Physics thread

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fatkrakr
Pcars in its present state has better physics than GT6, but that to me isn't really a good judge of how good a game is. IMO it doesn't take much to be better than GT.
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Well everything else looks better on pcars as well, so we can judge that it's fantastic, frankly :D
 
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What are the clutch physics like? Is there a difference between plate clutches & dog boxes? Is the bite point adjustable, is it set differently for different cars, or is it just static for all cars? How are SMS going to deal with drivers who miss-shift, are they gonna chuck 'em in neutral like PD, or have they devised a much more fair & elegant solution?
 
VBR
What are the clutch physics like? Is there a difference between plate clutches & dog boxes? Is the bite point adjustable, is it set differently for different cars, or is it just static for all cars? How are SMS going to deal with drivers who miss-shift, are they gonna chuck 'em in neutral like PD, or have they devised a much more fair & elegant solution?
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@LogiForce - What he (I) said! :D
 
VBR
What are the clutch physics like? Is there a difference between plate clutches & dog boxes? Is the bite point adjustable, is it set differently for different cars, or is it just static for all cars? How are SMS going to deal with drivers who miss-shift, are they gonna chuck 'em in neutral like PD, or have they devised a much more fair & elegant solution?
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Let's break this down.

Dog box refers to the gear type used inside the transmission housing. It has nothing to do with the clutch.
However, all clutches and gearboxes are setup on a per car basis. This after the data from the license holders.
So that answers questions 1 and partially 2.
The only way to change the bite point is by changing the 'pedal sensitivity slider' which changes its linearity.
Missed shifts means you'd be grinding gears. Thus the gears are not grabbing and basically they are still running in neutral. So yes, the natural thing is to keep the gear in neutral. Forcing the driver to move back the lever and drop the clutch to try yet again.
That said, there are no 2nd gear non-engagement horrors like in GT5 and 6.

So yeah, all the cars have their individual character. Which was one of the main goals anyway. After all, not a single car is the completely the same even when some share parts with the other.
 
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LogiForce
Dox box refers to the gear type used inside the transmission housing. It has nothing to do with the clutch.
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I thought dog box & dog clutch referred to the same thing, my bad.


LogiForce
Missed shifts means you'd be grinding gears. Thus the gears are not grabbing and basically they are still running in neutral. So yes, the natural thing is to keep the gear in neutral. Forcing the driver to move back the lever and drop the clutch to try yet again.
That said, there are no 2nd gear non-engagement horrors like in GT5 and GT6.
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I think that's a very bad way to deal with miss-shifts, & many others are of the same opinion. If the gear stick has gone into the right position, then the car should be in the corresponding gear, otherwise it just causes frustration. It would be far better if the the software, upon recognising a miss-shift, made some grinding noise & after some time put you into the gear your shifter is already in. That way, the miss-shift is punished with the time it takes for the gear to engage, but the player is not forced to reshift over & over again till they get it right. That is the best compromise imo.


EDIT: Is it possible to flat shift in P Cars?
 
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fatkrakr
They could handle it the same as iracing. The gear will grind until the clutch is reengaged, no need to move shifter.
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That's pretty bad. I never had my shifter lever pop into gear like that in my real car. So it feels like cheating to me instead of simulating.

Why it's double cheating, because each gearbox type has its positive features and negative features. Personally I find automatic transmissions to be pretty bad, as you have less control over your car as your car will always have a clutch engaged even when you don't desire torque being transferred to the wheels.

Also @VBR I said that it's not like GT5 and 6 where you need to reshift over and over again, didn't I? Or are you that incapable of using a manual car as Englishman (very hard to believe)? If you can drive a real car with manual gearbox effortlessly, than you won't have issues now. Unlike in that PD game where I too have issues with 2nd gear.

On your question about flat shifts. If the type of gearbox in the car your driving supports it (i.e. makes it possible by its design), than sure it will be possible to flat-shift... clutchless shift... etc.


Again about shifts from WMD... standard mode is used in all other modes except in the full realism mode I think. So in the end you guys can go either way. ;)

Standard manual mode: Shifting to a new gear before the delay timer runs out has no effect. The car will stay in neutral until the timer expires and then engage the new gear. This will prevent zero-shift times while still giving a good feeling if you shift through the gears at a realistic pace and match revs.
Full realism mode: If the player attempts to shift to a new gear before the timer runs out the gear change is nullified. The car will stay in neutral, make a grinding noise, and the player must go into neutral manually then back into the desired gear. Note that the delay timer for this mode will be in addition to requiring rev matching within the shift tolerance value (see below). The delay would be purely to simulate the time required for synchros and linkages to act within the gearbox and may be quite small depending on the gearbox being simulated. Apply a shift time penalty if an H-pattern car is shifted sequentially (i.e. with a button assigned to Gear Up/Gear Down).
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LogiForce
That's pretty bad. I never had my shifter lever pop into gear like that in my real car. So it feels like cheating to me instead of simulating.

Why it's double cheating, because each gearbox type has its positive features and negative features. Personally I find automatic transmissions to be pretty bad, as you have less control over your car as your car will always have a clutch engaged even when you don't desire torque being transferred to the wheels.

Also @VBR I said that it's not like GT5 and 6 where you need to reshift over and over again, didn't I? Or are you that incapable of using a manual car as Englishman (very hard to believe)? If you can drive a real car with manual gearbox effortlessly, than you won't have issues now. Unlike in that PD game where I too have issues with 2nd gear.

On your question about flat shifts. If the type of gearbox in the car your driving supports it (i.e. makes it possible by its design), than sure it will be possible to flat-shift... clutchless shift... etc.


Again about shifts from WMD... standard mode is used in all other modes except in the full realism mode I think. So in the end you guys can go either way. ;)
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Well we dont have a clutch that is even close to simulating a real clutch so having penalties for it isn't good either.
 
^ I'm waiting for that FFB pedal set, with clutch judder and bite, brake fade and abs pumping, throttle stiction... Hm.. leave out the stiction bit perhaps :)
 
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Come to think of it, an FFB shifter would be awesome too, to counter the gearing issues discussed above. It would only have to be able lock out the gear slots and have grinding vibration. As a bonus it could kick the stick out of gear if you have a damaged or temperamental box. I'd buy one!
 
9 pages later and still no straight forward answer :lol:
1. Is it more realistic than gt6
2. Does it feel arcades compared to Assetto Corsa?
3. Do the most developed cars feel true to life?
Could I get a simple yes/no for each question lol :lol:
 
GranTurismo guy
9 pages later and still no straight forward answer :lol:
1. Is it more realistic than gt6
2. Does it feel arcades compared to Assetto Corsa?
3. Do the most developed cars feel true to life?
Could I get a simple yes/no for each question lol :lol:
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1 is easy but the other two aren't yes or no answers to me (I'm not a member btw)
For 2., both Assetto Corsa and PCars are racing sims so neither should be more arcade than the other because neither is arcade. It might be a better question to ask which is the better sim, but since neither is fully complete and still a work in progress, you can't really answer that until both are finished. One can really only say how they feel at this point in time, and it may be different for different cars as well since they are all in various stages of development.
For 3., it's all relative isn't it? The only real "feel" we get is through the wheel so a better question might be, "are the physics of the real cars accurately modeled in the game, and how well does this translate through FFB from the racing wheel"?
 
Johnnypenso
1 is easy but the other two aren't yes or no answers to me (I'm not a member btw)
For 2., both Assetto Corsa and PCars are racing sims so neither should be more arcade than the other because neither is arcade. It might be a better question to ask which is the better sim, but since neither is fully complete and still a work in progress, you can't really answer that until both are finished. One can really only say how they feel at this point in time, and it may be different for different cars as well since they are all in various stages of development.
For 3., it's all relative isn't it? The only real "feel" we get is through the wheel so a better question might be, "are the physics of the real cars accurately modeled in the game, and how well does this translate through FFB from the racing wheel"?
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Yeah but I don't use a wheel haha
 
Punknoodle
Worried about realistic physics, yet you don't use a wheel? In my opinion proper racing sims can't be played on anything other than a quality wheel, a G25/27 at the very least, and up from there.
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Wheels are expensive you know.
Very expensive :scared:
 
Should be able to pick up a second hand G27 pretty cheap, adds so much immersion. If you have the space too, you can build a rig fairly cheaply that will be just as good as any playseat etc. For instance for my set up I got an old car seat from a wrecked car with rails so it can go back and forth, and bought some cheap steel and MDF, built a frame, bolted on the wheel, done. You just have to get creative.

If you lived near me I'd offer you my used G25, I won't have a need for it soon.
 
LogiForce
Also @VBR I said that it's not like GT5 and 6 where you need to reshift over and over again, didn't I? Or are you that incapable of using a manual car as Englishman (very hard to believe)? If you can drive a real car with manual gearbox effortlessly, than you won't have issues now.
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There's no need to be insulting. I was merely pointing out a better way of handling miss-shifts in a racing sim, that's all.
 
DrJustice
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

Add yes to the last question :)
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Can you explain point 2?

I have AC and the physics are fantastic. But I dont have access to Pcars so I dont know the difference. What does not feel right in Pcars in comparison to AC?

Because what I have realised yesterday is, there are way more simulated aspects in Pcars than in AC. For example in Pcars there is breaking temperature, oil temp, water temp, track temp, air temp, wind direction. None of these are in AC as i know (for now).
 
How does "does it feel arcade in comparison to AC?" -> "No" get you to "What does not feel right in Pcars in comparison to AC?" :odd:

From my POV, weight transfer on road cars does feel a bit better/more natural in AC, but thats about it. Havent played AC since the end of March, though.
 
Sele1981
Can you explain point 2?
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Yes. Both of these sims are at the bleeding edge of consumer racing simulations. The word a****e does not enter into it. Between the current crop of the top sims there are only very minor differences - both of AC and pCARS deliver a detailed simulation driving model. One might get into lengthy discussions about which minute detail is possibly slightly better (or just different) in each in a given build, but both are being polished, so we don't know the precise outcome yet. One thing is certain though; none of them are as good an arcade game as Mario Kart... ;-)
 
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Punknoodle
Worried about realistic physics, yet you don't use a wheel? In my opinion proper racing sims can't be played on anything other than a quality wheel, a G25/27 at the very least, and up from there.
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How the car responds to input is a separate concern from how you made the input happen.
 
Wolfe
How the car responds to input is a separate concern from how you made the input happen.
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I don't know about you but when I drive my car I don't use the throttle at either full throttle or nothing. When I brake I don't use full braking or nothing. When I steer I don't use full lock or nothing. And while I appreciate that analogue inputs are available to use on controllers, the range of motion is a lot smaller and hence less "resolution" than a pedal or a wheel so those inputs aren't mimicking real life.

So actually, it does matter.

Besides, the point still remains, why would you care about accurate physics when controlling the car with a controller? The car may be responding as it should, but you feel completely detached from it so you can't experience it anyway; you are just watching it.
 
^ I seem to remember my PS3 hand controller's pressure sensitive buttons allowing throttle and brakes to be modulated reasonably. The resolution isn't so bad precisely because they're pressure sensitive, not positional (the brakes in a real car are also mainly pressure sensitive).

In any case I don't think using a controller with pressure sensitive buttons and analogue sticks invalidates having a feel for interaction with the driving model. I agree that it matters to some degree, and that wheels, pedals and FFB is the way to go, but not so much that you're not "allowed" to care about physics.

Edit: As an anecdote, the first "real sim" that I drove was Need for Speed on the 3DO. It was the first widely available racing game with proper physics, and the physics made all the difference despite using a hand controller with buttons. Even with non pressure sensitive buttons, the controls can be modulated using PWM (modulating the controls by tapping buttons with varying duty cycle). When the technique is learnt you can have surprisingly good control.
 
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