Real Guns

[a6m5]

AFAIK you can BUILD your own FAL out of new surplus parts (imbel) for less than 800 bucks, you don't have to burn 1500 bucks for a new one.
Building your own guns is fun, you learn a ton about the rifle and how it works and the process of putting together your personal boomstick is WAY more rewarding than going into a random shop to by one off the shelf.

Dude, I completely believe you, but I am not doing that. Actually, if I end up looking harder at FAL, I would consider it. But really, I most definitely prefer something good to go, straight out of the box.

And personally, with a rifle chambered in .308 I'd go with at least an 18'' long barrel. Why? Because with 16'' you have a lot of muzzle blast, a lot of noise, somewhat more recoil, and you waste power.
Also, with a gas operated rifle (piston) adjusting the gas settings correctly is harder and you have to be more careful with a short barrel rifle.

It does make sense, and I will definitely put that into consideration, but to be honest, two guns: One that I have looked into the hardest, Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle, it had 16.5" barrel. One I would buy if I was to order one today, Bushmaster MOE 308 has 16" barrel.

I know that reviews were raving about the barrel on Ruger, but have not researched the Bushmaster yet. There is another thing that I added into consideration lately, which is weight. Of course, you know how I change my mind all the time, so don't be surprised if I ended up with a AK & a compact Glock.

 

[Michael88]

Can't tell if the Bushmaster has the AR15 direct impingement or a short stroke piston system and its also not mentioned in the description - but from the looks of it seems to be the former.

I'd stay away from the direct impingement system, the piston is more reliable, cleaner and easier to clean; it also has a better track record on the battlefields. There is a reason why the newest top of the line AR's all came out with a short stroke piston system and why no other modern rifles use the DI.

Unfortunately, the only piston AR in .308 I could find were in the 2.5k+ price range.

http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=25

(They also make an AR in 7.62x39 (AK-round), I think thats pretty nifty!

There is still the Saiga though which is a perfectly fine inexpensive .308 semi auto. 👍

 

[a6m5]

Boy, looks like you are right about both the gas piston vs direct impingement, and also about this rifle being the latter.

Still not out, but just like that, it is no longer the front-runner.

Thanks Michael!

 

[Eric.]

Posted in the Show off Your Latest Purchase thread already, so I'll just drop this one here.

Baikal manufactured (Russian) Makarov. Will post more pictures when I actually get it.

 

[a6m5]

Sweet. 👍 Why Makarov? What caliber is that?(I get the feeling it's something I've never heard of).

 

[Zenith]

Because Mak's are sexy, sexy guns.

I definitely agree that building a gun is an awesome experience.

As for the whole "DI vs. Piston" thing... Not so much. Noveske and Knight's Armament are two of the best AR15 builders out there and they use DI. I prefer DI on the AR15 platform. It's what the gun was designed with.

A piston system affects accuracy. Anytime you have something attached to or touch the barrel can influence the barrel harmonics. With a piston system, you have a moving mass that contacts whatever the gas transfer mechanism is attached to the barrel (gas block). With a DI system, the gas just flows through the gas tube, to the bolt carrier which is the piston in a DI system.

As a result, direct impingement AR15's are more accurate, lighter, have better balance, less complicated, and plenty reliable. They are also easier to find replacement parts for, since the direct impingement AR15 design is standard and each gas piston design tends to be different than the last.

Here's a test done by the venerable Mike Pannone.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

Piston AR's certainly have their place. They are great for suppressed rifles, short barreled rifles, or rifles with select fire, but the DI system is not weak by any measure. DI's are especially good for civilian rifles. I and others (I can't be bothered to go find their experiences at the moment) have run thousands and thousands of rounds through DI guns with a standard amount of lubrication without a hiccup.

Edit: "Direct Impingement" is a bit of a misnomer, the AR15 has an inline piston. The piston is the bolt carrier. It includes vents on the side to redirect excess gasses. A true direct impingement rifle would be the French MAS-49 rifle. A "piston" AR does not add a piston, it simply moves the piston forward from the receiver and adds an actuating rod.

Here's another:
http://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-carbine-reliability-issues-why-they-occur-and-why-theyre-our-fault/

 

[Brett]

Sweet. 👍 Why Makarov? What caliber is that?(I get the feeling it's something I've never heard of).

9x18mm Makarov

 

[a6m5]

As for the whole "DI vs. Piston" thing... Not so much. Noveske and Knight's Armament are two of the best AR15 builders out there and they use DI. I prefer DI on the AR15 platform. It's what the gun was designed with.

A piston system affects accuracy. Anytime you have something attached to or touch the barrel can influence the barrel harmonics. With a piston system, you have a moving mass that contacts whatever the gas transfer mechanism is attached to the barrel (gas block). With a DI system, the gas just flows through the gas tube, to the bolt carrier which is the piston in a DI system.

As a result, direct impingement AR15's are more accurate, lighter, have better balance, less complicated, and plenty reliable. They are also easier to find replacement parts for, since the direct impingement AR15 design is standard and each gas piston design tends to be different than the last.

Dang, then the other side of the argument. I'd still take reliability over accuracy, but looks like direct impingement isn't all "con's". I have to say though, reliability & cleaner operation(easier cleaning) are very attractive to me. However, perhaps what keeps direct impingement in the game are the cost + availability. Of course, Saiga .308 has the piston + low price. Only thing with that gun, I'd have to swap out the stock, grip, etc. It really lacks in the 'looks' department.

9x18mm Makarov

9mm of the East, I see.

 

[Eric.]

Yeah, slightly oddball round, but I've found it online easily enough and purchased 150 rounds already.

A friend was actually posting about his Makarov on Facebook one day, and mentioned to somebody that he knew where one could be had for $200. I started researching on them, found how dead reliable they are, and liked the efficiency of design and the history. About five days ago I decided I wanted to buy a handgun (this is my first, actually) and knew the Mak would be a pretty safe option and also affordable. This one was listed for $249, no reserve, five days left in the auction. I placed a bid for $275. Nobody else tried to win it, so I got it for $249. Pretty good price considering the package: original box, all original manuals and papers, cleaning rod, original holster, extra magazine, and a few other things.

Now I get to listen to people talk about how weak and pathetic 9mm is and how you need .45ACP to stop someone. To those people, "Ok, you go over there and run at me while I shoot you."

 

[Zenith]

Isn't the ammo super cheap? It's Russian so you know the labor costs were nothing.

@a6m5
The reason why DI is viable is because piston doesn't offer any big advantages that make it worth the extra weight and complexity. 15,000 rounds with 9 malfunctions is plenty for anyone I can think of.

Here's my advice if you ever get an AR15. Buy direct impingement first then decide if you really need an op-rod. I highly doubt you'll be left wanting more. A piston upper can be swapped on at any time if you don't like it.

 

[Eric.]

Bought some steel-cased ammo for $11.29 per 50. Russian guns of the era were designed for the stuff, but a few people have sort of warned me about using steel casings since the purchase. I don't expect it to be a problem, but the brass stuff is about $15 per 50. I plan to pick up a couple more magazines as I can find them and then have a small amount of either lower velocity or hollow point home defense rounds.

 

[a6m5]

Sounds really good about your gun, dude. I'm looking forward to the pics. 👍

I never really understood about the steel case thing either. I've fired them in the Glock 9mm I used to have, also in my 1911(.45ACP). Though I've shot much fewer numbers of those compared to the regular brass shells, they did fire flawlessly(not one hiccup). I think maybe it's about the excessive wear they cause to the guns?

In regards to the ballistics like 9mm versus .45, while it's true that 9mm can be deadly, it's also important to realize its' strengths & weaknesses of whatever caliber you happened to be carrying.

When I first got my 9mm, Bruther Superior(I think that was his name on here) warned me that if I wanted a gun that would drop someone without fail, get a caliber that started with a "4"(.40 S&W, etc.). I had my mag loaded with hollow points anyway, didn't really pay mind until that day, that Congresswoman Gifford got shot in Arizona. Yeah, it was target round, but it was a headshot!

Don't get me wrong, even if someone survive a headshot, they are not going to get up and continue to be a threat. It just caught me by surprise, and made me pay more attention to ballistics.

Also no-brainer, but shot placement is the ultimate key in effectiveness of your defensive shot.

P.S. My hats off to that Congresswoman. I am no fan of politician, but she is one tough & brave lady.

@a6m5
The reason why DI is viable is because piston doesn't offer any big advantages that make it worth the extra weight and complexity. 15,000 rounds with 9 malfunctions is plenty for anyone I can think of.

Here's my advice if you ever get an AR15. Buy direct impingement first then decide if you really need an op-rod. I highly doubt you'll be left wanting more. A piston upper can be swapped on at any time if you don't like it.

That does make sense to me. My thing with the guys' data is that it's still just one man's data. People often have unique experiences with all types of firearms. However, I do realize that we are talking about casual(at best) shooter here, and if I get the .308, they are nearly a dollar a round. I'm not gonna go out and fire a thousand round in the first year anything. Not. Even. Close.

 

[Michael88]

As a result, direct impingement AR15's are more accurate, lighter, have better balance, less complicated, and plenty reliable. They are also easier to find replacement parts for, since the direct impingement AR15 design is standard and each gas piston design tends to be different than the last.

The accuracy difference in a short stroke Piston gun vs. a DI gun is highly theoretical, as we know -for example- the M14 which is used as VERY accurate DMR up to 800yds has - guess what- a short stroke piston system. It shoots less than 1 MOA! Its famous for its accuracy, its reliability and the fact that it doesn't need to be sterile & perfectly clean all the time to function properly.
The steyr AUG also has a reputation of being very accurate - as accurate as the AR- and it uses the short stroke piston design.
(I see the Steyr AUG and the AR head-to-head all the times here in semi-auto rifle matches.)

Also, the rather tight AR system requires a well lubed bolt yet the DI design blows hot burned gas residue directly into the chamber. And what do you get when oil gets very hot? Tar. And that stuff doesn't belong in the chamber of a gun.
Thats why you have to be very careful with the type of lube you're using in an AR.

About the gas piston replacement: I have yet to see a gas piston break in a high quality rifle, chances are bigger that the extractor claw breaks loooong before the piston rod quits.

I agree with the better balance of DI rifle, there is less metal in front of the gun which makes it less nose heavy, on the other hand that is not necessarily a bad thing, especially with bigger calibers like .308. If its not excessively nose heavy it helps with recoil and gives you faster follow-up shots because of less muzzle rise and its steadier to hold standing unsupported because the extra weight above the barrel reduces shaking and vibrations from your body.

Direct impingement is a system of the past, no other modern rifle uses that system anymore and all the new rifles which are meant to replace the AR15 have a short stroke or long stroke piston design.

 

[Eric.]

Sounds really good about your gun, dude. I'm looking forward to the pics. 👍

I never really understood about the steel case thing either. I've fired them in the Glock 9mm I used to have, also in my 1911(.45ACP). Though I've shot much fewer numbers of those compared to the regular brass shells, they did fire flawlessly(not one hiccup). I think maybe it's about the excessive wear they cause to the guns?

Something like that. I also bought the non lacquer-coated rounds for a buck extra after reading that lacquer-coated rounds can gunk up a barrel and kind of glue a round in the chamber if it melts then cools.

It looks like the general consensus with Makarovs is to shoot whatever 9x18M bullets you find, clean it once every decade or two, and it'll outlast you.

 

[Zenith]

The accuracy difference in a short stroke Piston gun vs. a DI gun is highly theoretical, as we know -for example- the M14 which is used as VERY accurate DMR up to 800yds has - guess what- a short stroke piston system. It shoots less than 1 MOA! Its famous for its accuracy, its reliability and the fact that it doesn't need to be sterile & perfectly clean all the time to function properly.
The steyr AUG also has a reputation of being very accurate - as accurate as the AR- and it uses the short stroke piston design.
(I see the Steyr AUG and the AR head-to-head all the times here in semi-auto rifle matches.)

I should have been more clear. Short stroke pistons affect AR15 accuracy because the AR15 was designed to use direct impingement.

Here's an M1 Garand. Look how the gas port is at the very, very end of the barrel.

Here's an M4 barrel.

The gas pushes the op rod (thus messing with the barrel's harmonics) while the bullet is still going down the barrel. Piston AR's routinely shoot larger groups than DI AR's.

Also, the rather tight AR system requires a well lubed bolt yet the DI design blows hot burned gas residue directly into the chamber. And what do you get when oil gets very hot? Tar. And that stuff doesn't belong in the chamber of a gun.
Thats why you have to be very careful with the type of lube you're using in an AR.

When oil gets hot, it burns away. It's common for AR's to go thousands and thousands of rounds without gumming up.

I've run everything from motor oil to petrol based to synthetic lube in my AR's. They've all been fine. So have plenty of other people.

About the gas piston replacement: I have yet to see a gas piston break in a high quality rifle, chances are bigger that the extractor claw breaks loooong before the piston rod quits.

Here are some notes from Robb Jensen on piston guns failing.

HK...cracked upper receivers when shot hard suppressed. Firing pin safety failures. Broken bolts.

POF...highly worn receiver extensions which caused erratic bolt velocity which was causing failure to eject, failure to feed etc whenever the bolt carrier would get caught in the trough cause by carrier tilt. Cracked bolt, cracked log at top of bolt. Large amount of finish wear/gouging caused by front-top of bolt carrier dragging along the receiver bore as the carrier tilt. A temp fix is a new receiver extension and new upper receiver (two things that don't really wear out in DI guns by the way). One particular POF I've seen will not run on this one particular AR lower but on that same AR lower all DI uppers (7 different ones) worked just fine. Corrosive pitting of the gas piston and op rod. Broken bolt lug which got between the carrier and upper receiver and ruined the upper receiver which required a new receiver and new bolt.

early ARES....bent op rod in less than 600 rounds on full auto on a 11.5" upper, due to spigot coming lose after the gas tube roll pin 'exited stage left'.

LWRC...I've thus far fixed 4 lose barrel nuts, replaced heavy worn receiver extensions with this wear causing unusual stoppages (fixed with a new extension and anti-tilt buffer). Early ones had carrier keys coming lose before they key was integral to the carrier. On two early one I replaced two broken bolts (before Matech).

PWS...lose gas block (2nd gen after moving away from a pinned gas block to a set screw gas block). Newer pinned Diablo style is much better. 1st gen I had the piston (which is attached to the carrier) came lose but I caught it before it caused stoppages.

LMT...highly worn receiver extensions from carrier tilt causing unusual stoppages fixed with a new receiver extension and anti-tilt buffer. Lose barrels if not checked regularly.

I agree with the better balance of DI rifle, there is less metal in front of the gun which makes it less nose heavy, on the other hand that is not necessarily a bad thing, especially with bigger calibers like .308. If its not excessively nose heavy it helps with recoil and gives you faster follow-up shots because of less muzzle rise and its steadier to hold standing unsupported because the extra weight above the barrel reduces shaking and vibrations from your body.

Meh, a heavy barrel or a picatinny mounted brick would do the same job. The op rod has to reciprocate, which makes recoil just a tiny bit higher. It's like an F1 car. Make it as light as you possibly can, then ballast if necessary.

Direct impingement is a system of the past, no other modern rifle uses that system anymore and all the new rifles which are meant to replace the AR15 have a short stroke or long stroke piston design.

I agree. I think the piston system is better, just not on an AR15.

As of now there's immense support, options, and knowledge available for the AR platform that you don't get with any other firearm. I see it as the best rifle out there to own right now, DI or not.

That does make sense to me. My thing with the guys' data is that it's still just one man's data. People often have unique experiences with all types of firearms. However, I do realize that we are talking about casual(at best) shooter here, and if I get the .308, they are nearly a dollar a round. I'm not gonna go out and fire a thousand round in the first year anything. Not. Even. Close.

Pannone is up there with Pat Rogers on the list of people who are experts at all things combat.

I still think that a Mosin would be an awesome rifle for you to own. I mean, why not? It costs practically nothing to buy and shoot.

 

[a6m5]

It looks like the general consensus with Makarovs is to shoot whatever 9x18M bullets you find, clean it once every decade or two, and it'll outlast you.

Sounds like a good deal!

I still think that a Mosin would be an awesome rifle for you to own. I mean, why not? It costs practically nothing to buy and shoot.

Nah, it's another hundred bucks I can put toward another gun.

Besides, I want my ammo to be mainstream & readily available at Walmart!

 

[Brett]

Bought some steel-cased ammo for $11.29 per 50. Russian guns of the era were designed for the stuff, but a few people have sort of warned me about using steel casings since the purchase. I don't expect it to be a problem, but the brass stuff is about $15 per 50. I plan to pick up a couple more magazines as I can find them and then have a small amount of either lower velocity or hollow point home defense rounds.

I just watched a video about Wolf Ammunition, also steel cased.

Sounds like a good deal!

Nah, it's another hundred bucks I can put toward another gun.

Besides, I want my ammo to be mainstream & readily available at Walmart!

The 7.62x54mmR round that the Mosin Nagant fires has been in service since 1891. The price is also cheaper than .308. What is not to like?

7.62x54mmR Prices

From the place above, you can buy 880 round for about $150 with shipping. Good luck on getting any where close to that with .308.

 

[Zenith]

And here's the first video. He talks about the ammo itself a bit more, including the whole lacquer coated thing.

 

[a6m5]

What is not to like?

I'm not knocking on the ammo, I'm looking for widely used ammo that I can pick up anywhere, and my friends also uses. Like I said, if Walmart doesn't carry it, chances of me going after that caliber is probably zero.

 

[Brett]

So Walmart does not carry it? Big whoop. 7.62x54mmR is more than widely available. There is tons and tons of surplus sitting around. Just because you cannot get the ammunition at Walmart is not a reason to not buy a firearm. There are more than enough other suppliers that can take care of you.

 

[Zenith]

The solution for not being able to buy your ammo from Walmart is to just buy way more than you need so you never need to make the ammo run.

Next time you go to a rifle range find the guy with the load friggin boomstick. Ask if you can pop off a few rounds. He shouldn't mind, the gun ain't valuable and the ammo ain't expensive. If you like it, evaluate the possibility of having it in your possession for $100.

 

[a6m5]

I don't know why you guys are pushing it to somebody who just does not want it! I'm currently looking for one, main rifle, and I have just about zero interest in older bolt-action. Walmart comment was kind of figure of speech in that I prefer ammo that I can bum off anyone, find anywhere in a pinch.

Bolt-action is still under consideration, but it will be something along the lines of used Remington, Ruger hunting rifle to new Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle. Chances of me buying Mosin Nagant is absolute zero at this point. If I owned couple of rifles that I do want already, then chances of me looking to buy it is actually more than likely.

On somewhat related note, I emailed a quick price & availability request to couple of local shops, and on the Bushmaster MOE 308, one reply I've received so far was $1299. Not as low as I like, but about what I expected.

On totally unrelated note, I found a supposedly just purchased Ruger SR22 pistol on the classifieds. I'm hoping to meet with the guy today, see if I can get it for $265. I had no interest in a .22 pistol, but there are people giving me hard time how everybody should own one, and I can't argue the value factor. I just didn't want to spend $300+ before. If the gun's not even broke in yet, $265 I can handle. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Eric.]

Or you could get three Mosin-Nagants.

 

[Michael88]

I have to agree with those who suggest a Mosin Nagant carbine, there is a reason why it is so famous. The Mosin Nagant M44 is so much fun for so little money, its hands down the best deal in the rifle-world, just shoot one, you'll absolutely love it.

The sights are very good and solid, I knew a guy who could hit targets at 300yds all day long with that little carbine, the cartridge is very accurate and has as much power as the .30-06, the system itself is well, pretty much indestructible and fool-proof - and all that in a very compact package which runs for ~150 bucks in unissued condition.
Ammo is readily available all around the world.

Its a very fine rifle that shouldn't be turned down because it doesn't come with an adjustable synthetic stock, muzzle brake and an aimpoint

Personally I prefer the Mauser, but most shooters prefer the better sights of the Mosin.

 

[Eric.]

It looks like M44s go for more like $250.

 

[a6m5]

Jesus Christ, not you guys, too!

Seriously though, I am not discounting any of those claims. It could be the best rifle in the world for me, but at this point in time, it's not at all what I'm after.

Currently, I'm really leaning towards what the media refers to as assault rifles again. I'm gonna go look up how long the previous ban was for, because I think the chances are realistic that another one might hit us in the near future.

P.S. SR22 deal TOTALLY fell through. Seller flaked on me, and he will not reply my email. Who knows, maybe he had some kind of emergency. I wasn't even looking for a .22 pistol, so I'll just shift my focus back to the rifle.

 

[Eric.]

The media might refer to the Mosin as a sniper rifle.

 

[a6m5]

No, you noob!

Mosin = Barrett



Edit: Jeez. Last Assault Rifle Ban went for ten years. What did you guys do during that time. Buy any used ARs & AKs? Airsoft?

 

[Eric.]

I saw an image the other day about a Mosin that said "The government wouldn't ban your hunting rifle. They'll call it a sniper rifle first."

 

[a6m5]

👍

Well....... I'm on the online ordering page right now. Bushmaster MOE .308

I'm doing the virtual walking back 'n' forth thing right now, but I think I'm going to pull the trigger(no pun intended).

Edit: OK, I did some more thinking, and I just said 🤬 it, I ordered it.

What I'm going to be using this rifle for, Bushmaster should be fine. However, I did strongly consider the standard .223 caliber. In the end, I really felt that as soon as I get .223, I'd end up wanting the .308. Worst case scenario, if I change my mind about the gun, or the caliber, I'd take very little loss(if any) selling it off, considering how much I'm getting the gun for.