Physics thread

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GTAndy36
Given that I had my first experience with RaceRoom today with the T300RS... if what your saying turns out to be correct... then this is going to be something truly special. RaceRoom felt fantastic, especially with the SLS GT3 and the BMW M3 E30 that I drove. If this also translates 1:1 with the PS4 version... oh man I'm getting goosebumps.

I really really hope you're not hyping this up for hyping sakes. I'm sure you're not... it just sounds a little to unbelievable right now.
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Hand across my heart. I swear that I'm not hyping for hyping sakes, but telling you my true honest opinion.

Personally I have tried for hours to get the FFB in R3E working with the CSWv2 in a respectable fashion, but I just couldn't find a decent setting. To me the way the system works and how you set it up feels very dated, like if it's developed around 10 years ago and hasn't been touched since.
R3E just can't satisfy me at all on a force feedback level. I might even say it's one of the worst out there, or at least with the worst. Simraceway is a likewise experience.


Oh and if you think I haven't played or own enough racing games to compare... if you sift through my Steam games list (of 339 games) I think you will notice I don't miss any racing/driving game yet. Plus owning offline copies of Grand Prix Legends and so on. ;)
So yeah, it's not like I don't have any comparison material (games or hardware).

Steam List: https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561197984223300/
 
LogiForce
Hand across my heart. I swear that I'm not hyping for hyping sakes, but telling you my true honest opinion.

Personally I have tried for hours to get the FFB in R3E working with the CSWv2 in a respectable fashion, but I just couldn't find a decent setting. To me the way the system works and how you set it up feels very dated, like if it's developed around 10 years ago and hasn't been touched since.
R3E just can't satisfy me at all on a force feedback level. I might even say it's one of the worst out there, or at least with the worst. Simraceway is a likewise experience.


Oh and if you think I haven't played or own enough racing games to compare... if you sift through my Steam games list (of 339 games) I think you will notice I don't miss any racing/driving game yet. Plus owning offline copies of Grand Prix Legends and so on. ;)
So yeah, it's not like I don't have any comparison material (games or hardware).

Steam List: https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561197984223300/
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I don't question your honesty.

Just as someone who is pinning all his hopes on the PS4 version of Project CARS... I've bought myself a PS4, a T300RS and ClubSport V2 pedals in the last 2 months (now just waiting for CPX)... I just hope it's going to all be worth it.
 
GTAndy36
I don't question your honesty.

Just as someone who is pinning all his hopes on the PS4 version of Project CARS... I've bought myself a PS4, a T300RS and ClubSport V2 pedals in the last 2 months (now just waiting for CPX)... I just hope it's going to all be worth it.
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Well, worth is something that is measured by the individuals standing and his priorities. So I can't really claim it will be as that all depends on how you personally will experience it.
I do wish you, come April, a lot of joy playing the game me and many others from the sim community have worked on for so long, because I can't imagine it being a complete disappointment and thus there should be joy to be had somewhere about something within the game. ;)
 
FuriousDemon
Also, keep in mind that LogiForce was, at some point, very critical of FFB in pcars. I think he was even going to throw in the towel at some point, correct me if I'm wrong, but as you can see he did a 180.
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Not sure as to what the reason was, but I can take a guess.

I'm a person who his pro pure physics driven force feedback with any fake/canned effects as overlay to attenuate certain situations (like the back stepping out). The reason is that I want to feel what the physics is feeding back to me, and not what a programmer thinks I should be feeling and developing an effect to activate in a given situation. This is something especially important during development, because you want to feel how the tyres behave and how the car is reacting to it. Putting layers of developer designed effects over the top of that pure signal would just make things muddy and hard to pick out nuances.

I'm pretty sure that what happened was that the defaults changed as the developers listened to the community members. Sometimes in my favour and other times in the favour of other members.

The problem is that each member has a different wheel, and different expectations. Wheels also have their own share of 'issues' to be dealt with when dialing in FFB. Deadzones, rattling, cogging, gears having some play in them. The list goes on.

Also I think some members have gotten used to 'weight transfer/seat of pants' effects. Meaning they have gotten used to how it artificially feels. Which to me always felt like a too strong, too fast and too much on G-force or actual weight transfer based, and to me that is completely inaccurate when a car steps out.

What happens when a car steps out is that the wheels keep moving in a straight line, but the car rotates (oversteers) around the center point between the two front wheels.
Why? Because these wheels are connected to a spindle, which has a spindle/steering arm. To this arm the tie-rod is connected, which goes into the steering rack. In the steering rack there is another rod called the rack. The rack has a pinion to which the steering wheel is connected via the steering shaft.
The rack moves freely with the tie-rods and wheels on either end. This means that if the front wheels are glued stationary to the ground and the car would oversteer, rotating around the front wheels, the steering wheel will automatically and completely naturally countersteer by itself.
The "glue" that keeps the tyres going in a straigth line is the self aligning torque and grip of the tyres. After all, it is easier for the tyre to keep rolling in a straight line than twist around its center axis. Which can be felt when trying to turn the steering wheel in your own car when stationary (especially without powersteering), and that's pretty hard to due.

Picture for visual reference of the above:
steering-rack.jpg


So that is why I'm against using any weight transfer effect of any kind. If the FFB comes directly from the front wheels than you'll be able to feel what the car is doing at the rear. All with the right amount of force, speed and timing. Most importantly, without oscillation. After all the fluids in the car (like that in the gas tank) tend to swish around, plus the damping doesn't instantly stabilize the car. Weight always tends to oscillate a bit in a car, which doesn't make it for an ideal FFB effect... especially not with oscillation sensitive FFB wheels. ;)


*reads back* I went on a rant I see... ooops?! :P

Nah, the force feedback has greatly improved. For some wheels there might be some special settings by default by now (maybe someone can confirm this?), but mostly the FFB is direct and pure off of the actual geometry of the car. So the way the spindle is designed, how the suspension is designed, wheel alignment setup, what type of rack it is, etc. I say type of rack as a Huayra doesn't feel the same as a GT3 car or a Formula A car. Each car really feel authentic and different.


Anyhow... end of rant and the beginning of a period of snoring for me. In other words, goodnight! :gtpflag:
 
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GTAndy36
I don't question your honesty.

Just as someone who is pinning all his hopes on the PS4 version of Project CARS... I've bought myself a PS4, a T300RS and ClubSport V2 pedals in the last 2 months (now just waiting for CPX)... I just hope it's going to all be worth it.
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I already had the PS4, but swap clubsport pedals for GT Omega stand and I've basically dine the same thing! lol
 
scubieroo
yeah, just hoping all the wonderful things logiforce said aren't dumbed down, or at least not too much on the console
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It won't be. Only graphics are touched to achieve 1080p@60fps. Sounds, Physics and FFB are the same. At least I did not notice any console specific FFB tweaks being done.
 
Johnnypenso
IMO, and this is a good thing, non-race cars feel even better on a wheel for many reasons but in large part because they are less predictable and usually much more is happening in terms of FFB, especially on older rubber. If you liked the racecars in R3E, you'll love street cars and race cars in PCars even more:dopey:
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I always find your posts to be balanced and informative. Can I ask, are you in WMD and have early access to Pcars? Are you solely on PC or console too? Im assuming "Yes, PC only" but just wanted to check!

I have no actual idea what to expect in terms of handling and ffb. Im a console gamer and went from 360 and forza to PS4 and Driveclub. I think Pcars will be far more sim than either of those and the ffb sounds like it will have far more "feeling" to it than Im used to from Driveclub, which doesnt feel like it especially communicates what the car is doing (to me personally). I expect to know what the car is doing with my eyes closed and thats how it sounds like it is. Any opinions on this from people with more ffb experience and especially wmd guys?
 
BarryB
I always find your posts to be balanced and informative. Can I ask, are you in WMD and have early access to Pcars? Are you solely on PC or console too? Im assuming "Yes, PC only" but just wanted to check!

I have no actual idea what to expect in terms of handling and ffb. Im a console gamer and went from 360 and forza to PS4 and Driveclub. I think Pcars will be far more sim than either of those and the ffb sounds like it will have far more "feeling" to it than Im used to from Driveclub, which doesnt feel like it especially communicates what the car is doing (to me personally). I expect to know what the car is doing with my eyes closed and thats how it sounds like it is. Any opinions on this from people with more ffb experience and especially wmd guys?
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Well thank you very much:tup:👍 I'm not a WMD member, I've just tried to stay abreast of game progress as best I can. I am solely PC at the moment but was a console player only up until a few months ago. The TM wheel exclusive fiasco on PS4, and me with a nearly new G27 made me give some thought to switching to PC before PCars came out because the cost of next-gen+new wheel was almost the same as new PC + keep old wheel.
 
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Yeah, I never had a wheel before and only consoles, so it wasnt really an issue for me. Omwas going to be forking out for a wheel and stand either way! lol
 
BarryB
I always find your posts to be balanced and informative. Can I ask, are you in WMD and have early access to Pcars? Are you solely on PC or console too? Im assuming "Yes, PC only" but just wanted to check!

I have no actual idea what to expect in terms of handling and ffb. Im a console gamer and went from 360 and forza to PS4 and Driveclub. I think Pcars will be far more sim than either of those and the ffb sounds like it will have far more "feeling" to it than Im used to from Driveclub, which doesnt feel like it especially communicates what the car is doing (to me personally). I expect to know what the car is doing with my eyes closed and thats how it sounds like it is. Any opinions on this from people with more ffb experience and especially wmd guys?
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If the FFB and physics is done right (I assume it is, judging by the latest posts), the game should be easy and intuitive to drive, especially if you already tried karts, spirited driving or trackdays IRL.

There should be no need to re-learn the handling and grip, because the FFB should tell you all about car handling and grip limits. AC has done this very well, the limit is easily felt through FFB and tire scrubbing. You shouldn't look at your speedometer and calculate how fast you can go through some corner. All you need is a shift indicator and once you know the engine pitch when to shift, you can disable that too.

Once you know the car and track so well, you can start racing.
 
FuriousDemon
From where I stand, I can only second the opinion on FFB. I've tried R3E just the other day for the first time and it felt kind of sad. If I never played pCARS I'd probably think it's bee's knees, but it just doesn't cut it for me. And I only have an old and cheap DFGT. Oh how I wish I could try a better wheel, but I can't justify buying one since I don't have as much time for the racing anymore. Again, pCARS is not perfect in many ways, but it does have a kick ass FFB with a very good physics engine behind it.
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I wouldn't worry about R3E, I tried it too a week or so back. First time I was not impressed at all. It felt wholly alien in almost every way (well I've gotten used to AC). So I waited a couple of days and had another go. This time for longer and I did enjoy the experience, but the whole thing still feels like a constructed environment rather than a natural one which IMO I get with AC. So it is fun and looks like it is put together just for that purpose (no bad thing), but for me unrealistic. I just don't get the satisfaction of accomplishment at the end of the driving experience in R3E.

Edit, meant to say I use a T500RS wheel and pedals.
 
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InSight
If the FFB and physics is done right (I assume it is, judging by the latest posts), the game should be easy and intuitive to drive, especially if you already tried karts, spirited driving or trackdays IRL.

There should be no need to re-learn the handling and grip, because the FFB should tell you all about car handling and grip limits. AC has done this very well, the limit is easily felt through FFB and tire scrubbing. You shouldn't look at your speedometer and calculate how fast you can go through some corner. All you need is a shift indicator and once you know the engine pitch when to shift, you can disable that too.

Once you know the car and track so well, you can start racing.
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Ive not done any of those, but do think I know how a car should feel. So that sounds perfect to me! :D
 
I can say honestly that I truly believe the FFB in Pcars feeds you information better than any other I've tried. The assortment of value sliders relating to just FFB adjustment is staggering and thats just in the control settings. Each car has a further adjustment in the car setup which in itself is more than most titles have in total and you can save that to each individual tracks car setup.

FFB is ticked guys, you can crank every possible setting far beyond what youll ever need.

I'm excited for you all and wish in a way I had not been a backer and was about to experience this new title as you all are about to. Knowing what I know makes me jealous that I can't experience the release day excitement also.

If i was you I would book the Friday 3rd off work, your going to need a long weekend :)
 
Alex Bonner
I can say honestly that I truly believe the FFB in Pcars feeds you information better than any other I've tried. The assortment of value sliders relating to just FFB adjustment is staggering and thats just in the control settings. Each car has a further adjustment in the car setup which in itself is more than most titles have in total and you can save that to each individual tracks car setup.

FFB is ticked guys, you can crank every possible setting far beyond what youll ever need.

I'm excited for you all and wish in a way I had not been a backer and was about to experience this new title as you all are about to. Knowing what I know makes me jealous that I can't experience the release day excitement also.

If i was you I would book the Friday 3rd off work, your going to need a long weekend :)
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Its a bank holiday isnt it?
 
Ya, i got to know today that i will be working in China for several weeks when the game is released. Only good thing is that i have steam installed on my mobile workstation and will hopefully be able to do some pad driving at least :(:banghead:
 
LogiForce
It won't be. Only graphics are touched to achieve 1080p@60fps. Sounds, Physics and FFB are the same. At least I did not notice any console specific FFB tweaks being done.
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Is adjustable ffb going to be available on console versions as well?
 
scubieroo
Is adjustable ffb going to be available on console versions as well?
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It will be identical via PC and available in the game menu. Part of it on the controller setup menu, other part on a per car basis in the car setup menu.
 
blowfishrulez
Ya, i got to know today that i will be working in China for several weeks when the game is released. Only good thing is that i have steam installed on my mobile workstation and will hopefully be able to do some pad driving at least :(:banghead:
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You need to look for a way to store a DFGT in your suitcase. It's light and not to powerful to rattle the hotel desks apart. :P
Maybe you will have to remove the desk-clamps, and in the worst case the steering wheel. The pedals should be flat enough when depressed I think. ;)
 
NLxAROSA
I know you're joking, but getting one second hand over there and selling it when you leave is a viable option. ;)
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That would be a nice thing too. Maybe it'll even be cheaper? No transport costs and such as it's made in chine after all. ;)
 
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UkHardcore23
I feel your pain, My daughters birthday on the 3rd and were going to Flamingo Land for the weekend :banghead:
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Daddy's cursing his daughter's birthday. Uh oh! :eek: :lol:
I hope you have a lovely time with your family anyway.

At least you can play for a minute on the 2nd I hope? You just have to make sure everything is packed and ready, which shouldn't be too much for a weekend.
 
^^This is what I meant in earlier post. If FFB and physics are done right, anyone can get confident with the car and drive consistent clean laps and close to the limit very quickly.

That gradual grip loss, feeling and controlling the car on and over the limit through FFB, is what makes AC so great. And looks like Pcars is on the same track. I know this is a pcars thread, but AC is the only reference for good FFB I have, lol.
 

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