- 903
- Knguyen
Some new pics:đź‘Ť
http://media.ps3.ign.com/articles/741/741368/imgs_1.html
beware, those are pornography
http://media.ps3.ign.com/articles/741/741368/imgs_1.html
beware, those are pornography
PS3 General Discussion
- Thread starter Solid Lifters
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- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
They still wont have HDMI, nor HDMI 1.3, and of course unless the actual content for the games is in 1920x1080, then all you will get is a blow-up version. After all, you can't add detail when simply scaling the native video to 1920x1080 or even 1280x720 if it doesn't have the detail to begin with. This is why HD DVD and Blu-ray look night & day better than DVD when displayed even on a 1280x720 display.
The PS3 is in a similar boat, but the huge difference is that because the PS3 games will be on Blu-ray, the games can easily be in native 1920x1080 resolution due to the disc capacity, instead of simply upscaled to 1080 for output, which would offer no added detail. Games in native 1080 HD will look much nicer than those simply scaled to 1080.
We will have to wait to be sure, but at least some of the game trailers suggest that the developers for PS3 are programming games with native 1920x1080 resolution.
BTW: For those wondering about who may win the optical HD format war, HD DVD (Toshiba) now appears they might be losing their only exclusive studio support. Insiders at Universal have been leaking rumors on AVS that they are strongly considering supporting Blu-ray as well starting later next year.
This would be the fourth studio now to drop their exclusive support for HD DVD. Should this happen, then Blu-ray will have the support from all the major studios. Blu-ray already has exclusive support from Columbia TriStar, 20th Century Fox, and Buena Vista (Disney, Miramax, Dimension, Touchstone, Pixar, etc). Adding to that, the vast majority of manufacturers that dominate the DVD market exclusively support Blu-ray.
This is likely one of the reasons why many speculated that MS didn't wait to include HD DVD drives in the XB360, and only offer it as an add-on in fear that they might get stuck with a losing format.
I really do not like that reflective piano black finish. Just one more thing to show dust and fingerprints... đź‘ŽSome new pics:đź‘Ť
http://media.ps3.ign.com/articles/741/741368/imgs_1.html
beware, those are pornography
Um.. Games created after the update (and before, if programmed with the update in mind) can indeed be rendered in full 1920x1080. Only games that natively support 720p will be upscaled (the same way they're upscaled already to 1080i). The PS3 will be doing the same thing. At this point, the only difference in 1080p between the two consoles is the HDMI cable. And HDMI doesn't matter so long as you buy a TV that supports 1080p through component, like various Westinghouse models. For those that have already bought a TV, you might be out of luck, but delaying that purchase looks like it's going to suit me well, since I'll have a much better idea of what I need the TV to do.
And Blu-Ray doesn't have much to do with the system's ability to render 1080p video. It allows them to store higher resolution textures, sure, but that doesn't equate to how the Cell/RSX renders it. It's like saying I could render higher resolution pictures out of LightWave if I had a bigger hard drive. Which you'd be hard-pressed to do, since I've rendered poster-sized print-resolution pics before.
To continue what Jedi said, all games are scaled, some up, some down. A game isn't put on a disc as a full-frame, pre-rendered FMV. The game is put on the disc as game models and textures. And then the machine processes all that info, and will scale everything to the resolution you have it set to, be that 1080p, 720p or 480i. You need processing power for 1080p gaming, not media capacity.
And, because of that, you don't need Blu-Ray to have 1080p game content. You could play PC games at that resolution, or higher, back in the day. And this all when only using CDs, let alone DVDs. Yes, you get more space for more game models, higher detail models, and high-res textures using Blu-Ray's extra capacity. But, the resolution that a game is rendered at is not dependent on the amount of data the media it comes on allows. It depends on the machine doing the processing of that data.
The big benefit that Blu-Ray has for gaming is just the sheer amount of data it will allow to be in a game. Take a game like GRAW. Instead of seeing that same batch of 8-10 "random" cars along the road as you play, you could have models for 25-30 or so.
Or, a game like Tiger Woods. Given the time for the devs to model them, you could have 30+ courses to play, instead of 12. Or, the entire top-125 on the PGA tour modeled for play, instead of like 20 players.
Oh, and obviously games like FF and their 248hrs of FMV they like to use. That is, if devs still use FMV very much, what with the trend towards just doing high-res "in-game" cut scenes. Ether way, those are a couple things that Blu-Ray will really pay off for using its extra capacity. But, the resolution the game comes out of the machine rendered at isn't dependent on capacity.
CT
- 2,061
Duck are you just LOOKING for things negative to post? Or what?
IT seems to me, as though you are desperately trying to fill the void Mr Deap left...
In all seriousness, the article you posted was from MAY.
Since then, the controller has gained some weight, a new plastic has been used, and the triggers have gained a substantial amount of "resistance" to their analog control.
PLEASE read before you post, instead of simply saying "oh, looky! it's negative press time!!".
IT seems to me, as though you are desperately trying to fill the void Mr Deap left...
In all seriousness, the article you posted was from MAY.
Since then, the controller has gained some weight, a new plastic has been used, and the triggers have gained a substantial amount of "resistance" to their analog control.
PLEASE read before you post, instead of simply saying "oh, looky! it's negative press time!!".
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All you had to mention where the article was posted. Joystiq are notorious for being doucebag idiots who couldn't praise a Sony product or get the facts correct if they were paid to.
- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
Jedi & CT,
Thanks for the correction, my mistake was thinking in terms of video.
It does bring up an interesting topic though and that is how much of these so-called HD games for either format will be rendered fully in 1920x1080. If you look at GT4 for instance, even though it can output 1920x1080 (interlaced), most, if not all of the game (excluding photos) is clearly not rendered in 1920x1080. Instead it looks very much like it is only scaling up the rendered images to output 1080i.
Does anyone familar with game development know if there is a resource, or a labeling system that will reveal how much of a game is actually rendered in 1920x1080? I know it may not seem improtant now as there aren't that many with 1920x1080 displays, but I can see how this might be a useful resource for those that do, and certainly as the popularity of 1080 displays increase.
Thanks!
Thanks for the correction, my mistake was thinking in terms of video.
It does bring up an interesting topic though and that is how much of these so-called HD games for either format will be rendered fully in 1920x1080. If you look at GT4 for instance, even though it can output 1920x1080 (interlaced), most, if not all of the game (excluding photos) is clearly not rendered in 1920x1080. Instead it looks very much like it is only scaling up the rendered images to output 1080i.
Does anyone familar with game development know if there is a resource, or a labeling system that will reveal how much of a game is actually rendered in 1920x1080? I know it may not seem improtant now as there aren't that many with 1920x1080 displays, but I can see how this might be a useful resource for those that do, and certainly as the popularity of 1080 displays increase.
Thanks!
- 2,061
I apologize, I'm getting out of hand. But honestly, I think we could do without the sloppy negative press posting, as none of it really holds any ground what so ever.
- 40,740
Do you mean how many games are rendered in 1920*1080 or what portions of individual games are renderd in 1920*1080?
As I understand it, GT4 was not actually "full" 1920x1080. Because it was interlaced, it was effectively rendering only 540 lines per 1/60th of a second, and I believe it's horizontal resolution was also choked down quite a bit (something like 900x1080). Vertical resolution is more important to the clarity of an image (due to the way TVs work, I dunno, but I've seen it), so they could get away with it in a sense, although it did yield the extra aliasing you mentioned because of how far they had to horizontally stretch the image.
As for specific games, I'm not sure. I know GTHD (at least the GT4 "Classic" version) is full-bore 1920x1080x60p. I don't know if the "Premium" version is actually running that way, though. And while Sony has been touting the PS3's 1080p output quite a bit, a majority of titles, especially the "big" ones like Motorstorm, are displaying at only 720p. I thought I heard that Resistance was also 720p, but the screens I just looked at on IGN are 1080. Or am I thinking of Lair?
All mud-slinging aside, 1080p is still more than double the pixels of 720p (that's simple math, look it up). And that will be a hit on performance, I don't care who the developer is. I think that's why a lot of developers are downplaying 1080p. 720p isn't really that much worse, and if developers can make a better-looking game at 720 than they could at 1080, then that's the way they should go.
Don't get me wrong, though.. when I finally upgrade, the HDTV I buy will be 1080p. Future-proofing and all.
Ok, I'll try to hold back anything sloppy or biased or any crap like that (like what I just posted), but when it comes to serious negative news, like the PS3 delay in Europe, or if most PS3s have overheating problems (not that I'm saying it will happen), or other legit concerns, then I'm still going to post it up. Speaking of news...
Ted Price's IGN Blog
http://blogs.ign.com/Comments.aspx?blog=Ted-Insomniac&entryid=34235
No prob. I kinda thought that might have been what you were thinking.Jedi & CT,
Thanks for the correction, my mistake was thinking in terms of video.
I don't know officially, but I'd venture to say that we won't see any fully rendered-at-1080p games, on either system, for a while. All PR blather aside, I do think what the MS representative said in that earlier post is probably correct. I would bet that most games coming out for a good while will be internally rendered at 720p, and then just scaled up or down to your selected resolution. Then, given time to extract more power from the system, we might start seeing natively rendered 1080p games.
I guess thats my skepticism with the whole "Native 1080p" thing. I just have a hard time believing that this early in the systems lifespan we are ALREADY getting full 1080p games. Yes, the power is most certainly there with the PS3. But, for games to be maxing that out already is just seems a bit much to me.
You also have to wonder how much of a hurry the devs are to get that anyway, what with the relative newness of 1080p sets. They are out there, and a good number of people are buying them. But that number is easily overshadowed by the number of people owning 720p or 1080i sets.
I could be totally wrong here too. There could be plenty of PS3 games coming at launch that are being fully rendered at 1080p, and I just didn't read it. But, either way, I don't really care. My LCD panel only shows 1366x768 anyway, so I'm going to be using 720p for my output res. Some day 1080p. Some day you will be mine.
CT
- 903
- Knguyen
- 5,051
- Labounti
Yes the cell demo is amazing, reguardless of any of it is true or not its still cool and very professional.
- 2,061
As far as I know, it is almost impossible to render half of an onscreen image, or it's components, at a different resolution in comparison to the other half...the set would not properly display, if at all.
If it's running in 1080p, and not upscaled, then it's rendered, completely, in 1080p.
And it's not hard to believe. Konami already has a 1080p beta of MGS4, however, I honestly don't think they'll use it.
Yea, you can't help but get real fired up for the thing when you see PR stuff like that.
Its like every time I watch Steve Jobs and his Apple presentations. As a Mac user, I tell myself every time he does one "Don't listen to him, you don't really need it" when they show new stuff. But, the way they present it, just like that PS3 site does, you almost get the feeling like you are totally out of the loop if you DON'T get it.
Gotta love PR, those sneaky bastards.
CT
- 532
- Vitoria - ES
- GTBRASIL
awesome! đź‘Ť CELL = GOD at least from the video thats what it seemed like.
I don't follow you there. Try that again, with more words, because you totally lost me.
That part I don't question, because that is what rendering means. But, what we are suggesting is that, much like the 360 does, some or all of the game so far are just being rendered at 720p internally, and then that image is being upscaled to a 1080p output. Scaling to a 1080p image is much easier to process than a rendered 1080p image.
If I remember reading correctly, wasn't there a bunch of talk about this with PGR3 when the 360 first launched?? It was internally rendering the game at some slightly lower res, like 1024x576 or something like that. Then, after being rendered, the ATI Xilleon output engine in the 360 would either scale that image UP to 720p or 1080i, or DOWN to 480i or 480p, to be output.
The same is what we are guessing is happening with these early games on the PS3. Render them much easier at 720p, and then let the output engine scale that up to 1080p, if by chance you have a 1080p set, and that is your desired res.
Again, I don't doubt that down the road there will be games rendering at full 1080p. I just don't think we are going to be seeing them for a while. And, given that MGS isn't scheduled to be released any time soon, thats kind of what I'm getting at. I have no doubt that the graphical power is there, and that the big devs will tap into it. I just don't think games are going to tap it quite this early.
Think how long it took games to go from 480i to 480p on the later versions of the PS2. Even thought the PS2 was updated fairly early in its lifespan for progressive output, it wasn't for some time before the developers were able to take advantage of that 480p output. And then, close to the end of the life cycle, we got GT4 and its kind-of-1080i output. I don't doubt we will get 1080p rendered games. But, I doubt they will be at launch, maybe not even the first full year.
CT
- 2,061
^^^ Trust when I say all the PS3 games coming out at launch that work with 1080p are being rendered at 1080p, not upscaled.
I hate to sound like a broken record, because I said something like this before, but why is it that I should just "Trust You" on this??
If you have some official statements somewhere that you can show me, or anything like that, proving that the games are TRUELY being rendered at 1080p, then let me know. Because, everything that I know about gaming graphics and hardware tells me that 1080p is no small feat. And, I just don't see the hardware hitting that peak right from the get-go.
Again, if you have something you can show me where the devs or whatever have said that the games are truely being rendered at 1080p, I'm all for it. I mean, it matters very little to me either way, because my TV only does 720p. But, I'd just kind of like to know to satisfy my suspicions.
CT
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- Nigel Fox
Virtua Fighter and Virtua Tennis are being done natively in 1080p, although they aren't as activity intensive as other games such as Gran Turismo.
But, Gran Turismo HD is being done natively in 1080p as well, though coming out in summer 2007 at the earliest.
According to the producer of Lair, it's being done natively at 1080p, which is very activity intensive.
If you go browse some boards such as the ps3land.com forums, there's a list of the PS3 1080p games.
But, Gran Turismo HD is being done natively in 1080p as well, though coming out in summer 2007 at the earliest.
According to the producer of Lair, it's being done natively at 1080p, which is very activity intensive.
If you go browse some boards such as the ps3land.com forums, there's a list of the PS3 1080p games.
But, like we were talking about, none of those games are coming out for some time. Down the road?? Sure. But, at launch, or even within the first 6 months or so?? I doubt it, personally. But again, if anyone has anything official, fire up that link.
CT
Browsing over to www.ps3land.com as suggested by Tenacious, I came across this quote from Ted Price, of Insomniac Games (Resistance : Fall of Man)...
And, that is basically my exact thinking on this subject. A game internally rendered at 720p is MUCH easier to achieve than a fully 1080p rendered version. Given more time, when the PS3 is being better optimized, many devs will surely find ways to accomplish this.
And, like he said there, and I mentioned earlier, with the very small amount of 1080p sets out there right now, it just isn't a feature that many people would notice anyway. But, he also says, as we were saying, down the road rendered 1080p will be there.
CT
http://www.ps3land.com/article-877.phpTed Price
And, that is basically my exact thinking on this subject. A game internally rendered at 720p is MUCH easier to achieve than a fully 1080p rendered version. Given more time, when the PS3 is being better optimized, many devs will surely find ways to accomplish this.
And, like he said there, and I mentioned earlier, with the very small amount of 1080p sets out there right now, it just isn't a feature that many people would notice anyway. But, he also says, as we were saying, down the road rendered 1080p will be there.
CT
- 40,740
I've read that Virtua Fighter 5 will be done in 720p.
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This makes a lot of sense, but I'd love to see more 1080p stuff.. so I hope they don't wait too long.
BTW: I am appreciating reading all this info on game rendering resolution. My knowledge base is in film, video and the equipment needed to display them accurately... I am absolutely ignorant when it comes to knowing what is involved in programming games and translating those programs into a video signal.
All I know from my limited game experience (primarlily I only play aircombat and driving simulators), is that during gameplay I can see noticeably varying degrees in the amount of detail resolution... thus I assumed this meant that the game rendered at different resolutions depending on what you are doing in the game... but of course at the end, the video processor then scales everything to either a fixed resolution, or like GT4, to the resolution you select in the options menu.
Using GT4 as an example... the detail resolution I see when using 1080i output on a 1920x1080 display (projector w/98" screen @ 1:2 DW) varries depending on what I am doing in the game, and in some cases by quite a lot... this is what led me to believe that the native resolution prior to scaling must vary depending on what you are doing in the game.... but again, I must claim ignorance as I have no clue what these complex game programs are doing in regards to graphics.
BTW: That www.playb3yond.com presentation is really well done... Thanks for the link kenji!
Yes its marketing and totally biased, but was well done just the same. đź‘Ť
I'll have to check it again later to see what they do for the "High Definition" chapter as it says it is still under construction.
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Sony are looking and even insisting game developers use native, and only native, 1080p for their games. So far, two big developers have been asked to do so. PD (GTHD and GT5) and Konami (MGS4).
Sony desperately want to use their "Full HD 1080" label on the game box. Plus, a supply of games that look graphically better than any other XBox360 game which is stuck at standard def enhanced to 720.
"Full HD 1080" or native 1080p games for the PS3 are coming. Some, soon. In the future, I wont be surprised if most games for the PS3 are Full HD 1080.
Really, this is basic knowledge so there's no need to act snippy about claims of native 1080p to anyone.
Understood. And, I didn't want that to sound like I was trying to knock him down a peg or anything like that. I just have a hard time when some random person on a message board tells me to "just trust them" with things like this. I shouldn't have to "trust them" if they have actual facts to back up things they claim are true.Jeremy is a tech savvy member who has gained the respect of many, when it comes to the technical area of PS3, Xbox 360 and their games. I would cut him some slack. I'm not trying to be rude, or telling you anything. Just a input.
I mean, if I came in here, and told you to "trust me" that my WRX can go 175mph (which it can't, by the way), what would you say?? Hopefully, you'd tell me to prove it. And, thats all I asked of JR. I didn't mean that to sound harping or condescending. But, I don't "just trust" people on the internet.
Also, not to toot my own horn, so to speak, but I'm not new to this area of interest. I own almost every system from the NES forward. I'm very into games, the technology behind the consoles, and the development that goes into all of it. I am in no way an expert, but I'm not a spring chicken when it comes to this stuff.
CT
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