Physics thread

[GranTurismo guy]

Of course - me too

And no pressure sensitivity on PS4? Well, that sucks.

Ikr, and I never noticed it!!

 

[Punknoodle]

In all fairness, you could use the analogue triggers for acceleration and braking, but then if you want to change gear yourself you have to use the shape buttons instead of the top triggers as you will need to remove your finger from the trigger to hit the top trigger. I just find it awkward, but I never use the controller so I guess if you are used to it, it would be OK, but still not as precise as a wheel.

Because you use for feet for pedal work, and your hands for steering, it's just less multi tasking for your hands, and is more natural so things just happen, as it's like it would be in real life.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Are the triggers sensitive?

 

[Punknoodle]

The bottom ones are analog, but work with distance travelled as opposed to pressure

 

[Imari]

(I actually have a ps4 and didn't notice this)

That's exactly why they did it. You could count the number of games that it actually mattered on your fingers, and even then most people didn't make use of the feature.

 

[Wolfe]

...why would you care about accurate physics when controlling the car with a controller? The car may be responding as it should, but you feel completely detached from it so you can't experience it anyway; you are just watching it.

Controller or wheel, in the end they're both just devices that send digital signals to a box that pumps out a flat window of little colorful squares. You're always "watching" in that respect.

For me, compared to running, jumping, shooting, etc., it's no extra leap of the imagination to associate joystick wiggles and button presses with the actions of driving a car. Provided you have analog inputs, driving a car with a controller is actually more straightforward than most of the things you do in other types of games.

Precision is a nice thing to have, and so is force feedback (unless the effects are poorly implemented). I use my G25 for PC games. But I can also be lazy and use my Logitech Rumblepad 2. It doesn't change the physics of the game, nor my preference for accurate handling...it's just a different way to play.

 

[Sele1981]

I don't know about you but when I drive my car I don't use the throttle at either full throttle or nothing. When I brake I don't use full braking or nothing. When I steer I don't use full lock or nothing. And while I appreciate that analogue inputs are available to use on controllers, the range of motion is a lot smaller and hence less "resolution" than a pedal or a wheel so those inputs aren't mimicking real life.

So actually, it does matter.

Besides, the point still remains, why would you care about accurate physics when controlling the car with a controller? The car may be responding as it should, but you feel completely detached from it so you can't experience it anyway; you are just watching it.

There are some adaptions for the PS3/4 controller wich makes the sticks a bit longer. So you should have a bit more sensitive control. The image shows these but there must be also some longer ones I think. I heared they are good for racing games and shooters. But never tried out.

http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00IYNHYLS/

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

How the cars react to input, gamepad or wheel, may be the same but the feel of driving them there is no comparison. For a short time I was without a wheel, playing pCARS, AC, LFS, Forza 5, but as soon as I got my new wheel all of these came to life! With a gamepad I was missing SO much feel of the road, the bumps, fighting the wheel/car over curbs or off track, the limits if traction, etc. The goods ones (AC, GSCE, pCARS, R3E/DTM) provide so much detailed feedback that a gamepad just cannot replicate. I'm not saying racing with a gamepad can't be fun, just a different experience.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

In all fairness, you could use the analogue triggers for acceleration and braking, but then if you want to change gear yourself you have to use the shape buttons instead of the top triggers as you will need to remove your finger from the trigger to hit the top trigger. I just find it awkward, but I never use the controller so I guess if you are used to it, it would be OK, but still not as precise as a wheel.

Because you use for feet for pedal work, and your hands for steering, it's just less multi tasking for your hands, and is more natural so things just happen, as it's like it would be in real life.

Gt is the only game that uses x for accelerate, everything else r2

 

[Sele1981]

Once you play with a wheel there is no turning back. In GT when I play on split screen 2 player against a friend who never plays racing games, I mostly lose against him when we both use a pad. It feels totaly absurd with a pad when u are used to a wheel.

 

[Punknoodle]

Once you play with a wheel there is no turning back. In GT when I play on split screen 2 player against a friend who never plays racing games, I mostly lose against him when we both use a pad. It feels totaly absurd with a pad when u are used to a wheel.

I'm the same.

 

[Wolfe]

To @Sele1981's comment, I would reply that once you play a simulator with truly great physics and FFB, there's no turning back. For me, on a wheel, anything short of excellence can be distracting. Sometimes, playing with a controller allows me to abstract the experience enough to tolerate physics flaws or avoid wonky FFB.

If there are no faults to shatter the sense of immersion, and it's a PC game (I have no setup for the TV and no incentive to construct one), sure, I'll take advantage of the precision and feedback of a wheel. But I don't need to in order to appreciate realistic physics.

I have no comment on what PCARS is like with (or without) a wheel, obviously, but I'm also not expecting to use one because I'll have the Wii U version, and I have no reservations about that.

 

[HKS racer]

So we passed the middle of Q2 2014. There should be some improvements going on. Since I don't have the game what I care the most physics wise is how car react over kerbs/bumps and how car react to oversteer. 2 things I can see from videos (sort of).

So can you post recent videos of the best cars in the game, where I can see suspension working or can you reccomend youtube channels with updated videos? (Please no 6 months old videos, I want to see most recent improvements),
thanks.

 

[Cyber_stig_77]

How the car responds to input is a separate concern from how you made the input happen.

This is true however your input through a wheel is a two way street , you have FFB which gives YOU input as well but a controller is more like a one way street with inputs only going into the controller and not coming out and don't even bother trying to say vibration is an output from the controller because the vibration function isn't related to physics.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

This is true however your input through a wheel is a two way street , you have FFB which gives YOU input as well but a controller is more like a one way street with inputs only going into the controller and not coming out and don't even bother trying to say vibration is an output from the controller because the vibration function isn't related to physics.

Well said, that's what I was tying to say. We are missing some of the physics without feeling output from the input.

 

[Wolfe]

Everything that "physically" happens within the game is output from the physics -- suspension travel, G-forces on the cockpit camera, yaw and roll, tire noises, subtle mid-corner changes in RPM, etc. -- and to the trained eye/ear it's all valuable feedback. I don't need FFB to tell me the front tires have gone wide, or that I'm rolling over a bumpy surface, or that I've clipped a curb, or that available traction has changed from one surface to another. Anything that involves or affects handling plays out visually, and I'm very visual-oriented. I used a spring-loaded wheel in my early days of PC sims, 10-15 years ago.

There's no denying that a wheel is a helpful asset for simulators, and FFB is direct; nothing on a controller will forcibly alter your actual, physical input. But if the amounts of feedback, precision, and immersion provided by a controller are OK for somebody, why should they be called out for it, as happened to @GranTurismo guy? I don't understand what's so confounding about someone who enjoys realistic physics on a controller. The software makes or breaks the experience; it is the experience. A wheel is just a peripheral.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

It's all about choice. I think the wheel users are just trying to explain that the feedback a good sim provides is better appreciated with a wheel (some things just can't be felt with a gamepad). The software can make or break the experience, and without good software a controller (wheel or gamepad) is not going to save it. But, when we venture into "sim" territory these games work hard to provide feedback that an non-sim doesn't even attempt. Driving Ridge Racer with a wheel will not improve the experience much, if at all. AC and GSC are two that stand out today, if a wheel is not used there is so much missed. It's relative, no use in comparing one game using a wheel to another using a gamepad - the experience is not the same making it hard to compare.
Again, it's not that a sim can't be fun with a gamepad, its a different experience. Turn off all sound when playing game - missing this feedback is a huge lose to the experience.

Gran Turismo Guy should have asked, how does pCARS with a gamepad compare to GT6 using a gamepad.

 

[Wolfe]

It wasn't the best choice of words for GranTurismo guy to ask how PCARS "feels", but physics are objective. Things are right or wrong, better or worse, regardless of how you play. Do the cars in PCARS behave closer to reality than GT6, overall? Do they exhibit unrealistic qualities compared to AC? Do the most developed cars act very similarly to their real world counterparts? Those are the sort of questions I believe he was trying to ask.

For a thread like this, we need to avoid the word "feel".

 

[Spitty]

A force feedback wheel is a great way to experience a sim, it can be a lot of fun, but that doesn't mean it's realistic.
Closer to realism than a controller for sure, because you can't get understeer from too much entry angle on a pad.
There is a feature where the new gamepad succeeds, it's the rumble triggers, they give you feedback when your brakes are about to lock up or when you apply too much throttle at corner exit. I wish the G27 pedals would have that.
I'm curious how pcars will handle on Xb1,
there was more emphasis on showcasing the PS4 so far, which got me worried a little.

 

[Ameer67]

A force feedback wheel is a great way to experience a sim, it can be a lot of fun, but that doesn't mean it's realistic.
Closer to realism than a controller for sure, because you can't get understeer from too much entry angle on a pad.
There is a feature where the new gamepad succeeds, it's the rumble triggers, they give you feedback when your brakes are about to lock up or when you apply too much throttle at corner exit. I wish the G27 pedals would have that.
I'm curious how pcars will handle on Xb1,
there was more emphasis on showcasing the PS4 so far, which got me worried a little.

Physics-wise they should be the same. Grahpics/performance, dunno.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

It wasn't the best choice of words for GranTurismo guy to ask how PCARS "feels", but physics are objective. Things are right or wrong, better or worse, regardless of how you play. Do the cars in PCARS behave closer to reality than GT6, overall? Do they exhibit unrealistic qualities compared to usAC? Do the most developed cars act very similarly to their real world counterparts? Those are the sort of questions I believe he was trying to ask.

For a thread like this, we need to avoid the word "feel".

I was asking how the physics feel, so I do mean feel. As a controller user FFB is meaningless. I wouldn't say "feel" is a term limited to certain items, and when I say it I mean the physics

 

[Cyber_stig_77]

Everything that "physically" happens within the game is output from the physics -- suspension travel, G-forces on the cockpit camera, yaw and roll, tire noises, subtle mid-corner changes in RPM, etc. -- and to the trained eye/ear it's all valuable feedback. I don't need FFB to tell me the front tires have gone wide, or that I'm rolling over a bumpy surface, or that I've clipped a curb, or that available traction has changed from one surface to another. Anything that involves or affects handling plays out visually, and I'm very visual-oriented. I used a spring-loaded wheel in my early days of PC sims, 10-15 years ago.

I guess you have proved the advantage of a wheel here without realizing it a FFB wheel will tell you most of these things as they are happening especially with understeer and when spin, you can feel the car start to understeer before it actually does allowing you to prevent the understeer. This gives you a much more realistic feel and control than a control pad ever will

 

[LogiForce]

I guess you have proved to advantage of a wheel here without realizing it a FFB wheel will tell you most of these things as they are happening especially with understeer and when spin, you can feel the car start to understeer before it actually dose allowing you to prevent the understeer. This gives you a much more realistic feel and control than a control pad ever will

Especially since it's scientifically proven that your brain processes the data from your nerves faster than the data from your eyes.

The only issue is that you'll get screwed over if the data your nerves receive is wrong compared to the Physics happening, making your brain respond in the wrong manner. So if the FFB is programmed with flaws than it's better to just rely on images alone. Cause even if the response is slower, it can actually be faster than faulty FFB... if the projected image is accurate according to the Physics happening as well, of course.

 

[Wolfe]

@Cyber_stig_77 -- There's no contest between a wheel and controller. I've had a FFB wheel for almost a decade, I know what it's for. You just don't need a wheel to appreciate realistic physics.

I was asking how the physics feel, so I do mean feel. As a controller user FFB is meaningless. I wouldn't say "feel" is a term limited to certain items, and when I say it I mean the physics

I'm tempted to use the word myself sometimes, but it inevitably leads to others talking about the feeling they get behind the wheel, rather than what's actually happening on screen.

 

[Myles Prower]

The 80's GT cars got a big tyre and physics update Friday

 

[biffdiver]

I was asking how the physics feel, so I do mean feel. As a controller user FFB is meaningless. I wouldn't say "feel" is a term limited to certain items, and when I say it I mean the physics

Obvoiusly, Gran Turismo Guy can "feel" different physics using a controller. I race not only with a FFB wheel, but it's mounted to a custom sim rig with a Buttkicker Sim Kit (btw Spitty wanted to know how to get feedback in pedals, Buttkicker on a sim rig is how to get it in pedals and seat). This being said, I CAN "feel" a difference between games like GTA and GT with a controller. There is a steering precision needed, and having to ease onto the throttle and brakes. It feels different. I personally much prefer the input from my rig and FFB wheel, but I know people who are unbelievable with gamepads.

Gran, I'd like to address your physics question. I do not have access to the Pre-Alpha testing, but like you I've been very interested in info on the physics. I found a post on another site from someone who has been driving Project CARS for 2 years now and posted his own Project CARS alpha impressions. I will not paste a link here, as I am not trying to advertise another site, just trying to answer a question. I'll just paste a quote from it.

"The car control and handling is dependent on the stage of development the car is in I have found out. Cars that are longer in the game already, handle better, have a more finished physics setup it seems. With no assists and just pure SIM turned on, played on my G27 I have to say... it's different to GT6, which gives you slightly more "info" from the force feedback, it's a bit more "rough" - but in a way I'd imagine how it feels to race such cars. You can feel the edge of "loss of control" approaching and act accordingly. Whereas in older builds it was just "SNAP - grip gone" it's way more progressive now. The suspension of each and every car is modelled to accuracy and performs as you would expect in real life, you can go into a long sweeper and feel your car sink into its suspension and use the simulated weight transfer to get the right angle and throttle to make that perfect exit. Running over different surfaces gives you lots of info through your force feedback and very often you can "ride the edge" nicely. If it's better physics than in Gran Turismo? I'm not sure, it's different. More frightening in its whole experience I'd say. But by NO MEANS this is shift or another need for speed title (on FULL SIM setting that is) and gives racing enthusiasts LOTS to be happy about. "

I hope this helps somewhat answer your question. My understanding is that the physics are currently a huge focus for the build team, and recently has really made huge and constant improvements. The positive I take from this is that in a Pre-Alpha stage, the news seems to be very good. They seem to be close, and it can only improve from here.

B.I.F.F.

 

[skazz]

If you try recent builds then it's clear that pCARS is entering the polish phase. The very ambitious tyre model is starting to reach a level where you can drive it with confidence, tracks and cars are starting to approach the quality level you'd expect from a top quality 2014 simulator. The graphics are also getting more tuned, so I'm seeing better visual quality for my PC capabilities as time goes by.

It feels like they are nicely on track to me. I look forward to enjoying pCARS in the coming months.

 

[TheMinority]

If you try recent builds then it's clear that pCARS is entering the polish phase. The very ambitious tyre model is starting to reach a level where you can drive it with confidence, tracks and cars are starting to approach the quality level you'd expect from a top quality 2014 simulator. The graphics are also getting more tuned, so I'm seeing better visual quality for my PC capabilities as time goes by.

It feels like they are nicely on track to me. I look forward to enjoying pCARS in the coming months.

Polishing stage? Dont they still have a lot of content to put in though?

 

[Imari]

Polishing stage? Dont they still have a lot of content to put in though?

I wouldn't say a lot. There's a little bit more to go in the base game, and a lot more that is planned to be developed post-release.

I agree with @skazz. They've been working on the polish of some bits of content for some time, but they're really starting to nail stuff down now. The best cars are a pleasure to drive.

 

[biffdiver]

Physics update - Rene Rast is using his access to Project CARS to prepare for his first 24 Hours at Le Mans in a couple weeks. He posted a youtube clip of him practicing along with comments

“Yesterday my fastest laptime in real life was 3.40.170 and one day later I tried the same car in Project Cars and did a 3.40.110. For me this is the best preparation for the 24h race as the car feels almost like the real Lmp2.”



I'd say the physics & track detail are at a very good point for a pro to use them for practice.