Physics thread

[GranTurismo guy]

Talking about how loud transmission whine can be...

BMW 320i STW of driver Rolf van Os on TT Circuit Assen

Depending on my current mood I love it or hate it.

 

[LogiForce]

While transmission whine can get loud, on this recording it sounds like there's a high frequency resonance hitting the microphone through the mechanical structure, or the mic is placed right next to, and pointing at the transmission. The whine gets to drown out all other sound and clip. If it was that loud relative to the other sounds, at the position of the drivers ears, I don't think it would be possible for humans to sit in the cockpit

Actually I was at the track with my dad and a friend of mine at the time, we could hear that car's transmission whine across the entire track from our position at the start/finish line. Which was already hurting my ears when it just passed us. So it shouldn't be too far off from a stripped bare BMW ex BTCC car. The driver just has his earplugs and helmet to give a lot of soundproofing.
In any case, the whine definitely was the dominant sound of that BMW. It was even treated as the guy's signature BMW sound at some point by the announcer at the track. Just wish there was more footage online of the DSC from that year, apart from this...

http://www.supercarchallenge.nl/nl/rizla_racing_days_iii_4th_august_2002.html

He drives on camera at 44 minutes in ish, but doesn't sound as bad as it did in real life imo. It's as if the microphone is muffled a bit. I was sitting in the main tribune that has a roof on it, so resonance could have enhanced the sound there too.

 

[DrJustice]

Yes, it can be very loud, but that recording was bad and not representative of what the driver hears. In any case, I don't want my sims to sound anything like that

 

[LogiForce]

Yes, it can be very loud, but that recording was bad and not representative of what the driver hears. In any case, I don't want my sims to sound anything like that

Well, it depends on what 'cam' you use in the game. Helmet view or a cockpit view. Helmet view is using helmet dampening while the other views are not. So it should sound like that in cockpit view if the car has such loud straight cut gears in the gearbox.
In my opinion if we deviate from the real sound because otherwise it will hurt our ears, I think that would mean we deviate from the simulation aspect of these games. Cause than you would be removing or muffling noises and doing this again by using helmet cam... making helmet cam sound even more unrealistic.

Don't get me wrong though. I do find your hate for the noise very reasonable but some race cars do have downsides like this to them, and in my opinion we should simulate both the good and the bad in a simulation game. If it were a semi-sim like Shift was than I think its within allowances.

It's the same as with the way the turbo comes in on a Lotus 98T. Would you remove its harshness because it's hard to handle for you? Not really, cause it was even hard to handle for the great people driving these in real life back in the day.
So yeah, I wouldn't 'polish away' the bad things in a sim even if I hate/dislike them.

 

[DrJustice]

^ Just for the record: Neither do I hate transmission whine, nor am I suggesting polishing away realism.

In this context, what I don't want is inconveniencing exaggerations of any kind. Like too much or too little of any kind of sound. Make it spot on, then add options to adjust it for those who want more or less of it. I wouldn't say that e.g. having the most extreme transmission whine known to man at an exaggerated volume that will damage your hearing adds anything to the simulation.

Of course I want transmission whine, but nothing like in that video which misrepresents the phenomenon. That was my point. Enough about that, I guess

 

[Wolfe]

Realistic noises of all sorts are fine, as long as it's not overblown in an attempt to make it more "impressive", like some of the hideous clipped audio in Forza Motorsport 4.

 

[GTAndy36]

Realistic noises of all sorts are fine, as long as it's not overblown in an attempt to make it more "impressive", like some of the hideous clipped audio in Forza Motorsport 4.

I thought NFS Shift was one of the worst offenders in the sound department as well. Just hearing some of the noises coming out of what was supposed to be a stock Nissan Skyline 2000 GT-R (KPGC-10) was laughable.

 

[Sele1981]

After playing Assetto Corsa for hours, I wonder how the physics from PC are compared to AC? In AC you can even feel the weight of the fuel, what is great feeling.

I read a few comments that AC wins when it comes to physics.

 

[VBR]

After playing Assetto Corsa for hours, I wonder how the physics from PC are compared to AC? In AC you can even feel the weight of the fuel, what is great feeling.

I read a few comments that AC wins when it comes to physics.

This season, 'AC fanboys vs P Cars fanboys' is the new 'GT fanboys vs Forza fanboys'!

 

[starknight97]

This season, 'AC fanboys vs P Cars fanboys' is the new 'GT fanboys vs Forza fanboys'!

I cannot predict what I will be yet. Probably Project CARS if the physics turn out good otherwise I may be a 'fanboy' of both.

 

[Awong124]

This season, 'AC fanboys vs P Cars fanboys' is the new 'GT fanboys vs Forza fanboys'!

I don't really think that would materialize, at least not to that extent. I think a big reason for GT vs Forza was because they were exclusive to PS and Xbox respectively.

 

[fatkrakr]

Having both games I can say as of now it is hands down AC, but that could change before release.

 

[Sele1981]

This season, 'AC fanboys vs P Cars fanboys' is the new 'GT fanboys vs Forza fanboys'!

Probably! But not for me, I will get both of them. But I really liked what I've seen in AC and was wondering how the P cars physics are in comparison.

@fatkrakr

What is the difference? What is better in AC physics?

 

[Adam41]

I don't like some of the physics of the apparently close-to-completed road cars. The Caterham R500 as an example is too tail happy and doesn't have enough rear grip.

 

[fatkrakr]

Probably! But not for me, I will get both of them. But I really liked what I've seen in AC and was wondering how the P cars physics are in comparison.

@fatkrakr

What is the difference? What is better in AC physics?

I guess it has to be weight transfer as most others have stated. Its not just that you can feel it, but that you can actually use it. A lot of games have weight transfer model, but AC is the first sim I have played that it can be used to your advantage or disadvantage depending on the situation. You can actually set the weight of the car on the corner you want.
Plus with Pcars just because you like a car today doesn't mean it will feel the same tomarrow, so it is hard to give a definite opinion on how any car feels, but overall I think AC has by far the best simracing physics out right now. Will have to wait a bit longer before anything definite can be said though.

 

[Sele1981]

I guess it has to be weight transfer as most others have stated. Its not just that you can feel it, but that you can actually use it. A lot of games have weight transfer model, but AC is the first sim I have played that it can be used to your advantage or disadvantage depending on the situation. You can actually set the weight of the car on the corner you want.
Plus with Pcars just because you like a car today doesn't mean it will feel the same tomarrow, so it is hard to give a definite opinion on how any car feels, but overall I think AC has by far the best simracing physics out right now. Will have to wait a bit longer before anything definite can be said though.

Thanks! As long as PCars does not feel like an Arcade racer, I´m happy with weight transfer problems and stuff. If it has better physics than GT6 I will be pretty happy.

 

[Samus]

I never really understand the concern with which PC sim has 'better' physics. They're all very good, just enjoy them all.

 

[fatkrakr]

Thanks! As long as PCars does not feel like an Arcade racer, I´m happy with weight transfer problems and stuff. If it has better physics than GT6 I will be pretty happy.

Pcars in its present state has better physics than GT6, but that to me isn't really a good judge of how good a game is. IMO it doesn't take much to be better than GT.

 

[notanexpert]

Honestly, I always thought gt6 had relatively good physics... but I've never played any PC sim racers. Soooooo I must be way behind

 

[super_gt]

I don't like some of the physics of the apparently close-to-completed road cars. The Caterham R500 as an example is too tail happy and doesn't have enough rear grip.

 

[Adam41]

Yeah it's worse than that. Even down a straight with a bit of steering lock or an undulation in the road surface the rear steps out.

 

[Imari]

What a great video.

I agree that the R500 is fairly seriously unpleasant to drive in-game. I'm not sure it's inaccurate though, the thing just has far too much power for a little car.

Yeah it's worse than that. Even down a straight with a bit of steering lock or an undulation in the road surface the rear steps out.

I dunno man, he has some pretty big moments over random bumps.

Has it actually been through CPFT? There are some cars that have been Beta2 for at least a year, and yet they're still tweaking the tyres and setups and such. From memory, the Formula cars have been Beta2 pretty much since they started labelling cars as such, yet they've changed dramatically as the tyre model has improved and various bugs worked out.

I'd take their "final physics" thing with a grain of salt. I suspect it means "we could release this if we shipped today", not "we're not making any more changes".

 

[Johnnypenso]

It certainly looks like a handful in real life as well...good find.👍

Honestly, I always thought gt6 had relatively good physics... but I've never played any PC sim racers. Soooooo I must be way behind

The physics in GT are "good enough" to make for a good racing and an enjoyable game. What I really find lacking is feedback to the wheel. When playing older games like GTR2 on my outdated PC there is much more feedback from the wheel making driving more intuitive. Switch back to GT6 and you have to go through this adjustment period where stuff is happening to the car on the screen but nothing happens to the wheel. Losing traction in the rear end for example and often there is nothing in the wheel, you only know it's happening from visual and aural cues. Understeer is usually the same thing, at least on the G27, whereas in other games it takes some more effort to negotiate a corner and when you understeer you clearly feel the wheel go light.

If GT improved it's FFB model it would dramatically improve the game. Even average physics are ok if you can tell what's happening with the car through the wheel.

 

[Wolfe]

A higher-powered Caterham like the R500 is going to skate around on its rear wheels. I'm glad SMS is including the Classic as well, so we can enjoy the purity of a Seven without always having to wrangle with excessive horsepower.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Honestly, I always thought gt6 had relatively good physics... but I've never played any PC sim racers. Soooooo I must be way behind

Try AC, some of the cars in Project CARS, or Game Stock Car Extreme, with a good wheel - you will easily see the difference. They are in another league.

 

[Wolfe]

Or the demo for Live for Speed. Given that it's free and runs great on 10-year-old computers, there's no excuse not to try it.

 

[Whitestar]

It certainly looks like a handful in real life as well...good find.👍

The physics in GT are "good enough" to make for a good racing and an enjoyable game. What I really find lacking is feedback to the wheel. When playing older games like GTR2 on my outdated PC there is much more feedback from the wheel making driving more intuitive. Switch back to GT6 and you have to go through this adjustment period where stuff is happening to the car on the screen but nothing happens to the wheel. Losing traction in the rear end for example and often there is nothing in the wheel, you only know it's happening from visual and aural cues. Understeer is usually the same thing, at least on the G27, whereas in other games it takes some more effort to negotiate a corner and when you understeer you clearly feel the wheel go light.

If GT improved it's FFB model it would dramatically improve the game. Even average physics are ok if you can tell what's happening with the car through the wheel.

Actually, the ffb in GT6 on a T500 is pretty darn good I think. Sadly it seems other wheels have been down-prioritized though.

 

[Sele1981]

Honestly, I always thought gt6 had relatively good physics... but I've never played any PC sim racers. Soooooo I must be way behind

It certainly looks like a handful in real life as well...good find.👍

The physics in GT are "good enough" to make for a good racing and an enjoyable game. What I really find lacking is feedback to the wheel. When playing older games like GTR2 on my outdated PC there is much more feedback from the wheel making driving more intuitive. Switch back to GT6 and you have to go through this adjustment period where stuff is happening to the car on the screen but nothing happens to the wheel. Losing traction in the rear end for example and often there is nothing in the wheel, you only know it's happening from visual and aural cues. Understeer is usually the same thing, at least on the G27, whereas in other games it takes some more effort to negotiate a corner and when you understeer you clearly feel the wheel go light.

If GT improved it's FFB model it would dramatically improve the game. Even average physics are ok if you can tell what's happening with the car through the wheel.

+1

This. The FFB in GT6 sucks so bad (on my Fanatec GT2). I was playing racing games only on consoles for the last 3-4 years. So almost Forza and GT. And now last week I bought Assetto Corsa and gave it a try. Oh my god! My 2-3 year old wheel became alife! After all this years! This great feedback in AC, this great and strong FFB, you feel everything what happens on the screen also on your wheel. Thats the thing that has blown me away most in AC. And I hope we will get this in Pcars too.

Try AC, some of the cars in Project CARS, or Game Stock Car Extreme, with a good wheel - you will easily see the difference. They are in another league.

+1

 

[LogiForce]

Or the demo for Live for Speed. Given that it's free and runs great on 10-year-old computers, there's no excuse not to try it.

Yup, just had a blast in LFS again today. Still a great game to play, which makes it a sad fact that it has a very slow development speed. Last update was Nov 30th 2012.
Makes it double of a disappointment knowing the devs are still working on a new tyre model for it, if I am not mistaking that is.

 

[rauf00]

To get same level of ffb feeling in pCARS (like in Assetto) You need to properly set F1 dev menu in game (masks) and as for now load some ffb tweaks - can be found on wmd forum. Difference is more than noticeably.