Physics thread

[LogiForce]

^^^ Let me explain about the braking comments in the video that most (if not all) braking pressure settings in the car setup are set to less than 100% by default. This is done for gamepad users and even more so keyboard users, so that they don't lock-up brakes that easily. Thus lowering the difficulty and chance to spin out a bit.

So yea, setting the pressure to 100% will give you enough pressure to lock-up the wheels. It's all in the correct setup for your driving style, but in general console gamers often are of the plug and play gaming experience... so yeah.

 

[DrJustice]

^^This is what I meant in earlier post. If FFB and physics are done right, anyone can get confident with the car and drive consistent clean laps and close to the limit very quickly.

That gradual grip loss, feeling and controlling the car on and over the limit through FFB, is what makes AC so great. And looks like Pcars is on the same track. I know this is a pcars thread, but AC is the only reference for good FFB I have, lol.

Another thing was the talk about kerbs. Ben Collins has been quite clear in his comments on kerbs throughout the project: In general you can hammer kerbs without the car getting so unsettled that you lose control, although less so in the wet. One of the main reasons to stay off kerbs is to not damage the car, esp. in long races. Currently the kerb behaviour makes Ben happy. (You can read about this in the driver feedback document)

 

[GTAndy36]

Another things was the talk about kerbs. Ben Collins has been quite clear in his comments on kerbs throughout the project: In general you can hammer kerbs without the car getting so unsettled that you lose control, although less so in the wet. One of the main reasons to stay off kerbs is to not damage the car, esp. in long races. Currently the kerb behaviour makes Ben happy. (You can read about this in the driver feedback document)

Great. I've never understood why some games absolutely kill you when you hit the kerbing, as it's clear in real life this simply isn't the case. Even in the wet, it's advisable to be cautious over them... but by no means should they be something to stay well clear from. (Obviously there are exceptions, when it comes to height and angles etc)

 

[DrJustice]

^ Yeah, there are some notorious killer kerbs out there, but in general kerbs aren't race-enders. AFAIK (Ben has talked about this too), typical painted concrete kerbs have good abrasive grip in the dry because of their rough texture. I'd think the adhesive grip is somewhat less because of the paint, so of course you want to keep it smooth and steady when going over those kerbs.

 

[FuriousDemon]

Funny thing about kerbs. Some time ago kerbs would pretty much mean a spinout in pCARS, so iracing fans would be happy. Ben sorted it out though, and rightly so.

 

[GTAndy36]

^ Yeah, there are some notorious killer kerbs out there, but in general kerbs aren't race-enders. AFAIK (Ben has talked about this too), typical painted concrete kerbs have good abrasive grip in the dry because of their rough texture. I'd think the adhesive grip is somewhat less because of the paint, so of course you want to keep it smooth and steady when going over a kerb.

Yep, they do indeed. Had the pleasure of walking parts of Brands Hatch, and the kerbs there are just as abrasive as the tarmac, if not more so on the real scuffed up ones.

 

[super_gt]

^^^ Let me explain about the braking comments in the video that most (if not all) braking pressure settings in the car setup are set to less than 100% by default. This is done for gamepad users and even more so keyboard users, so that they don't lock-up brakes that easily. Thus lowering the difficulty and chance to spin out a bit.

So yea, setting the pressure to 100% will give you enough pressure to lock-up the wheels. It's all in the correct setup for your driving style, but in general console gamers often are of the plug and play gaming experience... so yeah.

What about the understeer at the limit?
If I do not like it can I make the car lose with the settings?

 

[Wolfe]

^^^ Let me explain about the braking comments in the video that most (if not all) braking pressure settings in the car setup are set to less than 100% by default. This is done for gamepad users and even more so keyboard users, so that they don't lock-up brakes that easily. Thus lowering the difficulty and chance to spin out a bit.

So yea, setting the pressure to 100% will give you enough pressure to lock-up the wheels. It's all in the correct setup for your driving style, but in general console gamers often are of the plug and play gaming experience... so yeah.

Don't tell me PCARS is going to be another one of those games where you supposedly have to manually tweak all the cars yourself to get them to drive the way they do in real life? Timppaq also mentioned something similar about default differential settings in the Video Thread.

That's disappointing. I'm a fan of "plug and play" when it means I don't have to tweak settings to properly simulate the game's roster of cars. Manually inputting reasonable values for the tire pressures and steering/suspension settings for every car I wanted to use in Shift 2 Unleashed was one of the worst things about that game.

I can live with it if the game is worth it, but still. To me, the whole point of having licensed cars is to have them dialled in the way they actually are. It's also difficult to make a fair comparison of physics if you're playing with the settings to alter the driving experience to your liking.

 

[scubieroo]

There is no single setup for a race car......................

Different tracks and weather conditions will mean different tunes will be required for maximum performance

 

[GTAndy36]

There is no single setup for a race car......................

No, but they shouldn't be sanitised then classed as 'default' either.

 

[scubieroo]

I'm not sure what the "default" tunes are like but I mean you can't use the same tune at LeMans and the glen and expect great results at both

 

[Wolfe]

It's also a bit of a Gran-Turismo-ism in that if you'd prefer to play with a personal "default" -- for example, enough brake strength to lock the wheels -- you'll presumably have to undo those default settings every time you change to a new car.

 

[LogiForce]

What about the understeer at the limit?
If I do not like it can I make the car lose with the settings?

Of course you can.

Don't tell me PCARS is going to be another one of those games where you supposedly have to manually tweak all the cars yourself to get them to drive the way they do in real life? Timppaq also mentioned something similar about default differential settings in the Video Thread.

That's disappointing. I'm a fan of "plug and play" when it means I don't have to tweak settings to properly simulate the game's roster of cars. Manually inputting reasonable values for the tire pressures and steering/suspension settings for every car I wanted to use in Shift 2 Unleashed was one of the worst things about that game.

I can live with it if the game is worth it, but still. To me, the whole point of having licensed cars is to have them dialled in the way they actually are. It's also difficult to make a fair comparison of physics if you're playing with the settings to alter the driving experience to your liking.

I'm talking about brake pressure here. One slider in the game.
Next to that you are forgetting this is a racing simulator. When you race professionally you will need to setup the car for your driving style to be competitive in the field. So learning on how to improve your car is essential when it comes to playing simulators, else it's better to stick to GT, Forza and whatever Codemasters spits out every year.

That said, I've been on your side during development until the end. I more than once said that we have to adapt factory settings for road/trackday cars. For race cars we'd have to go with a setup as an engineer would give you on your first lap out, although that differs from track to track. But in general they have a fixed safe setup from which race cars are being tweaked for the track during practice sessions.
I think we did lower the tyre pressures for certain cars, since that's something that is done for trackdays as well. Some cars have ranges from road springs and dampers to race versions for that car, and so on.


So yeah, some setup might be required if you wish to get it back to factory defaults (if there are any). It's not my decision though. I've been raising tyre and brake pressures since forever, as I prefer a more normal tyre pressure and I want to have every bit of braking power available under my foot.

 

[Wolfe]

@LogiForce -- Well I had my concern that it went deeper than brake strength and tire pressure. Like you said, I expect factory settings for roadcars and plausible settings for racecars, not things like soft brakes or mild limited-slip differentials for playability.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm talking about brake pressure here. One slider in the game.
Next to that you are forgetting this is a racing simulator. When you race professionally you will need to setup the car for your driving style to be competitive in the field. So learning on how to improve your car is essential when it comes to playing simulators, else it's better to stick to GT, Forza and whatever Codemasters spits out every year.

I obviously haven't played PCars but given the number of quirks, counter intuitive and downright backwards settings in GT6 (can't vouch for Forza or Codies games) that are well known in the tuning community, I'd guess that a default tune in PCars or any racing simulator for that matter, is going to be closer to the limit than the default settings in Gran Turismo.

In any sim though, you will benefit from understanding car behaviour and how to make adjustments to the car to get it to behave the way you want it to behave. The basics are still the same in all games as far as I can tell. You need a transmission that launches well from standing starts and stays in the ideal rpm range throughout the circuit, LSD tuned to minimize wheelspin and stablize corner entry, aero to balance out lateral grip and top speed, and camber tuned to maximize grip and control tire temps.

 

[DrJustice]

In general the default setups will most likely be on the safe, or driveable, side rather than the other. It makes sense IMO. That's not to say they're not realistic, fun and challenging to drive out of the box. For more experienced and adventurous drivers, touching a setting or two can be enough to make it e.g. more satisfyingly edgy (or the other way even... individual tastes, driving style, YMMV etc.) - it only takes a few seconds for a basic tweak.

I think that car setup is an interesting part of a sim racing game. It's also part of the race craft, and you ought to try playing around with it to make the cars yours and getting the best experience for you. Getting your 'moneys worth', if you will...

 

[InSight]

The basics are still the same in all games as far as I can tell. You need a transmission that launches well from standing starts and stays in the ideal rpm range throughout the circuit, LSD tuned to minimize wheelspin and stablize corner entry, aero to balance out lateral grip and top speed, and camber tuned to maximize grip and control tire temps.

You're forgetting the black art of suspension tuning. I use this quick&dirty guide as a reference:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/terry.cresswell/handling.html

 

[tfujiwara]

I hope the smoothness of the rpm and wheel spin between shifts can feel pleasing, i mean like, the rough idles when you shift hard as hell just before the valves bounce off or right after the first bounce, Like a Ferrari 288 GTO or a Lexus LFA, oh my god. Sorry if i sound noob-ish but tiny details like that can affect the driving experience for me, like wanting to install a dual lightweight clutch or keeping it single for a sweet kick after a shift. Based on gameplay that i've seen it looks a little dissapointing for me

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

I hope the smoothness of the rpm and wheel spin between shifts can feel pleasing, i mean like, the rough idles when you shift hard as hell just before the valves bounce off or right after the first bounce, Like a Ferrari 288 GTO or a Lexus LFA, oh my god. Sorry if i sound noob-ish but tiny details like that can affect the driving experience for me, like wanting to install a dual lightweight clutch or keeping it single for a sweet kick after a shift. Based on gameplay that i've seen it looks a little dissapointing for me

For discussion sake, which racing game gives you that experience?

 

[tfujiwara]

For discussion sake, which racing game gives you that experience?

Forza 4, PGR4

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Forza 4, PGR4

I will have to fire up em up for a kick, can't say I ever got much feedback from those. When I move my wheel setup from the PC to the console everything just feels dead (FFB) but maybe I overlooked some of the sound nuances.

 

[legatoblues]

That said, I've been on your side during development until the end. I more than once said that we have to adapt factory settings for road/trackday cars...
...I think we did lower the tyre pressures for certain cars, since that's something that is done for trackdays as well. Some cars have ranges from road springs and dampers to race versions for that car, and so on.

Just wanted to mention that the advice handed out at my local tracks is that those running on road tyres with standard suspension geometry should increase pressures to make sure that the sidewall doesn't fold under the rim under high cornering load.

 

[LogiForce]

Just wanted to mention that the advice handed out at my local tracks is that those running on road tyres with standard suspension geometry should increase pressures to make sure that the sidewall doesn't fold under the rim under high cornering load.

Which tracks or those?

From the guys at WMD I heard that it was more usual to lower tyre pressure. This so that you get a bigger contact patch, but to me the sidewalls indeed never felt supporting enough in Project CARS with those lowered tyre pressures. Using factory stock tyre pressures and especially the full-load ones already improves tyre behavior in my opinion. Too much and you get a too small contact patch, or the tyres become more camber setting sensitive.

Personally I also like to drive with higher tyre pressures. In fact my Lancia Delta mentions 2.4 bar all-around with full-load. I use 2.6 with my Michelin Energy Savers. I dunno if the sidewalls are weak of them, but I just prefer that slightly higher tyre pressure, even on the road. Although that's maybe because I play pCARS too much and tend to test cornering behaviour in practice as well... on the public road. Of course where possible and in safe conditions as I don't wish to wreck it.

 

[Cholton82]

I'd personally run a slightly lower tyre pressure on my yoko ao48's as the pressures increases slightly as they warm up ( unless they are Nitrogen filled ) I'm talking track day not general driving

 

[scubieroo]

When I was at a track day a few years back on bridgestone potenzas my instructor had me aiming for 38psi hot. This was for a Subaru sti fwiw but it followed the same reasoning as legatoblues mentioned

 

[UkHardcore23]

How are the physics online with bumps and scrapes? Put around 500 hours into Forza 5 and online the slightest little touch from cars when online sends you off into a spin it's as if the cars weigh nothing rather than weighing over a ton...Any similar issues with PCars?

 

[GranTurismo guy]

How are the physics online with bumps and scrapes? Put around 500 hours into Forza 5 and online the slightest little touch from cars when online sends you off into a spin it's as if the cars weigh nothing rather than weighing over a ton...Any similar issues with PCars?

Issues? Pcars? Those two things don't even go together in a sentence

 

[legatoblues]

Which tracks or those?

Queensland Raceway and Lakeside Park in Brisbane, Australia. Everything you've said about pressures and contact patches is correct, but this is talking specifically about road tyres, not semi-slicks or even high performance street rubber.

When I was at a track day a few years back on bridgestone potenzas my instructor had me aiming for 38psi hot. This was for a Subaru sti fwiw but it followed the same reasoning as legatoblues mentioned

Yeah, around 38 is the target mentioned, with around 30psi hot being a good starting point for those with track rubber. I used a Kuhmo V70A's on my 5-series road car and needed to start at about 28psi, whereas with the Yoko AO50's on the 3-series track car, 26psi start worked quite well.

 

[GumShoe]

I obviously haven't played PCars but given the number of quirks, counter intuitive and downright backwards settings in GT6 (can't vouch for Forza or Codies games) that are well known in the tuning community, I'd guess that a default tune in PCars or any racing simulator for that matter, is going to be closer to the limit than the default settings in Gran Turismo.

In any sim though, you will benefit from understanding car behaviour and how to make adjustments to the car to get it to behave the way you want it to behave. The basics are still the same in all games as far as I can tell. You need a transmission that launches well from standing starts and stays in the ideal rpm range throughout the circuit, LSD tuned to minimize wheelspin and stablize corner entry, aero to balance out lateral grip and top speed, and camber tuned to maximize grip and control tire temps.

One thing worth mentioning - though I'm not experienced enough myself with setup tuning - is that Project CARS seems to get this right: setup changes result in changes to the car that match real life expectations.

I've seen it mentioned multiple times on the forum (even by Ben C and Nic H) that while a car wasn't to their liking on the default tune, when they changed the setup to what they would prefer, the car responded as expected

Hopefully we shouldn't see any of those crazy GT like setup 'quirks' unless an obscure bug

 

[Mike_grpA]

One thing worth mentioning - though I'm not experienced enough myself with setup tuning - is that Project CARS seems to get this right: setup changes result in changes to the car that match real life expectations.

I've seen it mentioned multiple times on the forum (even by Ben C and Nic H) that while a car wasn't to their liking on the default tune, when they changed the setup to what they would prefer, the car responded as expected

Hopefully we shouldn't see any of those crazy GT like setup 'quirks' unless an obscure bug

Reading this makes me so happy lol.

On gt6, before I got the net on, I set my cars up with a basic tune from my knowledge of real cars, then tested, and changed things accordingly. Once I got the net on, and read about how gt6 tuning works (or doesn't...), I had to completely re-wire my brain for gt6 tuning to extract performance out of my cars (and promptly found out my "real" tunes were multiple seconds slower than stupid gt "tunes").

I will be in heaven to once again just use common sense to tune cars lol.

...And camber, oh how I miss playing with camber :'(