Physics thread

[iQuacks]

I think another problem is that people have some unrealistic expectations about the game.

The unrealistic expectations only come from a) all the hype b) all the features we have been told will be in it.

If you have a ps4 or Xbox and you claim to like racing/driving games, I would not see how you could pass it up, even if it's not everything you want it to be.

I agree completely, it might not be everything we want it to be (it might well be though), but if it lives up to even half of the hype, it will be far better than anything on consoles to date. A couple of people at work have stated how eager they are for it's release and they haven't read all the info on here etc. My worry is about people giving it negative reviews saying its "too hard" because they're not used to real simulation and are unwilling to put in the hours to learn how to race properly, but then again people will give bad reviews no matter how good anything is.

I would love to see pCARS be as successful as possible as a thank you to SMS for doing something different and also for all the work the pCARS community have put into making this game as realistic as possible regardless of limitations.

It has also been great watching the various videos of the progressive builds and how much the game has evolved, remember, the development process is something the consumer very rarely gets to see. I've watched hours of pCARS videos posted on this forum, and for me, this is where my expectations and hype arise from.

 

[Speedster911]

Frankly speaking, if they find it hard they should steer clear. Not every racing game that comes out has to be accessible and gamer-friendly, i.e. ala GT/Forza.

If, as a gamer, you don't like difficult or highly challenging driving games, keep away is what I say.

Not every arcade racing game has to have to have realistic car behavior. Not every sim has to try and please everybody at the same time.

A sim is a sim, and that's what PCARS is aiming for: a PC-level sim on consoles. *finally, bout damn time*

 

[InSight]

My worry is about people giving it negative reviews saying its "too hard" because they're not used to real simulation and are unwilling to put in the hours to learn how to race properly, but then again people will give bad reviews no matter how good anything is.

Especially console versions should be very clear about one thing.

It's a race sim:

NOT a rice sim:

Because given the amount of posts on Steam forums and youtube, not everyone is aware of this. Which means lots of posts and negative score because of it.

 

[DrJustice]

^ <chuckle>

 

[notanexpert]

In the end, I found forza and gt6 realistic "enough" for my application. I don't know how most of these cars drive in real life so to me they had great physics. I hear a lot of pcars not having matching physics to other PC only Sims, but even then, I don't care because its probably a step up from forza or gt.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

In the end, I found forza and gt6 realistic "enough" for my application. I don't know how most of these cars drive in real life so to me they had great physics. I hear a lot of pcars not having matching physics to other PC only Sims, but even then, I don't care because its probably a step up from forza or gt.

It shouldn't match other sims, it should match real life.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

I'm hoping SMS is rewarded (with sales) as they are building a game focused more towards "racing", with more "sim" type features than a typical mass appeal racing game, and have listened very well to their racing enthusiast members. With that said, there are development limits to what can be included in any game and how well every feature can be executed. What other racing game has the amount of features as pCARS has planned (for release and beyond); none! Will every feature be best-in-class, I don't think so but again no other racing game has done that either.
I personally don't think pCARS will do very well on the consoles, there are too many that could care less with the detail of the feature set. By the very nature of most console gamers, which I hear over and over; they want plug-N-play! In addition, the genre is "racing", not car/helmet/paint chip/etc. collecting driving game where games of that type have done very well on the consoles. I feel for the console gamers looking for more of a racing sim type of game but those numbers pale in comparison to the typical console gamer. Project CARS v1.0 may not hit all of the targets, but a much better 2.0 may never materialize if sales are flat.
There are a few other racing "sim" type games on the PC that have what seems like better physics and road/FFB "feel" (subjective, and my opinion) but those wouldn't do well on the consoles at all with their limited feature set (rFactor2, AC, R3E, Stock Car Extreme) so pCARS may be the best of both worlds for console "racing" enthusiasts.

 

[LogiForce]

It shouldn't match other sims, it should match real life.

Well said. That is the thing the devs pointed out to a lot of WMD members all the time. Something that would get tricky if you only know a car from other sims or online footage of the real thing.

I think all of us WMD members tried our best to match what we saw cars do in online footage and tried to add our experience of various real cars to get a good idea of where the car should go. Add in a person like Ben 'The Stig' Collins who has driven all of them, and we get the final touches on the cars.


That said, we had various discussions about what was real and what was not real when pushing a car to the limit, as in how tricky does driving a race car get. Our professional drivers kept stressing that a race car is easy to drive, easier than any road car pushed at its limits. It's just that a race car can get hairy on those last tenths of a lap-time, since you are riding the edge of grip constantly which is small.
A road car might have more forgiving tyres, but the suspension of a road car is setup for comfort and not for car control. So on a track you'll have to fight roll and the soft suspension, and not to mention brake fade of the street performance level brakes.


With the Formula A in Project CARS being at a simulation level slightly below a professional F1 simulation, as tested by someone who does setup those simulators, I think we have a pretty strong simulator in our hands (but not without fault).

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Well said. That is the thing the devs pointed out to a lot of WMD members all the time. Something that would get tricky if you only know a car from other sims or online footage of the real thing.

I think all of us WMD members tried our best to match what we saw cars do in online footage and tried to add our experience of various real cars to get a good idea of where the car should go. Add in a person like Ben 'The Stig' Collins who has driven all of them, and we get the final touches on the cars.


That said, we had various discussions about what was real and what was not real when pushing a car to the limit, as in how tricky does driving a race car get. Our professional drivers kept stressing that a race car is easy to drive, easier than any road car pushed at its limits. It's just that a race car can get hairy on those last tenths of a lap-time, since you are riding the edge of grip constantly which is small.
A road car might have more forgiving tyres, but the suspension of a road car is setup for comfort and not for car control. So on a track you'll have to fight roll and the soft suspension, and not to mention brake fade of the street performance level brakes.


With the Formula A in Project CARS being at a simulation level slightly below a professional F1 simulation, as tested by someone who does setup those simulators, I think we have a pretty strong simulator in our hands (but not without fault).

Please never ever stop posting

 

[LogiForce]

Please never ever stop posting

Well, as to the feedback from said driver on the Formula A you should see some changes in the build notes next week.
Personally I can't wait to try them out.

Btw. Doug Arnou is really pooring his magical 'Doug Tech (tm)' on the cars now. Every car he has touched has dramatically improved over the last month. That guy is genius!

As far as his Grand Prix Legends legacy goes. He and David Kaemmer had an arguiment about the grip levels. While David Kaemmer (now iRacing) wished for low grip and hard to control, Doug was of the opinion that while low on grip it should be a bit more grippy than they went with in the end with GPL. So David Kaemmer pushed his idea there.

What I want to say with that is that you should expect a different kind of grip than within games in which David Kaemmer was involved. These guys have different views and opinions and personally I think Doug is going for a more realistic level of grip, rather than a more challenging drive.

I'm sure that some of you here will end up in different camps of thought because of this, but please remain civil about it when in a discussion. After all, until we can do a realtime proper simulation of nature our sims will have different 'flavors' after all. Besides, everyone involved with rubber says that tyre simulation is like a black art.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But yeah, I just can't figure it out why some people consider this a Shift 3.

I don't think they do consider it Shift 3, it's just your typical internet troll that has enough of a clue to know what buttons to push and how to get a defensive reaction. From what I've seen, everyone involved in this project has tempered their reactions and responded admirably. It's one of the things that draws me into the franchise:tup:

I'm hoping SMS is rewarded (with sales) as they are building a game focused more towards "racing", with more "sim" type features than a typical mass appeal racing game, and have listened very well to their racing enthusiast members. With that said, there are development limits to what can be included in any game and how well every feature can be executed. What other racing game has the amount of features as pCARS has planned (for release and beyond); none! Will every feature be best-in-class, I don't think so but again no other racing game has done that either.
I personally don't think pCARS will do very well on the consoles, there are too many that could care less with the detail of the feature set. By the very nature of most console gamers, which I hear over and over; they want plug-N-play! In addition, the genre is "racing", not car/helmet/paint chip/etc. collecting driving game where games of that type have done very well on the consoles. I feel for the console gamers looking for more of a racing sim type of game but those numbers pale in comparison to the typical console gamer. Project CARS v1.0 may not hit all of the targets, but a much better 2.0 may never materialize if sales are flat.
There are a few other racing "sim" type games on the PC that have what seems like better physics and road/FFB "feel" (subjective, and my opinion) but those wouldn't do well on the consoles at all with their limited feature set (rFactor2, AC, R3E, Stock Car Extreme) so pCARS may be the best of both worlds for console "racing" enthusiasts.

If they only sell 1Million units per console that's $100,000,000+ depending on average sales, for an investment of < $10Million, split several ways of course but still a handsome return for all involved. IMO 3Million console sales is pretty realistic. It should build up enough of a warchest for a much broader scoped PCars2 if all goes well.

 

[LogiForce]

I don't think they do consider it Shift 3, it's just your typical internet troll that has enough of a clue to know what buttons to push and how to get a defensive reaction. From what I've seen, everyone involved in this project has tempered their reactions and responded admirably. It's one of the things that draws me into the franchise:tup:

If they only sell 1Million units per console that's $100,000,000+ depending on average sales, for an investment of < $10Million, split several ways of course but still a handsome return for all involved. IMO 3Million console sales is pretty realistic. It should build up enough of a warchest for a much broader scoped PCars2 if all goes well.

Everyone involved has evolved over the years I think. I think we all learned on how to best communicate via forums in a friendly and mild manner. After all, if you want to convince a developer to do something, who's another human being with emotions, it is best to be friendly and not a forum troll acting like a wise guy.
Also we had to learn how to express ourselves in a way that is non-offensive and civilized, as if you would talk to your boss.
Lastly might be the point of how to discuss things without getting personal or offensive (which is easy to fall into with the internet's anonymity).


In terms of sales I would be pleased if we could reach the same targets as the Shift games did under EA's flag and marketing armageddon. Which sold about 3 million per platform I think.
I don't worry too much about it personally, cause if I did I would feel like I am trying to promote the game as if I want that money. The fact is that I rather see everyone enjoy the game enough, or previews thereof, that they want to buy the game and hope they play it to bits for years to come.



N.B. Speaking in general... I do curse you all who will pirate the game, or extract the 3D models for modding use. Everyone has worked hard for all of it for years now, and they simply wish to give you guys more back when you guys start paying for the game as well. But if people start to pirate the game than there simply will not be any extra DLC or a second Project CARS installment. So in fact pirating a game that you like is rather self destructive.

Simply said, if you like it or think it is of value to our niche sim racing world, just buy it.

 

[LeMansAid]

Speaking purely about the tire model: AC uses a static model where as pCARS uses a (mostly) dynamic model. That already puts pCARS ahead in terms of what is possible to get from the tire model, I think, and I personally feel it shows quite well already. For example: on something like the Z4 GT3, in AC the tires on it feel fairly stiff and grippy and that makes a decent amount of sense as it's a modern race car. In pCARS it's a similar story in that you can feel the grip nicely but even then the tire feels more "alive". The tire flex comes through better.

Where you can really start to notice the difference is in a car like the Lotus 49. In AC you have the same stiff feeling tire. Sure there is less grip and you can slide around some, but it feels very much dead. In pCARS you can feel the old tires squirming under you and you can really play with the car and dance it around the track.

I think my point is best illustrated through driving style. In pCARS my driving style for the L49 is very similar to that of real life. I'm fairly liberal with the throttle to counter the understeering nature of the car (no downforce on the damn thing) and get small slides going to power my way through the corners. It's a constant balance of throttle and steering to dance my way through the corners.

In AC I use more or less the same driving style as you would use in a modern race car with the rare tiny tailslide on corner exit. Trying to drive the way I do in pCARS ends in spinning because the tires on the L49 in AC behave like modern tires. Trying to drive the way I do in AC in pCARS leads to slow, understeery laps.

This is not a comparison of which is more accurate (though I'm fairly certain pCARS is) so much as showing the versatility of pCARS's tire model and the (apparent) limitations of AC's tire model.

Great post in general, but I've quoted the part that stuck out most to me. Without having driven pCARS I feel I can still get a sense of it's advantage here. That it's analogue-like tyre model gels with the analogue bodies that exert control.

Note to all - the only reason I went to the dreaded S word was to highlight that I think that SMS's problem previously was putting in more physics work than was evident in output. That there was an issue with the conversion of it all in to something that worked and mattered on the track. My fear is that they've still not increased the conversion ratio enough, and that they're suffering from a muted translation of an epic amount of physics work. I'd love to see a better conversion rate open the floodgates so to speak.

N.B. Speaking in general... I do curse you all who will pirate the game, or extract the 3D models for modding use. Everyone has worked hard for all of it for years now, and they simply wish to give you guys more back when you guys start paying for the game as well. But if people start to pirate the game than there simply will not be any extra DLC or a second Project CARS installment. So in fact pirating a game that you like is rather self destructive.

Simply said, if you like it or think it is of value to our niche sim racing world, just buy it.

I wonder how many pCARS investors pirate music, movies and tv. Might be a catalyst for some to take a good hard look at themselves. But most likely they'll come up with some fallacious internal oration that explains away their illegal and immoral behaviours.

 

[DG_Silva]

There's an old saying; Good service is invisible, bad service gets noticed. If the underlying physics have been programmed correctly, you won't notice anything wrong. If you end up with shocking physics that spit you out off the kerbs for no reason, it gets noticed. Don't wory so much about what is behind the game, and just enjoy it. pCARS2, should it happen, is where the devs will get their rewards.

 

[LogiForce]

I wonder how many pCARS investors pirate music, movies and tv. Might be a catalyst for some to take a good hard look at themselves. But most likely they'll come up with some fallacious internal oration that explains away their illegal and immoral behaviours.

I will be honest and say that I have pirated in the past, but I don't anymore unless I can't get access to their work where I live. With in the past I mean before I had an income and had to do get software for my IT studies, which could get crazy expensive fast.
Once I had an income I started to buy properly and now that I have seen the other side of the coin I still feel bad about what I did in the past. I can't change that past, but I do buy everyones work to show appreciation for their efforts since.

But yeah, I am guilty of downloading things like Novell Netware and a series like Star Trek Enterprise. Heck, I even got a nice letter from Paramount Pictures because of that one, via my provider.

Guilty as charged but having improved my ways.

Proof - Steam Collection: https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561197984223300/

The same goes for vinyl, DVD/blu-ray, iTunes, and all of that stuff.

 

[Wolfe]

I find it kind of grating to see so much written about FFB here (I just talked about that last week ), but it does relate to the depth of the tire model and steering simulation, and @TheDrummingKING did eventually come around to talking about physics. I appreciate the input on the Lotus 49 between AC and PCARS, considering all the praise AC gets (for not being made by "the guys who made Shift").

Note to all - the only reason I went to the dreaded S word was to highlight that I think that SMS's problem previously was putting in more physics work than was evident in output. That there was an issue with the conversion of it all in to something that worked and mattered on the track. My fear is that they've still not increased the conversion ratio enough, and that they're suffering from a muted translation of an epic amount of physics work. I'd love to see a better conversion rate open the floodgates so to speak.

I felt the same way about Shift 2 Unleashed. I recognized the potential underneath, but no matter what tweaks I made, I couldn't manage to unlock it. But I was able to enjoy a portion of the career mode, progressing to a point where the cars became too much of a handful. The track list and lighting effects were fantastic, and I liked some of the gameplay ideas.

With its car list, track list, and features list, PCARS is shaping up to be similarly promising just on face value, which is why I'm only hoping for a game that's fun to play. A proper simulator would be icing on the cake.

 

[FuriousDemon]

Some cool physics stuff about rain modeling from the devs:

"To get a little braggy about the system the guys came up with, it's even more than just a % wetness to work out a grip modifier. Up to a certain wetness, it controls film coverage of the road, and above that it actually models increasing standing water depth for aquaplaning and such. Then, of course, rainfall 'fills the bucket' while cars doing laps takes water out of the system and dries the track (racing line and off line at different rates) in addition to the regular 'runoff' drainage rate. Pretty cool stuff."

 

[Alex Bonner]

I try PC on pc with wheel.. I play about 10+h...
PC can't handle the name simulation.. Is good game but reminds me an updated version of NFS shift...
It's far away from the real life or other sim..
You can't even compare with the Gt....

Well I disagree with this if you're describing handling characteristics. As the game stands today there is still some work to be done on several cars. However a lot are at a level I would put on par or above any other sim. Visually Shift was a great looking game and on console looked as good any anything else about at that time. I think people need to understand a $500 PC just wont cut it on this title.

If you all add me on Steam we will Twitch Pcars with a webcam setup so you can see the driver input needed to control the vehicles. You will see with your own eyes it has no likeness to Shift whatsoever.

Add me on Steam boothegoopc or boo the goo pc and follow my mates Twitch http://www.twitch.tv/deadly_dave5

 

[Deadly Dave5]

Hi All,

OK so as my mate Alex has just said and also pointed me to this topic here at gtplanet, i regularly stream Pcars on twitch with a web cam setup to show my driving inputs using a Fanatec Clubsport setup and trackir, all settings set at ultra, So if you want to see Pcars running and want to see or be shown anything you want, pop along and just ask as im happy to show and talk about all aspects of Pcars. A bit about myself, iv been a sim racer for a lot of years, 20 yrs Plus, do iracing etc and some real life experience so kind of know what im talking about, i do online play in the stream with Alex and a few others, which 1 has a lot of real race time in various cars and classes of racing, (his far to quick for my liking ). we all know how to race .

I used to think the same about Pcars going to be the next shift 3 (which tbh iv never played) thought it was going to be all graphics but no physics but in the last few months of testing it, my opinion has drastically changed for the better, the FFB on most of the cars is something else, (may depend on type of wheel you are using) just feels right, picks up all the feeling of what your front wheels are doing, every bump, goes light over crests, understeer, oversteers, 4 wheel slides, gravel, grass, curbs, cold tyres which you feel come alive through the wheel and AstroTurf on run off areas all feel awesome, This isn't a sim for a controller if you want to play it fully.

Bare in mind though PCars is still work in progress and changes a lot with each build as they tweak and tune each car and tyre models still, some cars are better than other for sure as you find with all sims but you can tell it will come good in the end with the progress the sim has made, (yes i called it a sim and not a game )

Heres my Twitch channel;


http://www.twitch.tv/deadly_dave5

Ill be on tonight with Alex and maybe others at around 7:30 to 8 oclock GMT 9/02/15.

Regards

Dave....

 

[skazz]

Another "pCARS has made big steps forwards in the last few months" post from me too.

A lot of that was exposing a less filtered and more "raw" FFB. If you ever looked into the FFB tweaker threads on the WMD forums then it's clear that pCARS had the ability to feel great for quite a while now, but it was hard to get there and involved effort. The latest FFB implementation brought that less filtered feel out nicely, and they've also added a minimum force setting to cure wheel deadzones recently, which makes a big difference to mainstream wheels (as it did in Assetto Corsa when introduced a couple of months back). The rest was mostly the never ending tyre model improvements and associated default suspension tweaks.

As of now the game drives nicely (cars don't have endless grip but do feel stable) and feels pretty good out of the box, and will be even better once the FFB defaults per wheel are tweaked so that non-direct-drive wheels are given (community tested) less linear default FFB to compensate for limited torque.

Outside the physics/FFB: AI also seems to be improving nicely. Graphics are being optimized and frame rates are going up. The track list is being finalized and is awesome.


Will pCARS be perfect? Of course not! But it will have a huge track list, decent variety of race cars, decent AI, great graphics, a career mode, very nice dynamic FFB and physics. It should be a good all-rounder.

 

[Spurgy 777]

In the car list thread, it says that Formula Rookie is a Formula Ford type car. I was just wondering how it will actually compare to the real life (I'm guessing old style) FFs in handling and performance because I'm racing FFs this year, and with the track list it looks like it will be an awesome game to practice on

 

[LogiForce]

In the car list thread, it says that Formula Rookie is a Formula Ford type car. I was just wondering how it will actually compare to the real life (I'm guessing old style) FFs in handling and performance because I'm racing FFs this year, and with the track list it looks like it will be an awesome game to practice on

It has a Hewland FD200 gearbox. The car design is based on the 2011 Formula Ford models, and follows the design rules of that year.

I think you will be able to benefit from running practice laps non the less. Just like Rene Rast has been doing for his series, and Ben Collin, etc.

 

[RoccoTTS]

Will pCARS be perfect? Of course not! But it will have a huge track list, decent variety of race cars, decent AI, great graphics, a career mode, very nice dynamic FFB and physics. It should be a good all-rounder.

That is the game i've been looking for on console for many years now !
That's all i need to be happy for the next couple of years

 

[Johnnypenso]

In the car list thread, it says that Formula Rookie is a Formula Ford type car. I was just wondering how it will actually compare to the real life (I'm guessing old style) FFs in handling and performance because I'm racing FFs this year, and with the track list it looks like it will be an awesome game to practice on

I see a blog in the making here

 

[Spurgy 777]

I see a blog in the making here

About Project Cars or my racing? If it's my racing then you might find updates here once the season gets started;

http://www.benspurgeracing.com

 

[Cote Dazur]

I used to think the same about Pcars going to be the next shift 3 (which tbh iv never played) thought it was going to be all graphics but no physics but in the last few months of testing it, my opinion has drastically changed for the better, the FFB on most of the cars is something else, (may depend on type of wheel you are using) just feels right, picks up all the feeling of what your front wheels are doing, every bump, goes light over crests, understeer, oversteers, 4 wheel slides, gravel, grass, curbs, cold tyres which you feel come alive through the wheel and AstroTurf on run off areas all feel awesome, This isn't a sim for a controller if you want to play it fully.



Regards

Dave....

This is very encouraging and I wish that we all feel the same when PCars is finally available to all of us to enjoy.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

About Project Cars or my racing? If it's my racing then you might find updates here once the season gets started;

http://www.benspurgeracing.com

Both please and about how the two compare, the way you drive in game, how you set things up in your version of the game to match the feel of the real thing..

And @Deadly Dave5 thanks for "Twitching" (is that a thing?) i tried connecting but my phone was playing up. The quality looked and sounded great briefly though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

About Project Cars or my racing? If it's my racing then you might find updates here once the season gets started;

http://www.benspurgeracing.com

I meant the two of them together. It would be nice to see back to back videos of practice races at the same venues in the virtual and real car. 👍 Might be a sponsorship opportunity or at least a mutually beneficial collaboration for you to explore there:idea:. I watched most of that Brands Hatch video in the Jedi, almost jumped out of my chair when you got rear ended right at the end of the video. Looks like he missed his braking point and ran wide on you.

I will follow your racing exploits this year with interest. 👍👍

 

[Spurgy 777]

Both please and about how the two compare, the way you drive in game, how you set things up in your version of the game to match the feel of the real thing..

I meant the two of them together. It would be nice to see back to back videos of practice races at the same venues in the virtual and real car. 👍

That sounds like a great idea 👍 And with the PS4 I can post videos on YouTube without a capture card, although I might need some help with doing the side by side comparison, I'm not great with computers

Also, @LogiForce, is it possible to put the real life car setup onto the in-game car?

Might be a sponsorship opportunity or at least a mutually beneficial collaboration for you to explore there:idea:.

Would definitely be something I'd be interested in doing, if I knew who to contact that is, maybe @LogiForce could point me in the right direction on that one too. 👍

I watched most of that Brands Hatch video in the Jedi, almost jumped out of my chair when you got rear ended right at the end of the video. Looks like he missed his braking point and ran wide on you.

I will follow your racing exploits this year with interest. 👍👍

Actually, that was meant to be an attempt at an overtake... From about 4 car lengths back, which is why it didn't go so well.

 

[LogiForce]

Also, @LogiForce, is it possible to put the real life car setup onto the in-game car?


Would definitely be something I'd be interested in doing, if I knew who to contact that is, maybe @LogiForce could point me in the right direction on that one too. 👍

You should be able to, but as I am not driving these myself I have no clue as to double check what ranges of settings you guys use in a setup.

Talking about colaboration, I think you might be able to give some Frookie (as we call it) feedback. I think the team will like it.

Since you're in England I think the best and shortest route might be to just ring them up in their London office. I think that would be the quickest route and is more personal as well in my opinion.
Oh, and do not worry. They are nice chaps and don't bite... usually.

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