Project CARS General Discussion Thread

[CAMAROBOY69]

Nice to see this will also be multi-console.

 

[Myles Prower]

A car that can only do one lap? We already have one of those, it's called a Lotus. Anything else?

Nothing Formula 1 related, if CARS expanded to JGTC then Honda would be a must

 

[PowerOFspeed]

A mix of the past and future historic Honda cars

 

[Adrianf1]

Project CARS gameplay giving a lap at american highway of California, in the first stage, with the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X at sunset, with the onboard camera.

 

[Myles Prower]

With respect alot of those cars have Honda Engines but not Honda chassis (Mclaren, Lola,
Oreca) In addition we we're dicussing classics where I pointed out the average performing Honda GP cars and the "Death trap" RA302, the Civic could make a good classic touring car

 

[DG_Silva]

That's when we come to the problem. Can SMS really defend trying to license a company for the sake of one car? The reason I said to exclude the NSX, even the JGTC car, was simply because that could be any car, whether it be a Skyline, RX-7, Supra, etc. The BTCC touring car would certainly be iconic, but not too cost just one car. However, I may be wrong, and the team may be trying to get Honda involved.

 

[R8TEDM3]

 

[Terronium-12]

I just spent the better part of 7 minutes watching the AI pilot spin a countless number of times, continually bang into (and attempt to phase through) a tire wall, floor the throttle in the kitty litter (which brings us back to spinning a countless number of times), and do a front 900 degree (or thereabouts) somersault after running into the Iron Brake Marker of Doom.

That was the best laugh I've had all day. Do not drink and drive kids.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I hope the AI improves. But at least not make it too smart and not implement any "human error"

 

[LogiForce]

I hope the AI improves. But at least not make it too smart and not implement any "human error"

I wouldn't mind having them too smart to be honest. Having the A.I. do a false start on occasion can be realistic too, and an easy place to grab as he gets a drive through penalty.

As long as it is within the realm of realistic I am fine with it. "Keep it real"

 

[DG_Silva]

All coming guys, never fear. Work is going to be completed on the physics first, then the AI will be worked on.

 

[LogiForce]

All coming guys, never fear. Work is going to be completed on the physics first, then the AI will be worked on.

I don't have any fear here. They are still working on coding the core AI structure I believe. After that is done, dialing it all in will naturally follow.


Personally I can't wait to see all the physics parts implemented. Especially the new turbo logic and active aero systems. Two pretty influential systems physics wise.
It is hard to point out much flaws anymore physics wise though. At least for me as we really are approaching a point where things get so real that we would need real life experienced drivers to comment on the in-game behaviour after they have just driven the real thing.

In any case, it is all going in high gear all of a sudden and you can really notice the puzzle pieces falling into place. Especially if you don't drive for a week or two... or more. So junior members should see the most improvement each month, whereas those on top of the daily development don't actively notice the big improvements made each month.

 

[LeMansAid]

I hope the AI improves. But at least not make it too smart and not implement any "human error"

I think of AI differently. As in, the smarter it is, the more human-like it is. As opposed to the idea that being smart makes it merely fast and/or infallible.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I think of AI differently. As in, the smarter it is, the more human-like it is. As opposed to the idea that being smart makes it merely fast and/or infallible.

But AI stands for Artificial Intelligence. If a smart AI is human-like, then it's not smart, but merely average. Smart AI means its smarter than regular intelligence.

 

[LeMansAid]

But AI stands for Artificial Intelligence. If a smart AI is human-like, then it's not smart, but merely average. Smart AI means its smarter than regular intelligence.

The term doesn't really accurately describe it's intentions though. IA (Intelligently Artificial) might be closer to describing what I believe is the goal. SMS could make the CPU controlled drivers unbeatably fast, but would that alone make it smart AI? No. Equally, they could have CPU drivers that take 5 mins to do a lap that most of us would do in 3, but could still be using incredibly smart AI. If it were smart enough to genuinely accurately replicate a human driving really badly, it would be the smartest AI we've come across.

Difficulty is easily achieved, and is not the goal. Realistic behaviour is the goal, and is not easily achieved.

 

[frivoloushobby]

I've been following PCars for awhile now. I was wondering if any of you insiders have heard whispers of a course maker or a similar equivalent?

 

[DG_Silva]

Nope, no course maker, not even support for mods on the PC either. SMS would rather have a fixed number of high quality tracks than a poorly done random track generator.

 

[Igano]

I've tried a bit of Pcars today after a long time. I have been playing for a week now Assetto Corsa and I am really hooked, so I wanted to make a comparison with Pcars. I got a fwd (focus RS) on nordschleife and the feeling of the wheel was very disappointing (in comparison to AC). I would lose traction and sometimes would not sense it at all. I gave it up very fast because it felt so strange. My wheel is a G27 and I used the default settings.

Maybe the car has very early physics? Anyone can suggest me a good car to test?

 

[Timppaq]

Haven't tried RS but many seem to like the GT3 Z4 and I quite liked the BMW GT version. Change tires to Hard / Medium / Soft Slicks. Remeber to turn up the tire force feedback and tire force on the setting menu to 100 both. Then I often also adjust even further while driving F1 -> vehicles -> FFB adjustment -> tire force multi to my liking.

Free practise starts with cold tires and time trial with pre-warmed so there's a big difference too.

There are a lot of "old" tires still out there too so pay attention to the physics forum and do a little diggin so you know your driving the "correct" tire.

 

[mister dog]

I'm curious about that also; everybody is loving AC's physics so I would be disappointed if PCARS would be the smaller brother physics wise...

 

[LeMansAid]

I've tried a bit of Pcars today after a long time. I have been playing for a week now Assetto Corsa and I am really hooked, so I wanted to make a comparison with Pcars. I got a fwd (focus RS) on nordschleife and the feeling of the wheel was very disappointing (in comparison to AC). I would lose traction and sometimes would not sense it at all. I gave it up very fast because it felt so strange. My wheel is a G27 and I used the default settings.

Maybe the car has very early physics? Anyone can suggest me a good car to test?

I feel like I remember Logiforce explaining that the ffb in PCARS is very good, but requires quite a bit of fiddling with settings to get it to that point. Have not tried PCARS myself at all though.

 

[FLX1981]

Basically the best cars atm are the GT cars, the Atoms, the Formulas and the protos. Also M1 and Capri.

The Focus is ancient in comparison with those, also for a comparison test with AC the BMW GTs surely are best suited, since they are in both games.

 

[LogiForce]

I feel like I remember Logiforce explaining that the ffb in PCARS is very good, but requires quite a bit of fiddling with settings to get it to that point. Have not tried PCARS myself at all though.

That's a long time ago though. The FFB feels good out of the box now since the changes before the holidays. Everything from the FFB comes directly from the car's geometry. Which ended up resulting in everyone including devs noticing and fixing issues with the geometry in various cars.
This also results in pure feedback from the tyre model and you really can feel everything in my opinion.

Just grab the Caterham R500 and take it out on the laser scanned Brands Hatch. A real pleasure to drive. You can feel each bump and put hole. Forcing you to try a different line than you would be used to normally.
Heck, I was away for a month and couldn't get the grin off of my face and drove many laps without getting bored at all. With the added fact that it was in free practice, so without AI. I just enjoyed the pure pleasure of driving, and in many driving styles at that... serious time attack oriented, slightly over the limit, drifting, or just playfully taking corners however I felt like.


But as Felix says, the Focus has not been touched in at least 6 to 8 months now I think. So it is definitely not a to go to car.

Personal advice:
Track: Brands Hatch GP
Cars: Caterham R500 (feel free to try Felix his car suggestions too)

 

[Igano]

I did some testing today according to what you said to me. My impressions with the following cars:

Lancer evo OK
Caterham r500? had the best feeling so far from other cars
Formula C OK
Kart 250 OK

It seems I was unlucky to my initial pick and the cars had acceptable physics (better than GT5 at least). I must note though that even best (caterham) was still behind AC (which is good in all cars). I don't know but that real feeling I get is so addicting you want to drive more and more.

I really hope SMS can match them in that department until launch (as in the rest they have the upper hand), because I really like the car and track list.

 

[LogiForce]

Jaw dropping reading your impression, Igano. Caterham R500 is still behind AC? Really?

Dear me, the cars in AC are dull to me. I can say it is mostly due to the simple and lifeless tyre model they use. It gives little to no feedback through the wheel, plus it gives you unnatural car handling as a result.
To me AC's tyres feel like oil drums that have a bit of tyre tread rubber stuck on them. Never went into setup though, but I wouldn't be surprised if the tyre pressure only change the shape of the tread surface and thus the size of the contact patch.
I am totally missing the feel and response on car handling that tyre sidewalls should give. Which is as if not more important than the tyre tread itself.
The sidewall gives you elasticity in many directions, among which...

- vertical spring action (important in curb, bump behaviour. Acts as second spring in a car)
- longitudinal twist (important in torque transfer from the drive axle to the ground)
- sideways spring (for example dampens/auto-corrects tank slapping to a degree)
- diagonal buckle (happens and can be felt mostly when there is enough forward momentum and weight on a front wheel when cornering)

All of these are important and I am missing it in AC. I know we have it in pCARS as I was one of the nagging people behind this, and maybe the reason why we ended up going with STM as the default on all cars (as that tyre model could support all this properly).
Plus we have direct FFB, so it can not feel more real than this.

I really think AC is not better than pCARS in any way. Maybe they are more sorted out as they are in Beta already, which indeed gives a more finished experience across the board (across all cars and tracks). We won't be in Beta until September if I remember correctly. Alpha should be around the Summer holidays, so June till August... ish.

One thought popped to mind. What wheel do you own currently?
Also make sure FFB is set to FFB Strength 100 and Tyre Force 100 in the game's settings menu.
I drive with the T500 as my main wheel of choice at the moment, with 100/100 in settings and driver defaults. This gives me realistic feedback. On par on what I feel in any real car, not in strength but effects wise.

In any case, we all have our own preferences. So there will always be people who like and dislike something, whether it is a sim game... a piece of sim hardware or that certain grid girl we saw at the last event we were at.

 

[JvM]

I can say it is mostly due to the simple and lifeless tyre model they use.

Opinions of the feeling are fine ofcourse. But you dont just state that their model is 'simple'. Cause you have no clue whatsoever how simple or not simple their model really is.

 

[Igano]

Jaw dropping reading your impression, Igano. Caterham R500 is still behind AC? Really?

Dear me, the cars in AC are dull to me. I can say it is mostly due to the simple and lifeless tyre model they use. It gives little to no feedback through the wheel, plus it gives you unnatural car handling as a result.
To me AC's tyres feel like oil drums that have a bit of tyre tread rubber stuck on them. Never went into setup though, but I wouldn't be surprised if the tyre pressure only change the shape of the tread surface and thus the size of the contact patch.
I am totally missing the feel and response on car handling that tyre sidewalls should give. Which is as if not more important than the tyre tread itself.
The sidewall gives you elasticity in many directions, among which...

- vertical spring action (important in curb, bump behaviour. Acts as second spring in a car)
- longitudinal twist (important in torque transfer from the drive axle to the ground)
- sideways spring (for example dampens/auto-corrects tank slapping to a degree)
- diagonal buckle (happens and can be felt mostly when there is enough forward momentum and weight on a front wheel when cornering)

All of these are important and I am missing it in AC. I know we have it in pCARS as I was one of the nagging people behind this, and maybe the reason why we ended up going with STM as the default on all cars (as that tyre model could support all this properly).
Plus we have direct FFB, so it can not feel more real than this.

I really think AC is not better than pCARS in any way. Maybe they are more sorted out as they are in Beta already, which indeed gives a more finished experience across the board (across all cars and tracks). We won't be in Beta until September if I remember correctly. Alpha should be around the Summer holidays, so June till August... ish.

One thought popped to mind. What wheel do you own currently?
Also make sure FFB is set to FFB Strength 100 and Tyre Force 100 in the game's settings menu.
I drive with the T500 as my main wheel of choice at the moment, with 100/100 in settings and driver defaults. This gives me realistic feedback. On par on what I feel in any real car, not in strength but effects wise.

In any case, we all have our own preferences. So there will always be people who like and dislike something, whether it is a sim game... a piece of sim hardware or that certain grid girl we saw at the last event we were at.

My wheel is a G27, nixxim spring modded, handbrake mod, on a BMW E36 seat. I used defaults on both games.

I can't go really technical since it's not my forte, but I can definitely judge a car by it's feel. It really helps that because my job is a car salesman and I am used to jumping on totally different cars and driving and adjusting to them fast. This way I can totally sense differences as soon as I take it on the first ride.

The feeling I get when I drive AC is the closest I have driven to reality so far, as a result when I first drove all cars I didn't need much time to adjust as things felt very natural to me. This resulted in been able to drift an M3 E30 a lot more successfully than other games, because it had logical car reactions for me. i understand that it is subjective, but for me it is the way I see and sense it. Having said that the Caterham felt good and not leaps behind AC, though having not driven one in RL. Second I would put the Lancer Evo which felt understeery and AWDy enough .

 

[Timppaq]

One thing though, using defaults in pcars will somewhat hamper the experience. Especially the tires should be picked with understanding and the ffb values should be up to 100.

I don't mean that this would change anyones opinion - but just saying that you might be missing some things without little fiddling.

------------------

One test I need to do is turn down the tire noise in AC and try to feel how it feels then (possible?), as I feel pcar sounds are greatly lacking in that department atm and for me this is a big factor in the experience. Luckily this is just a matter of time - it will get a complete overhaul later in the dev.

 

[LogiForce]

Opinions of the feeling are fine ofcourse. But you dont just state that their model is 'simple'. Cause you have no clue whatsoever how simple or not simple their model really is.

If Berney Villers from Simxperience states that their Physics model is fudged, I have a hint. If I drive it myself after having gone through gone through many tyre model iterations with pCARS development, I can make an estimation in relation to.

So maybe I should have said 'simpler than' (what we have in pCARS).
That said, I do have to add that I find AC to be the most enjoying to drive after pCARS. So its not like I completely dislike it, but the tyre model is somewhat of a let down for me who is used to something... lets just say different and possibly (and most likely) more advanced.

Lastly I want to add that I like AC better in just one way. They are more street car focused. So when I want to drive race monsters, I will grab pCARS but for most street cars I will grab AC as pCARS only has a few of them.

In any case, likes and dislikes are all because of our subjective opinions in the end.

My wheel is a G27, nixxim spring modded, handbrake mod, on a BMW E36 seat. I used defaults on both games.

I can't go really technical since it's not my forte, but I can definitely judge a car by it's feel. It really helps that because my job is a car salesman and I am used to jumping on totally different cars and driving and adjusting to them fast. This way I can totally sense differences as soon as I take it on the first ride.

The feeling I get when I drive AC is the closest I have driven to reality so far, as a result when I first drove all cars I didn't need much time to adjust as things felt very natural to me. This resulted in been able to drift an M3 E30 a lot more successfully than other games, because it had logical car reactions for me. i understand that it is subjective, but for me it is the way I see and sense it. Having said that the Caterham felt good and not leaps behind AC, though having not driven one in RL. Second I would put the Lancer Evo which felt understeery and AWDy enough .

G27. I see. Than I guess the dampening on the wheel in AC is what makes it more real, which can be added in pCARS as well in the controller settings menu. I think this is the biggest difference you are feeling. Just play with it at least to see if it improves the feel for you.

 

[Igano]

Yeah I will try tonight without the default settings and see how it compares. But I wanted first to compare with their defaults. Which would be the best settings you recommend for a G27?