Physics thread

  • Thread starter LVracerGT
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Well I disagree with this if you're describing handling characteristics. As the game stands today there is still some work to be done on several cars. However a lot are at a level I would put on par or above any other sim. Visually Shift was a great looking game and on console looked as good any anything else about at that time. I think people need to understand a $500 PC just wont cut it on this title.

If you all add me on Steam we will Twitch Pcars with a webcam setup so you can see the driver input needed to control the vehicles. You will see with your own eyes it has no likeness to Shift whatsoever.

Add me on Steam boothegoopc or boo the goo pc and follow my mates Twitch http://www.twitch.tv/deadly_dave5
thanks
maybe i should give this game more attention .
the physics i like on a game is the rfactor physics but i test it 3-4 years ago but i play it only tt alone on the green hell for some days and i was bored...



i dont buy the PC already you know what i mean :) because i want to test it first..
i follow you on YT and Twitch to watch you ..
 
Im not sure if this has been posted already, but it seems extremely relvant and is probably the best source you could find regarding Pcars physics. Recently, SMS made this document public. It shows ALL the feedback between Ben Collins, Nicolas Hamilton and the devs regarding tyres, handling, etc over the course of the games developement. Be warned. Its 415 pages long! lol

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/project-cars-driver-feedback-compilation-available/
 
Is GT6's physics comparable to Project Cars'? Is it more/less forgiving? I wish I could demo this game!!
Not really a question that can be answered straight up IMO. I can give you my experience of making the recent switch to PC Sim racing from years of GT with a wheel. The biggest difference between the two is that you can really tell what's happening with the car in AC. GT feels relatively dead by comparison. In AC you can feel and hear understeer and oversteer, you can feel the loss of grip and when it comes back. You can also adjust a plethora of options regarding that FFB and also your view in the game and the mix of sounds and these things are all important IMO when it comes to knowing what's going on with the car. For example, I did an 18 lap race in a fairly large field last week without ABS on street tires and I adjusted the sound balance so I could hear the tires better and picked up a half second just by being able to better hear when the tires locked up.

For me, when I can really tell what's happening with the car, they become easier to drive because I can more easily feel the limits. Because the physics are more realistic, you can actually make inputs that work as they are supposed to. In GT for example, one of the keys to being fast is managing brake release oversteer. First you brake unrealstically with full on brake power with ABS on and little chance of the front end giving too much bite and oversteering the car.Release the brake and if the car is set up right, the back end breaks loose when you release the brakes, and a nice controlled power drift on exit maximizes early exit and speed for lower lap times.

In a sim there is no brake release oversteer, and braking on entry with or without ABS can induce both over and understeer depending on your entry speed, brake pressure and if you are turning the wheel or not. Smooth controlled braking is followed by brake release which gives most cars a very neutral to slightly understeery feel just like in real life and then smoothly power out for earliest exit speed. At all times, the car does what it's supposed to do based on real life physics, and for me at least, that makes cars easier to control because I'm not thinking about unrealistic videogame inputs but rather realistic, real driving inputs.

Unlike in GT most of the time, turning the wheel mid-corner affects the car. It might induce understeer depending on your speed, tire temperature, the track etc. It might induce oversteer depending on the conditions. Touching the brakes mid corner with ABS on, unlike in GT again, dramatically affects the balance of the car. Stab the brakes mid-corner and you'll likely spin, because you'll pitch the weight forward, increase the grip on the front tires and decrease it on the rear. Key thing is, you'll know exactly what happened and why, and be able to avoid it happening again through the proper inputs.

The transition took a couple of weeks to really get comfortable but I can't see it being easy to go back to GT physics.
 
In GT for example, one of the keys to being fast is managing brake release oversteer. First you brake unrealstically with full on brake power with ABS on and little chance of the front end giving too much bite and oversteering the car.Release the brake and if the car is set up right, the back end breaks loose when you release the brakes, and a nice controlled power drift on exit maximizes early exit and speed for lower lap times.
That's a thing in Gran Turismo these days? Wow. Polyphony needs help.
 
Not really a question that can be answered straight up IMO. I can give you my experience of making the recent switch to PC Sim racing from years of GT with a wheel. The biggest difference between the two is that you can really tell what's happening with the car in AC. GT feels relatively dead by comparison. In AC you can feel and hear understeer and oversteer, you can feel the loss of grip and when it comes back. You can also adjust a plethora of options regarding that FFB and also your view in the game and the mix of sounds and these things are all important IMO when it comes to knowing what's going on with the car. For example, I did an 18 lap race in a fairly large field last week without ABS on street tires and I adjusted the sound balance so I could hear the tires better and picked up a half second just by being able to better hear when the tires locked up.

For me, when I can really tell what's happening with the car, they become easier to drive because I can more easily feel the limits. Because the physics are more realistic, you can actually make inputs that work as they are supposed to. In GT for example, one of the keys to being fast is managing brake release oversteer. First you brake unrealstically with full on brake power with ABS on and little chance of the front end giving too much bite and oversteering the car.Release the brake and if the car is set up right, the back end breaks loose when you release the brakes, and a nice controlled power drift on exit maximizes early exit and speed for lower lap times.

In a sim there is no brake release oversteer, and braking on entry with or without ABS can induce both over and understeer depending on your entry speed, brake pressure and if you are turning the wheel or not. Smooth controlled braking is followed by brake release which gives most cars a very neutral to slightly understeery feel just like in real life and then smoothly power out for earliest exit speed. At all times, the car does what it's supposed to do based on real life physics, and for me at least, that makes cars easier to control because I'm not thinking about unrealistic videogame inputs but rather realistic, real driving inputs.

Unlike in GT most of the time, turning the wheel mid-corner affects the car. It might induce understeer depending on your speed, tire temperature, the track etc. It might induce oversteer depending on the conditions. Touching the brakes mid corner with ABS on, unlike in GT again, dramatically affects the balance of the car. Stab the brakes mid-corner and you'll likely spin, because you'll pitch the weight forward, increase the grip on the front tires and decrease it on the rear. Key thing is, you'll know exactly what happened and why, and be able to avoid it happening again through the proper inputs.

The transition took a couple of weeks to really get comfortable but I can't see it being easy to go back to GT physics.
Wow. I never thought I'd run into somebody who also understands why GT6 is extremely broken and can have an intelligent conversation.
 
There are a number of GTPlanet veterans who became disillusioned with Gran Turismo's idea of "simulation" and gave up on the game years ago already. :lol: Most of us just don't post in the GT area of the site. Ever since being a "critic" became fashionable, it's been a minefield no matter which side you're on, which is unfortunate. It's the one weak area of this fantastic community, and the people who still enjoy the game don't deserve it.

And that's coming from someone who was a thorn in the side of the GT4 subforum, almost ten years ago. I was also younger, and admittedly pushier about it. ;)
 
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For me, when I can really tell what's happening with the car, they become easier to drive because I can more easily feel the limits. Because the physics are more realistic, you can actually make inputs that work as they are supposed to. In GT for example, one of the keys to being fast is managing brake release oversteer. First you brake unrealstically with full on brake power with ABS on and little chance of the front end giving too much bite and oversteering the car.Release the brake and if the car is set up right, the back end breaks loose when you release the brakes, and a nice controlled power drift on exit maximizes early exit and speed for lower lap times.

Is there a video demonstrating this anywhere, like an onboard of a hotlap or something? I've read about his before but seeing a live example would help relate that sensation to what I feel in-game.
 
Is there a video demonstrating this anywhere, like an onboard of a hotlap or something? I've read about his before but seeing a live example would help relate that sensation to what I feel in-game.
Good question. You'd have to have a video that focused on the wheel with the game in the background but there's no way you could get the full effect through watching a video. It's the coordination of the visual, auditory and FFB that brings everything together. But there may be something out there that goes directly at explaining this.
 
The transition took a couple of weeks to really get comfortable but I can't see it being easy to go back to GT physics.
I would describe my own similar experience going from GTx to AC as being more a lesson in unlearning very bad behaviour and returning to my muscle memory and many years of actual driving. Now I have my settings right for a simulation, I often rarely find much of a difference with AC and IRL. It is so convincing that after a nice long country drive on a point to point track, when I come to park the vehicle at the end, I reach for a non-sim-existent gear lever to my left to leave it in neutral before applying the parking break. It's just a long automatic pattern established from scores of years of real driving, and it makes me chuckle when it happens at the end of say Glava Zeta or Transfagarasen (excuse my spelling). Now I'm using the proper viewing angle (of 27 degrees) that most closely matches real life, the sim qualities of AC really come to the fore especially with the outstanding physics and FFB.

One big thing I've noticed due to this change and very welcome it is too, is how I am now calmly confident in starting off a race and being able to keep pace without crashing into the back of another racer. All the other cars now look much more correct in relation to size and IRL, they move at my speed, all the action takes place within what I would call a normal time space, one not messed up with an arcade type viewing angle. Now that I have seen this difference, it is the only honest way to describe it. It is either simulating real life or a distorted and stretched out arcade view which loses so much of the character of any track or circuit by smoothing out the left/right direction changes and more importantly the up/down elevation changes. I would love one of the video makers to do a comparison of views along side each other and especially of a touge style track. I think the differences could be quite shocking.
ooh! steps off soapbox.
 
To be fair, IRL has most grip with a few % of slip. But I'm not saying gt is anywhere near correct still. :)
 
JvM
To be fair, IRL has most grip with a few % of slip. But I'm not saying gt is anywhere near correct still. :)
Absolutely true, but it's the behaviour of releasing the brake and getting oversteer to induce this slip angle that is unrealistic.
I would describe my own similar experience going from GTx to AC as being more a lesson in unlearning very bad behaviour and returning to my muscle memory and many years of actual driving. Now I have my settings right for a simulation, I often rarely find much of a difference with AC and IRL. It is so convincing that after a nice long country drive on a point to point track, when I come to park the vehicle at the end, I reach for a non-sim-existent gear lever to my left to leave it in neutral before applying the parking break. It's just a long automatic pattern established from scores of years of real driving, and it makes me chuckle when it happens at the end of say Glava Zeta or Transfagarasen (excuse my spelling). Now I'm using the proper viewing angle (of 27 degrees) that most closely matches real life, the sim qualities of AC really come to the fore especially with the outstanding physics and FFB.

One big thing I've noticed due to this change and very welcome it is too, is how I am now calmly confident in starting off a race and being able to keep pace without crashing into the back of another racer. All the other cars now look much more correct in relation to size and IRL, they move at my speed, all the action takes place within what I would call a normal time space, one not messed up with an arcade type viewing angle. Now that I have seen this difference, it is the only honest way to describe it. It is either simulating real life or a distorted and stretched out arcade view which loses so much of the character of any track or circuit by smoothing out the left/right direction changes and more importantly the up/down elevation changes. I would love one of the video makers to do a comparison of views along side each other and especially of a touge style track. I think the differences could be quite shocking.
ooh! steps off soapbox.
Right on:tup:👍 I did a thread in this forum entitled, "Field of View (aka why does that track look so wide?)" that has both pictures and a good video by Empty Box that illustrates this quite well.
 
I knew GT5 had screwy understeer/oversteer, but I was referring to what Johnnypenso said about the tail kicking out after you release the brakes, in a car that would remain perfectly settled all the way through the braking zone. I don't remember that.
 
To add to this, @Cote Dazur mentioned this to me many times before I got into PC racing and I tried moving my FOV from the console game level to sim level and it wasn't comfortable at first, I struggled with it. But like anything else you get used to it in time and then it gets to the point where it's perfectly natural and everything just looks and feels right.
 
To add to this, @Cote Dazur mentioned this to me many times before I got into PC racing and I tried moving my FOV from the console game level to sim level and it wasn't comfortable at first, I struggled with it. But like anything else you get used to it in time and then it gets to the point where it's perfectly natural and everything just looks and feels right.

Exactly, like today. I want to take part in that VSCR event on Sunday and went to the track to get used to it not having seen it before. To begin with I just couldn't get to grips with it as there are so many places that the track dips enough to blind you to the next corner. So I changed the angle of view to raise my drivers eyes much higher. Then I did a good twenty laps like this and really got a good groove going :cool:. Once I was happy with that, I changed my view back to =IRL and then took to the track again, only this time I was making turns blindly but instinctively based on my newly developed groove. And a few laps later hitting my best times again. Sweet! :D

the point where it's perfectly natural and everything just looks and feels right.

.. because it's as close to reality as it can be for a Sim (for the time being at least).
 
IMO the response of GT6 without ABS isn't too bad. I don't understand why people who wants a simulation physics, drives with this option set in 1 when in this post from amar212, are very clear what kind of assist ABS in GT is.

But, few weeks ago I can try some runs with F1 in Assetto Corsa, and for a first time I feel the car with a lot of sensations, easy to drive, very predictible but it still nervous and punish hard your little mistakes. The braking sensation on Assetto's F1 seems to me the most accurated. I will be very happy if PCars is something similar, I have a lot of hope with SMS work.

P.D. Sorry for my English, I'm trying to do my best.
 
It is so convincing that after a nice long country drive on a point to point track, when I come to park the vehicle at the end, I reach for a non-sim-existent gear lever to my left to leave it in neutral before applying the parking break. It's just a long automatic pattern established from scores of years of real driving, and it makes me chuckle when it happens at the end of say Glava Zeta or Transfagarasen (excuse my spelling). Now I'm using the proper viewing angle (of 27 degrees) that most closely matches real life, the sim qualities of AC really come to the fore especially with the outstanding physics and FFB.
.

Your comment made me smile, as I had a similar experience. Like you I drive in AC with the proper viewing angle ( 37 in my case) and some time, after stopping the car, I am reaching for the seatbelt to undo. :D
Amazing what you can suggest to your brain when you present a believable reality to your eyes.
Next step and next expense, Oculus Rift CV.:sly:
 
Is GT6's physics comparable to Project Cars'? Is it more/less forgiving? I wish I could demo this game!!
It is more forgiving than GT6 especially when driving without any driving aids IMO but I think that is a good thing. GT6 you need a lot of finesse to go quick and be really smooth if without driving aids so if you can do that well on GT6 then pCARS transition should be quite comfortable
 
It is more forgiving than GT6 especially when driving without any driving aids IMO but I think that is a good thing. GT6 you need a lot of finesse to go quick and be really smooth if without driving aids so if you can do that well on GT6 then pCARS transition should be quite comfortable


Gosh, so many mixed reviews here.
 
Gosh, so many mixed reviews here.

I can't speak for GT6, but if it is anything like GT5 then I think I might know what Saidur means. In GT5 a lot of the cars had a very sudden transition from grip to no grip/snapped quite violently. The transition is much more progressive in pCARS than GT(5), much like real tires. Because of this the game can feel very forgiving in a way, but don't mistake that for being arcadey. Of course some tires have higher peak slip angles than others so street tires are obviously more forgiving than race tires.
 
Gosh, so many mixed reviews here.
Actually I thought we were all saying the same thing:lol: It's not a black and white issue that one is more "forgiving" than the other because forgiving is such a broad term. Just my opinion but to me a more appropriate question might be which game or games give the most feedback to the driver when the car is at or near the limits? Which game or platform gives you the most and most accurate information as to what a car is doing on the limit and which is closest to how a real car performs on the limit? For me it's all about knowing what is happening with the car and when a mistake is made I don't want to be scratching my head wondereing what happened. Did I clip the grass? Did I get the suspension bouncing over a rough curb? Did the inside or outside wheel lose grip? Am I understeering because the front end is locked up or pushing or both? Sims aren't perfect by any stretch, I just think they overall do a better job of giving you the information you need to be a good driver and it's more accurately simulated relative to real life. But not perfect:sly:
 
Like Johnnypenso, I find the best simulators are easier and more forgiving to me than many arcade racers. Nothing unexpected happens (or it's rare), and I can more comfortably predict my trajectory at any given moment.
 
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