Real Guns

[Michael88]

Yesterday I brought my little 12 gauge slug gun with iron sights (smooth bore) to the range just for the hell of it, I was amazed with its accuracy, at the 50yd range I could compete with the guys shooting rifles!
Recoil from the bench is a nightmare though, I'm 210 lbs @ 6'1'' and that thing just pushed me back like a puppet, the gun jumped at least 15'' into the air during recoil.
Guess thats what you get with 450 grains @ 1600 fp/s out of a 6.5 lbs gun, feels like shooting an elephant rifle.

Tried it at 100yds but I couldn't figure out the drop, which doesn't surprise me at all, the heavy slug dropped like a brick even out to 50, it must have dropped at least a foot and a half at 100. No way to compensate that much drop...

 

[a6m5]

God, if my shotgun shot like that, I'd sell it so fast, and I'd feel sooooo good about it.

 

[Michael88]

Why would you sell it?
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today, I'm still suffering from excessive exercise hangover.

 

[a6m5]

Because it's beating the hell out of my right shoulder! My friends Benelli's like that. He won't get rid of it, but every time we take it out shooting, you can see the frown on his face. One time, I got him to shoot the 3" loads, and I thought he was gonna cry.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Because it's beating the hell out of my right shoulder! My friends Benelli's like that. He won't get rid of it, but every time we take it out shooting, you can see the frown on his face. One time, I got him to shoot the 3" loads, and I thought he was gonna cry.

They do make 'lite' loads for 12 gauge. All the more reason to start reloading.

 

[a6m5]

I didn't know that. On my Remington, you might remember I got that Blackhawk recoil stock? It absorbs so much 'kick', it's crazy. I could shoot that thing pretty much all day long.

 

[Ven0m]

My Russian made SKS. Put an aftermarket stock, removed bayonet, and took off non-detachable 10 round mag for a detachable 30 round banana mag. Shoots 7.62 x 39.

 

[Zenith]

Recently my brother-in-law asked me if I could build him a 9mm AR. After a day's research I emailed him some estimates for cost and some examples. Unfortunately he backed out, I guess he didn't expect an AR to cost more than $300.

The big problem? Now I want one.

Also, if you ever want to discuss the effect of gun control and concealed carry, here's a great reference.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Nobody can accuse you of using biased information.

 

[che69velle]

I didn't know that. On my Remington, you might remember I got that Blackhawk recoil stock? It absorbs so much 'kick', it's crazy. I could shoot that thing pretty much all day long.

spec ops stock is sweet, i have one on my door kicker special m500

 

[a6m5]

My Russian made SKS. Put an aftermarket stock, removed bayonet, and took off non-detachable 10 round mag for a detachable 30 round banana mag. Shoots 7.62 x 39.

How much more do Russians cost? My friend has a similar one(probably Chinese). Sweet set up, I like it. 👍

Recently my brother-in-law asked me if I could build him a 9mm AR. After a day's research I emailed him some estimates for cost and some examples. Unfortunately he backed out, I guess he didn't expect an AR to cost more than $300.

The big problem? Now I want one.

Also, if you ever want to discuss the effect of gun control and concealed carry, here's a great reference.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Nobody can accuse you of using biased information.

Why 9mm? I mean you actually know guns, and I know close to nothing, but isn't 9mm AR kind of pointless? Just cheap AR to shoot? Kinda like the .22LR ones?

I'll check out the 'facts' link for sure. Thank you. 👍

spec ops stock is sweet, i have one on my door kicker special m500

It does sound sweet. Got any pics of it? I'd love to see it. 👍

 

[Ven0m]

How much more do Russians cost? My friend has a similar one(probably Chinese). Sweet set up, I like it. 👍

thanks man, it's about $100 more, typically because its got more "notoriety". Honestly there isn't much of a difference. Just sounds cooler. I got a deal on mine from a friend, so it didn't set me back to bad. It's a hell of a gun. Going to get a scope, tac light, and I already have a grip on it so it's a pretty functional gun for being nearly 60 years old.

 

[a6m5]

Nice. 👍 I have another friend, whose SKS is definitely a Chinese one. He doesn't have custom stock on his, but he did pick up a magazine (conversion)kit, so he's psyched about shooting that gun soon.

 

[Ven0m]

Nice. 👍 I have another friend, whose SKS is definitely a Chinese one. He doesn't have custom stock on his, but he did pick up a magazine (conversion)kit, so he's psyched about shooting that gun soon.

The stock is totally worth it. The mag didn't need a conversion kit, it just pops in, 30 rounds ready to go.

 

[a6m5]

The stock is totally worth it. The mag didn't need a conversion kit, it just pops in, 30 rounds ready to go.

That would explain how he got it installed so quickly. He's bit of an idiot.

 

[Ven0m]

That would explain how he got it installed so quickly. He's bit of an idiot.

Haha, yeah, if you want a gun that is reliable and almost never has a problem, I would highly recommend it. It's like the dad of the AK-47.

 

[a6m5]

Haha, yeah, if you want a gun that is reliable and almost never has a problem, I would highly recommend it. It's like the dad of the AK-47.

I don't have a proper rifle yet, though I do have one .22LR rifle. When I actually do get around to getting one, I think it's going to be a .308. I'm just in love with that caliber, either that, or .30-06. Unfortunately, rifles like FAL, SOCOM, they are beyond my budget. I might go with bolt-action, or something like Saiga. It remains to be seen!

 

[Ven0m]

I don't have a proper rifle yet, though I do have one .22LR rifle. When I actually do get around to getting one, I think it's going to be a .308. I'm just in love with that caliber, either that, or .30-06. Unfortunately, rifles like FAL, SOCOM, they are beyond my budget. I might go with bolt-action, or something like Saiga. It remains to be seen!

If I get another it would be a M-14. Would be worth the cost. And not the mini. But I do love my SKS. I feel like Russian marksman. VODKA!

 

[GTMail]

Finally took the gun in today because the rounds weren't cycling properly the last time I shot it. I had a video but it consisted of us messing around with the cycling for about half of it. I'm also going to have it de-corked back to 5 rounds. It only held 3 for competitions way back in the day. I'm also interested in getting a lever action shotgun because my grandfather had one and it was the first gun I've ever shot. You guys have any suggestions? It just has to be original and preferably dated in the mid to late 1800's. It's also an investment so that's where the originality comes from. Thanks:tup:

 

[Zenith]

Why 9mm? I mean you actually know guns, and I know close to nothing, but isn't 9mm AR kind of pointless? Just cheap AR to shoot? Kinda like the .22LR ones?

My first reaction as well.

9mm AR's were developed for SWAT, DEA, and general room-clearing for the military.

-9mm has far less penetrative power than the high speed 5.56 NATO. At very close ranges, there's a good chance that 5.56 will pass straight through a person rather than expanding and doing internal damage like it should. A 9mm is better.

-There's also liability concern. With the 5.56 NATO's penetrative power, a stray shot could go through a wall and into a place that you didn't mean to shoot (innocent people, wife, child, etc).

-A 9mm AR is desirable for police and mil because it means that the operator can train with a single platform and carry the manual-of-arms over to a different one, especially if you've accessorized your primary rifle. That's the big advantage 9mm AR's have over something like an Uzi or MP5 (which civilians can't get our hands on anyways)

-Finally, in CA we're limited to 16" barrels for rifles. The added barrel length does great things for the round's velocity. A 16" 9mm AR with off-the-shelf pistol ammo has the same muzzle energy as a .357 Magnum, depending on each cartridge's loading.

Of course, the 9mm AR is still firing a pistol round, so it's pretty much useless beyond 70-100m. But range is not relevant in your house (unless you live on a ranch). Apparently they're also a lot of fun to shoot. I'd expect so with the softer recoil and such.

My brother-in-law also can't stand having to buy multiple calibers for his guns, so being able to use the same rounds in his carbine and his 9mm handgun is nice. And yes, 9mm is cheaper than 5.56/.223.

They also look pretty neat:

 

[Michael88]

-9mm has far less penetrative power than the high speed 5.56 NATO. At very close ranges, there's a good chance that 5.56 will pass straight through a person rather than expanding and doing internal damage like it should. A 9mm is better.

This is very untrue, due to its design and velocity the 556 NATO jaws, breaks apart and fragments very violently when it hits tissue, it is designed to dump all its energy very quickly in the body and actually penetrates less (tissue & hard cover) than even a service pistol round.

That gives you an idea what the 556 does: when it hits something soft:

Now here some pistol rounds, expanding:

As you can see the pistol rounds that are much slower (almost 1/3 of the velocity of the 556) and heavier penetrate a bit more than the 556 rifle round. And because they're staying together so well they tend to also make it through many more drywalls than the 556.
Law enforcement agencies all around the world are aware of this, thats why only a handful still use 9mm SMG's.
Now most of them have switched to modern SMG's chambered in calibers like the 5.6x28 and 4.5mm calibers, fats small caliber cartridges that dump lots of energy and penetrate very little.

Soldiers in AStan & Iraq even had the problem when shooting potential suicide bomber cars with their 556 AR's, often the 556 failed to make it through the cars windshield in one piece and did not stop the driver immediately. Thats the job of bigger boys like the 7.62x51 in the M14 EBR that has FAR more penetration than the 556.

Whys that? generally speaking, slow and heavy projectiles penetrate deeper than very fast and lightweight projectiles, thats why people use calibers like the .22-250, .222, .220swift .223 (5.56 Nato) etc for varmint hunting, those rounds are in the 50-70 grain area and have muzzle velocities around 2800-4000 fp/s, they do lots of damage on small animals because they dump all their energy VERY quickly, there is no need for lots of penetration when you shoot groundhogs.

The other end of the spectrum is - for example- the .45-70, it shoots a heavy projectile in the 350-400 grain range with a velocity of approx. 1500-1800 fps. This cartridge penetrates a lot and is used by guides in Alaska for grizzly protection. Bear sculls are no joke.

The only thing I can think of why someone would want a 9mm is ammo cost, 9x19 is a bit cheaper in the long run, but not much.

 

[Zenith]

You're most certainly right. Looks like I'm running off outdated info. I also know fairly little about terminal ballistics compared to the actual workings of firearms.

It also seems that SBR's don't provide quite enough velocity for that fragmentation we're looking for.

There's tons of information about home defense ammo.

If using a short-barreled weapon: The same guidelines apply as for barrier penetration loads. SBRs usually have insufficient velocity to achieve fragmentation velocity.

As is readily apparent, FMJ ammunition - in general - is a poor performer. It penetrates deeply, but neither expands nor fragments. The well-documented performance of the M855 as a fragmenting bullet in the diagrams above is an exception; the fragmentation contributes significantly to its performance. Please refer to the Ammo FAQ for further discussion. You will note that M193/M855 are NOT on the recommended list below.

Here's a good read:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

And another:
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237

It's the reason why my dream AR (money no object) would be 6.8SPC (edit: or 6.5 Grendel) at this current point in time. That wound profile is sexy.

 

[Endless-Wilso]

No 6.5 id love an ACR with some of dem

 

[Jedi2016]

Hell of a way to come back to this thread.. all this stuff about bullet penetration and the wee little 9mm, the little hollow point that could...

And I came in here to say "Hey, I bought a Glock 19 yesterday.".. lol.

 

[Brett]

Did you take the weapon to the range yet?

 

[a6m5]

Wow, good stuff guys!!! 👍 This is not the first time it's been mentioned how you don't want to get hit by a .223, but the point has been reinforced for sure.

Glock 19 is cool. After falling in love with the full metal construction of the 1911, I contemplated Sig 9mm for awhile, but when you consider cost, I could like buy a G19, and maybe 3/4 of a G26 with the same money. Then there is the the bulletproof rep of Glocks. G19 = Money. Good job, Jedi. 👍

Z-Man: That 9mm AR does look very good. 👍 Sure beats that Hi-Point(?) 9mm Carbine.

 

[Jedi2016]

Did you take the weapon to the range yet?

Not this specific one, no. I might try to find some time this weekend.

But the store I bought it at has an indoor range, so I got to shoot a G19 before buying. I had shot a G21 about.. hell, probably close to twenty years ago now. Didn't much care for it, felt too different from what I was used to. But I kept hearing so many good things about the 19 that I figured I'd give it a try. And damn, does that gun shoot smooth. Been a while since I've fired one that felt as good as this (my .380's recoil is a bit harsh because of the smaller size, and my .45LC.. well, it's a .45LC.. hehe). So I walked right back into the store and said "Gimme that one".

The cool thing is that the store will refund the cost of your trial if you end up buying the gun you tested.

 

[a6m5]

Now, that is good service.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Poop! There was terminal balistic talk and I missed it! Tree'd by Michael88 again!




I've done my own terminal ballistic testing with the typical 5.56 NATO 55gr. FMJ round and the yaw effect was prominent. .44 Special 240 LSWC penetrated a lot deeper with my S&W 629 Birdsong Stealth Hunter revolver.

 

[a6m5]

Hunting Revolver sounds very redneck, and I'm guessing that if I tried firing one, it would make me cry, hit me in the forehead, or both.

 

[Brett]

The Walther PPQ I recently purchased came with two magazines. I am looking at buying a few more, but I am not sure how many more I should buy. I am thinking four, five, or six total would be a good number.