Political Correctness

[KSaiyu]

When I was a kid my mother had a bumper sticker that read... The moral majority is neither lol. Perhaps you think as I do and declare democracy a failing proposition.

Not sure if failing is the right word but it has more potential for abuse than ever before.

Again, I refer to that ending scene in MGS2:

Raiden: I'll decide for myself what to believe and what to pass on!
Colonel: But is that even your own idea?
Rose: Or something Snake told you?
Raiden: Ahh
Colonel: That's the proof of your incompetence, right there.
You lack the qualifications to exercise free will.
Raiden: That's not true! I have the right --
Rose: Does something like a "self" exist inside of you?
Colonel: That which you call "self" serves as nothing more than a mask to cover your own being.
Rose: In this era of ready-made 'truths',
"self" is just something used to preserve those positive emotions that you occasionally feel...
Colonel: ...Another possibility is that "self" is a concept you conveniently borrowed under the logic
that it would endow you with some sense of strength...
Raiden: That's crap!
Colonel: Is it? Would you prefer that someone else tell you? Alright then. Explain it to him.
Rose: Jack, you're simply the best! And you got there all by yourself!
Raiden: Rrrr...
Colonel: Oh, what happened? Do you feel lost? Why not try a bit of soul-searching?
Rose: Don't think you'll find anything, though...
Colonel: Ironic that although "self" is something that you yourself fashioned,
every time something goes wrong, you turn around and place the blame on something else.
Rose: It's not my fault. It's not your fault.
Colonel: In denial, you simply resort to looking for another,
more convenient "truth" in order to make yourself feel better.
Rose: ...leaving behind in an instant the so-called "truth" you once embraced.
Colonel: Should someone like that be able to decide what is "truth"?
Rose: Should someone like you even have the right to decide?
Colonel: You've done nothing but abuse your freedom.
Rose: You don't deserve to be free!
Colonel: We're not the ones smothering the world. You are.
Rose: The individual is supposed to be weak. But far from powerless --
-- a single person has the potential to ruin the world.
Colonel: And the age of digitized communication has given even more power to the individual.
Too much power for an immature species.

Then remember the story of Tahera Ahmad, the lady "refused" an unopened coke "because she was Muslim". The actual truth eventually came out, but anyone who didn't do the research would have gone along, and continues to go along with the convenient half truth (in this case absolute zero truth) of her assertion that "#IslamophobiaISREAL"

 

[squadops]

The potential for abuse lies in the fact that people believe a sound rule needs to be changed, the world and our circumstances do not change all that much to warrant beliefs such as "the constitution is a living and breathing document". Utter tripe imo, is killing unacceptable one day yet acceptable the next?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

Ok sure, someone pointed out in the god awful god thread that that one bit is a lie but still. We need to look at the principles and nothing else(they do not change to me).

 

[InSight]

It must be very hard living under constant oppression. Poor you.

I'm not opressed, lol. I'm talking about @squadops and his attempt to promote himself as a domestic terrorist and racist, if he ever wanders into a black or PC neighbourhood with that flag.

The change in these two weeks has been incredible. If you still don't see who has the absolute power to change and influence just about everything through mainstream media and corporations, I cannot help you there. Even Alibaba now banned the flag. This means a world-wide flag ban in a week!

The last time we saw and read about destroying cultural and historic monuments was with the talibans and ISIS. Why is the US government acting like that? Next thing you know, they'll be banning certain books and movies, Gone with the wind, seriously?? They now have the power to do it.

Liberals now enact confederate flag with nazi swastika, but THEY are the ones acting like nazis in the 30s, and you see how opponents are branded as traitors and racists through media? That's exactly how it went down. And people wonder how Germans didn't see it coming...

 

[squadops]

Nanny state it is, and they have all sorts of fancy toys and words to persuade you.

I have yet to wrap my head around what is so liberating about being a liberal.

 

[KSaiyu]

Nanny state it is, and they have all sorts of fancy toys and words to persuade you.

I have yet to wrap my head around what is so liberating about being a liberal.

There isn't, hence where the concept of self comes in. It's why the "liberal" parties of Britain are in such disarray.

They need a revolution, but no-one has independent thought any more.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Inhabitants of different cultural backgrounds in multicultural nations will always take offence at something. You start on a dangerous path when you start blanket banning and universally condemning.

And then let's think about the logic of this.

Angry white dude hates black people. Flies flag of the south.

"I know a great idea" say the social justice movement. "Let's **** off all the angry white dudes who hate black people and stop them flying the flag of the south. With time they will see the error of their ways and the anger and racism will disappear. Oh and if you don't associate the flag with slavery tough luck on you too bub, I guess you'll have to be angry too!"

Did you ever stop and think that maybe there is more to it than trying to upset as many people as possible? That maybe people need a symbol to show what they believe in - that they reject the violence and the partisanship and want to see the community rise above it to become something more?

You're cynical of peoples' beliefs and motives, but cynicism makes for poor armour because the ability to see the worst in everyone is not a virtue - and there is always something worse than even the most hardened cynic can conceive, like Dylann Roof. People might believe in an ideal, but that doesn't make them naïve. It doesn't make them stupid. At the very worst, it might set them up for disappointment - but given the choice between seeing the best in people and risking disappointment or seeing the worst in them and being proven right, most people would choose the former. Only the truly miserable among us would choose the latter.

(Ad hominems, where have I seen that before....)

Accusing people of launching ad hominem attacks because you're not getting your way is by definition an ad hominem attack. It's pretty obvious that you're doing it to marginalise the contributions of anyone who disagrees with you; after all, you have been categorically shot down in just about every last conversation that you have been involved in. Now the best that you have to offer is taking quotes from a video game out of context.

 

[squadops]

I've been waiting for that word to pop up KSaiyu. Even the most of the most libs from your country understood it.



"You say you have a real solution, well you know, we'd all love to hear the plan" winner

 

[KSaiyu]

...Which ties back to an earlier post, that had this comment from the Guardian's comment section

PC idiots, especially interns, have destroyed liberalism. I've worked hard for the cause, even nationally, but since I'm a plainspoken old union liberal (and not a troll) I've been banned from such diverse places as Democratic Underground and Bill Moyers, for life, with NO explanation or appeal (very Kafkaesque) for simply using terms they don't like. These idiots do NOT understand Context, for one thing. They would have banned Lenny Bruce. Morons.


For instance, when I worked day labor in the South, I was often the Only white guy working with a gang of blacks (since most young Southern whites couldn't keep up). They call another black guy who spent his whole check on payday on drugs, booze, and women while his family went hungry, a "******." This was obviously not a racist term, but PC idiots who have never actually worked with blacks, would faint. It all depend on context. Another time I was going to cash my check, riding with a Huge black guy - as big as a football player - and suggested we go in a barred store called "The Little Brown Jug" He replied, "No way. There's bad ****** in there." Context, stupid - college morons can't fathom it.

Liberalism has been hijacked, and dissent is not tolerated. I especially like the "Kafkaesque" line:

Comes from the author Franz Kafka, and refers to the style with which he wrote his books (which in his dying wish asked for to be burned).

Basically it describes a nightmarish situation which most people can somehow relate to, although strongly surreal. With an ethereal, "evil", omnipotent power floating just beyond the senses.
You go to the city to see the law. Upon arrival outside the building, there is a guard who says "You may not pass without permission", you notice that the door is open, but it closed enough for you to not see anything (the law).

You point out that you can easily go into the building, and the guard agrees. Rather than be disagreeable, however, you decide to wait until you have permission.

You wait for many years, and when you're an old, shriveled wreck, you get yourself to ask:

"During all the years I've waited here, no-one else has tried to pass in to see the law, why is this?",
and the guard answers:

"It is true that no-one else has passed here, that is because this door was always meant solely for you, but now, it is closed forever".

He then procceeds to close the door and calmly walk away.

This is in fact, one of his short stories, and is very typical to his style, i.e. kafkaesque

 

[squadops]

I believe your last statement but I have to say...

My kid came home not to many months ago with a full blood dachshund(now keep in mind of course I own dogs such as rotts and airdales and pit bulls lol) so of course I'm like wtf is this and what can I do with it? Well it took a shine to me and I actually like the little tike but, what is funny, she told me his name was lenny or lenard and I immediately started calling him "Brrrrruce!"

Ah, the kids don't understand my humor at all

👍

 

[Liquid]

'Liberalism has been highjacked'

Not that I even understand what your point is but you are aware that the definition of liberalism has changed throughout history anyway? From its origins in Gladstonian classical Liberalism to the Asquith and Lloyd-Georgian social Liberalism.

Actual liberalism is closer to libertarianism and the modern cliche of liberalism is closer to socialism. Your particular dosage of liberalism depends on whether you prefer liberty or equality* As the venerable source itself says;

Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism

*To be taken with a pinch of salt in that equality is allegedly equal opportunity, not equal result

But of course, this wouldn't be the only time words and definitions are changed or corrupted naturally over time, or morphed to suit a political agenda.

If even what you are saying is true, it certainly isn't shocking; some people don't like it when people don't agree with them? Jesus, hold the front page.

 

[squadops]

Contemporary is a word I hear floating around. Where I live there are many "liberals", they are socialists who think their way is the right way and as long as you fart tofu you must be a free mind. It's boggling.

 

[KSaiyu]

I think this sums it up well, in calling for a "restoration" not a revolution:

In this legally medicated society, the fundamentals of ethics have become obscured. History has taught us (some of us anyway) how in a vacuous ethical epoch, a significant amount power becomes concentrated in the administrative class; government agencies, administrators, ‘law enforcement,’ third sector quangos, corporate charities, and private government contractors. Collectively, they are ”the man in the middle.” The more oppressive public life becomes, the more the man in the middle thrives. Even the political classes fear the man in the middle, who now form the largest voting bloc in the United States. The crowd fears the man in the middle because at any given moment in time, the administrative machine can ruin their life – with threats, tickets, fines, detention, restricted access, or social exclusion – the list is virtually endless.

What the political and administrative classes struggle to understand is that when the ethical meltdown goes radioactive, then things begin to mutate, and at this point anything is possible.


As much as in any other point in history, we’ve never been in more dire need for a in statu quo res erant ante bellum. The German writer Franz Kafka once remarked, “Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy.” Maybe what’s needed is not so much a revolution, but a restoration. So a restoration… of less government, less administration, less laws, in a society underpinned by common law, and based on common sense. Administrators and politicians won’t like it. It’s risky, sometimes messy and it guarantees nothing, but compare this to the present ‘in statu quo sins warranty’ (state of affairs during the war) which is already halfway down a dark Kafkaesque tunnel.

 

[squadops]

Get a load of this law, it's just one of many and anyone who does not realize what a joke it is to have 1000 pages dictating how you might pay for a service is a mad man.

http://housedocs.house.gov/energycommerce/ppacacon.pdf

 

[Liquid]

@KSaiyu You seem to conflate several topics in one.

Do you want to talk about centralised, big government?
Do you want to talk about black helicopters and the new world order?
Do you want to talk about changes and appropriations in political philosophies?
Do you want to talk about neurobiology?
Do you want to talk about anthropology?
Do you want to talk about art (video games) as social mirrors?
Do you want to talk about hypocrisy amongst internet culture?
Do you want to talk about multiculturalism and migration?
Do you want to talk about the history of the indigenous ethnic groups in Britain?

You're not using them as analogies and metaphors in your posts. It comes across as once one topic comes up, you vacate it and bring something else to the table. Why? To put people on the spot? This makes it difficult, for me at least, to engage with your posts.

Which ones are you currently addressing?

 

[squadops]

I believe he want's to speak about individuality and freedom to live as you see fit while not disturbing another's same right. I could be wrong however

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You seem to conflate several topics in one.

Just be careful - that's a long, deep rabbit hole that you're about to plunge down.

 

[Luminis]

"I know a great idea" say the social justice movement. "Let's **** off all the angry white dudes who hate black people and stop them flying the flag of the south. With time they will see the error of their ways and the anger and racism will disappear. Oh and if you don't associate the flag with slavery tough luck on you too bub, I guess you'll have to be angry too!"

Don't you think that it's not solely about actually changing people but also about expressing a certain sympathy for the victims?

Then remember the story of Tahera Ahmad, the lady "refused" an unopened coke "because she was Muslim". The actual truth eventually came out, but anyone who didn't do the research would have gone along, and continues to go along with the convenient half truth (in this case absolute zero truth) of her assertion that "#IslamophobiaISREAL"

While I wouldn't put it past someone like her to make up a story (or blow it out of proportion) to further her agenda, isn't it a bit macabre to compare a that story to the debate at hand? I mean, a fight over a can of soda that might or might not have happened compared to killing numerous people due to racism?

Utter tripe imo, is killing unacceptable one day yet acceptable the next?

Society might not change on a day to day basis, but it probably did change over the course of the last 250 years, didn't it?

Liberals now enact confederate flag with nazi swastika, but THEY are the ones acting like nazis in the 30s, and you see how opponents are branded as traitors and racists through media? That's exactly how it went down. And people wonder how Germans didn't see it coming...

I... I don't even

You do realise that the Nazi party paved its way to power with actual, politicly motivated murder and was an anti democratic movement from the get-go, right?

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu You seem to conflate several topics in one.

Do you want to talk about centralised, big government?
Do you want to talk about black helicopters and the new world order?
Do you want to talk about changes and appropriations in political philosophies?
Do you want to talk about neurobiology?
Do you want to talk about anthropology?
Do you want to talk about art (video games) as social mirrors?
Do you want to talk about hypocrisy amongst internet culture?
Do you want to talk about multiculturalism and migration?
Do you want to talk about the history of the indigenous ethnic groups in Britain?

You're not using them as analogies and metaphors in your posts. It comes across as once one topic comes up, you vacate it and bring something else to the table. Why? To put people on the spot? This makes it difficult, for me at least, to engage with your posts.

It shouldn't be difficult. These are all different topics, but a theme usually unites them.

Political correctness is a machine and therefore can be broken. It doesn't know what to do with me because the labels would run out and in some cases be contradictory. For example, I'm an "Islamophobe", yet would be thought of as an Islamist/anti Zionist in another thread. I'm a conservative, but have only voted for the conservative party once in my life (highest is Liberal Democrats). I'm a racist/bigot despite giving more time and money for the betterment of other races than probably most of my detractors here. I'm a man of science, yet don't know what's up there (interestingly this was my medical school entrance question list: I chose the Darwin one, but it's pretty cool to see what the first one was. I know which one I would pick now!)

Much the same happens when I try to unite different topics under the banner of PC.

Which ones are you currently addressing?

The need for massive change. Oh and Kojima is a genius

(Released 2001)

(Upcoming game, trailer released 2014. People spent weeks trying to decipher it as a release date for MGS5)

 

[squadops]

Society might not change on a day to day basis, but it probably did change over the course of the last 250 years, didn't it?

Indeed it does change, however what I said was a sound law, not a frivolous one.

 

[KSaiyu]

Don't you think that it's not solely about actually changing people but also about expressing a certain sympathy for the victims?

Everyone is a victim at some stage of their life. In this case the actual victims are long dead. Please note this isn't to say African Americans don't have a right to feel antipathy to the flag.

While I wouldn't put it past someone like her to make up a story (or blow it out of proportion) to further her agenda, isn't it a bit macabre to compare a that story to the debate at hand? I mean, a fight over a can of soda that might or might not have happened compared to killing numerous people due to racism?

No it's not. Using emotion to shut down rational points is what's got us in this mess.

 

[DK]

I'm not opressed, lol. I'm talking about @squadops and his attempt to promote himself as a domestic terrorist and racist, if he ever wanders into a black or PC neighbourhood with that flag.

The change in these two weeks has been incredible. If you still don't see who has the absolute power to change and influence just about everything through mainstream media and corporations, I cannot help you there. Even Alibaba now banned the flag. This means a world-wide flag ban in a week!

The last time we saw and read about destroying cultural and historic monuments was with the talibans and ISIS. Why is the US government acting like that? Next thing you know, they'll be banning certain books and movies, Gone with the wind, seriously?? They now have the power to do it.

Liberals now enact confederate flag with nazi swastika, but THEY are the ones acting like nazis in the 30s, and you see how opponents are branded as traitors and racists through media? That's exactly how it went down. And people wonder how Germans didn't see it coming...

Christ on a bike...the US government hasn't banned the Confederate flag. It was retailers refusing to sell it any more. I can't feel sorry for a bunch of racist pissbabies crying about "MUH FREEDUMS AND MUH HERITAGE, DAT NEGRO IN DE WHITE HOUSE STOLE MUH FREEDUMS AND MUH HERITAGE!"

 

[squadops]

So you basically just have an adversity to muricans I guess..

 

[KSaiyu]

To be honest I'm just waiting to hear the true blue libertarians of GTPs view on all this. I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of "we told you so", not that they're ones to gloat

 

[prisonermonkeys]

(Upcoming game, trailer released 2014. People spent weeks trying to decipher it as a release date for MGS5)

You do realise that you have fundamentally misinterpreted the philosophy of the series, right?

 

[Encyclopedia]

I don't know. Try asking the people of Malmö how it feels. Oh wait, you can't ask them for their opinion.

I can't? Why not?

Still waiting for an answer.

I'm not opressed, lol. I'm talking about @squadops and his attempt to promote himself as a domestic terrorist and racist, if he ever wanders into a black or PC neighbourhood with that flag.

The change in these two weeks has been incredible. If you still don't see who has the absolute power to change and influence just about everything through mainstream media and corporations, I cannot help you there. Even Alibaba now banned the flag. This means a world-wide flag ban in a week!

The last time we saw and read about destroying cultural and historic monuments was with the talibans and ISIS. Why is the US government acting like that? Next thing you know, they'll be banning certain books and movies, Gone with the wind, seriously?? They now have the power to do it.

Liberals now enact confederate flag with nazi swastika, but THEY are the ones acting like nazis in the 30s, and you see how opponents are branded as traitors and racists through media? That's exactly how it went down. And people wonder how Germans didn't see it coming...

Is it actually flat out banned though? Or is it simply removed from public buildings?

Edit: I see by DK's post it's not actually banned. So what's the deal then? Shop owners have the right to choose what to sell. It's got nothing to do with censorship.

Funny how it's usually like this when someone cries censorship.

 

[Luminis]

Everyone is a victim at some stage of their life.

Victim to what, though. Makes a huge difference, if you're asking me.

In this case the actual victims are long dead. Please note this isn't to say African Americans don't have a right to feel antipathy to the flag.

The victims of the most recent shooting, those are dead, yes. Their friends and families, though? And from what I can tell, the controversy around the discrimination of blacks hasn't been limited to that single shooting. The US is a long way off and even over here one gets to notice that there have been issues regarding that for a while.

No it's not. Using emotion to shut down rational points is what's got us in this mess.

Depends on what you consider to be "this mess". Are you referring to political correctness itself or are we still talking about the confederate flag controversy?

Indeed it does change, however what I said was a sound law, not a frivolous one.

Yeah, but even the interpretation of that changed already, didn't it? Like "all men" initially didn't include blacks because they weren't considered human.

(Upcoming game, trailer released 2014. People spent weeks trying to decipher it as a release date for MGS5)

Metal Gear's story is a huge can of worms in and off itself, especially with all the retconning and continuously expanding story beyond what was initially planned out. I'd love to discuss the franchise's story and the overarching themes and philosophies in detail, but let me just say that there's more to it than "the government is bad m'kay?"

MUH HERITAGE!"

Regarding the whole heritage thing: I might need to explain why I think such a flag matters so little that it should be taken down as a sign of respect towards an ethnic group.

I, personally, believe that it is our actions that define us; what makes us is who we are and not where we come from. Not our heritage. A person can have the nicest heritage in the world and still be an arse and vice versa. Thus, flying a flag to show one's heritage isn't a very important thing to me.

 

[Liquid]

My appreciation for MGS is known on this forum; my username, signature and past avatars. There is a case to be made for art (video games) functioning as social mirrors reflecting society but I really don't think MGS falls into discussion about political correctness. As Luminis points out, the story is incredibly convoluted and contradictory at the best of times.

This is supposedly a discussion about word appropriation and pandering to minorities, not about how AIs in space impersonate a Colonel and send a virtual reality trained soldier to stop a nuclear strike before a massive swerve at the end, and how that related to Tumblr Wumblrism.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

My appreciation for MGS is known on this forum; my username, signature and past avatars. There is a case to be made for art (video games) functioning as social mirrors reflecting society but I really don't think MGS falls into discussion about political correctness. As Luminis points out, the story is incredibly convoluted and contradictory at the best of times.

This is supposedly a discussion about word appropriation and pandering to minorities, not about how AIs in space impersonate a Colonel and send a virtual reality trained soldier to stop a nuclear strike before a massive swerve at the end, and how that related to Tumblr Wumblrism.

I'm personally fascinated by the idea of video games as an art form - to the point where I teach a unit on the way digital worlds represent our own. I'm genuinely trying to find a way to work Sons of Liberty into my lessons because of its ideas, but I think it might be beyond my students. In terms of its thematic concerns, it has nothing to do with political correctness - it's about individual choice in an evolving socio-political landscape and whether those choices have the same meaning for us as circumstances change. It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with whether we actually can take control of our own destinies.

 

[KSaiyu]

Still waiting for an answer.

Can I please have statistics of violent crime and rape by ethnicity in Malmö please? Your country has made it easier to prosecute individuals who criticise immigrants among other groups.

As such, I'm afraid I'll still be waiting for an answer for a very long time.

Victim to what, though. Makes a huge difference, if you're asking me.

Victims of slavery.

As for the MGS relevance to political correctness, I'll post a longer post later on but I'm not sure how much clearer it needs to be for you guys. From the E3 2015 trailer:

"America is a country of 'liberty'. A meeting of immigrants. Instead of simply assimilating its citizens simply live alongside others. So the Major sought a system that used information, words to control the subconscious. In his eyes the greatest symbiotic parasite the world's ever known isn't microbial - it's linguistic. Words are what keep civilisation, our world alive. Free the world not by taking men's lives but by taking their tongues."

I agree, he's retconned a lot but think back to even the original Metal Gear. You are manipulated through misinformation. It's all mind control, removing freedom of thought and hence freedom of choice. MGS2 itself was an exercise of this in real life (think the Raiden reveal)!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Again, it has nothing to do with political correctness.