Real Guns

[HUNT247]

I'm a hunter gun owner, I have a few rifles, shotguns & bows all for hunting purposes, I love the outdoors.

 

[Zenith]

On SMG's, Assault Rifles, Machine Guns, etc.

A Sub-machine gun is called such rather than sub-assault rifle because it was invented before the assault rifle.

In WWI infantry were armed with either a rifle like the Mosin Nagant (bolt action) or a light machine gun like the Lewis (non-mounted machine guns). There was no such thing as an assault rifle or automatic rifle.

In 1918 the MP18 came along. People called it two things:

Machine Pistol (MP): because it fired a pistol caliber at machine-gun rate.

or Sub-machine gun (SMG): because it was like a machine gun, just less.

I don't know why, and there is probably an interesting reason for this, but the western countries stuck to calling the type of weapon a sub-machine gun while the Germans and some other countries stuck with the term machine-pistol. MP5, anyone?

That's a bit of history on the term "sub-machine gun."

What we know as "assault rifles" started with this in WWII, well after the SMG was established.

Select fire from a rifle sized and rifle caliber package.

We know it as the Sturmgewehr 44, but this wasn't its original name. It was originally called the Maschinenpistole 43 (MP43), but Adolf Hitler, being the eccentric man that he was, saw the rifle and renamed it the Sturmgewehr (Storm Rifle) because it made the gun sound more intimidating.

It's strange that he bothered naming the gun, because he hated it and ordered his commanders not to use it. They didn't listen. The Stg44 was used to great effect during the later parts of the war, especially in the huge city fighting on the eastern front.

After the MP43/Stg44 makes mincemeat out of the Soviet army, everybody wants one.

Not wanting to call it an SMG or a rifle, the western countries decide to use a translation of the MP43's name as inspiration.

Sturmgewehr

Storm -> To storm a position: Synonym Assault
Gewehr -> Rifle

And thus everything that follows the design ideas of the Stg44 is called an "assault rifle."

While the SMG/MP name comes from a technical description, the word Assault Rifle is a translation of a sort of nickname.

-------------------------------------------

Technically speaking, yes, an M4 could be called an "assault carbine."

The use of the word "assault" in the term assault rifle doesn't originate from the fact that the gun is automatic, but rather because "assault" was a translation. It was not a technical term to describe the weapon.

The "assault" in "Assault Rifle" really came to mean "automatic" in the 90's when the media and AWB people began using that term to give the an automatic rifle (or any scary black rifle) an air of evilness.

Calling something an automatic rifle isn't scary in its own right. The name "automatic" dictates that the rifle loads itself. An ASSAULT RIFLE on the other hand gives the gun some kind of mystical soul and purpose in existence. To assault is to attack. If you own an "assault rifle" it means that both you and the gun itself want to kill people.

Since the military didn't really have to worry about the civilian gun culture when the M4 Carbine was designed, they didn't use "assault" because that word didn't mean "automatic" to them.

And that is why people think AR15 stands for "Assault Rifle."

I went to the gun range yesterday and shot 150 rounds. It was awful starting out. I had not shot in so long and was trying to anticipate the recoil. Groupings were bad and shots were much off where I thought I was aiming. The last three magazines were completely different. I slowed it down a bit and the groupings were excellent.

Here's a trick to help with flinching and anticipation.

1) Get your gun, at least two magazines, a dummy round or similar, and a target. Assuming you have 2 magazines...
2) Take one round and put it in one of the magazines. Mix up the magazines so you don't know which is which.
3) Select a magazine and put it into the gun. You should not know whether or not there is a round in the chamber.
4) Aim at the target, now balance the dummy round on top of nose of the pistol.
5) Pull the trigger. If it went off, retrieve the dummy round and start from step 3. If it didn't, then see if the dummy round fell off. If you're flinching or anticipating, the dummy round will (probably) have fallen.
6) Repeat.

The goal is to make it so that you can keep from flicking the dummy round off of the gun during a dry fire.

 

[a6m5]

Thanks for taking time to typed that out. I'll forget everything by the Fourth of July, but it was a very good read. No, it really was. 👍

The goal is to make it so that you can keep from flicking the dummy round off of the gun during a dry fire.

Z-Man, I think your middle name might be Mr. Mi-ya-gi.

I'm a hunter gun owner, I have a few rifles, shotguns & bows all for hunting purposes, I love the outdoors.

I envy that. 👍 I've always been a city slicker, but outdoor is cool, and having the skill to hunt animals for food, etc., is a very useful skill that most of us don't possess anymore.

 

[Michael88]

The reason why Hitler ''disliked'' the STG44 was because his orders were that no new rifle cartridges shall be introduced in the middle of a war - because that tends to screw up ammo supply.
The main rifle of the Germans, the Mauser K98k used the full power rifle cartridge 8x57IS, so did the machine guns and snipers while the STg44 was chambered in the 8x33mm kurz cartridge, an entirely new cartridge with a shortened case and new lightweight projectile, no other gun used it until the very end of the war. (Crude last ditch Volkssturm-Rifles in 45 used the 8mm kurz)

And he was right, during the war the Stg44s were always very low on ammunition and soldiers using it always had to carry backup guns chambered in the 8x57IS caliber. Heck, it was hard enough to get regular ammo to the eastern front lines.

The rifle manufacturers built those guns more or less behind Hitlers back telling him that it was just a new submachine gun using the regular 9x19 cartridge. Then he saw soldiers carrying a whole new rifle when he visited troops on the eastern front and he was furious - but soldiers liked the gun so much that he allowed them to continue manufacturing it, but he wasn't happy about the whole situation.

 

[Michael88]

Just finished my custom Mauser project. And no, there is nothing wrong with the pic, the barrel is really that long. (30'')
Thats why I nicknamed the rifle ''the stick''.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

Yup, that is gorgeous, very sleek and proper looking.

Fired it yet?

 

[Michael88]

Thank you!
Haven't fired it yet, for reasons unknown my shooting range is closed for two bloody weeks. Guess its because of the hot 102F summer weather.
I have dry fired it a couple of times though, set the trigger pull to super comfortable ~1lbs with minimum creep - and damn, because of its length it points like a javelin. I almost want to throw rather than shoulder it.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Nice job! Looks awesome. That 30" barrel must provide a lot of extra felocity and accuracy.

 

[Michael88]

I expect about a 150 extra feet per second over a 22'', thats not a world of difference for a 200 grain projectile that goes ~ 2650 fps (22'') - thats a vel. increase of 5.6% - but its still a nice extra.
The biggest advantage of a long barrel is the sight radius, just a few inches makes open sights so much more accurate. With a scope it doesn't matter at all.

 

[a6m5]

I do remember reading about accuracy from shorter barrels, in regards to the Ruger Gunsite Rifle. How it had shortened barrel, but it was beefier, and it still delivered good accuracy.

Thanks for updating us with the pics, and how cool is this rifle? 👍 I look forward to hearing how it'll do at the range. Good luck Michael!

 

[Michael88]

I look forward to hearing how it'll do at the range. Good luck Michael!

Thanks, I'll post some targets when I hit the range again.

I do remember reading about accuracy from shorter barrels, in regards to the Ruger Gunsite Rifle. How it had shortened barrel, but it was beefier, and it still delivered good accuracy

Well, you can argue all day long which barrel style and length is the best, thin barrels heat up more quickly and accuracy decreases fast under sustained fire, but they also cool down a lot faster than heavy barrels.

Some say short thick barrels give better accuracy because they don't swing / vibrate as much as long thin barrels, then again most target shooters and snipers use long and very long barrels.

I've seen cheap old hunting rifles that outshot custom built 5000 dollar precision rifles, they shot a 5 shot group the size of a fingernail. Seeing things like that is really an eye opener.

I say barrel length and thickness play an insignificant role in accuracy, there are factors that play a much bigger role such as the ammo, weather conditions, trigger and my favorite: the shooter.

 

[a6m5]

You know what it reminds me of? I'm a fan of basketball.

When you are learning to play, there is the orthodox way of shooting the ball. But when you see great shooters, they all have unique style that works for them. In the end, they all hit the target.

I guess, again, this is like the caliber debate. Go with what is most effective for you!

 

[a6m5]

Found this at cheaperthandirt. Sounds paranoid, but chances are probably pretty good that there is element of truth in this report, which is why it's a bit scary.

U.N. Gun Threat: ATT ‘Will Have A Real Impact’​

At the United Nations in New York City this week, the world’s nations began finalizing language for a legally binding global treaty that some believe will strip U.S. gun owners of their 2nd Amendment rights.

Meeting through July 27, 193 members of the U.N., along with non-governmental organizations, the NRA, public-interest groups, and firearms and other arms-industry representatives, are convening at the Conference on the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT).

Purported to prevent the transfer of weapons to armed groups and terrorists, ATT has been in the works since 2006. Supporters of the treaty say it will close loopholes that allow arms dealers to evade the strict laws that already exist in countries like the U.S. and transfer guns through weaker states.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon opened the conference by saying, “Our common goal is clear: a robust and legally binding Arms Trade Treaty that will have a real impact on the lives of those millions of people suffering from the consequences of armed conflict, repression and armed violence. It is ambitious, but it is achievable.”

After the conference opened, representatives from the U.K., France, Germany and Sweden issued a statement that the treaty “should cover all types of conventional weapons, notably including small arms and light weapons, all types of munitions, and related technologies.”

Language like that troubles Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, who said, “Ultimately, the U.N. Small Arms Treaty is designed to register, ban and confiscate firearms owned by private citizens,” Paul said. “So far, the gun-grabbers have successfully kept the exact wording of their new scheme under wraps. But looking at previous versions of the U.N. Small Arms Treaty, you and I can get a good idea of what’s likely in the works.”

The State Department has issued a series of key U.S. “redlines,” or statements, that the ATT must supposedly address:

-The Second Amendment to the Constitution must be upheld.

-There will be no restrictions on civilian possession or trade of firearms otherwise permitted by law or protected by the U.S. Constitution.

-There will be no dilution or diminishing of sovereign control over issues involving the private acquisition, ownership, or possession of firearms, which must remain matters of domestic law.

-The U.S. will oppose provisions inconsistent with existing U.S. law or that would unduly interfere with our ability to import, export, or transfer arms in support of our national security and foreign policy interests.

-The international arms trade is a legitimate commercial activity, and otherwise lawful commercial trade in arms must not be unduly hindered.

-There will be no requirement for reporting on or marking and tracing of ammunition or explosives.

-There will be no lowering of current international standards.

-Existing nonproliferation and export control regimes must not be undermined.

-The ATT negotiations must have consensus decision making to allow us to protect U.S. equities.

-There will be no mandate for an international body to enforce an ATT.


Despite the State Department’s so-called redlines, opponents of the treaty—the terms of which have not yet been made public—believe the ATT will eventually:

-Enact tougher licensing requirements, making law-abiding Americans cut through even more bureaucratic red tape just to own a firearm legally

-Confiscate and destroy all “unauthorized” civilian firearms

-Ban the trade, sale, and private ownership of all semi-automatic weapons

-Create an international gun registry, setting the stage for full-scale gun confiscation

Former U.N. ambassador John Bolton has cautioned gun owners to take this initiative seriously, stating that the U.N. “is trying to act as though this is really just a treaty about international arms trade between nation states, but there is no doubt that the real agenda here is domestic firearms control.”

Because a draft of the treaty hasn’t been and won’t likely be released before the end of the conference, gun advocates are worried that the worst elements of ATT would be concealed so that citizen lobbying against it couldn’t be organized in time to defeat it.

Political analyst Dick Morris has said he believes President Obama will sign the ATT on July 27, setting the stage for U.S. Senate advise and consent hearings during the lame-duck session after this year’s elections. He predicts that during that session, President Obama could enlist two-thirds of the Senate required to approve a treaty and get a resolution of ratification.

If that prediction comes true, then the enforcement arms for ATT in the U.S. would be the Justice Dept. and ATF. link

 

[Solid Lifters]

The UN has been trying so hard to strip us of our gun rights and have been unsuccessful so far, for the most part. I don't see this going through, just like all the other attempts.

I'm still concerned, though.

 

[a6m5]

The UN has been trying so hard to strip us of our gun rights and have been unsuccessful so far, for the most part. I don't see this going through, just like all the other attempts.

I'm still concerned, though.

But why do they even care? Is this because the old conspiracy theory is true about the creation of the one world governing body? I honestly don't see how our domestic firearms market could affect armed conflicts in other parts of the world.....

 

[Brett]

I did some more shooting yesterday. I will likely go another time or two this week.

 

[a6m5]

I did some more shooting yesterday. I will likely go another time or two this week.

I want more pictures, Brett. I'll PayPal you two dollars if you take a picture of yourself holding your Walther in front of a 7-Eleven.

Seriously though, sound like you are really enjoying your gun. That was the first handgun you owned, wasn't it? Accuracy improvement? Do you sometime fondle your gun watching TV by yourself?

 

[Brett]

I want more pictures, Brett. I'll PayPal you two dollars if you take a picture of yourself holding your Walther in front of a 7-Eleven.

I will have to pass on this offer, even though it is a generous one. If I were to get my concealed carry license, then in November I would be able to take a picture of me with the pistol openly carried.

Seriously though, sound like you are really enjoying your gun. That was the first handgun you owned, wasn't it? Accuracy improvement? Do you sometime fondle your gun watching TV by yourself?

Yes, first gun I have owned. Yes, accuracy is improving. All the time.

 

[Slash]

I think there would be a massive rebellion in the states if they tried taking our guns even more than they do now. They are brain washing kids into thinking they are bad.

 

[a6m5]

I think there would be a massive rebellion in the states if they tried taking our guns even more than they do now. They are brain washing kids into thinking they are bad.

I think the "brainwashing" has been around forever. Even if it wasn't the government, there will always educators, artists, etc. around who believes and spreads anti-gun propaganda. I do understand where they are coming from, I just don't necessarily agree.

I will have to pass on this offer, even though it is a generous one. If I were to get my concealed carry license, then in November I would be able to take a picture of me with the pistol openly carried.

Openly carry into the metal detector at the airport, I'll send you a box of 9mm hollow points.

Yes, first gun I have owned. Yes, accuracy is improving. All the time.

Nice. 👍 Are you still paying only around $10, shoot your own ammo?

Edit: Oh, I just got what you meant by all the time. How is it to take your Walther apart? Is it easy to clean and oil?

 

[Brett]

Nice. 👍 Are you still paying only around $10, shoot your own ammo?

$10 for range use. I buy two targets for $1 each and it ends up $12 something after tax. Yes, my own ammunition.

Edit: Oh, I just got what you meant by all the time. How is it to take your Walther apart? Is it easy to clean and oil?

Drop the magazine, safety check the weapon, pull the trigger, pull the take down catch down, and slide the slide off. Spring easily comes off and the barrel slides right out. Very easy to field strip. Cleaning is easy enough and the manual has pictures showing exactly where to put oil.

 

[a6m5]

Drop the magazine, safety check the weapon, pull the trigger, pull the take down catch down, and slide the slide off. Spring easily comes off and the barrel slides right out. Very easy to field strip. Cleaning is easy enough and the manual has pictures showing exactly where to put oil.

Wow, that is handy. 👍 For me, Glock was super easy to take apart, but 1911 was tricky. It actually took 2, 3 times for me to figure that gun out. Although I don't need youtube video or anything anymore, I'm still not absolutely smooth cleaning or lubing that gun. And if I'm not careful, recoil spring(which I use a tool to get to) could poke me in the eye.

 

[Brett]

I have cleaned it three times now and each time I have to look at the manual. I basically know each spot where is oil is needed, but I just make sure I get it right.

 

[a6m5]

I have cleaned it three times now and each time I have to look at the manual. I basically know each spot where is oil is needed, but I just make sure I get it right.

It'll come with the practice..... When in doubt, I just lightly apply that Militech stuff that I like. Since Militech failed the rust test horribly, I do spray & wipe the outside with Remoil when I'm done.

 

[Crash]

But why do they even care? Is this because the old conspiracy theory is true about the creation of the one world governing body? I honestly don't see how our domestic firearms market could affect armed conflicts in other parts of the world.....

I can see why they think limiting and more controlling is good. You know the whole thing about Operation Fast and Furious? Apparently, there was pretty good suspicion that Mexican cartels would hire people off the street in Arizona to buy guns for them with cash, which then the cartels would smuggle back to Mexico. I read a really good article about the whole debacle a few weeks back.

I'm not sure that the UN should really be regulating this at the national level though...



In other news, the police in the UK don't usually carry guns. It was so weird because I went to a local car show, and they had a police car fully open and available for people to poke around in. You'll never see that, at least, in Washington; they keep the police shotguns in the trunk.

 

[a6m5]

I can see why they think limiting and more controlling is good. You know the whole thing about Operation Fast and Furious? Apparently, there was pretty good suspicion that Mexican cartels would hire people off the street in Arizona to buy guns for them with cash, which then the cartels would smuggle back to Mexico. I read a really good article about the whole debacle a few weeks back.

I'm not sure that the UN should really be regulating this at the national level though...



In other news, the police in the UK don't usually carry guns. It was so weird because I went to a local car show, and they had a police car fully open and available for people to poke around in. You'll never see that, at least, in Washington; they keep the police shotguns in the trunk.

With Mexico, I think the problem is clearly with the corrupt politicians, but this wouldn't be the first time the lawmakers miss the mark by a mile, accomplishing only to burn more tax dollar(or pesos).

I knew about the unarmed cops in UK, even as a little kid in Japan. Even in Japan, where crime rate was so low, they had .38 Special revolvers. I still remember not wanting to be a cop in UK when I grew up.

 

[Brett]

Another 250 trouble free rounds through the pistol today. I have another 250 pack of Remington UMC and I may shoot it this weekend.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Another 250 trouble free rounds through the pistol today. I have another 250 pack of Remington UMC and I may shoot it this weekend.

Welcome to your new addiction. Pretty soon you're going to realize how much you're spending on ammo and you'll want to start assembling your own. Yet, another addiction...

 

[Brett]

I have already realized how much I have spent on ammunition. I need to start going to the golf course more and just hit range balls. That is much cheaper.

 

[a6m5]

I used to like doing that, too. I should start again.

On reloading ammo, I've seen some prices on machines, brass, etc. I don't see them being very cost effective, unless you are reloading larger caliber, or rifle ammunition?

P.S. I heard about that U.N. gun control thing on my local radio today. They claim that it will give international governing body control over much gun rights within United States.