Project R
- Thread starter Mr Latte
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Well just for starters, the AV Amplifers needed for the Audio & Tactile.
Just getting ready for general testing of the distrubtion box to ensure the process of taking the PS3 HDMI/X360 output and having it working via multiple amplifers PRE-OUT - MULTICHANNEL INPUT works okay. In theory it all should as planned but I need to be certain.
Just getting ready for general testing of the distrubtion box to ensure the process of taking the PS3 HDMI/X360 output and having it working via multiple amplifers PRE-OUT - MULTICHANNEL INPUT works okay. In theory it all should as planned but I need to be certain.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
The process should go as follows:
* All processing must be done prior to using MULTICHANNEL input as the inputed audio can not be altered in any way, only amplified to the speakers, subs or tactile connected.
Nothing to it really
Im going to need a stack of RCA connection cables.
- Source console - amplifer 1 - HDMI input - DSP surround mode selected
- All speaker channels ouput via PRE-OUTS
- Multiple distrubution amplifers duplicate the required channels
- All individual audio channels for speakers are connected into 31 band equalisers this includes the L/R platform subwoofers
- All LFE channels are connected into bass enchancers (dual subs / under seat sub / butkicker BKA300)
- Seat tactile for L/C/R & SL/SR channels also are connected into independant 31 band equalisers
- Wheel platfrom, pedal platform and base platform tactile units will be amplified only. If additional EQ is required it may be added.
- All speakers/subs/tactile after EQ or bass enchancement and including those tactile which bypass it are then connected into each amplifer 2,3,4 & 5 MULTICHANNEL INPUTS. The Buttkicker BKA 300 is powered by its own amplifer.
* All processing must be done prior to using MULTICHANNEL input as the inputed audio can not be altered in any way, only amplified to the speakers, subs or tactile connected.
Nothing to it really
Im going to need a stack of RCA connection cables.
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- 11
- esHorrible
Thats one hell of set up so far! Hurry it up and make it work i want to see the finished product NAO!!!!
- 638
why so many AV receivers are needed?
volume control will be a nightmare w/ so many AV receivers?
how many speakers/subs are you using??
wouldn't a 9.2 AV processor with additional power amps be enough?
anyway nice to see the progress, keep up the good work.
PS did you see ISR episode w/ 5 screens? !!!
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Hi their, the reason for so many is because I will be powering as shown a few times before a combination of at least 26 speakers/subs/tactile. Maybe even a little more. Also I wasn't certain if using PRE-OUT disabled the onboard amplification on the primary amplifier.
As it turns out it seems it doesn't disable the onboard amplification having tested PRE-OUT but so far only with 2 channels. Will be checking this with full 7 channels.
If this works then thats one amp less needed. Also I'd be tempted to then change one of the older amps to a 4th 1200ES. Volume control is not an issue as one remote operates all the identical amps. So its possible to have each set to a different volume using the volume knob and then if using the remote they all will increase/decrease in volume together.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Has your wife not left you yet?
Not yet, though she's used to previous past phases of PCs and home cinema stuff.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Not sure I understand what you mean. The audio isn't being transmitted via IR. What transmission issues you referring to?
I've not had any problems so far, with the 3 identical amps testing the remote control. If I press a command on the remote the 3 of them get the signal no different to a single amp. That part works a treat.
It could be really handy too for wanting simple mute functionality as well. Lots of testing will be done but so far things are going to plan with the multiple amps working fine with the early stereo only testing done so far. The speakers also have really good stereo imaging, while lacking bass I can understand why they were well reviewed. The multiple small drivers should be excellent for the enclosed space of the cockpit and using 7 channel audio.
I've not had any problems so far, with the 3 identical amps testing the remote control. If I press a command on the remote the 3 of them get the signal no different to a single amp. That part works a treat.
It could be really handy too for wanting simple mute functionality as well. Lots of testing will be done but so far things are going to plan with the multiple amps working fine with the early stereo only testing done so far. The speakers also have really good stereo imaging, while lacking bass I can understand why they were well reviewed. The multiple small drivers should be excellent for the enclosed space of the cockpit and using 7 channel audio.
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- 2,239
- caswellhouse
Tested and working then, i wouldnt let scoddees post rattle in your head.
Would all three amps need to be scaled in volume as it increases/ decreases? Say one amp is highs/ mids. One for lows and one tactile. Would the tactile "volume" rate be in sync with the audio volume of either other amp.
Does that make sense. Hard to explain.
Would all three amps need to be scaled in volume as it increases/ decreases? Say one amp is highs/ mids. One for lows and one tactile. Would the tactile "volume" rate be in sync with the audio volume of either other amp.
Does that make sense. Hard to explain.
- 638
lol can your wall socket provide that much juice? your electrical company is gonna love you, not sure about your neighbours though
when do you think it will be completed? seems like it is getting close and the biggest parts have been done 👍 (although I wouldn't want to be you when it comes to routing cables)
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Well their could be some issues later but I've spent a lot of time thinking this though from a pretty well experienced background in AV equipment. Each amp can of course have levels set for each channel and then it's own master volume set by hand to the desired volume. Once that's done increasing the volume 5 via remote alters each amps volume by 5 from whatever each amps master volume was set to. By using EQ also this adds more flexibility but more possible tweaking required. However that can be bypassed if wanted.
your electrical company is gonna love you, not sure about your neighbours though
when do you think it will be completed? seems like it is getting close and the biggest parts have been done 👍 (although I wouldn't want to be you when it comes to routing cables)
That was already discussed and shouldn't be an issue. Mainly as this is going in my business storeroom and 32 Amp should be okay. Completion is held back more with having available funds than work needing done or interest in completing.
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- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
Latte those remotes are programmable and have learn or teach functions I believe. Sony also utilizes more than one code for their equipment. I have not ever tried it but you might be able to utilize the codes to different remotes to control several of the recievers if it came down to it. If I recall some of the Sony IR remotes both transmit and receive signals from the receivers or basically communicate to each other. Not sure if this will help you in any way since I think you were going to use a seperate universal remote.
Any IR problems can be solved using equipment like a Xantec IR system; add a Harmony remote into the equation and there shouldn't be a problem controlling all that kit.
As the Harmony allows for different key rates one could even allow for equipment that needed the volume scaled differently.
And as you are going to be using that iPad software it should be even more flexible.
As the Harmony allows for different key rates one could even allow for equipment that needed the volume scaled differently.
And as you are going to be using that iPad software it should be even more flexible.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Right thanks, if remotes become an issue I will deal with that as said their are solutions. It wouldnt be hard to use the "iwavit device" on my phone or ipad (just plug it in and run the app) and have those act as a remote. I could program several remotes and commands all functioning from a single screen or have more advanced controls on individual screens.
Well that was the idea of getting it as it does both IR remotes and works with consoles also.
I wont have to be sitting with multiple remotes and fiddling around guys.
Volume Issues? Dont Forget These:
The Behringer 3102 Equalisers offer a large amount of control and flexibility. Currently I have 6 of these purchased.
On these I can bypass the EQ completely and decide to not alter the audio or it can be seriously tweaked with if desired.
Input volume (for each speaker) can be adjusted -15DB and upto +15DB this will be great for balancing the different channels or having one set lower/higher if needed. Each of the 31 Bands of equalisation ranging from 20Hz - 20KHz can be increased with either +6DB or +12DB or decreased -6DB or -12DB.
All speakers will have this level of individual control. The Cobra race seat uses its own 6.1 surround tactile which also has its own independant equalisers and amplification. So I can ensure settings for the speakers dont compromise the tactile or vice versa. Experimentation with these over the past year or so has let me understand benefits they can give in altering a games audio on the fly and even to an extent increasing/decreasing individual sounds within the games.
It is nuts but this should really be even by my own admission one heck of an audio setup for a cockit.
No matter how far I have looked even with professional sims nothing I have seen puts so much into audio/tactile to enchance the immersion or give such levels of control. It is indeed part fantasy and experimentation of ideas that has lead it to this extreme and as followers of this thread can read how it developed. I cant wait to have it all fully installed to properly test it all combined and working together but that is still some way off. Furthermore some issues may arise and problems that may or may not be overcome.
I find it crazy that a $20,000+ professional cockpit which has many great things in its equipment uses something like a Logitec PC speaker/sub package.
CXC Simulations...
Amazing cockpit, shame about the audio using Logitech 5 channel surround, 1x subwoofer and their models use 3x or 4x tactile units.
Project R - 7 channel surround, 5x subwoofers with (minimium) of 14x tactile units.
Well that was the idea of getting it as it does both IR remotes and works with consoles also.
I wont have to be sitting with multiple remotes and fiddling around guys.
Volume Issues? Dont Forget These:
The Behringer 3102 Equalisers offer a large amount of control and flexibility. Currently I have 6 of these purchased.
On these I can bypass the EQ completely and decide to not alter the audio or it can be seriously tweaked with if desired.
Input volume (for each speaker) can be adjusted -15DB and upto +15DB this will be great for balancing the different channels or having one set lower/higher if needed. Each of the 31 Bands of equalisation ranging from 20Hz - 20KHz can be increased with either +6DB or +12DB or decreased -6DB or -12DB.
All speakers will have this level of individual control. The Cobra race seat uses its own 6.1 surround tactile which also has its own independant equalisers and amplification. So I can ensure settings for the speakers dont compromise the tactile or vice versa. Experimentation with these over the past year or so has let me understand benefits they can give in altering a games audio on the fly and even to an extent increasing/decreasing individual sounds within the games.
It is nuts but this should really be even by my own admission one heck of an audio setup for a cockit.
No matter how far I have looked even with professional sims nothing I have seen puts so much into audio/tactile to enchance the immersion or give such levels of control. It is indeed part fantasy and experimentation of ideas that has lead it to this extreme and as followers of this thread can read how it developed. I cant wait to have it all fully installed to properly test it all combined and working together but that is still some way off. Furthermore some issues may arise and problems that may or may not be overcome.
I find it crazy that a $20,000+ professional cockpit which has many great things in its equipment uses something like a Logitec PC speaker/sub package.
CXC Simulations...
Amazing cockpit, shame about the audio using Logitech 5 channel surround, 1x subwoofer and their models use 3x or 4x tactile units.
Project R - 7 channel surround, 5x subwoofers with (minimium) of 14x tactile units.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Well glad to report with a degree of relief that their seems to be no issues whatsoever using the required DSP settings on the primary amplifer. Everything is outputting via the PRE-OUTS into the secondary amplifers MULTICHANNEL inputs as expected. Ive now tested 5.1 so 7.1 should have no issues neither. Great to now know this isnt an issue or has some technical hitch. 👍
Example:
Set different volume with the knob and the remote will adjust all together but maintain the same difference in volumes.
All Mute is simple
Example:
Set different volume with the knob and the remote will adjust all together but maintain the same difference in volumes.
All Mute is simple
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- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
I know you are in the testing phase but are you going to stack the receivers in the final build? Heat and ventilation could become an issue. I use one of these atop my Onkyo for heat removal.
http://store.antec.com/Product/cooling-media/av-cooler/0-761345-75007-3.aspx
You might be able to find these online much cheaper, I bought mine several years ago from Fry's Electronics for $40usd. It is a very quiet unit when running and has two speeds.
http://store.antec.com/Product/cooling-media/av-cooler/0-761345-75007-3.aspx
You might be able to find these online much cheaper, I bought mine several years ago from Fry's Electronics for $40usd. It is a very quiet unit when running and has two speeds.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Yeah things are just thrown together for now. Not decided yet where exactly in the room or how I will stack the equipment. Your right heat could be an issue that will need looked into although so far these amps don't seem to run that hot compared to Onkyo, maybe more like my Yamaha one at home.
Going to try and get a PS3 tested today on this configuration and then also try multiple sets of front speakers with the distrubution box thingy.
Going to try and get a PS3 tested today on this configuration and then also try multiple sets of front speakers with the distrubution box thingy.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,072
- N Ireland
Okay so more testing of the configurations.
Silly Sony
First up and I need a good SMACK for this in discovering that the Sony 1200ES and some of its bigger brother models does not allow HDMI audio to be routed through the amp. It only distributes it back out via HDMI output. Really silly of me but its a stumbling block for that generation of models of Sonys.
I seen comments on this in the past but thought it was only to do with the LPCM uncompressed audio from Blu Rays. Not like me to overlook this but thats the case.
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Mumbo Jumbo
What this means is I will be limited to using OPTICAL connection for PS3 just like Xbox 360 uses. Then outputing 5.1 from the PS3 not 7.1 audio. Of course I can still expand the audio to 7 channel with various DSP settings on the amplifer and have all the speakers getting audio.
Bit annoying but not a disaster by any means and I would maybe in the future require a 3D 1.4 capable Amplifer anyways.
In one way its not that big of a loss as Ive discovered certain DSP modes give better tactile feedback and centre channel performance more than others. "DTS Neo 6 Music", "PLIIX Game/Music" and "Multi Stereo" do seem to be the best modes on these models.
The Good News
After a lot of switching the cabling from a 7.1 configuration layout. I rewired 3 amps up and set about trying to get multiple stereo signal working. So I had the top amp getting the DVD source with stereo audio connection being output via it's PRE-OUT on the primary amplifer. This was then connected into the distrubution box. This converted the single stereo audio into multiple sets of stereo outputs. I then used two sets for this test to connect into amp 2 and amp 3's MULTICHANNEL inputs. This meant I had what were previously the "back surround" and "side surround" speakers connected as additional stereo speakers for amp 2 & 3. It worked with no hassle at all just selecting the MULTICHANNEL input on amp 2 & 3. Yippee, multiple stereo was working with no loss or aparent drop in quality/signal so this puts to bed the idea of any incompatibilities or issues in trying to run the amount of components I have planned.
Additional testing was done using the primary amps own amplifers with the PRE-OUT also connected. So "Stereo A" was set for speakers and "Stereo B" set for 2x tactile units. These were accompanied with a CENTRE channel speaker connected. No problems with DSP modes or DIRECT STEREO which means I can easily use one of the 1200ES own amplification and still use its PRE-OUTS. 👍
So basically at this point it looks like their will be no technical incompatibility issues to worry any further over. The equalisers should not pose any issues when added as they are a simple input/output. All tactile/subs/speakers will be able to work based on the original plans. I just need to see about buying a couple more additional distrubution boxes and required cables.
Breakdown:
Testing of the complete audio setup has not been done at this stage. What it does mean is that how everything will be connected regards audio is now confirmed to work as previously planned. Its a big step and relief with a weight off my shoulders.
NO PRESSURE!!!
Silly Sony
First up and I need a good SMACK for this in discovering that the Sony 1200ES and some of its bigger brother models does not allow HDMI audio to be routed through the amp. It only distributes it back out via HDMI output. Really silly of me but its a stumbling block for that generation of models of Sonys.
I seen comments on this in the past but thought it was only to do with the LPCM uncompressed audio from Blu Rays. Not like me to overlook this but thats the case.
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Mumbo Jumbo
What this means is I will be limited to using OPTICAL connection for PS3 just like Xbox 360 uses. Then outputing 5.1 from the PS3 not 7.1 audio. Of course I can still expand the audio to 7 channel with various DSP settings on the amplifer and have all the speakers getting audio.
Bit annoying but not a disaster by any means and I would maybe in the future require a 3D 1.4 capable Amplifer anyways.
In one way its not that big of a loss as Ive discovered certain DSP modes give better tactile feedback and centre channel performance more than others. "DTS Neo 6 Music", "PLIIX Game/Music" and "Multi Stereo" do seem to be the best modes on these models.
The Good News
After a lot of switching the cabling from a 7.1 configuration layout. I rewired 3 amps up and set about trying to get multiple stereo signal working. So I had the top amp getting the DVD source with stereo audio connection being output via it's PRE-OUT on the primary amplifer. This was then connected into the distrubution box. This converted the single stereo audio into multiple sets of stereo outputs. I then used two sets for this test to connect into amp 2 and amp 3's MULTICHANNEL inputs. This meant I had what were previously the "back surround" and "side surround" speakers connected as additional stereo speakers for amp 2 & 3. It worked with no hassle at all just selecting the MULTICHANNEL input on amp 2 & 3. Yippee, multiple stereo was working with no loss or aparent drop in quality/signal so this puts to bed the idea of any incompatibilities or issues in trying to run the amount of components I have planned.
Additional testing was done using the primary amps own amplifers with the PRE-OUT also connected. So "Stereo A" was set for speakers and "Stereo B" set for 2x tactile units. These were accompanied with a CENTRE channel speaker connected. No problems with DSP modes or DIRECT STEREO which means I can easily use one of the 1200ES own amplification and still use its PRE-OUTS. 👍
So basically at this point it looks like their will be no technical incompatibility issues to worry any further over. The equalisers should not pose any issues when added as they are a simple input/output. All tactile/subs/speakers will be able to work based on the original plans. I just need to see about buying a couple more additional distrubution boxes and required cables.
Breakdown:
Testing of the complete audio setup has not been done at this stage. What it does mean is that how everything will be connected regards audio is now confirmed to work as previously planned. Its a big step and relief with a weight off my shoulders.
NO PRESSURE!!!
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