willing buy being upset with occupation because it is humiliating to a Muslim --hey, I want our guys out of Iraq too- but not until the job is done.

But hating the US because Sharon does whatever he pleases in Palestine, that's hugely unreasonable. I already explained why.

Hating the US because it is 'arrogant' is no reason at all. Hating the US because it has soldiers on holy islamic soil is crap. Hating the west because fundamentalists don't like western culture is more crap. I don't like seeing women in burkas, should I run out and burn an Iranian flag?

There is a difference between justified anger in the Arab world and unjustified. Just because they feel it doesn't mean I should care.


M

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
If you are referring to Iraq as a knee-jerk, I decline to see it so.
M

No... I am reffering to the fact that every other possible ways to deal with terrorism than invading Iraq as we did is called knee-jerking.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jpmontoya
No... I am reffering to the fact that every other possible ways to deal with terrorism than invading Iraq as we did is called knee-jerking.

Can you please re-state that? I'm not following you.


M

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by neon_duke

Sorry, I only had read the later posts, I didn't get up to this one. Still this doesn't make them cowards, they lost faith in their governement because they did handle the issue badly...

 

[Carl.]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Can you please re-state that? I'm not following you.
M

All countries or people that are against the war in Iraq have been called knee-jerks everywhere by supporters of this war...

 

[Dave A]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
I don't post in threads like these expecting to change anyone's mind. I post because I enjoy debate. This thread has some reasonable ant-war content in it and I feel it is part of my duty as an American to discuss it rationally. Montoya, for example has taken some heat from the others, but I think debating with him is worth my looking into this thread.


M

I didn't mean the thread was pointless, I just meant that it would never end, most of the people here including you and Montoya are not in my definition of the jerks of which there hasn't been many here compared to similar threads on other sites, but one or two is all it takes.