[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[jeffgoddin]

Ah, I wasn't following this thread, just DYSAGT, where I always look forward to his posts. Yeah, the ban-hammer comes down, on me, too (don't drunk post...)

But to be thread appropriate, Nader!! Was the first time I voted, then the Green in 2004, David Cobb, and not since. I'm an Ohioan, can't understand how freedom-individualists think they can turn around and tell a woman she can't have an abortion, but other than that, Kasich has been good to Ohio. And when I lived in Cali the Governator was good, too. That's the Green thing, progressive on social, but local is better, so in between Dems and Reps. Hillary would do okay. But, how is it that these candidates are the best America has to choose from? All pretty much suck, how do we fix what is broken here?

Yeah, I have the answer, instant runoff voting, or ranked choice if you prefer. No primaries, everybody in the general, and ballots that let you put the candidates in the order of your choosing. Nobody gets a majority? Eliminate the lowest 1st place vote getter and assign those votes to the 2nd place choices on those ballots. Rinse and repeat if necessary until there are only 2 candidates left, one will have a majority. The main advantage of instant runoff? Everybody wants to be everybody else's 2nd choice, so candidates are nice to each other. And there's no silly primary where only the hardcore extremist voters come out, so extremist candidates aren't bumping out moderate candidates before the general election (stupid Tea Party.) And at the end of the process, we have moderates in office who can work together and who better reflect the views of most voters. The main reason why people are radical/extreme today against government, and voting for Bernie or Trump, is because for decades now the primary system has favored extremists and now they hold our legislatures hostage in order to make their idealistic points, and so our government has essentially ceased to function. Instant runoff voting would correct that problem.

Oh, and it might also break the two-party system, which has failed us so miserably. Throw in a dissolution of the Senate and its replacement with a proportionally elected body (Parliament...), keep the House as it is, and America would be a profoundly more functional place to live.

 

[squadops]

I don't agree with you on much of it, but.... 👍

 

[Com Fox]

And finally, who is voting here anyway? I would assume it is only US registered voters. But I see nothing to assure me of that.

I already gave away that I voted for Trump so no, there are some outsiders

 

[jeffgoddin]

IRV (instant runoff voting) isn't a much discussed subject, so I wouldn't expect a ready response, but I'm a Structuralist. Public transit doesn't work in a spread out city like Cleveland, but NYC is the most ecological city in the USA because it's so compact and dense, that's an illustration of what I mean by structuralism. Rules and systems (structure) are crucial to the success of our democracy, and the current systems aren't working, and IRV I believe is the single most significant change we could make. After that, yes, campaign finance reform.

But IRV has several side benefits, too. No primaries = only one election = our elected officials have more time to devote to actually governing, instead of running for office. And only one election also = less need for fundraising for advertising = less money from special interests (and less money for stupid media outlets, added bonus.)

Seriously, primaries in an age where technology makes IRV voting machines super easy is as infuriating to me as pennies. What the heck is the point of pennies?? Total waste of time!!

 

[squadops]

I already gave away that I voted for Trump so no, there are some outsiders

The poll does very little to indicate the true outcome of course, it's just a bit of fun for us here 👍

 

[squadops]

@jeffgoddin, first off, we are not a democracy. I understand to a small degree what you are saying about elections, but I am from an age where we defend the constitution 👍

 

[jeffgoddin]

well true, we are a republic, states rights first

but the constitution is pretty old, and (understatement) a lot has changed since then. so maybe, just maybe, some amendments are in order?

like maybe not everybody needs to have a gun to defend against the tyranny of the state? I mean, when was the last time a local militia stood up against the feds and won? never? a few times in the 1790s I'm pretty sure some disagreements led to conflict, but what state currently thinks it needs its citizens armed to fend off the feds? archaic. I like most of the guys I know who own guns, heck yeah, feel fee to blow hundreds of bucks at the range shooting lead whenever you want! but the NRA and the whole 2nd amendment thing is another example of how, frankly, silly special interests are holding our country hostage. The NRA is the enemy. No, gun control won't reduce the rate of random mass shootings. Crazies will be crazy. But it will reduce the number of assault rifles and automatic handguns in circulation, and therefore the deaths among law enforcement officers and innocent bystanders. Feel free to disagree, Americans love to ignore facts, so I won't be surprised.

 

[squadops]

I will get you something, too bad I've posted it twice already, but I presume you didn't see it which is no worry. I find it...

I don't mind posting it again if you bother to read it 👍

About to enter, fellow-citizens, on the exercise of duties which comprehend everything dear and valuable to you, it is proper you should understand what I deem the essential principles of our Government, and consequently those which ought to shape its Administration. I will compress them within the narrowest compass they will bear, stating the general principle, but not all its limitations. Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencies; the preservation of the General Government in its whole constitutional vigor, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad; a jealous care of the right of election by the people -- a mild and safe corrective of abuses which are lopped by the sword of revolution where peaceable remedies are unprovided; absolute acquiescence in the decisions of the majority, the vital principle of republics, from which is no appeal but to force, the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism; a well-disciplined militia, our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war till regulars may relieve them; the supremacy of the civil over the military authority; economy in the public expense, that labor may be lightly burthened; the honest payment of our debts and sacred preservation of the public faith; encouragement of agriculture, and of commerce as its handmaid; the diffusion of information and arraignment of all abuses at the bar of the public reason; freedom of religion; freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected. These principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation. The wisdom of our sages and blood of our heroes have been devoted to their attainment. They should be the creed of our political faith, the text of civic instruction, the touchstone by which to try the services of those we trust; and should we wander from them in moments of error or of alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty, and safety.

There ya go, but please read it all a few times.

How did I miss the gun part? oh brother I sometimes don't give you guys the respect I should when reading. Sorry for that.

We absolutely have the right to arms, for the specific purpose of protecting ourselves from the crazy government monster we have created. I stand very strong on that.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

To the 19.5% who voted for Trump, could you please tell me exactly WHY you want him to be POTUS? I've asked some of my acquaintances who are Trump supporters, and all they told me was "Trump will build a wall, that's most important." They didn't really have a clue.

I actually need coherent sentences, please.

I get the same bs response from those who are willing to vote Hilary, or even Cruz. Better question is why does the Trump support bug you more than any of the others?

 

[squadops]

I have the answer LMS

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I have the answer LMS

You always have an answer

 

[squadops]

hahaha 👍

TBH, it was Steve that gave the answer, he said to the effect of "vote your conscience"

 

[jeffgoddin]

I will get you something, too bad I've posted it twice already, but I presume you didn't see it which is no worry. I find it...

I don't mind posting it again if you bother to read it 👍



There ya go, but please read it all a few times.

How did I miss the gun part? oh brother I sometimes don't give you guys the respect I should when reading. Sorry for that.

We absolutely have the right to arms, for the specific purpose of protecting ourselves from the crazy government monster we have created. I stand very strong on that.

That's pretty solid, where's that from?

 

[squadops]

Jefferson's inaugural address 👍

And sorry if I ninja'd you

 

[jeffgoddin]

Yeah, Jefferson is awesome. But right to guns and cannons and tanks and fighter planes to fend off the federal government? Don't be silly. You can't win. Just get shot up like the guys on Ruby Ridge or Waco or Wounded Knee or recently in Washington. And in the mean time while defending your right to unlimited weaponry criminals take advantage to kill cops. Be reasonable.

 

[squadops]

I'm going to keep mine

The truth to me in that aspect is one of responsibility, we have a thread for it here so I'll just say that the government that we formed was only meant for a responsible people.

All these edits lol...

I am reasonable, you seem to think that our federal government cannot fail, that reminds me of someone who said the same things about the banks. You might not have an idea of just how bad things can become in a hurry.

It is most likely not your fault, depending upon your age or demographic. I don't cry the sky is falling but I do know it could. No offense intended.

 

[jeffgoddin]

Heh, and what proportion of voters are responsible people? Like I said above, all the gun owners I know I'm fine with them having their guns, but the gun issue is another example of broken politics in America. The whole divisive right vs left (I'm in the middle if you didn't catch that) in my opinion is a ploy to disenfranchise people, so special interests can have their way while we fight each other over unimportant issues, and the 2nd Amendment is one of the big wedges they use to separate us middle Americans, who otherwise have so much in common (we're all poor, right?). Nobody's trying to take recreational guns away from anybody, but some of us would like to see assault rifles and fully automatic handguns taken out of circulation for safety's sake. If you think you need your assault rifle and automatic handgun to defend yourself from the feds... well you've just bought into the propaganda meant to divide us. Abortion, unions, and immigration as well. Middle of the road is the best path. Unless you want another civil war? Because that's where this push to extremes will lead. Already there's violence by Trump supporters, and Trump himself has declared "there will be riots" if there is a contested Convention. And if he delivers on his promises, there will be a coup d'etat, as I cannot imagine the military acting on illegal orders from the "Commander in Chief." And yet, apparently Trump speaks for a large portion of America. Given that troubling (to me) fact, where are we heading? Civil War? Where do you want to go?

Back to the beginning, no, I don't believe most voters are responsible people... (I lived in Ecuador when Abdala Bucaram was elected, so my faith in democracy is already compromised...) Which is why I believe we need structural change to save our country, by which I mean to say Constitutional Amendments. Before that happens, I don't think it really matters who's selected president.

 

[squadops]

What we need are leaders that respect the law, but I've already stated that. Indeed there are wedges going this way and that, I agree. I don't claim to have all the answers, far from that, why do you think I want to be able to protect myself from the so called authority?

Anyway, here is the propor thread 👍
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/guns.33891/page-130

btw, all of my arms serve a specific purpose, I have fancy toys but not the ones you speak of, and what the hell is a shooting range?

I hunt and also fish where I need protection.

My right is still mine to protect myself from the government, that is what it's all about. I should never need to however.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yet lives in Canada.

Yes I do. You think Canadians are one homogeneus group that all think exactly the same way?

 

[mustafur]

Yes I do. You think Canadians are one homogeneus group that all think exactly the same way?

Not at all, but to call Bernie a raging socialist when he barely is Socialist at his core is a far fetch response given where you live.

 

[squadops]

That is bs to be frank, why would it matter where someone might live to call a spade a spade?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not at all, but to call Bernie a raging socialist when he barely is Socialist at his core is a far fetch response given where you live.

How does where I live have anything to do with it? Opinions are restricted by country now? And you might want to give Bernie a call and tell him to stop calling himself a democratic socialist.

 

[mustafur]

Because your living in more socialism then what he advocates. But this is just me guessing one who lives in said Country understands said Country.

Also do you understand Democratic Socialism isn't the same as Actual Socialism?

 

[squadops]

Canada is not a socialist country, they have a capitalist economy at least.

 

[mustafur]

Canada is not a socialist country, they have a capitalist economy at least.

Mixed economy, but we should also mention that no country on earth really has a Socialist Economy apart from say North Korea.

 

[squadops]

Still not socialist are they? Even if they were, the point still stands I would think.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Because your living in more socialism then what he advocates. But this is just me guessing one who lives in said Country understands said Country.

Also do you understand Democratic Socialism isn't the same as Actual Socialism?

Why does it matter what my country is in order for me to express an opinion? I still don't follow. Canada is not a homogeneus country. I mentioned that a couple of posts ago, perhaps you missed it. We are 35 Million individuals.

Mixed economy, but we should also mention that no country on earth really has a Socialist Economy apart from say North Korea.

You've never heard of China, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Finland....

 

[mustafur]

America's economy right now is soo twisted to call it Capitalism is a laugh.

When you have Certain Businesses pushing laws to favour their existence over others it's a less free Business environment then a Highly regulated one.

 

[mustafur]

Why does it matter what my country is in order for me to express an opinion? I still don't follow. Canada is not a homogeneus country. I mentioned that a couple of posts ago, perhaps you missed it. We are 35 Million individuals.

Well do you call Canada a raging Socialist Country?

 

[Com Fox]

To the 19.5% who voted for Trump, could you please tell me exactly WHY you want him to be POTUS? I've asked some of my acquaintances who are Trump supporters, and all they told me was "Trump will build a wall, that's most important." They didn't really have a clue.

I actually need coherent sentences, please.

Because I am a sadistic 🤬 who just wants to watch the world burn.