- 87,049
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Photos from Iraq
- Thread starter rinard
- 489 comments
- 12,616 views
- 1,271
Famine: Okay, first of all, I really don't see how Mesopotamia being the birth place of civilization, has anyting to do with TODAY. Are you saying 'once civilized, always civilized'? Now, i personally wouldn't call the ENTIRE nation of Iraq, barbaric. BUT there are plenty of people in that country who are as about as advanced as Middeval fuedal serfs. And the nation as a whole is plainly not what it used to be, and hasn't been in years. So your whole thing of bringing up bronze age history, well, was pretty pointless to me.
Now my referernce to 'those people' in my other post, was meaning poor, 3rd world, Middle Eastern muslims. I know that there are a lot of people who basically view ALL Muslims and Arabs as lesser than us. And these are the people who did not react to the contractors they way they are about the prisoners, because they were not surprised by what was done to the contractors. which, is not the way it should be. But we can't change that in an instant. We can do our best to try and tell people why they should be more outraged, but that's all we can do. and must i say again:
would murdering 1000 innocents not be so bad because Hitler murdered millions?
because all of you downplaying this incident, 'because it could have been worse', are saying yes to the above question.
Now my referernce to 'those people' in my other post, was meaning poor, 3rd world, Middle Eastern muslims. I know that there are a lot of people who basically view ALL Muslims and Arabs as lesser than us. And these are the people who did not react to the contractors they way they are about the prisoners, because they were not surprised by what was done to the contractors. which, is not the way it should be. But we can't change that in an instant. We can do our best to try and tell people why they should be more outraged, but that's all we can do. and must i say again:
would murdering 1000 innocents not be so bad because Hitler murdered millions?
because all of you downplaying this incident, 'because it could have been worse', are saying yes to the above question.
- 87,049
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
To coin a phrase:
I made no other claim or statement than this. Your extrapolation of my intent is thus puzzling.
I may add that there is a general rule of thumb for internet debate. That rule is "The first person to bring up Hitler instantly loses the argument.". I didn't make it up, I should further add.
I made no other claim or statement than this. Your extrapolation of my intent is thus puzzling.
I may add that there is a general rule of thumb for internet debate. That rule is "The first person to bring up Hitler instantly loses the argument.". I didn't make it up, I should further add.
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My point to the whole thing was when i called them a "barbaric nation" its because like you said, the've been around for thousands of years longer than anyone as a "civilization", and they STILL, to this day, are a very uncivilized in thier ways. I.E. blowing themselfs up and killing each other at MOSQUES!!! Targetting thier own people in mass suicide attacks... AT a place of worship.... how is that not barbaric??
Granted maybe i should've said "alot of the people in that region, are very, hmmmm... well, Barbaric" instead of scapegoating...
But none-the-less, we're arguing off topic.. and for what its worth... My Opinion of this debate was that this shouldnt have happend, but it did, and its a shame and a disgrace to the uniform
for what they did, AND letting this whole thing get out into the public and media.
- 3,425
I guess the best way to put this in the proper perspective and stay within the theme of the thread is to look at how these actions have affected the situation in Iraq. Without a doubt this affair will cost lives on both sides, thats just being pragmatic. In discussion with friends that are either still in the service or ex service the majority opinion is that this was a stain on the honor of the armed services and that the nitwits that took the pictures should be shot. the best way it was presented to me was ; " Imagine the response in the US if you substituted US military for the Iraqi prisoners, I doubt if you would think it was being blown out of proportion , knowing you you'd want to blow Bhagdad up all out to space ! Do you really think we need to give them more reasons to shoot at our ass's ?" an interesting conversation to say the least. At the very best our MP's and intell officers can join Spain in giving the martyrs another reason to strap on the bombs.
All that being said NOT ONE person I've spoken to doesn't believe in the mission. they just see it getting a bit tougher. Incidently the fact that alot of martyrs are comming from all over the Arab world to die in Iraq , gives great satisfaction..better there than here.
All that being said NOT ONE person I've spoken to doesn't believe in the mission. they just see it getting a bit tougher. Incidently the fact that alot of martyrs are comming from all over the Arab world to die in Iraq , gives great satisfaction..better there than here.
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well said:tup:
but then again, this is an opinion forum, so just because im arguing with you Famine, I still respect your opinion... and its fun to get into a debate every now and then
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
This doesn't logically follow at all. The current condition of the country IS relevant, but the near-prehistoric condition of the are is NOT relevant.
They once were the cradle of civilization. They have since (or at least potentially have) descended into barbarism. Their prior status is irrelevant to their current condition.
Shall I call England a nation of ruthless Imperialists? Because, after all, they once were... regardless of the Empire's current condition.
You're making an extremely minor point into something to hang your hat on, and it's just not strong enough to handle the load.
- 10,832
Another general rule of thumb in "internet debate" (because it is so special that it warrants it's own special, general rules of thumb) goes thusly: those who are too familiar with some assinine etiquite are not to be taken seriously in the slightest. I should add that I made that up, which is why it rules and is absolutely correct.
- 1,271
milefile, NeonDuke, MSpec, [edit: ledhed also!]THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
i'm so relieved to know i'm not the only one that thought Famine was making no point at all and attacking 5LRE's post rather than the TOPIC!!! thank you!
ps. milefile, i really like your internet rule of thumb!
i'm so relieved to know i'm not the only one that thought Famine was making no point at all and attacking 5LRE's post rather than the TOPIC!!! thank you!
ps. milefile, i really like your internet rule of thumb!
- 87,049
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
*sigh*
I WASN'T making a point - but neither was 5LiterRiceEater, which was effectively the crux of my comment.
You cannot say that a country which developed civilisation is Barbaric. You can easily say that some of the people have carried out barbarian acts, but the country is not a Barbarian nation (although the root of the word "Barbarian" is the Latin for "foreign") - it is racism at it's grossest form, and part of the reason why there is such an apparent gulf between "them and us" (the fact there is no "them and us", only "us", aside).
Other people in this thread have said - regarding the alleged American and British troops' brutality of Iraqi prisoners - that "we cannot allow our actions to be dictated by the lowest common denominator", yet you are allowing your opinion of the Iraqi people to be dictated by their lowest common denominator - a group of Saddam-loyale guerillas inciting crowds who no longer know who is in charge and who the enemy is. You may as well claim that all Spanish or Irish or Saudi people are terrorists - because the lowest common denominator (ETA, the IRA or the majority of the WTC bombers) blow up innocent people.
I'll remind you all that the current stated purpose of the war is to remove the dictatorial regime and allow Iraqis chance to govern themselves (even if they vote for another dictator). If they were all barbarians, they wouldn't be able to do it - so is it right for us to let them try and fail, knowing that they are barbarians and WILL fail?
Do not confuse anything I've said with any opinion I may or may not hold on the war, it's prelude or aftermath. I appreciate that this is an emotive subject - which is why I will not give my opinion on any part of it. But the people of Iraq are not evil, murdering Barbarians as has been intimated.
- 1,271
yeah, you are reading WAY TOO DEEP. None of us were saying that every individual in Iraq was a barbarian. As was made clear after the original statement. but, even so, we could still call Iraq a barbaric Nation. Your saying we can't recognize what it's like now, based on what it WAS! that's ridiculous. That's like still reffering to Lucifer as An Angel, because he WAS an angel!
If your only point was that Iraq is not a Barbaric nation based on the fact that the majority of the individuals in Iraq are not as base as the barbarians that attacked the contractors,then that is what you should have stated. but saying that we could not call Iraq a Barbaric nation, just because of what took place there THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, is ridiculous.
If your only point was that Iraq is not a Barbaric nation based on the fact that the majority of the individuals in Iraq are not as base as the barbarians that attacked the contractors,then that is what you should have stated. but saying that we could not call Iraq a Barbaric nation, just because of what took place there THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, is ridiculous.
- 10,832
I wish people would take this advice when opining on the U.S. And you are correct as far as I know. But I would imagine, in a combat situation, a trust-no-one perpsective would be wise. Out of this instinct for self preservation a certain bigotry necessarily arises. We all look for signs and things to interpret. When looking for the next person who may try to kill you, and knowing that this person will look Arab, you end up lumping all Arabs together in the absence of any deeper understanding of the situation. It is not hate. It is survival. War is messy and unfair.
- 87,049
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Or indeed any group of peoples.
87chevy - I will state once again (and it was the first line of my last post): "I WASN'T making a point - but neither was 5LiterRiceEater, which was effectively the crux of my comment."
Do you see? If I had a point, it was that there was no point to the original statement. Usage of the original word was a non-point, and it was objectionable and needless. And no, I'm white, male and English.
Anyway, I've covered this all in my previous, long, post and there is no way I'm going to go over it all again when at least two other people have understood my meaning. Knock yourself out having a go at whatever point you thought I was making.
- 1,271
i hate to tell you this, but every statement has a point. and you can't disprove someone elses 'point', without offering another one. and, how bout this. if your not going to actually talk about the topic at hand, then don't bother saying anything. that would save us a lot of trouble. instead of just dancing around the issue and nitpicking someone else post, without providing your own view on the subject.
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i guess the point is, all opinions turn into debates
- 87,049
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Funny. You were the first person to tell me I hadn't made a point. But now every statement has a point, so I guess I must have.
I believe I have made my own view readily apparent in my previous lengthy post.
And there's no way I'm going to pick up on such an open goal as "get out of the thread" (paraphrase) when talking about removing a dictator from power. I'll let someone else cover it.
5LRE - I just thought I'd say that, although it was your initial comment I was disagreeing with, your subsequent posts have shown that you rock. Hard!
- 185
I guess he shot himself in the foot on that one!!
yeah, thanks. I just like debates, and in reality, when ur debating on two different peopls opinions, no one can really win, because they ARE opinions. Thanks for the debate Famine
- 3,425
So the crazy martyr types deciced to behead a civilian contractor by the name of Nick Berg. They sent out video tapes of the act to all the news outlets..wonder if it will be on nightline and in the papers for a week..maybe Rumsfeld should resign .
More than likely the response to this act of barbarism will be " what did you expect from them ? " or some such nonsense. another dead dude so what..they only cut off his head...I guess they could have burned him and tied him to a car bumper and drove around for awile..must be getting lazy..
More than likely the response to this act of barbarism will be " what did you expect from them ? " or some such nonsense. another dead dude so what..they only cut off his head...I guess they could have burned him and tied him to a car bumper and drove around for awile..must be getting lazy..
