Pre-release GT5:Prologue Thread Firmware 2.17 mandatory for GT5:P? (and Pictures)

[Grand Prix]

I don't think the samples are the problem.. it's the way they're handled by the sound engine. They could get much better results with their existing samples than we've seen before.

What, you mean the blending of the samples between RPMs in the game? Hmm, maybe. Is it possible that they recorded a LOT of different RPM samples for every car but only used a few samples per car in previous games? Makes me wonder if they planned ahead for the PS3.

 

[DappaDaRealist]

All they have to do is record every manufacturer's engines on a dyno. They don't have to record every car that's going to be in the game, just do one recording session of a Ford V8, Ferrari V8, Porsche Flat 6, etc. In theory the Ford V8 in the Shelby Cobra should sound similar to the GT40's Ford V8, but they sound completely different in the game for some reason. This issue can be easily fixed! If they use this method they only have to do 180 cars, maybe 120, and they'll sound genuine at least. PD are making it too hard on themselves.

Just to clarify are you saying all cars with the same engine type setup for example a v8, should have their soundFX sourced from one or a few similar v8s?

 

[Grand Prix]

Just to clarify are you saying all cars with the same engine type setup for example a v8, should have their soundFX sourced from one or a few similar v8s?

Precisely! Although there are differences in how manufacturers produce their V8s, the sounds that will be produced will be very similar to each other. Exhaust sounds also come in play, but these produce very subtle changes. No matter how much a tuner tries, he will never be able to make the Inline 4 in his car sound like V8 or V12 because it is limited to a certain frequency.

This is a Mercedes CLR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njxyt2n5CZo

This is a Toyota GT-One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6kKoNSrnI

Similar frequencies, but slightly different pitch.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^Those are all out race cars. I think we're talking more about road cars like Dodge Vipers, Enzo Ferraris, F430, ZO6, Skylines, Turbo/Supercharged cars and things like that. I don't know about you but an LS1 Camaro sounds nothing like a Mustang GT or Cobra. Also, a Porsche Carrera GT's V10 sounds nothing like a Dodge Viper's V10.

Also, turbos and superchargers will change the sound that an engine puts out. Listen to an NA 4 banger and one that is Turbocharged and you'll notice a big difference. There's also a huge difference between a Turbocharged car and a Supercharged car with the same engine. Not only that but different exhausts will result in different sounds. Just way too many variables for any developers to simulate in just a few years unless they're working like dogs all year round.

I just want the sounds in the game to have more of a "grunt" to them like they're actually under full acceleration and not part throttling all the way to redline.

 

[RACECAR]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree on that, Grand Prix. While two cars may share the same engine, they wouldn't automatically sound similar. Here are two examples:

Shelby Cobra


Ford GT40

 

[DarthTurismo]

Puh'lease, don't give us that rubbish. Of course you can get a feel for how the cars handle using the normal pad. After all, the game has been designed with the pad as the primary control method in mind. If you turn the wheels with the thumbstick and you hear the tyres screech a bit and the car fails to turn the corner as you wanted, that's understeer…not rocket science.

Yes, a wheel will be a bit better (read more fun), but a pad is still adequate.

Thanks for correcting my naive opinion on the realism of using a pad as opposed to an actual steering wheel!! tell me Nomino, when do you plan to rip out your steering wheel in your car and replace it with a ps3 pad! hahaha! I'm guessing you probably use the behind the car cam when using your joypad too just to get that extra bit of "seat of yr pantz" realism!! good on ya champ

 

[Grand Prix]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree on that, Grand Prix. While two cars may share the same engine, they wouldn't automatically sound similar. Here are two examples:

Shelby Cobra


Ford GT40

If you listen carefully, you'll notice the frequencies are similar. The Cobra has a higher pitch.

My point: If you were given a sound clip of an engine, and you weren't told what it was, you'd probably be able to guess what engine configuration it is right away. It's the frequency of it that would allow you to identify it. Which means PD must be doing something very wrong when the C5-R Corvette doesn't sound anything like a V8, and when a McLaren F1 GTR doesn't sound like a V12, it sounds like a GT-One which doesn't sound like a V8, LOL.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yeah, there's no denying that a wheel offers an overall better experience, but to say that you can't tell if the physics are good or not by using a D pad is wrong.

I personally can't agree with this view at all.

The association of feel with a hand controller is only on the most primitive, coarse, visceral level. There is no comparison with the riding of "on the edge" driving dynamics using a wheel controller. The ability to ride the fine edge of grip and control absolutely trounces a hand controller. So exploring the various driving dynamics of a new game with a hand controller isn't going to even get me to take it seriously.

I played both Forza 2 and GT HD with a hand controller and... well, basically couldn't very well at all. When I finally got my PS3 and downloaded GT HD, played it with my DF Pro, I had to roll my eyes at all the folk who insisted it played exactly the same as GT4. You guys have not a clue. Even on that tweaked GT4 physics engine, the sense of handling a real vehicle was much greater.

I also have to say that after beating Forza 2, it's a great game, no doubt. But I'm tired of the non-leaning cars, the exaggerated oversteer, the incorrect yawing, the horrid tire sounds, and the even more lame replays, many other things that remind me that I'm playing a Microsoft game.

I can hardly wait to get my mits on Prologue.

 

[Earth]

Anyone notice that in the Daytona pics and videos PD has modeled the track with the stands empty, half full, and full. I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of Suzuka with empty stands as well.

I'm wondering and hoping that PD will change the population of the stands overtime in endurance races. For a 24 hour race, full for the start, near empty through the mourning hours, and back to full for the finish

But I'm pretty sure it is a lock that testing will have no one in the stands, qualifying will have the stands half empty, and the race will have the stands full.

Yes I know the stands were empty during driving tests in GT1 and propably in other GT games but it's never looked this good. Again, hopefully PD will play around with this and use it to make the game feel more realistic.

 

[Kamus]

I personally can't agree with this view at all.

The association of feel with a hand controller is only on the most primitive, coarse, visceral level. There is no comparison with the riding of "on the edge" driving dynamics using a wheel controller. The ability to ride the fine edge of grip and control absolutely trounces a hand controller. So exploring the various driving dynamics of a new game with a hand controller isn't going to even get me to take it seriously.

I played both Forza 2 and GT HD with a hand controller and... well, basically couldn't very well at all. When I finally got my PS3 and downloaded GT HD, played it with my DF Pro, I had to roll my eyes at all the folk who insisted it played exactly the same as GT4. You guys have not a clue. Even on that tweaked GT4 physics engine, the sense of handling a real vehicle was much greater.

I also have to say that after beating Forza 2, it's a great game, no doubt. But I'm tired of the non-leaning cars, the exaggerated oversteer, the incorrect yawing, the horrid tire sounds, and the even more lame replays, many other things that remind me that I'm playing a Microsoft game.

I can hardly wait to get my mits on Prologue.

Ok.. you obviously haven't played either F355 challenge or Enthusia, trust me... you CAN tell with a gamepad if the physics are better.

The tyres feel COMPLETLEY different in enthusia than in any GT game, with or with out gamepad.

I've never played with out a steering wheel for extended periods of time. It doesn't mean however, that i haven't tried any of the games i've played at least once with the gamepad.

You can polish a pinto all you want, it's still a pinto.

GTHD *might* feel different than GT4, it's still nowhere near the level of realisim that enthusia gives you.
The difference is night and day.

So yes, using a steering wheel is a much better experience (If i didn't think so i wouldnt have bought a 410 dollar pedal upgrade for my DFP, ECCI pedals.)

You seem to be missing the point entirely.
Which is, YES. You CAN tell if the physics are different using just a gamepad. You can tell even using a digital keyboard.
You're gonna suck at it, and you sure as hell won't be able do a proper lap, let alone drift if the physics are acurate. but you CAN tell if they are good or not by just getting a feel of the tyres.

If you want to compare gt4's or gt hd's physics to a far more worthy console competitor, just go play Enthusia. the controller alone would let you know the physics are better, but to even attempt to be good at the game, you NEED a steering wheel, preferably a DFP. (it's the best use out of 900 degrees you'll ever get out of your steering wheel, if anything you'll feel you have to turn TOO much because the DFP is so small compared to the real life wheel counterpart in production cars.) Enthusia is so far, the only console sim i've seen where drifts are done in exctly the same way as they are in a real car, you HAVE to make use of the 900 degrees in a lot of situations to keep the car in control.

F355 challenge was extremley playable with a dreamcast pad, because of the analog buttons for accel/brake. but of course it still didn't hold a candle to the arcade experience, you could however tell. that GT3 felt very arcady compared to it, with JUST the gamepad.

So, lets call things for what they are, you could drive a Real car with a Playstation controller if it was implemented to work with it, and trust me. while it would be a horrible driving experience, you could DEFINITLY tell if the physics were realistic...

 

[amar212]

Ok.. you obviously haven't played either F355 challenge or Enthusia, trust me... you CAN tell with a gamepad if the physics are better.

Don't say this to Tenacious, please...please?

 

[Max_DC]

Max_DC,
did you only drive proffesional mode with controller of did u get a chance to race with G25/DFP???? Or for that matter is there any one else who can describe proff mode physics with DFP/G25 out there!!!!????

normally i just read these forums and don't respond but....... after reading max dc's comments about the physics of GT5P using a controller???? i just had to comment! I think it's great that you were able to try the game and yes everyone is entitled to their opinion..... but (OMHO) summing up the physics of a racing game using a handheld controller and not the steering wheel is just silly! You cannot accurately determine how good the feeling of understeer vs oversteer and correction/over correction is. So until someone actually comments on the new physics using a steering wheel we will never know until the game is released!

Nope there were only gamepads availible. Several people already posted their opinion on your views and I also think that using a controller gives you enough information about the handling of game to determine if it's realistic or not.
I agree however, that a racing wheel is the ultimate weapon of choice for realistic racing games .

I agree that even with the controller you should still be able to fairly judge the "handling" at least when comparing other driving games also using a controller and based on your own personal preference... apples to apples right.

That said, I also wouldn't jump to any conclusions or start lighting the torches based on someone posting their own personal opinion, for which could be influenced by any number of different things... and this is even if you choose to believe what they say is true. After all, there is no shortage of false information that get's posted on the internet, and unfortunately, this forum like other's isn't void of this problem.

I recall many people and web sites making factual claims that GT5 was not going to be available in the US, and getting quite upset over it, despite the actual fact that it simply had not yet been announced. Neither Sony nor PD ever said it wasn’t going to be available and then decided to change their mind, but people are going to read into things the way they want to, and unfortunately will disguise their personal opinion as being some kind of fact.

There are a lot of people and a lot of sites that are going to be posting a lot of personal opinions, claims, and misleading info either to draw attention to themselves or their sites. If you don't want to stress out, and don't want to subject yourself to a lot of opinions disguised as facts, that may very well mislead you, I might suggest taking what your read with a huge grain of salt, or even wait until the game is out and you've had a chance to try it out yourself before jumping to any conclusions based on some anecdotal posts you read on the internet.

I can't help DN, but when I read your post I somehow get the idea that you are talking about me when you say :

...That said, I also wouldn't jump to any conclusions or start lighting the torches based on someone posting their own personal opinion, for which could be influenced by any number of different things... and this is even if you choose to believe what they say is true. After all, there is no shortage of false information that get's posted on the internet, and unfortunately, this forum like other's isn't void of this problem...

Although what you say is very true in general, I'd still like to explain things again... since I'm not some Forzafanboy who likes to bash GT5 just to get some attention

I was on the IAA in Frankfurt ( worlds largest car show if somebody shouldn't know that ) and there was a Sony truck with GT5 prologue. So I went into that truck and found some nfs-children playing GT5 with very little success. The TV was highdef, but only 720P so the graphics were ok, but not as good as they would've been on a 1080P TV. The interio was nice nevertheless and there were a lot of cars, probably 16 in total.

Then it was my turn. First of all I got this horrid sixaxis pad. The analog sticks had even less resistance than they normally had, as I said before : totally wornout. I then turned off all driving aids and switched to pro mode, then I chose the new GT-R and started the race.

What should I say, it just didn't feel right. I mean I was neither driving a 900 hp FR car nor a 6 ton truck with failing brakes. It was 450 hp AWD Skyline, 1,5 tons with decent brakes. Yet the car didn't really brake.

I mean, have a look at my pics in the signature. I love racing games and I played them all. F355 clallenge, Enthusia, GT, Forza etc and I also drive a car with comparable brakes in real life.

It all felt a little over the top, especially the brakes. The handling itself was ok, I had no problems to control the car whatsoever (aslong as I didn't have to slow down before a corner ). The car probably had no ABS, but I knew that and it didn't help me to get realistic braking conditions. It felt like slowing down a 5 ton soviet miltary truck with brakes that had their last checkup in the late 80's ...

To be fair though, I only raced 2 laps with a bad controller, having played Forza for countless hours the days before. And I had no sound and no rumble ( used to it ) Yet I know Suzuka by heart, I am used to realistic driving games and to Gran Turismo. It was a huge difference compared to GTHD, but yeah well it just didn't feel that perfect.

Conclusion : 2 laps are not enough to give a proper review, but I'd say that Enthusia is still on top concerning realism (on consoles). Let's wait for the final game.

 

[unv412]

Thanks for the info Max DC,seems like the GTR proto is too fast for its brakes!First thing i probably would have done if i had a chance to play is..... the biggest hand brake induced 4WD doughnuts (we call them HELI'S in Australia) just to see if GT5P had fixed the physics!!!lol.........thats assuming a GTR proto could do them?????

 

[The359]

Precisely! Although there are differences in how manufacturers produce their V8s, the sounds that will be produced will be very similar to each other. Exhaust sounds also come in play, but these produce very subtle changes. No matter how much a tuner tries, he will never be able to make the Inline 4 in his car sound like V8 or V12 because it is limited to a certain frequency.

This is a Mercedes CLR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njxyt2n5CZo

This is a Toyota GT-One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6kKoNSrnI

Similar frequencies, but slightly different pitch.

The Toyota GT-One is a turbocharged 3.6L V8. The CLR is a naturally aspirated 5.7L V8. They shouldn't sound the same at all really, they're completely different except for the number of cylinders.

 

[RedBaron]

Shelby Cobra sounds pretty well already in GT4, so if they use quality samples for that aged sound engine, solution can be very good. Shelby Mustang sounds genial, that high "singing" V8 sound reminds me Ferrari F355. But V8's have very different sounds, it depends on bore / hub / ignition sequence / NA or turbo, exhaust etc.

 

[TheCracker]

When I'm sat in my car I see everything, I generally focus on the road, but I still see the wheel and the dash and the mirrors. Thoes cameras arn't mounted in the drivers visor, they're mounted on the dash, behind the wheel, a lot further forwards than a driver sits. I agree that views like GTR's give you a letterbox perspective, but that's because a TV work like out eyes do, not because the position of the camera is wrong.

There's a huge difference between what you can see and what you do see when you are driving a car. What GT5's (and most other racing games) in-car cockpit views show are acurate to what you would be able to see in your field of vision if it was you sat in that car. However, when you are concentrating on driving your natural focus is on the view out of the screen, your wheel, dashboard and A-pillars are barely a blur. TV screens, unfortunately, are never going to provide you with the depth of field necessary to acurately represent this. This leaves all these cockpit views giving ou the impression that you are driving from the backseat of your car.

 

[STINGer71]

Gran Turismo 5: Prologue release on non-Japanese terrirotires has been postponed for Q1 2008, probably for March release. In other words, Play-Asia, here we come.

Amen to that, my dear friend

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-bp-49-en-15-gt5+prologue-70-29jx.html

Dec 04 looks pretty optimistic, but...

 

[Little_Donkey]

here some more

They all sound like real cars for me, maybe they are not the real sound for the cars but they sound good
shelby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmV6s3ntYA
Mustang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCtXWJu8ZmA
GT40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yALEbyqH14s

well dunno but compared to gt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT-GlopVJK8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhbEqkHM8T8

The sound from Formula one CE on ps3 were very good. Also every car had different engine sounds. And the replay sounds were like real.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Thanks... I think I'll be happy to wait a few extra weeks for a proper English translation version. After all, I've waited this long, a few more weeks aren't going to make any difference in the long run.

 

[Hiroke]

Gran Turismo 5: Prologue release on non-Japanese terrirotires has been postponed for Q1 2008, probably for March release. In other words, Play-Asia, here we come.

Just a damn shame that Play-Asia doesn't ship PS3 games to the EU anymore.

 

[buickgnx88]

That video of the Shelby that Little_Donkey posted sounded awesome!

 

[STINGer71]

Thanks... I think I'll be happy to wait a few extra weeks for a proper English translation version. After all, I've waited this long, a few more weeks aren't going to make any difference in the long run.

Few more months, not weeks

Just a damn shame that Play-Asia doesn't ship PS3 games to the EU anymore.

Since when? About 10 days ago i bought Japanese Everybody's Golf 5 for PS3... OK, Croatia is still not part of EU

 

[Speedster502]

What!? March?! Thats ridiculous. Yes I can understand shipping dates etc however it shouldn't take that long to convert it into English then ship it off here...

 

[STINGer71]

What!? March?! Thats ridiculous. Yes I can understand shipping dates etc however it shouldn't take that long to convert it into English then ship it off here...

Why would Sony spoil their Xmas earning when they can have a full earning in march without any competition?

 

[FoolKiller]

What!? March?! Thats ridiculous. Yes I can understand shipping dates etc however it shouldn't take that long to convert it into English then ship it off here...

My question is: Shouldn't we have a hard date for GT5 by then? If it is only a couple of months away at that point then I see no point in getting Prologue.

 

[Speedster502]

My question is: Shouldn't we have a hard date for GT5 by then? If it is only a couple of months away at that point then I see no point in getting Prologue.

Exactly, putting it out that late means there is no point in getting it.

 

[Grand Prix]

The Toyota GT-One is a turbocharged 3.6L V8. The CLR is a naturally aspirated 5.7L V8. They shouldn't sound the same at all really, they're completely different except for the number of cylinders.

Well of course they're going to have subtle differences in sound. They're just limited in the range of sounds they can produce because they are V8s. My point is that no matter much you do to a internal combustion engine, it will always be a V8, V12, I4 etc. at heart. You can't change the basic sound frequencies it will produce simply because of the way the pistons fire off in sequence. You can't make a V8 sound like a V12, it's impossible.

Now if we get really complicated, some V6s can sound almost like a V12, and a V8 can sound almost like a V16, because they fire off in similar manners. Of course, the V16 would have a more substantial sound than a V8 as well, seeing as it has double the cylinders.


All I'm saying is, to make it easier on PD so they don't have to record 700+ cars, just record some examples of every engine type in the game, and get a sound guru (preferably one who worked in a submarine) to tweak the sounds of particular cars so they sound identical to their real life counterparts. Now I can see some flaws in this, the sounds would be synthesized a little, but at least a V8 would sound like a V8 instead of a leaf blower. It bugs me to no end that some of the cars in the game don't sound like cars at all, they sound like insects (the GT-One) or a vacuum cleaner. (the C5-R)

 

[TheCracker]

I can't believe that people are still surprised by PD delaying release dates!

Have you learnt nothing?

 

[STINGer71]

My question is: Shouldn't we have a hard date for GT5 by then? If it is only a couple of months away at that point then I see no point in getting Prologue.

Theoretically speaking, GT5 could be released in Q4 2008 for NTSC/J, but PAL & NTSC/U could came in Q1 2009... remember GT4 release dates?

 

[FoolKiller]

Theoretically speaking, GT5 could be released in Q4 2008 for NTSC/J, but PAL & NTSC/U could came in Q1 2009... remember GT4 release dates?

I'm hoping that doesn't happen. It would seem odd after constantly saying 2008 to American and European audiences.


I guess a good question would be if we are talking calendar Q1 or a fiscal Q1. I'm not sure when Sony's fiscal year starts/ends, but that could make a difference.