Political Correctness

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LeMansAid
In short - while @prisonermonkeys and @KSaiyu seem to want to save the world from each other, I'd like to save the world from both of them.
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So why is this discussion different? I don't get what you're trying to do here. It seems like a giant ad hom against both of them, so I'm almost certainly missing the point.

If you want to save the world from both of them, point out why what they say is wrong.
 
prisonermonkeys
You're not saving anybody from anything; you're just telling yourself that you are to justify your actions.
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What actions?

Imari
So why is this discussion different? I don't get what you're trying to do here. It seems like a giant ad hom against both of them, so I'm almost certainly missing the point.

If you want to save the world from both of them, point out why what they say is wrong.
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The discussion (for me at least) started with the addressing of @KSaiyu.....

prisonermonkeys
It's your attitude that breeds extremism.
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Which to me is an attitude that itself breeds extremism. Using @prisonermonkeys' own rationale they encourage in each other what they object to in each other, polarising themselves further. The further out to those extremes each goes, the more distant even vaguely counter views will appear.

Each an alarmist in their own right, and each doing more harm than good. My opinion of course.

Edit - Now have read in another thread what appears to be Ksaiyu's paranoia spiraling out of control. I think at some point the knock downs and stompings need to give way to sadness, and maybe even compassion. At a certain point we otherwise betray our liberal selves.
 
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LeMansAid
Which to me is an attitude that itself breeds extremism.
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Maybe, although maybe it's just calling a spade a spade. Given that we're now in the political correctness thread, I think there's a lot to be said for not mincing words.

Given that KSaiyu was radicalised well before prisonermonkeys ever started in on him, I'm not so sure. Prisonermonkeys hasn't been the only one to try to point out the flaws in KSaiyu's stance, just one of the most aggressive. With or without PM, KSaiyu was going to come up against the sort of resistance that would only further justify his own point of view, as we've seen in other threads.

While it obviously hasn't worked, I think there's something to be said for pointing out to someone "this is what you're doing". Even if that includes "I'm doing it too by pointing this out to you, but I hope that you can learn something from this". Sometimes hypocrisy is a valid method of getting the message across, just like Socratic questioning is.

Now have read in another thread what appears to be Ksaiyu's paranoia spiraling out of control. I think at some point the knock downs and stompings need to give way to sadness, and maybe even compassion.
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Hey, we can all feel sorry for the guy. It's kind of sad the way it's turned out, and it's an unfortunate set of circumstances that have led him to be how he is now. He's going to have a tough life watching over his shoulder for all the Muslims that are coming to get him.

But honestly, I don't feel that sorry for someone who can label people as traitors to the west for being kind. The rest of the world has to deal with KSaiyu as he is now, and that includes not putting up with his 🤬.

I can understand if some drug dealing gang banger has a rough upbringing that leads them to use violence to attempt to solve problems, but I do not and will not condone how they behave.

Likewise, I can understand how KSaiyu may have gotten to where he is, and that it's kind of a sad place to be, but I will not condone his calls for action against the Muslim world, any more than I'll condone the guy who suggested dropping nukes on Mecca.

I think it's totally possible to feel sorry for the guy for being a bit mental, and still not accept or support any of his actions. If he ever feels like giving up his crusade against everyone who isn't him, then maybe we can talk.
 
1241Penguin
I certainly won't condone such a joke on the basis that it's flat out crap, but... come on.

The day that SJWs rise is the day society will begin to regress. Whatever happened to the days of George Carlin.
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You're a day late and a dollar short on the latter. The coup is over and most of us didn't even realize it had begun. Someone just got fined tens of thousands of dollars for calling someone names and hurting their feelings. It was mean and cruel and vicious and not funny but it could easily have been dealt with by outing him on social media. To make it illegal and incur a fine is a travesty. The heart of much comedy is insult, parody and satire, plenty of which involves making fun of someone's mistakes, attitude, appearance etc. Won't be the last you can bet on that.

I'll throw this one in:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/scho...year-old-makes-racist-comment-about-brownies/

An elementary school in Collingswood, New Jersey called the police after a nine-year-old children made a “racist” comment about brownies during an end-of-the-year party. On June 16, a third-grader made a comment about the brownies that had been given to the class as a snack. That comment prompted another third-grader to claim that the first comment was racist. The staff at William P. Tatem Elementary School determined that this rose to the level of a police matter and called the local fuzz.
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Wow, you would think Comedy would be the last area left where you could say something so horrible, so disgusting, so offensive...and it'd be fine because it's a joke. Comedians themselves will always explain why they never tell jokes outside a show, & that's because there's a proper context for stand up comedy. Some of the funniest jokes are also the most vulgar because they're things people will never hear out in the street and they usually have a strong element of truth behind them (see jokes by Louis CK for example).

But, those people who end up getting offended also end up being people who can not cope with the subject being joked on whether it's race, sex, illness, crime, etc. Or, in the case of social media these days, don't know the build up to the joke. If a comedian made a joke about rape, it's going to look bad in plain terms. But, if people actually listen to the joke and understand why build up is a crucial bit to making a joke funny, that awful sounding punch line about rape might actually end up being funny once you understand the full scenario leading up to that joke.

One of the terrific things about comedy is that a subject like this will get torn to shreds by the right artists. In a form of art that's supposed to make you laugh, comedians have perfected their deliveries so well that many can present such strong arguments and then hit you with a laugh at the end. It's a great form of entertainment to call out hypocrisy as long as you don't go on a tirade or forget to make people actually laugh. Carlin used to be amazing at these jokes and loved using offensive language to deliver them.
 
TRGTspecialist
Apparently a false story.
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Maybe, but I doubt it. Snope's "research" does not include a name of anyone at the school in question that they supposedly talked to and they did not hear from the police department who didn't return their call. "Yeah we talked to a guy at the school and he said it's all bs", is hardly what I'd call stellar investigative journalism.
We contacted Collingswood Public Schools to find out whether it was true police were called over "racist brownies" in an elementary school classroom, and the representative with whom we spoke stated (without elaboration) that the rumor was completely "false." We also attempted to contact the Collingswood Police Department about the issue but have so far been unsuccessful in obtaining a response from anyone there.
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The original article from the Inquirer however, does include a name, that of Police Chief Kevin Carey who says that will show up for call that include "name calling", so responding to the incident in question would not be out of the question.
The increased police involvement follows a May 25 meeting among the Collingswood Police Department, school officials, and representatives from the Camden County Prosecutor's Office, where school officials and police both said they were told to report to police any incidents that could be considered criminal, including what Police Chief Kevin Carey called anything "as minor as a simple name-calling incident that the school would typically handle internally.
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TRGTspecialist
Apparently a false story.
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I just don't know. There are only 14,000 inhabitants and the schools only have 1800 students between them. If an incident happened which needed a little positive correction (and kids do say the oddest things) then everybody must know each other well enough for this to not be a police matter.

That said, we see every day how the citizens of the US like to dress themselves up as the Army and act like military specialists rather than just upholders of the law. It wouldn't surprise me to find that they bump up their callout figures by adding all school incidents to the roster. A force that needs a tail of twenty marked cars to stop a suspect (like a chase I saw on the television the other day) does not have an efficient model or a sensible idea of its place in the scheme of things.


EDIT: There's more to this case than meets the eye; here's a statment from the school and local Board of Education on the actions recently taken by the Camden prosecutor. Certain legal strictures have been placed on the school/BoE and, effectively, they are not allowed to handle any issue themselves.

I'd say that this is at the root of the story. Either the incident didn't actually happen but is being spoken about as if it did in order to highlight that insane document or it did and it was handled according to the new legal framework. Which is still insane.
 
TenEightyOne
I just don't know. There are only 14,000 inhabitants and the schools only have 1800 students between them. If an incident happened which needed a little positive correction (and kids do say the oddest things) then everybody must know each other well enough for this to not be a police matter.

That said, we see every day how the citizens of the US like to dress themselves up as the Army and act like military specialists rather than just upholders of the law. It wouldn't surprise me to find that they bump up their callout figures by adding all school incidents to the roster. A force that needs a tail of twenty marked cars to stop a suspect (like a chase I saw on the television the other day) does not have an efficient model or a sensible idea of its place in the scheme of things.


EDIT: There's more to this case than meets the eye; here's a statment from the school and local Board of Education on the actions recently taken by the Camden prosecutor. Certain legal strictures have been placed on the school/BoE and, effectively, they are not allowed to handle any issue themselves.

I'd say that this is at the root of the story. Either the incident didn't actually happen but is being spoken about as if it did in order to highlight that insane document or it did and it was handled according to the new legal framework. Which is still insane.
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Yes, let's blame the police for this policy change because they might be trying to bump up their call numbers when the very link you provided states:
The Collingswood Police Department (PD) recently had a meeting with school officials and members of the Camden County Prosecutor’s Office (CCPO), during which time we were advised to alter the way we handle juvenile matters within our public schools. The PD was explicitly instructed by the CCPO to respond to all incidents in schools that could be criminal and investigate the same. We asked for clarification on the term “criminal” and were advised that we should err on the side of caution and investigate all matters that could be seen as criminal by anyone involved. This could be as minor as a simple name calling incident that the school would typically handle internally, to a full blown major investigation. Furthermore, the PD and school were both advised that we should be contacting the New Jersey Division of Child Protection and Permanency (DCP&P) on just about every incident at the school.
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Prosecutors office means the decision likely came from the political higher ups and I think I'd be pretty safe in guessing it's a heavily Democrat voting area and most of the local and state representatives are Democrats. The policy stinks of left wing, political correctness run amok.
 
Johnnypenso
Yes, let's blame the police for this policy change because they might be trying to bump up their call numbers when the very link you provided states:
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Ultimately responsibility sits with the Department of Justice if it came from the prosecutor. That seems obvious. Note that the PD are the ones who wrote to the parents (as I linked for you) explaining the new "protocol".

Johnnypenso
The policy stinks of left wing, political correctness run amok.
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No, police intervention in every matter of in-school discipline to the specific exclusion of school staff stinks of a right-wing Big Brother, you may be confusing differing ideologies. The policy wasn't created in reaction to this incident (if it happened) but rather the incident could have credibly occurred as a result of the policy's creation.

Read it again, perhaps?
 
I consider political correctness one of the greatest threats to our societies nowadays. You see intellectuals that are on the conservative/ right side of the political spectrum, emphasize the right to free speech all the time, and with very good reason.

If things go on like this, i fear a world where freedom of expression is accepted only when you express the popular opinion on everything political/ society wise. It certainly will not contribute to broadening our mental horizons, when everyone is brainwashed into having the same opinion. A bit like:

prisonermonkeys
So liberalism is really just another word for totalitarianism or tyranny, then?
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For once I agree with one of your posts :dopey:
 
TenEightyOne
Ultimately responsibility sits with the Department of Justice if it came from the prosecutor. That seems obvious. Note that the PD are the ones who wrote to the parents (as I linked for you) explaining the new "protocol".

No, police intervention in every matter of in-school discipline to the specific exclusion of school staff stinks of a right-wing Big Brother, you may be confusing differing ideologies. The policy wasn't created in reaction to this incident (if it happened) but rather the incident could have credibly occurred as a result of the policy's creation.

Read it again, perhaps?
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This appears to be local policy unless you have some evidence that it's been implemented statewide. As suspected, the area is heavily Democrat. Registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans 3:1. They voted 70% for Obama both times and 63.6% for Kerry. They are part of the First Congressional District of New Jersey, represented by 3 Democrats. The 5th Legislative District of New Jersey is represented by 3 Democrats. The current U.S. Attorney for the District of New Jersey is Ralph J. Marra, appointed and sworn in by Barack H. Obama. The only Republican in sight is Chris Christie so unless the order came directly from him, it likely came from a Democrat at some level.
 
Johnnypenso
This appears to be local policy unless you have some evidence that it's been implemented statewide. As suspected, the area is heavily Democrat. Registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans 3:1. They voted 70% for Obama both times and 63.6% for Kerry. They are part of the First Congressional District of New Jersey, represented by 3 Democrats. The 5th Legislative District of New Jersey is represented by 3 Democrats. The current U.S. Attorney for the District of New Jersey is Ralph J. Marra, appointed and sworn in by Barack H. Obama. The only Republican in sight is Chris Christie so unless the order came directly from him, it likely came from a Democrat at some level.
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You seem to think I have some kind of agenda - all I'm pointing out is that the Justice Department's prosecutor and the PD are the ones implementing this policy despite you seeming to think that it has nothing to do with them. Why are you so interested about where it's from? I couldn't give a hoot about which of the right-wing parties implemented it; it's Big Brother control.

That's why I was astonished to read that you think;

Johnnypenso
The policy stinks of left wing, political correctness run amok.
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Perhaps you could explain how absolute police control of classroom incidents is in any way left-wing? I'd hate to see what you'd think would constitute right-wing thinking.
 
stonesfan129
I do not agree with making people think and act a certain way so that it does not upset others.
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Exactly my point, using police force in junior classrooms (and deliberately excluding school staff from taking care of "incidents") is just force-gone-mad.
 
TenEightyOne
Do you think it should be? I certainly don't, I struggle to get my head around that policy.
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No. They have more important things to do like arrest people committing actual crimes. When I was in high school, we had a police liaison officer. But he never removed students from class. If you got out of control, our assistant principal who used to be a Marine would come get you and you would get suspended.
 
justin credible
My view is Political Correctness means basically Don't be an ass to people show some respect to each other and treat them well.
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That's common courtesy and consideration, not political correctness. The two are often at odds these days. For example, your friend shows up to school with a new hairstyle and some new boots. Common courtesy and consideration would lead me compliment her on her fabulous new hair and boots. Anyone I've ever known likes to have their choices validated and a compliment is a good way to do it. Makes them feel good and me too. To me that's perfectly normal behaviour and anyone I've ever complimented was quite happy about it as far as I know. On the University of North Carolina campus however, that's a sexist microaggression and supposedly you're telling someone, “I notice how you look and dress more than I value your intellectual contributions. How you look is really important.” Apparently, in the PC world, you can't possibly value someone intellectually while at the same time admire their sense of fashion. In the PC world we are all one dimensional beings, capable of only a single train of thought.
 
FrzGT
Wait? Police in school?

What in the world has gone into.
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Sadly, it's quite common in American schools to have a police presence in the building. Because I grew up in outer suburbs, we only had one officer on site during the day. Some inner-city schools however, will have airport style security with metal detectors and bag searches along with multiple officers on site.
 

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