mister dog
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That's from residing in Spain
Political Correctness
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- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
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- Johnnypenso
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TRGT is implying that the caricature is intentionally designed to be racist.
You are pointing out a plot hole.
Two different arguments.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
We're not talking about a fairy tale... by definition that's a story. We're talking about the image of Zwarte Piet, a matter of historical record. In images. Of black people.
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- Johnnypenso
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I think the important thing to think about is, who are the intended audience of such a fairy tale? And do they (at that tender age) actually believe it's a fairy tale?
If the intended audience believe in said fairy tale, how do they perceive the characters? Do the characters in question instill some kind of fear of any kind?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but let's for a second imagine that they did. Would that affect said audiences perception by association of the characters skin colour?
If the intended audience believe in said fairy tale, how do they perceive the characters? Do the characters in question instill some kind of fear of any kind?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but let's for a second imagine that they did. Would that affect said audiences perception by association of the characters skin colour?
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mister dog
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I grew up with it, kids see zwartepiet as a funny/ scary helper. Funny as he's mostly doing silly stuff or cracking jokes and scary when you are waiting anxiously for Sinterklaas to pay a visit to your classroom, and suddenly he bangs on the door loudly and throws candies inside. Legend also says that the really bad kids end up in his potato bag.
Kids believe into the story up until they are about 6, and often behave good during the year as they think Sinterklaas is watching (holy man and all).
My father actually plays Sinterklaas in the local schools each year. Luckily in Belgium zwartepiet is still a genuine zwartepiet, as we haven't succumb to political correctness just yet when it comes to a children's feast.
You know that Santa Claus is actually a copycat of this tradition?
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Six? SIX? Blimey, that's early
Klaus (or Claus) isn't holy here, quite the opposite. We also keep a version of the legend but it's one of his elves (tiny white chaps) who bring potatoes/coals depending on whether one's been naughty or nice.
And that "genuine" Zwarte Piet is what?
mister dog
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Elves??? Maybe midgets should start protesting now as it's degrading and offensive! Ban the elves!
The one that's black. Zwart means black in Dutch.
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EDIT: Strike that, I was thinking of panto dwarves. And beer.
And what do you mean by "black"? A white guy as a sweep or a black guy? And my Dutch is okay, thanks, I live on the East Coast
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....Liv Tyler? She made one fine Elf, if I say so myself. And that guy who was in The Matrix. He was good too.
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I knew I should have put that in a spoilerWHAT!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR KIDDING RIGHT?
Don't forget:
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I don't know what a spoiler is good sir.
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Santa is real, I was only joking!
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Just out of morbid curiosity, I searched for "zwarte piet golliwog" ("golliwog" being a character who felt out of favour in Britain in the 70s/80s as its name became a racial slur towards black people), I can't really see much difference between the two - they both have wiry black hair, exaggerated red lips and a similar clothing style.
mister dog
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DLR_Mysterion
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I loved the marmalade with the golliwog on it....
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Absolutely nothing, I'm sure. The ugly stereotypes such as Gollie, Wollie and ******, for example... no harm in that. What about the Ten Little ******s? What could possibly be seen as racist about the tradition such stories reveal about that lovable children's toy?
I think you're just yanking the chain now
And yes, he's been hung.
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Hanging a black doll doesn't make the doll racist, nor is the image inherently racist. Putting it on the cover of a book doesn't make it automatically racist either. It all depends on the context doesn't it?Absolutely nothing, I'm sure. The ugly stereotypes such as Gollie, Wollie and ******, for example... no harm in that. What about the Ten Little ******s? What could possibly be seen as racist about the tradition such stories reveal about that lovable children's toy?
I think you're just yanking the chain now
View attachment 571202
And yes, he's been hung.
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- TenEightyOne
You don't find the black stereotype racist as an image? I struggle to believe that. How about the language?
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- Johnnypenso
I don't see racism everywhere I look, sorry. If you're referring to the doll itself, no. The image is what, 80 years old or at least based on a book many decades old? Any stuffed doll from 80 years ago is going to look similar is it not, just in different colours? Is this what little white girls with red hair look like?:
I know very little about the book, not a fan of Agatha Christie and have no interest in looking it up, so it may be a racist manifesto for all I know. In that case, the image is being used in a racist context and becomes racist. If, on the other hand, the theme of the book was the callous disregard for the lives of poor southern blacks for example, then the image comes with no racist intent at all. Context.
It's politically correct to simply assume that every image that could be racist, is racist. Context is the key.
mister dog
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By that definition every figure that is black is racist. I just see a black doll with a black afro like hairdo, big eyes and red lips (how else will you define the mouth if the whole head of the doll is totally black?).
A doll portraying a black person yes, but that doesn't make it racist just like @Johnnypenso explains.
A doll portraying a black person yes, but that doesn't make it racist just like @Johnnypenso explains.
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He wasn't.
Unless it's crossed wires this just looks like a strawman, as far as I can see this whole discussion about Zwarte Piet and golliwogs has been about the portrayed image of those characters in their contexts. The only person who has brought up "inherent racism" - and tried to remove context by saying things like 'are these not similar dolls just in different colours' - is you.
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I think that people too often confuse what is in poor taste and what is racist, sexist, etc.
UFC fighter Mark Hunt a few days ago called recent opponent Brock Lesnar a ":censored:ing white piece of 🤬". To me that's neither racist, or in poor taste. If however there was a context where the colour of Lesnar's skin had been particularly scrutinised, and had caused him grief around the time, and Hunt knew that, the comment might have been in poor taste, but still not racist. It's a truthful descriptor, and people when they're angry often grab whatever aspect occurs to them in the moment, when unloading on someone. Be it tall, short, fat, skinny, pretty-boy, ugly, black, white - it's often a "throwaway" addition that the person would ordinarily make no issue of, have no issue with, and harbour no biases regarding people because of.
I know people that have had friends and family hang themselves, and I adore the game Limbo. Seeing that there's a hanging scene in Limbo it would be in very poor taste if I were to extemporaneously expose any of those people to that particular scene. I'm sure that the imagery could be near to, or as painful as, the associations that some have in relation to golliwogs. The answer to the issue of people having emotional scars can't be banishing everything that may cause offence or hurt, and it can't even be banishing the things clearly more likely to cause offence or hurt. For a black person with no golliwog associated trauma, but a sister dead from a hanging suicide, having no golliwogs in the house but flippantly whipping out Limbo is going to be in extremely poor taste, potentially very hurtful, and something not automatically averted by completely ridding ourselves of typically offensive phenomena.
Probably the best we can do is be actually invested in the individuals we interact with, and try to best understand and know them so as to give ourselves a sporting chance of not needlessly hammering away on a figurative painful wound. Sweepingly telling the masses what they are/should be offended and hurt by is rather insincere and self-interested, and quite possibly a good description of what political correctness truly is.
UFC fighter Mark Hunt a few days ago called recent opponent Brock Lesnar a ":censored:ing white piece of 🤬". To me that's neither racist, or in poor taste. If however there was a context where the colour of Lesnar's skin had been particularly scrutinised, and had caused him grief around the time, and Hunt knew that, the comment might have been in poor taste, but still not racist. It's a truthful descriptor, and people when they're angry often grab whatever aspect occurs to them in the moment, when unloading on someone. Be it tall, short, fat, skinny, pretty-boy, ugly, black, white - it's often a "throwaway" addition that the person would ordinarily make no issue of, have no issue with, and harbour no biases regarding people because of.
I know people that have had friends and family hang themselves, and I adore the game Limbo. Seeing that there's a hanging scene in Limbo it would be in very poor taste if I were to extemporaneously expose any of those people to that particular scene. I'm sure that the imagery could be near to, or as painful as, the associations that some have in relation to golliwogs. The answer to the issue of people having emotional scars can't be banishing everything that may cause offence or hurt, and it can't even be banishing the things clearly more likely to cause offence or hurt. For a black person with no golliwog associated trauma, but a sister dead from a hanging suicide, having no golliwogs in the house but flippantly whipping out Limbo is going to be in extremely poor taste, potentially very hurtful, and something not automatically averted by completely ridding ourselves of typically offensive phenomena.
Probably the best we can do is be actually invested in the individuals we interact with, and try to best understand and know them so as to give ourselves a sporting chance of not needlessly hammering away on a figurative painful wound. Sweepingly telling the masses what they are/should be offended and hurt by is rather insincere and self-interested, and quite possibly a good description of what political correctness truly is.
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He was.
What about the Ten Little ******s? What could possibly be seen as racist about the tradition such stories reveal about that lovable children's toy?
I think you're just yanking the chain now
And yes, he's been hung.
Your wires are crossed. Context:
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Wasn't. I said such stories, they go beyond the image itself - as objectionable as many people seem to find that image.
