PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[TheDabbinDave]

The analogy is heavilly flawed. If you get a new car vs used the used generally show signs of wear and tear... Regarding games your play disc may have some scratches and maybe you miss a manual but you are essentially getting a new car! You can also much more easily pirate a game and get an equal experience as a new car. It´s kind of hard to pirate a Ferrari or even a mere mini cooper and do it right without spending a lot of money in the process, time and you will unlikely get as good of a result

Thus there is a push to online to try and give paying customers more value and give more reasons to buy new instead of used. Future is probably with digital distribution as the average guy gets an internet connection primarily for this reason.

If games would be cheaper to buy more would maybe not bother with the used market so maybe this loose on the hardware and make up for the game won´t work in the future. It didn´t work out to well for this generation and nothing say it will be easier the next.

We bought a $30,000 1996 Nissan Maxima in 2000 for $9000, still own it. Bought a 2000 Toyota Solara in 2003, still own it., son drive it. My daughter will drive the Maxima when she is of age. Piracy is irrelevant to my analogy. Your debunking my analogy doesn't hold water.

I bought several used copes of GT5p for friends to introduce them to GT on PS3. Much better to pay less than 10 bucks than $40.

You mentioned Ferrari. Ferrari does require their cars to be serviced by them. So, Ferraro does benefit from whomever owns one of their cars.

 

[oqvist]

We bought a $30,000 1996 Nissan Maxima in 2000 for $9000, still own it. Bought a 2000 Toyota Solara in 2003, still own it. Piracy is irrelevant to me. Your debunking my analogy doesn't hold water.

I bought several used copes of GT5p for friends to introduce them to GT on PS3. Much better to pay less than 10 bucks than $40.

You mentioned Ferrari. Ferrari does require their cars to be serviced by them. So, Ferraro does benefit from whomever owns one of their cars.

Of course it hold water. Say you could pick a car for free. Would you pick a brand new Maxima or a used one of the same model? Just about anybody would pick the new one. New cars cost a lot of money yet people still buy them.

As for games you get the same product no matter if you pay 10 or 40$. Of course you as consumer get the one for 10$ it´s a non brainer. I would personally by used cars to save cash but that is totally irrelevant to this example

 

[TheDabbinDave]

Of course it hold water. Say you could pick a car. Would you pick a brand new Maxima or a used one of the same model? Just about anybody would pick the new one. New cars cost a lot of money yet people still buy them.

As for games you get the same product no matter if you pay 10 or 40$. Of course you as consumer get the one for 10$ it´s a non brainer. I would personally by used cars to save cash but that is totally irrelevant to this example

NO. I can't afford a $40,000 NEW car. So I don't buy them. Same goes for games. The last new game I bought was NTG2011 and Shift 2. I really wish I got them used.

Your bucket is empty again.

The Maxima had the window sticker in the glove box. It was a $30,000 loadedSE. 4 years later, 9 grand.

 

[Samus]

You're missing his point. When you buy a used car, it's used, it has some wear and tear. When you buy a game the package might be used but the thing you use, the software, is bit for bit identical to a new copy.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

You're missing his point. When you buy a used car, it's used, it has some wear and tear. When you buy a game the package might be used but the thing you use, the software, is bit for bit identical to a new copy.

Doesn't matter Simon. My used cars are still in operation.

What's the used price of a 2012 458? Vs a 2010 Ford Focus?

 

[Samus]

Doesn't matter Simon. My used cars are still in operation.

I don't see what that has to do with his point.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

I don't see what that has to do with his point.

Simon, a used car is not like buying a steak bone that was eaten off of. Real simple. My used cars are still in use.

What's the used price of a 2012 458 Vs a 2007 Ford Focus?

New COD (used) vs MotorStorm 1 (used)?

You're a smart guy, you can figure this out.

I suggest you watch Barrett-Jackson this week. Used cars can actually INCREASE in value in the "real" market where purchasers dictate the value of a product.

 

[chromatic9]

Car analogy doesn't work dts. Better off with a better analogy.

There's so much wear and tear on wheel bearings, suspension joints, engine/gearbox, seats/upholstery, hard to get rid of smells. Risk of poor maintenance, dodgy repairs.

Even a book is bad really. You have the owners smell, house smell, sweaty prints and corn snacks on it.

I buy a used game and can clean the disc easily. How can I wash a book? All the games I bought off ebay were mint condition such is the quality of the discs.

I do agree in principle that you have the right to sell stuff. Could be a 6month old HDTV, ornaments that are easily cleaned, no wear. Barley used tools. Mr snap-on can't do a thing.

At the same time, data on a disc is exactly the same more than anything else I can think of right now and wanted by many more than some ornament.

What is sad is often we have used games on ebay selling for more or the same price as some online retailers. They miss out on a warranty and risk using some random person. It's like they only know how to use ebay.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

My simple point is, other products are sold used everyday for whatever reason at whatever quality. The manufacturers do not get paid twice, three times, etc.

If I made bird houses, it would be insane for me to expect a customer to pay me if they sell or give my birdhouse to someone else.

 

[chromatic9]

My simple point is, other products are sold used everyday for whatever reason at whatever quality. The manufacturers do not get paid twice, three times, etc.

If I made bird houses, it would be insane for me to expect a customer to pay me if they sell or give my birdhouse to someone else.

I agree in principle. Cars are one of the worst analogies though and depreciate like hell mostly.

You may not have a choice for long anyway since it may go digital for US/EU. Seems kind of pointless.

Can you imagine if in the future the TV you bought was assigned to your person or home and you couldn't sell it or buy a second hand TV.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

You may not have a choice for long anyway since it may go digital for US/EU. Seems kind of pointless.

Can you imagine if in the future the TV you bought was assigned to your person or home and you couldn't sell it or buy a second hand TV.

I know . I very much fear abuses by "the powers that be".

 

[oqvist]

My simple point is, other products are sold used everyday for whatever reason at whatever quality. The manufacturers do not get paid twice, three times, etc.

If I made bird houses, it would be insane for me to expect a customer to pay me if they sell or give my birdhouse to someone else.

Yes I see that point. But I was just commenting on why your analogue was flawed. As SimonK and Chromatic maybe explained better.

We are used to be allowed to do that but it´s probably a thing in the past due to the digital distribution that is available.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

The reduction in the number of activated PS3's from 5 to 2 is a real kick in the nads. We had 3 PS3's under our roof at one time until my son flew the coup. Now we have 2, one is dead with YLOD. My plan was to get that one fixed. Today I found out that a White 500gb Super Slim bundle is coming out next week for $300. I'd really like to get the new one and get my fat one fixed. SONY imposing the DLC sharing reduction has me hesitating to buy a new PS3. I could always just use the fat one for light duty usage, such as the wife's TV. The SS would be much more energy efficient and have the latest chipset.

Anyway

And then we'll probably have the PS4 in a year or so. Hopefully they'll build this one to last.

 

[Eks]

As I think Tesla said on the first page, I really hope PS4 comes first. That way, devs will be better at optimizing for the PS4 since there is no Xbox "720" to learn to optimizae code for yet.

I can't tell you how many multi-plats I bought for the 360 over the PS3, simply because in just about all cases, the 360 version is better/more optimized for that console.

 

[oqvist]

What is the DLC sharing reduction? You can only install the DLC on a set number of consoles or can you run them simultaneously?

Will be interesting to see. I expect both the new xbox and PS to be shown at E3. I don´t know if I will buy any of them though. Would much rather invest in my PC but curious what they can come up with.

 

[Samus]

As I think Tesla said on the first page, I really hope PS4 comes first. That way, devs will be better at optimizing for the PS4 since there is no Xbox "720" to learn to optimizae code for yet.

I can't tell you how many multi-plats I bought for the 360 over the PS3, simply because in just about all cases, the 360 version is better/more optimized for that console.

That was nothing to do with which came first, it was because the 360 is very similar to a PC in terms of architecture and a lot easier to program for in comparison to the CELL in PS3 which devs said was a pain to work with.

If the PS4 doesn't use CELL as expected then you should see better optimisation.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That was nothing to do with which came first, it was because the 360 is very similar to a PC in terms of architecture and a lot easier to program for in comparison to the CELL in PS3 which devs said was a pain to work with.

If the PS4 doesn't use CELL as expected then you should see better optimisation.

The reason is more due to ram of PS3 and also its GPU, rather than Cell being reason if comparing like for like between the two consoles.

 

[Samus]

The reason is more due to ram of PS3 and also its GPU, rather than Cell being reason if comparing like for like between the two consoles.

I've never seen a dev complain about the PS3 RAM or GPU in comparison to the 360, it's always about how hard the CELL is to program for.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I've never seen a dev complain about the PS3 RAM or GPU in comparison to the 360, it's always about how hard the CELL is to program for.

The Cell is a strong point for PS3. It is reason why 1st parties can make games look good on it and run well. Memory and GPU bring it down compared to 360. 360 has unified shaders for GPU and memory is shared as a whole on 360 unlike PS3. This is the main reason why 3rd party games run better on 360 generally. Only way to make them run as good on PS3 would be from using Cell to make up for weakness of other parts of system, like using it for GPU side of things and that is harder for developers on 3rd parties to make use off at first and multithreading. If PS3 had same memory and GPU as 360, I am sure 3rd party games would perform virtually identical or better on PS3 as Cell CPU is not bringing the performance down but making it better, especially in last few years. It is harder to program for but it is not reason for less performance as developers will have programmed for it.

 

[Tornado]

If the PS3 had the same RAM and GPU as the 360, developers would still need to work around the complexities in the CELL engine that aren't there in the Xenon.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

If the PS3 had the same RAM and GPU as the 360, developers would still need to work around the complexities in the CELL engine that aren't there in the Xenon.

They would but they would get there in the end. They are not saying it is impossible to program for or slowing performance down but it being hard which is key difference. Only will really affect them is first attempts on architecture but performance wise, should be same once they get it running like they want. The main reason for performance difference is GPU and Ram for 3rd parties which is key point being discussed.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

What is the DLC sharing reduction? You can only install the DLC on a set number of consoles or can you run them simultaneously?

Will be interesting to see. I expect both the new xbox and PS to be shown at E3. I don´t know if I will buy any of them though. Would much rather invest in my PC but curious what they can come up with.

We used to be able to have PSN purchases on 5 activated PS3's. Now it's only 2. That means any current DLC or PSN games I have bought, my son cannot use on his PS3.

 

[Ddrizle]

More rumored specs....

New Xbox
- AMD x86 Jaguar 1.6GHZ 8-Core [Targeting one core being dedicated for OS tasks]
- AMD 8000 series GPU
- ESRAM on the GPU (unknown amount)
- 8GB Ram DDR3, [1.5GB of RAM likely reserved for the operating system]

New Playstation
- AMD x86 3.2GHz APU Solution (Jaguar/Steamroller), 4 cores (2 core pairs)
- Maybe AMD 8000 series GPU solution [Customised Solution Possibly utilising GPU + APU combo]
- 2-4GB GDDR5

Sony to drop DualShock for the next PlayStation

 

[Samus]

There are so many rumours, most of them conflicting I'm really not paying attention to any of them. There must have been at least 10 different specs 'leaked', probably none of them are genuine.

 

[Luminis]

They would but they would get there in the end. They are not saying it is impossible to program for or slowing performance down but it being hard which is key difference. Only will really affect them is first attempts on architecture but performance wise, should be same once they get it running like they want. The main reason for performance difference is GPU and Ram for 3rd parties which is key point being discussed.

Meh, the CELL is kinda like beta tapes back in the day. It's that alternative attempt at multi core CPUs that never caught on. That's why it was bound to be an issue for third party developers, with or without other limitations.

The fact that everyone's got proper multicore CPUs in use today instead of a single core + SPU solution isn't going to make loads of polishing for that very specific application very attractive to anyone who's working mostly with "regular" multicore CPUs.

The key point here is that just isn't as economical to polish a game's code to get the best out of the PS3. That's basically all there is to it and all there's ever been. It's just not worth the investment of time (and thus, money) for lots of third parties, it seems. That's my take on it, at least.

There are so many rumours, most of them conflicting I'm really not paying attention to any of them. There must have been at least 10 different specs 'leaked', probably none of them are genuine.

Very true. Didn't we go from, like, twin-AMD 7xxx to AMD 8xxx card already?

 

[Samus]

I've seen so many different numbers and configurations for RAM it's laughable.

 

[Eks]

I don't support any "leaked" specs, but Microsoft wouldn't use a CPU that's 1/3 the speed of their biggest rival. For god sakes, my dad's 2003 Dell is twice as fast.

@SimonK
Yep, what was 1gb has now evolved into 4gb, and here we are at 8gb. :/

 

[Luminis]

I don't support any "leaked" specs, but Microsoft wouldn't use a CPU that's 1/3 the speed of their biggest rival. For god sakes, my dad's 2003 Dell is twice as fast.

I doubt your dad's 2003 Dell's an octo-core, though Still seems strange for sure, though.

 

[Earth]

Sony to drop DualShock for the next PlayStation

This controller rumor is interesting as gamespot reported it as well, here

I just dont see how knowing how hot someone is or what their heartbeat is will help gameplay.

Im OK with a LCD screen on the controller, so as long its not the size of an iPad. Its a chore to hold the Wii U controller.

As for Ram, as long as the PS4 has 4GBs it will be fine. The very best PC games today run fine on 4GBs of ram, and thats with Windows 7 taking 1.5GB of that.

 

[Luminis]

As for Ram, as long as the PS4 has 4GBs it will be fine. The very best PC games today run fine on 4GBs of ram

That's why you need more, in my opinion. In eight years, everyone will be laughing their butt off at 4GB of RAM. Would be the same thing as with current consoles, if you're asking me. Also, RAM ís dirt cheap these days. Just slap 12GB onto it and call it a day.