POLL: Happy or unhappy with Standard cars?

[steiner]

sorry, DP

 

[Tenacious D]

Sure having an encyclopedic level of cars is awesome but the mixed LOQ while racing can be pretty distracting and kills some of the immersion for me.

I'll have to thank steiner for the quote, because the first sentence in his post pretty much told me we would be in diametric opposition. I've never seen drastic LOQ, LOD or any serious difference between cars in a race. In fact, in replays I've had to look closely at some of the cars to see which type they were. I've honestly forgotten at times that the 350Z I've been tooling around in is a Standard, or an S2000.

As for another Gran Turismo with a GT3 car count? HELL no. 👎

Yeah, you like the cars themselves. I find it hard to believe you actually like the standard car modelling.

I'm an artist and music lover. I think you know that art runs quite a gamut from classical realism to post modern randomness. In the case of music, I like quite a gamut from classical and jazz through prog rock and a few punky alternative guys like early Bowie, Roxy Music, Peter Hammill, The Cure and The Clash. Obviously not all of these musicians are as talented, or their music on an equal level. But certain people like Hammill, Robert Smith and Trent Reznor have a quality of genius and creativity that's on par with Prokofiev or Miles Davis. To me anyhow. Maybe this is illuminating, maybe not.

I wouldn't go quite as far as steiner in wanting 500 more Standards in exchange for 200 Premiums. Believe me, I'd love to have 1500 Prems in GT6 and beyond, but if a certain competitor with an outsourced army of 400-plus people could only bring that game's car count up by 250 some odd since 2009, that should be a clue as to how hard PD's staff of 80 give-or-take modelers are working for us.

I'm grateful for what they give me. If that makes me an idiot, whatever.

 

[Samus]

GT6 is looking likely to have 400 premium cars or thereabouts which is a perfectly healthy number. Yes if you just delete the standard cars NOW then the 400 we're left with would have big holes in it but if they cut standards years ago and made sure the most important 100-150 standard models were a priority for premium I'm sure GT6 could have had a nicely balanced, premium only roster of around 500 cars (given that many models could quickly be made from one base premium model). Yes you still would have lost some cars but that's life.

Still, shoulda woulda coulda. No point going over what PD should have done now.

I'm really not sure what your paragraph about music has to do with anything but all i'm saying is I'd be amazed if you like actually the standard car modelling in 2010-2013 on a PS3 game. You can put up with it, sure, you can pretend issues aren't there or ignore them, but actually say you positively like the standard models? I wouldn't call you an idiot but I'd find that very odd and hard to believe.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

to be perfectly honest with you: if I had the choice i would trade in the 200 Premium cars for another 500 Standard cars.

I'm glad you don't work for PD.

 

[Samus]

It's really baffling when I can't think how anyone would drive 1500 different cars. There really is no need for that many cars, not unless they were all truly different anyway and as we know that is never going to be the case with PD.

The obsession with numbers is odd. If I was given a piece of paper and asked to list all the cars that would keep me happy in a game I doubt it'd top 200 cars.

 

[vovillia]

As long as their is a nice variety of cars available for each type of race, including those with restrictions

 

[C_Raccoon23]

It's really baffling when I can't think how anyone would drive 1500 different cars. There really is no need for that many cars, not unless they were all truly different anyway and as we know that is never going to be the case with PD.

The obsession with numbers is odd. If I was given a piece of paper and asked to list all the cars that would keep me happy in a game I doubt it'd top 200 cars.

Not to mention, imagining a famous brand like Gran Turismo having a game with all last-gen quality cars with no cockpit view in 2013 is not a pleasant thought. If PD really want to tarnish their image, that's a darn good way to do it. I can tolerate standard cars one last time, but that's ridiculous.

 

[Griffith500]

The obsession with numbers is odd, and it goes both ways. The large car roster is a direct result of trying to represent the widest possible gamut of car variety in the game, but leaning more towards GT's traditional "ordinary car" bias. Yes, there is also traditionally a Japanese bias, too, but that has steadily "improved" with every release.

Clearly, there are "duplicates" and even some imaginary cars, but the obvious fact is that the more cars there are, the more chance you have of including some rare little gem that may please the one fan, but perhaps entice and pleasantly surprise hundreds of others who were previously unaware of it. This is what GT has persistently done for me, anyway.

Still, we don't know what these improvements to some of the Standards will be, but hopefully there won't be any functional differences between them (except the detailed cockpit view, perhaps). If that means only a handful of people get to sample the greatness of some of those little gems that are carried over, I think it's worth it when they haven't really cost anything.

 

[steiner]

Its not about driving 1500 different cars.
Its about them beeing there. To race against. To race the game after a considerable amount of time and thinking "wth is this guy driving? Ive never seen this car before".
Makes the game more alive.
Diversity can't be wrong.


And look at the car wish threads (and complain threads). So many many cars that deserve to be in the game, so many cars fans want to see.
The ever ongoing discussion about the cars in and not in the game alone shows that theres still need for more cars.
If the cars in the game would be sufficient there wouldnt be wish threads and ongoing discussions about it.
Even the 40 skylines. I'm sure there are people who appreciate it. There are skyline fans that are more than happy to buy every skyline they can get their hands on.
The Skylines dont have to go. The other cars need as much different models!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Its not about driving 1500 different cars.
Its about them beeing there. To race against. To race the game after a considerable amount of time and thinking "wth is this guy driving? Ive never seen this car before".
Makes the game more alive.
Diversity can't be wrong.

And look at the car wish threads (and complain threads). So many many cars that deserve to be in the game, so many cars fans want to see.
The ever ongoing discussion about the cars in and not in the game alone shows that theres still need for more cars.
If the cars in the game would be sufficient there wouldnt be wish threads and ongoing discussions about it.
Even the 40 skylines. I'm sure there are people who appreciate it. There are skyline fans that are more than happy to buy every skyline they can get their hands on.
The Skylines dont have to go. The other cars need as much different models!

Unfortunately resources for car building or refurbishing are not unlimited and tradeoffs have to be made. There is only so much time/staff/budget to model so many new premiums and upgrade so many standards. I think the basic objection of many including me, revloves around working on the mass of duplicates standards and oddball cars that receive little attention, as opposed to bringing new manufacturers and models online in the form of premiums. For some people, 100 upgraded standards might be better than 10 new premiums. For others, 1 new premium might be better than 100 upgraded standards. I don't think there is much of a happy medium to be honest.

 

[steiner]

yeah sure man. That was just my take on the "obssesion with numbers" discussion and that theres more behind it then obsession for obsessions sake. It has a reason why more cars are better.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Its not about driving 1500 different cars.
Its about them beeing there. To race against. To race the game after a considerable amount of time and thinking "wth is this guy driving? Ive never seen this car before".
Makes the game more alive.
Diversity can't be wrong.


And look at the car wish threads (and complain threads). So many many cars that deserve to be in the game, so many cars fans want to see.
The ever ongoing discussion about the cars in and not in the game alone shows that theres still need for more cars.
If the cars in the game would be sufficient there wouldnt be wish threads and ongoing discussions about it.
Even the 40 skylines. I'm sure there are people who appreciate it. There are skyline fans that are more than happy to buy every skyline they can get their hands on.
The Skylines dont have to go. The other cars need as much different models!

GT is not a special case. Doesn't matter if it's GT, Forza, NFS, or whatever else, people are always going to want more cars in these racing games. But that doesn't mean it's okay to cut corners to meet demands. People just need to be patient and hope that one day their favorite cars will be put in. Part of the problem could be though, are what cars PD chooses to put in the game.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Thats interessting.
In a race i cant tell if a car is S or P.
For me its an opponent.
in replay, yes, in the starting grid, yes. in the race? no.




for a ps3 game im very ok with them.

again, at the end of the day it comes down to haveing 800 extra cars or not having them.
thats a no brainer.

There are a lot of standard cars i really like and i dont want to miss out on them in the next gt.


to be perfectly honest with you: if I had the choice i would trade in the 200 Premium cars for another 500 Standard cars.

Sure i would rather have all cars premium, but thats just not realistic.
and in case of doubt more cars > prettier cars

I got nothing on this one Let me guess you'll be more then happy if gt7 on the ps4 had nothing but standard cars right you would still except and defend them right. Gamers like you is the reason why the gt series is the way it is today a incomplete mess of a game (GT5) soon to be (GT6) 👎

 

[Cheshyrkat]

I'll have to thank steiner for the quote, because the first sentence in his post pretty much told me we would be in diametric opposition. I've never seen drastic LOQ, LOD or any serious difference between cars in a race. In fact, in replays I've had to look closely at some of the cars to see which type they were. I've honestly forgotten at times that the 350Z I've been tooling around in is a Standard, or an S2000.

As for another Gran Turismo with a GT3 car count? HELL no. 👎


*snip

I'm grateful for what they give me. If that makes me an idiot, whatever.

I dont know what you game on so but if you dont notice the LOQ difference than all I can say is awesome. I do notice, and to me it can be distracting. I know exactly which cars in my collection are standards, especially since I prefer cockpit view. Replays, enhance the disparity and looking at them in the garage can be down right disappointing.

I have no idea how much work or time PD has put into updating/enhancing the standard cars however I do feel, truly feel, that if they decided not to include them from the beginning, that effort would of went into a more balanced premium model selection of cars. Sure GT5 couldve been the GT3 of this gen. Sure the car count wouldve been limited but it wouldve been a solid foundation for GT6 and beyond. That eventually, most, if not all, of our favorite cars wouldve returned.

Dont mistake me wanting standards stripped from the game as being anti-car. My desire to have them gone is because I love cars, all types and is fueled by the disappointment that a majority of my favorite cars are still PS2 quality compared to extremely fine detailed models.

In the end, I want them gone. I dont want them to waste any more effort on them. I want them to focus effort on modeling the top favorites(as well as new cars) and stop using them as a crutch. I would gladly take a balanced list of 200 premium cars over any number of standards. Quality over Quantity.

 

[maxpontiac]

I'm with max, obviously. Most of my favorite cars are Standards.

I wouldn't go as far and say "most" for me, but a good number of the Standard cars in GT5 are some of my favorites. In fact, I spent more time driving the step child cars in GT5 then I did the premium ones and it wasn't because I was forced either!

but actually say you positively like the standard models? I wouldn't call you an idiot but I'd find that very odd and hard to believe.

Why does it have to be so black and white with the Standard cars Simon? It isn't. Am I pleased with the fact that my favorite car ever is a Standard Car? Not really. Am I happy it's in GT5? You bet. It's a blurry line to what's acceptable because we all have different opinions and feelings over subjects.

Anyways, one can find something odd and idiotic in all of us including you.

It's really baffling when I can't think how anyone would drive 1500 different cars. There really is no need for that many cars, not unless they were all truly different anyway and as we know that is never going to be the case with PD.

The obsession with numbers is odd. If I was given a piece of paper and asked to list all the cars that would keep me happy in a game I doubt it'd top 200 cars.

You can't comprehend that people want to drive over 200 cars and I can't understand why anyone would stop there. Polarizing viewpoints yet neither one is wrong. Perplexing indeed.

GT is not a special case. Doesn't matter if it's GT, Forza, NFS, or whatever else, people are always going to want more cars in these racing games. But that doesn't mean it's okay to cut corners to meet demands. People just need to be patient and hope that one day their favorite cars will be put in. Part of the problem could be though, are what cars PD chooses to put in the game.

On the flip side, you are not a special case. You feel that PDI is cutting corners and I see that PDI has gone to extra lengths to include as many cars as possible.

You just need to be patient and understand that PDI can't make every car a fully rendered masterpiece.

Part of the problem could be that PDI has done everything you have wanted with Gran Turismo.

 

[TokoTurismo]

The obsession with numbers is odd. If I was given a piece of paper and asked to list all the cars that would keep me happy in a game I doubt it'd top 200 cars.

I honestly don't understand how that's even odd. It's just numbers. What if I said the obsession with having low numbers is odd?

Oh, and about the piece of paper listing cars part. If you're a car enthusiast, I'm sure you could a list a dozen cars. Classic cars, Sportcars, Supercars, Rally cars and so on. I'm sure it'll at least reach to 200.

 

[steiner]

I got nothing on this one Let me guess you'll be more then happy if gt7 on the ps4 had nothing but standard cars right you would still except and defend them right.

No I would not be happy per se.
But that is not the question as it will not happen.
The question is do i want the 800 S cars to be in GT6 or do I dont want them to be in. And the answer is simple, sure I do want them.

Gamers like you is the reason why the gt series is the way it is today a incomplete mess of a game

And gamers like you do not understand that 3D artists dont influence how the game is layed out, how the career spans out, how the online works, what decision is made regarding sounds, livery, tuning, physics and so on. If the artists would pull a miracle and preiumed all 1000 cars in GT5, the game itself would still be the same.

And for "a complete mess" of a game its astounding how many people still play it to this day. I can tell you how long I and the people I know play a completely messed up game: Definatly not two years.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

On the flip side, you are not a special case. You feel that PDI is cutting corners and I see that PDI has gone to extra lengths to include as many cars as possible.

Looks like we will have to disagree here, I guess. Because I see it as a crutch. And I'll believe PD is going the extra mile for standards when I see that cars with improper specs have been fixed for GT6.

You just need to be patient and understand that PDI can't make every car a fully rendered masterpiece.

I'm not the one demanding cars and making wishlists. Also, when did I say I wanted all cars to be premium? During my 3 years on this site, I have never made such a ridiculous and unrealistic request. I think PD bit off more than they could chew with the detail of the premium cars. Kaz did say himself the premiums are next-gen quality.

Part of the problem could be that PDI has done everything you have wanted with Gran Turismo.

I don't understand what you're saying here, because I haven't seen everything I want in GT, like a livery editor. My point is, what would more people have been happier with seeing PD model first?

This?

Or this?

 

[J-KiLLA24]

My point is, what would more people have been happier with seeing PD model first?

This?

Or this?

Umm, the I Miev of course!

 

[A_Higher_Place]

I-miev.

I hate it. Why did it even take up PD's time?!

 

[glassjaw]

Gran Turismo 2 had 500 cars. Gran Turismo 3 had under 200. Gran Turismo 3 is the best selling game in the series as well as the most well received, critically speaking. Now of course there are many other factors besides car count and quality that made GT3 a great game. But the fact is, there are certain concessions a developer has to make with newer, more powerful hardware. Games take longer to develop. In this case, cars take longer to model. People would have completely understood if GT5 had about 250 cars, I guarantee that. It wouldn't have hurt the game critically, and it would have saved Polyphony the bad press, as well as the feeling that they released an incomplete game. But, for some reason, PD feels obligated to keep this numbers war going. To make matters worse, they inflate it with duplicates - and for what? It baffles me. I also can't understand why they insist on doing everything in house. Outsource if you have to, there's zero shame in that (despite what some people say). Or do what every other successful developer does and expand.

 

[steiner]

again, do you thing the 3D artists would suddenly start and design and programm a better game if they wouldnt take care of the cars?
unlike 3D modelling you cant just throw more money on the programming department to make the game better.
assett modeeling scales pretty good. more people more content. programming does not scale that good.
You have a set amount of programming going. Getting rid of the 3D artists and putting that money into programming and then expect the game to be better is not how it works.

 

[maxpontiac]

Looks like we will have to disagree here, I guess. Because I see it as a crutch. And I'll believe PD is going the extra mile for standards when I see that cars with improper specs have been fixed for GT6.

Indeed we will it seems.

I design homes and create construction documents for a living and it is impossible for me to catch every mistake I have made with a set of building plans. I can imagine how daunting the task would be to proof read every single line of detail in a video game. Possible yes, but practically, no.

I'm not the one demanding cars and making wishlists. Also, when did I say I wanted all cars to be premium? During my 3 years on this site, I have never made such a ridiculous and unrealistic request. I think PD bit off more than they could chew with the detail of the premium cars. Kaz did say himself the premiums are next-gen quality.

Well, you may not be specifically stating that you want every car to be a "premium" but in a sense aren't you by being critical of the "standards". My favorite car in GT5 is the '65 Pontiac Tempest GTO. It's a "standard" and by no stretch of the imagination do I want the car ever removed unless there is a "premium" version in its place. This applies to the PS4 versions too.

I don't understand what you're saying here

My apologies as I posted my reply to you in-between working. I have a bad habit of skipping a word or two... try this.

maxpontiac
Part of the problem could be that PDI has NOT done everything you have wanted with Gran Turismo.

I hope this clarifies what I was saying to you.

This? Or this?

To you and a lot of others, the BMW is the way to go. For someone else, the Mitsubishi is the right car. Who is right? Who is wrong? No one, in both cases. I can only suggest that you hunker down and pray that BMW is in GT6.

 

[GT5Redsucker23]

If they improved them somehow then Im happy that they included Standard cars.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

To me, the older cars are much more interesting to look at, photograph and mod than the constant stream of soapdish roundy bodies that typify most new cars these days, like the Beemers since 2005 or so.

Well that sure is convenient then, since Standards are incapable of properly round bodies anyways. The octagonal Diablo wheel wells being a perfect example.

As for another Gran Turismo with a GT3 car count? HELL no. 👎

As for another Gran Turismo with GT3's consistent level of quality across the entire game? HELL yes. 👍

I'm an artist and music lover. I think you know that art runs quite a gamut from classical realism to post modern randomness. In the case of music, I like quite a gamut from classical and jazz through prog rock and a few punky alternative guys like early Bowie, Roxy Music, Peter Hammill, The Cure and The Clash. Obviously not all of these musicians are as talented, or their music on an equal level. But certain people like Hammill, Robert Smith and Trent Reznor have a quality of genius and creativity that's on par with Prokofiev or Miles Davis. To me anyhow. Maybe this is illuminating, maybe not.

I'm not sure what this really has to do with the topic: I'm a graphic designer and find the Standards embarrassing. I could see the difference in quality on a 14" old tube TV just as easily as I could on a 32" LED.

I wouldn't go as far and say "most" for me, but a good number of the Standard cars in GT5 are some of my favorites. In fact, I spent more time driving the step child cars in GT5 then I did the premium ones and it wasn't because I was forced either!

There's a good chunk of Standards that are some of my favorites too: first-gen MR2, '70 Galant, first-gen WRX's of any sort, so many of the Lotii, the E46's, and don't even get me started on the race cars. So it's very disappointing to get them in GT and find the experience is barely any different from when I drove them over eight years ago. Yes, the physics are different - but really, why wouldn't try be after this long? And the wheel selection is worse than GT4's - forget that it took a solid year to add the simple option in.

On the flip side, you are not a special case. You feel that PDI is cutting corners and I see that PDI has gone to extra lengths to include as many cars as possible.

I don't see how repackaging old content is going to extra lengths. When VW released the mkV Golf, they kept the mkIV running for a few years here as the "City Golf", and advertised it as a new car. It wasn't, and they hadn't gone to extra lengths to give consumers a newer, cheaper option. They just slapped on some ugly taillights to an old model.

You just need to be patient and understand that PDI can't make every car a fully rendered masterpiece.

I'll ignore the implications this has regarding Kaz' "perfectionist" status, but on the contrary: I am patient. I don't expect 1000 premiums. Which is precisely why I'd be fine with a Premiums-only game, just as I was fine with GT3. I understand good things take time, and I'd rather them done properly.

(Ninja-edit) removed another quote as max clarified 👍

What if I said the obsession with having low numbers is odd?

I'd agree with you, since most people who aren't fans of Standards aren't calling for a low car count simply for the sake of it. I want all cars to a level of quality that is on par with the generation, and consistent across the game. Considering everybody else can do it in the genre, don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[Imari]

To you and a lot of others, the BMW is the way to go. For someone else, the Mitsubishi is the right car. Who is right? Who is wrong? No one, in both cases. I can only suggest that you hunker down and pray that BMW is in GT6.

For a driving game that is heavily biased towards racing (in that the only places you can drive are race tracks) and that aspires to be a sort of encyclopaedia of cars, to include the iMiev over the M3 is the wrong choice.

Not about preferences or anything else, you'll always find someone that will prefer one thing over the other. That's fine. In terms of appeal to the audience the game is designed for (car enthusiasts) and the game's own stated goals the iMiev is wrong.

The M3 has great historical significance in that it was and still is a very popular car, was very successful as a race car, spawned a very successful line for BMW that still continues today (although not for much longer, thank you M4) and is an excellent early example of a good sporty coupe based on a family sedan.

The iMiev is a city car with the engine ripped out and an electric motor stuck in. It isn't a class leader in any way, it doesn't race (unless you count this abomination), and it has as far as I can tell no historic significance. The only interesting feature it has is that it's got the engine in the back, but since it's a functional item purely designed to take you to the shops and back it's not like the driving is an important characteristic at all.

I notice that PD didn't think the normal Mitsubishi i was good enough to go in, so it's there purely because when GT5 was sold environmentalism was in full swing. It was a trendy choice.

And not even in any sense that is relevant to a game. Almost all the reasons for buying an iMiev in the real world (economy, energy efficiency, practicality) don't apply to a game. A lot of the reasons for buying an M3 (great to drive) do apply to a game, in a big way.

So, in terms of preferences there's not much to be said. Personal preferences will always be personal. In terms of what GT5 tries to be, it's absolutely wrong to have an iMiev over an M3.

 

[Spagetti69]

I can honestly say I am indifferent to them at this point.

I'm not raising my expectations on a number if things GT related. Maybe I will get a pleasant surprise. Maybe not.

 

[Shirrako]

I'm hoping there won't be more Standard cars in GT6 than Premium ones, at least 600 premiums or i will be disappointed.

 

[A_Higher_Place]

I'm hoping there won't be more Standard cars in GT6 than Premium ones, at least 600 premiums or i will be disappointed.

At first glance this post was completely shot down (in my mind).

But I'm thinking PD will take up the challenge of removing multiple duplicates. I just wonder if anyone has worked out what the standard car list could be without duplicates. (Duplicates not meaning completely identical...)

So lets say... 450 premiums vs XXX standards at this point? (I'd guesstimate around 600)

So going off complete speculation that doesn't sound so bad

 

[Shirrako]

At first glance this post was completely shot down (in my mind).

But I'm thinking PD will take up the challenge of removing multiple duplicates. I just wonder if anyone has worked out what the standard car list could be without duplicates. (Duplicates not meaning completely identical...)

So lets say... 450 premiums vs XXX standards at this point? (I'd guesstimate around 600)

So going off complete speculation that doesn't sound so bad

With more premiums the game's quality would dramatically increase, but my biggest desire in GT is a large amount of A-spec Races with a 4 car choice after the win like in GT3 and customization for every car with atleast 3 bodykits and livery editor or the ability to put vinyls on your car, the information we received about GT6's customization is very confusing.