Real Guns

[a6m5]

I didn't realize barrels wore out that fast. Is this unique to rifles, mainly because of accuracy?

On the heavy vs light barrels, I'm gonna have to look when I go to the gun store or gun show next. Thanks for heads up on that. Very good to know. 👍

Edit: Yeah, I think Savage's look fine, too.

 

[Michael88]

I didn't realize barrels wore out that fast. Is this unique to rifles, mainly because of accuracy?

Wear a rifle barrel out means instead of shooting 1 minute of angle or under it will shoot 2-3 moa or more and accuracy gets worse really quick.

Lets compare a pistol round and a rifle round.
Pistol rounds have relatively large calibers and small powder charges, its almost impossible to wear out a pistol barrel, with rifle cartridges its the opposite. For example a .45ACP (Pistol) has a .45 diameter 230 grain projectile and holds about 10 grains of powder, velocity is around 850 feet per second, the .300 Winchester Magnum has loads up to 84 grains of powder and a .30 diameter 200 grain bullet with velocities up to 3200 feet per second - and creates MUCH MUCH more pressure. As always, power comes with a price.

Because there is so much hot and burning high pressure powder forced down a small diameter barrel its hard on the steel, Imagine the powder like burning hot sand traveling at several thousand feet per second, its literally sandblasting the rifling and especially the barrel throat (Where the bullet first contacts the rifling, thats right after the chamber) When the throat is worn out it doesn't have sharp rifling anymore, it looks ''frosted'' and the barrel is shot out.

Also, if you shoot the rifle really fast the friction the bullet creates when it gets squished down the barrel makes it hot, really hot. The hotter a barrel gets the easier it is to wear it out, because the steel gets softer.
So if you shoot a rifle with a hot caliber really fast it will wear out the barrel in no time at all. Thats why you shouldn't shoot 50 round in 10 minutes like a madman with a high powered rifle, you can, but its not good for the barrel life, when the barrel gets too hot to touch wait a bit until it cools down. Shooting a hot barrel is not good for accuracy either, a hot barrel doesn't shoot as good as a cold barrel, and there is also hot air blurring the sights)

As example, the .300 Remington Ultra Magnum has an incredible powder charge up to 115 grains with a comparatively small .308 diameter bullet, under normal use the rifle barrel wears out after about 450 to 500 rounds! If you shoot it with a hot barrel it can be as low as 300 rounds or less! Those rounds are called ''overbore''. The .308 has the same diameter bullet but its powder charge is only around 42-44 grains and thus its not as fast and powerful as the 300 RUM.
Its the caliber and powder weight ratio that determines the barrel life.

But don't let these numbers scare you, barrel life varies a lot depending on the chambering, like I said, the .308 is rather mild multi purpose round good for 6000 to 12000 rounds until accuracy starts to decrease. Hot stuff like 300's or 338's is in the 500-1500 area. Power comes with a price.

A special case is the chrome lined barrel. Military weapons usually have chrome lined barrels because the chrome finish inside makes it very rust resistant and increases the barrel life, it wont wear out as quickly as a standard steel barrel, especially when shot hot. Sounds good huh? But the downside is its not so accurate because the rifling isn't as sharp as the rifling from standard barrels, thats why its not found on precision rifles, but they're great for automatic rifles and especially machineguns. We're talking about a little more than MOA accuracy. A 308 chrome lined barrel has a life of about 20-25k rounds.

*edit* : Spelling

 

[Omnis]

So I was looking at some lefty bolt-action rifles. The question is: .223 or .308? Ammo prices on ammoman are pretty much the same, I guess. What does the crowd here think?

And is that .22 pellet conversion thing really legit for punching paper with a .223 system?

 

[a6m5]

Wear a rifle barrel out means instead of shooting 1 minute of angle or under it will shoot 2-3 moa or more and accuracy gets worse really quick.

Lets compare a pistol round and a rifle round.
Pistol rounds have relatively large calibers and small powder charges, its almost impossible to wear out a pistol barrel, with rifle cartridges its the opposite. For example a .45ACP (Pistol) has a .45 diameter 230 grain projectile and holds about 10 grains of powder, velocity is around 850 feet per second, the .300 Winchester Magnum has loads up to 84 grains of powder and a .30 diameter 200 grain bullet with velocities up to 3200 feet per second - and creates MUCH MUCH more pressure. As always, power comes with a price.

Because there is so much hot and burning high pressure powder forced down a small diameter barrel its hard on the steel, Imagine the powder like burning hot sand traveling at several thousand feet per second, its literally sandblasting the rifling and especially the barrel throat (Where the bullet first contacts the rifling, thats right after the chamber) When the throat is worn out it doesn't have sharp rifling anymore, it looks ''frosted'' and the barrel is shot out.

Also, if you shoot the rifle really fast the friction the bullet creates when it gets squished down the barrel makes it hot, really hot. The hotter a barrel gets the easier it is to wear it out, because the steel gets softer.
So if you shoot a rifle with a hot caliber really fast it will wear out the barrel in no time at all. Thats why you shouldn't shoot 50 round in 10 minutes like a madman with a high powered rifle, you can, but its not good for the barrel life, when the barrel gets too hot to touch wait a bit until it cools down. Shooting a hot barrel is not good for accuracy either, a hot barrel doesn't shoot as good as a cold barrel, and there is also hot air blurring the sights)

As example, the .300 Remington Ultra Magnum has an incredible powder charge up to 115 grains with a comparatively small .308 diameter bullet, under normal use the rifle barrel wears out after about 450 to 500 rounds! If you shoot it with a hot barrel it can be as low as 300 rounds or less! Those rounds are called ''overbore''. The .308 has the same diameter bullet but its powder charge is only around 42-44 grains and thus its not as fast and powerful as the 300 RUM.
Its the caliber and powder weight ratio that determines the barrel life.

But don't let these numbers scare you, barrel life varies a lot depending on the chambering, like I said, the .308 is rather mild multi purpose round good for 6000 to 12000 rounds until accuracy starts to decrease. Hot stuff like 300's or 338's is in the 500-1500 area. Power comes with a price.

A special case is the chrome lined barrel. Military weapons usually have chrome lined barrels because the chrome finish inside makes it very rust resistant and increases the barrel life, it wont wear out as quickly as a standard steel barrel, especially when shot hot. Sounds good huh? But the downside is its not so accurate because the rifling isn't as sharp as the rifling from standard barrels, thats why its not found on precision rifles, but they're great for automatic rifles and especially machineguns. We're talking about a little more than MOA accuracy. A 308 chrome lined barrel has a life of about 20-25k rounds.

*edit* : Spelling

Boy, that is good to know! I had zero knowledge on the life expectancy of the barrels, so I really appreciate the detailed explanation. 👍 Cool barrel being the key, that one is a really good advice.

So I was looking at some lefty bolt-action rifles. The question is: .223 or .308? Ammo prices on ammoman are pretty much the same, I guess. What does the crowd here think?

And is that .22 pellet conversion thing really legit for punching paper with a .223 system?

I'm looking at either .308 or .30-06, because not only are they affordable to shoot, they are powerful enough rounds to take down larger game(not that I'll be hunting). They also have very good range.

.223(5.56x45mm) has similar range, according to wikipedia(check out the chart on there), but from what I understand, they would not have the take down power, especially at distance.

I am a complete noob at this though. If Michael, Solid Lifters, somebody like that says "WRONG!" in the next post, I'd go with what they have to say personally.

As for the second question, is that the .22LR-to-.223 conversion I've heard about on .22LR AR15's?

How did you go from looking at carry handgun to a bolt action?

 

[Omnis]

I'm going to CC my rifle. I'll just tuck it under my shorts.

 

[Michael88]

I'm looking at either .308 or .30-06, because not only are they affordable to shoot, they are powerful enough rounds to take down larger game(not that I'll be hunting).

I suggest you take the 308! Its a military round so it wont disappear anytime soon, also, the .30-06 is only a tiny bit more powerful than the .308 but its more expensive, its longer then the .308 and needs a long action. The .308 uses the short action which makes the rifle more compact. Long actions are .30-06 and up for Magnum cartridges etc. Short action is stuff up to .308 including .223 etc.

but from what I understand, they would not have the take down power, especially at distance.

.223 or 5.56x45 is a tiny cartridge that *can* shoot long ranges (NOT when its a windy day) but its only really effective at close ranges, it needs velocity to be deadly and because of its size it runs out of steam quick. (200yds)
Because the .223 is so small its designed to jaw, fragment and tumble, also to create a wound larger than the caliber itself you need velocities in excess of 2200-2400 feet per second and more - when such a fast projectile hits the body it pushes tissue, blood etc. so quickly aside that organs and arteries rupture from the pressure even if they weren't directly hit by the projectile itself. Thats called the ''temporary wound channel''.
Add a bone and bone fragments traveling as fast as the projectile through the body and you get a horrible mess that will stop the target immediately. (Sounds painful, huh?)
Its an area effect of a few inches around the wound channel and totally depends on the velocity of the bullet - I've seen funnel-shaped wound channels on game that had exit wounds the size of a fist.
Slow bullets don't do that, they just punch clean caliber-sized holes and a clean 5.56mm hole through your guts or lungs when your high on adrenaline wont immediately put you out of the fight. Thats why slower cartridges need hollow points etc. and other expanding projectiles to do more damage.

If you have a tough stomach I can PM you a documented case of a .223 gunshot wound to the leg, (Accident) quite an eye opener, and graphic too.

 

[Omnis]

Yep, I'm familiar with the leg shot. I'm more concerned with the economics of the rounds rather than what I can kill from a kilometer away. I'd like to hit stuff from that far though. There's no big game in Florida, and I'd rather go to the supermarket. It'd likely be a paper-puncher fun gun.

 

[a6m5]

I'm sure .223 is cheaper, but I don't believe neither .223 or .308 are really pricey in the U.S. My recommendation would be .308, because it will do what .223 + more for slightly higher price. At first, if you are just gonna fool around with it(100 meters or so), if might be enough, but if you get interested in shooting at longer distance, you don't have to worry about buying another rifle, or having to own two rifles for one job or purpose.

I did think .308 would be better over .30-06, because of .308 being basically same thing as the NATO 7.62x51mm. Locally, I've been told that both .308 & .30-06 are either same or similarly priced. But short bolt action & potentially better availability of .308 really do make sense. 👍

So Michael, you are saying that .223 can be very damaging at closer range, but not at longer distance? I'm not considering .223, but I just want to make sure I understood correctly.

I've also heard about the leg shot, but never seen the pic. PM me that when you get a chance please. Thanks!

I'm going to CC my rifle. I'll just tuck it under my shorts.

Right next to your shinai?

 

[Brett]

If you have a tough stomach I can PM you a documented case of a .223 gunshot wound to the leg, (Accident) quite an eye opener, and graphic too.

I just looked it up. Looks like a flesh wounds.

 

[Omnis]

That was only from across the street though. Poor guy. I wonder if they had to amputate it-- sucks that he got shot by a drunk pissed off cop.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Reminds me of .50BMG hammer pics I posted about a while back. The .223 has a lot of energy when hit at close ranges. I also have the pics of the dead from a mexican shoot out near the mexican Arizona border. One guy was hit just above the left temple and the back of his head was gone along with his brain. Talk about graphic!

On a lighter note, did anybody notice the blanks being used on the SAW in the Battlefield 3 commercial? It's no wonder the gun doesn't kill in the game!

 

[Michael88]

So Michael, you are saying that .223 can be very damaging at closer range, but not at longer distance? I'm not considering .223, but I just want to make sure I understood correctly.

Yes, the .223 has more velocity and most importantly its lightweight bullet design allows it to jaw, fragment and do other nasty tricks at close range, at longer ranges it looses this ability though and gets a very weak round.
The .308 is a tad slower, much heavier more stable round, it doesn't create quite such a mess like the .223 (Unless it hits a bone), it doesn't fragment as easily but its deadly at far longer ranges than the .223 and it also shoots through light walls (brick walls!), big trees and other obstacles, thats why its a very useful military cartridge. From a military perspective the .223 is a pure short distance anti personnel round, the .308 is a long range multi purpose round with anti vehicle and anti cover abilities.

Also if you ever intend to hunt something other than small game the .223 is completely useless on bigger game, it has very little penetration and its very likely that the round gets stopped by tough bones before it even reaches the animals vitals.

*edit* Forgot to mention I'm strictly talking about FMJ projectiles here, you can have a .308 that explodes like a grenade on impact if you choose one of the more reactive hunting bullets. A hollow point .308 will explode and fragment when it hits something.

 

[a6m5]

*edit* Forgot to mention I'm strictly talking about FMJ projectiles here, you can have a .308 that explodes like a grenade on impact if you choose one of the more reactive hunting bullets. A hollow point .308 will explode and fragment when it hits something.

To be quite honest, I never even thought about the hollow point .308 before. What are they used for? Short range engagements?

I'm not gonna lie, FMJ's ability to shoot through obstacles is very cool.

Edit: Forgot to comment on the pictures. Yeah, I think I've seen that before. This was accidental shooting? I do feel very sorry for the guy.....

 

[Solid Lifters]

To be quite honest, I never even thought about the hollow point .308 before. What are they used for? Short range engagements?

Hunting and personal defense. Varmint hunters can get 'explosive' tips that fragment very easy. Used for coyote hunting where preserving the hide is very important.

I'm not gonna lie, FMJ's ability to shoot through obstacles is very cool.

You want to use steel core ammo for penetrating through objects. Gun shows are your best bet for those.

 

[Omnis]

OK, so, .223 or .308 then? Which do I pick?

I also saw that Savage makes a rifle for police that uses 7.62x39. Ammoman has that stuff for supercheap. But I might as well get an AK or Saiga.

 

[a6m5]

You want to use steel core ammo for penetrating through objects. Gun shows are your best bet for those.

Steel core sounds very dangerous. Only in America. I assume they are expensive though, huh?

OK, so, .223 or .308 then? Which do I pick?

I also saw that Savage makes a rifle for police that uses 7.62x39. Ammoman has that stuff for supercheap. But I might as well get an AK or Saiga.

I vote .223 for assault rifle, except I do love AK. Saiga has good prices, and they advertise AK-based reliability, but I don't know much about them.

Bolt action, .308 or comparable for sure.

 

[Solid Lifters]

OK, so, .223 or .308 then? Which do I pick?

I also saw that Savage makes a rifle for police that uses 7.62x39. Ammoman has that stuff for supercheap. But I might as well get an AK or Saiga.

If you know you're never going to hunt, because hunting mid-size game is illegal with a .22 caliber firearm, I'd get the .223 for sure. It's cheaper, more accurate and has a lot less recoil. However, .308 is very accurate and can shoot longer distance a lot more accurately.

Steel core sounds very dangerous. Only in America. I assume they are expensive though, huh?

Military surplus stuff is reasonably priced, but yes they do cost more than standard lead core. It's worth a few boxes to play with.

 

[Suum Cuique]

I'm not really into guns, but I fired a few assorted weapons at a range in Cambodia a few years ago. I declined the chance to blow up a cow with an RPG, I had visions of the rocket just falling out of the tube and exploding at my feet.

 

[Jedi2016]

Nah, that never happens.

 

[Michael88]

I think this ammo manufacturer knows something we don't...

Hornady ZombieMax Ammunition for the zombie apocalypse

Awesome!

 

[Solid Lifters]

I already posted these a few weeks ago. I don't know if they're serious, or not. I hope so because the idea is very clever. I like the color of the tip, too. Better than red, like the ones they have now.

 

[a6m5]

I think this ammo manufacturer knows something we don't...

Hornady ZombieMax Ammunition for the zombie apocalypse

Awesome!

Awesome video. Hilarious. 👍 I've seen this online, and I still don't know what they are getting at. Are they just regular target ammo?

Just few days ago, I received an email from where I buy random tactical gear from(police supply store). It featured zombie pictures, and link to this:
http://www.ombexpress.com//c-302-zombie-apocalypse-preparation.aspx#Filter=[Sort=4*ava=0]

I don't know what's gotten into them. Maybe an Halloween thing.

Edit:

I already posted these a few weeks ago. I don't know if they're serious, or not. I hope so because the idea is very clever. I like the color of the tip, too. Better than red, like the ones they have now.

I was wondering where I saw it! 💡

 

[Michael88]

Are they just regular target ammo?

Not really, its actually ammo from their regular ''defense'' product line, hollow points but with a lime green synthetic tip (for increased aerodynamics).
Its still kind of cool though, the perfect Christmas gift for gun enthusiasts.

I just wish there was .357 & .44mag zombie ammo.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Not really, its actually ammo from their regular ''defense'' product line, hollow points but with a lime green synthetic tip (for increased aerodynamics).

Actually, the polymer tip is mostly used for even and proper expansion of the bullet. Without it, the hollow point could get plugged up and not expand the bullet.

I remember the cases were once black, but have since changed to silver-nickle. The reason why was tactical shooters couldn't see the ammo in low-light conditions. Also, checking the chamber was more difficult, too.

I just wish there was .357 & .44mag zombie ammo.

Not that popular for personal defense, these days. Most people carry 9mm, .38 Special and .45ACP. And .44mag is more of a hunting caliber and this ammo was made for bipeds, not quadrupeds.

 

[Michael88]

Not that popular for personal defense, these days. Most people carry 9mm, .38 Special and .45ACP. And .44mag is more of a hunting caliber and this ammo was made for bipeds, not quadrupeds.

But it would be perfect ammo for my zombie slayer .44mag lever action - a Lever action is a vital part of zombie killing arsenal, with 300 grainers + a hefty load they leave the barrel at 1700 fp/s, that has more punch than any 30-30! It also holds 12+1 instead of 6+1, thats very important when hordes of uneasy dead attack you.

And using your argument - nobody wants to kill zombies with a 380!

 

[a6m5]

Bah. Everybody knows that most zombie heads are blown off with a 12-gauge.

Edit: My bad:

12 Ga 00 Buckshot Z-MAX™

 

[a6m5]

I've been pricing ammo, while shopping(only in America....). It's gone up, last few months. 9mm UMC Megapack(250 rounds), I stocked up at $51.99 I think? Now, it's $59.99. Winchester's budget hollow point's gone from $18 to I think $22~23. Good thing I don't need them right now, I got plenty of both. I'm loaded on all three calibers I shoot(9mm, 12-Gauge, .22LR). I have bought some 12-Gauge, which hasn't gone up that much. 9mm, I think I'm gonna wait until next gun show I attend. .22LR's still cheap.

On my rifle search, I think I might get the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle. It'll be next year, I also want to handle them first, but it's available 10-round magazine, and iron-sights makes the rifle very attractive to me. I might get the rifle, then worry about adding the scope(in the rear) & XS rail later.

I don't want concealed permit, but lately, I've been thinking that it would be cool if I could carry a Glock in my car. I've been wanting this:



I could just carry this thing in my pocket!.............. with a permit.

And before I forget, I wanted to share a link to OutdoorsTrader.com

Those of you in America are familiar with the free Craig's List classified ads(website). Unfortunately, in my area, there are communists who flag anything related to firearms for removal. Well, my coworker found OutdoorsTrader.com, which is supposedly a nationwide free gun classifieds. I checked it out real quick and there are bunch of ads in my area. Guy who told me about the site, he says that there was even $10 ammo can some army surplus vendor was posting(ten bucks is pretty decent price around these parts). I hope you guys check it out!

 

[Time_Attack]

OK, so, .223 or .308 then? Which do I pick?

6.8mm spc, maybe 6.5mm grendel?

 

[Michael88]

@ a6m5

Just curious, have you thought about getting an FN-FAL rifle? A good FAL costs exactly as much as the gunsite scout, it comes with equally good open sights, a 20 round magazine, its very accurate, too. And its in .308.
I don't own one but was allowed to shoot one back in my service time, what a superb rifle, one heavy piece of metal to hump around but the amazing thing was the recoil - it didn't have any! Its shot 7.62x51 but the sights hardly jumped off the target during firing, very quick double and triple-taps were possible, the action absorbed all the recoil.
Accuracy was good too, made 50mm groups at 100yrds with open sights, its very easy to scope one so 30mm groups should be possible. One badass rifle.

I'm just telling you this because you shouldn't get lost in details, there are many other good rifles out there, not just the gunsite.

Another point is, who knows how long these rifles are available, maybe there will be another assault rifle ban? Better get one now.

You could build something as evil looking as this:

The FAL is currently made in the US by DSA. Their commercial:

 

[Kievit]

^I can only echo what you said. I shot the FAL with iron sights @ 100m a few days ago and was pretty surpriced. About ~100mm groups which I don't think is too bad considering I don't shoot a lot at all. Would've been a bit better if I didn't put up my cards so close to eachother lol, missed a bit of contrast.