Real Guns

[Quackjack]

One of the main reasons I want a gun. What else am I gonna do with a robber with a machete or something. BAM pull outta gun that's what.

 

[GTMail]

I'm very happy that I can defend my life / home and the lives of my loved ones with an up-to-date tool. A tool you can defend your life with is one of the most important items a human being can own.

Humans carried self defense items since they were able to use and make tools, I don't think that evolution changed us so much in the past hundred years that those items are completely useless now. Or just entertainment.

In fact, whenever I watch the news I get the feeling that self defense guns are getting more and more important -and no less important than a car or a house.

You make some valid points. Maybe I should get a self-defense weapon. I mean, my Light 12 is cool and all but I don't think a shotgun from the 40's won't do me much help if someone happened to come in. That being said, I live in a gated community and I also have a personal gate with password and security alarms in front of my house. I think I should be alright regardless.

 

[a6m5]

Also, what other gun-enthusiast clubs are there besides the NRA? As pointed out, I'm new to this stuff, and would like to see what is out there. I'd rather not join a group with so many staunch republicans...

I just received my free "NRA" hat in the mail today.

I'm not familiar with their politics, but I know that they back gun rights. And after purchasing my first (proper)rifle, NRA's free firearm insurance made it an absolute no-brainer for me to join.

I used the link Icarus provided here looong time ago. Instead of $35 for the year, it's $25. Cheap insurance, comes with free magazine subscription.

 

[Icarus25]

One of the main reasons I want a gun. What else am I gonna do with a robber with a machete or something. BAM pull outta gun that's what.

You're not helping yourself with a statement like that.

I'm very happy that I can defend my life / home and the lives of my loved ones with an up-to-date tool. A tool you can defend your life with is one of the most important items a human being can own.

Humans carried self defense items since they were able to use and make tools, I don't think that evolution changed us so much in the past hundred years that those items are completely useless now. Or just entertainment.

In fact, whenever I watch the news I get the feeling that self defense guns are getting more and more important -and no less important than a car or a house.

That statement was about why cars weren't illegal and certain guns were. Having one for self defense still doesn't mitigate the fact that it's not a necessary item. And no one ever said a gun was useless. Still, with some smarts and a bit of training you can easily defend yourself with a baseball bat or golf club.

 

[a6m5]

Yeah, if they broke into my apartment with a baseball bat or golf club!

Personally, I'm sort of happy with where we are at for the most of us in the United States. Places where they retard the firearms of law-abiding citizens, or they ban handguns, etc., to me is unacceptable(says the Japanese guy lol).

I do have one concern regarding gun law. In Oregon, there is no background check required for private sale of firearms. I think it's only fair to go through FFL for all sales & trades.

P.S. I got some gun stuff today. My coworker gave me a free scope(a cheapie), and I also got 1911 recoil spring kit, and two mags for my AR(PMAG + DPMS). Here's what the rifle looks like with a PMAG:

They look nice man. I'm gonna buy at least one more!

Edit:

Free scope I got was this: Bushnell 74-0412.

I think I'm going to go with this picatinny scope mount: UTG Max Strength QD Lever Lock Integral Picatinny Mounting Systems (1-Inch)

This scope happens to have 1" tube, and I'll try to keep the next one a 1", too. This scope mount doesn't give enough clearance on top of the rifle, but with those freebie Bushmaster risers I got, looks like there should be plenty. Thanks a lot for your help in that department Michael!

 

[Quackjack]

What would be a better first addon, a attachable scope or grip?

 

[a6m5]

What would be a better first addon, a attachable scope or grip?

In Call of Duty, without a fail, you want a grip for RPD, or silencers if it's a SCAR or ACR.

In real life, it really depends on which rifle you have, and where you need help. I never thought I needed a front vertical grip, but this gun came with it, and I haven't shot it yet(this weekend, hopefully), but I like it.

Scope became one of the priorities for me after shooting at 200 yard range. I used to run 200 meters(sort of similar distance), and it was nothing. Shooting from that far away at a paper target was a whole another matter. Optics rule.

After I get a real scope, I really want a picatinny rail mounted bi-pod.

 

[Zenith]

What would be a better first addon, a attachable scope or grip?

Ammo and practice. Seriously. Don't go gear crazy. You cannot use equipment to replace training.

I don't think I've ever seen a more wrong interpretation of military firearms as "tools." You can't honestly sit there with a straight face and tell me the sole purpose of their design wasn't to inflict more damage than the enemy. They sure as hell weren't designed to put holes in paper. In a very broad sense they are a tool, and it's the person behind the trigger who is providing the necessary energy to make the "tool" do it's job.

Yes I can. By saying that their "sole purpose" is to kill people, you are saying that any other use is misuse. Is an M16 being misused when it shoots tin cans?

Think about a hammer. You could say that its sole purpose is to hit nails, but then you are saying that the hammer is being misused when it is used to beat sheet metal, or hit a watermelon, or hurt someone in self defense?

A hammer is designed to use leverage to apply a force to an object.

An M16 is designed to hurl a projectile with great speed.

Nobody has the authority to say that either has any purpose other than the two I just cited. They are designed to do what they do. That is apply force and hurl projectiles respectively.

The hammer's force can be applied to a nail, or sheet metal, or a person. None of those are misuse of the hammer.

An M16's projectile can be hurled into paper, a tin can, or a person. None of those are misuse of the M16.

Both of them have a purpose and that purpose can be used to accomplish many tasks. To say that the purpose of an M16 is to kill people is to say that punching paper with it is misuse.

Is banning them more fear mongering than factual evidence...sure. And no, it doesn't make it much harder for people to get them if they really want to cause as much chaos as they can. In some cases it's easier for a criminal to get a weapon than it is for a law abiding citizen. I'm not saying ban all guns, that's stupid and goes against the 2nd Amendment. Again, this wasn't a discussion on complete gun control. It was "why are automatic weapons banned" and the plainest answer is that they can do a lot more harm in the wrong hands. Be that sentiment right or wrong, it's the WHY.

I'm saying that you're using the same flawed logic as those who say that all guns should be banned. You're saying that it's the tool that causes the destruction.

The car comparison is also mildly retarded. Automobiles get people from place to place, they're necessary in this day and age for Joe Schmoe the average citizen to get to and from his job. Don't even try to bring up public transportation as an alternative because it's not feasible for a massive population. Unless you're a hunter or a soldier, guns are an "entertainment" item. You don't need one to get through your daily routine.

This is another argument used by anti-gun advocates. "Why do you need it?"

I don't need it, I want it. Why do you need movies to get through your daily routine? Why do you need fine cuisine? Why do people need access to drain cleaner?

It is not the responsibility of the user to prove why they need an object. If you want to restrict something, you need to explain why somebody like me having it infringes on your rights to life, liberty, and property. How does me owning an automatic firearm infringe on your rights to life, liberty, and property?

 

[Icarus25]

Keep twisting my remarks to suit your thoughts. You seem to fail at simple reading comprehension. No where did I ever say shooting paper is a misuse of a firearm. You seem to be substituting the word "use" for my word "design." It is fact, however, that all military firearms were thought up and designed for killing people first and foremost. Some historical ones had the added purpose as a scare tactic, hoping the sheer size and power would be enough to stop attackers without needing to be fired. By and large they were built to protect and to kill. Over time, shooting became sport and guns developed new uses. Don't confuse modern uses with original intent.

You again failed to understand the car analogy, and it's pointless to even bother explaining it because you'll just keep throwing up straw men.

You also fail to see the general scope of the issue. You can't ban people, you can't make them illegal. You make their actions illegal, and in some cases the "tools" that are uses to carry out said actions. Again, I'm not sitting here arguing for or against gun control. You're the one on the soapbox saying how things SHOULD be, I'm only saying why they ARE.

 

[Zenith]

You said that the sole purpose that most automatic firearms were developed for was to kill people. I said that one of the many purposes of automatic firearms were developed for was to kill people. I included the hammer analogy to make it clear to you how silly saying that any object has a "sole" purpose is.

Who are you to say that the M16 or most other automatic firearms have the sole purpose of killing people? Don't define something's purpose based on what you think it is, define something's purpose by what is actually does.

You brought up several flawed points, I argued against them. You can call strawman all you want. Here is what I said.

By saying that their "sole purpose" is to kill people, you are saying that any other use is misuse

In response to what you said:

Add to that that most were developed for the sole purpose of war, i.e killing people..

purpose
1. The reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
2. An intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.

A sole purpose means that the object has a single desired result of its use (killing people). A single reason for which it exists (killing people). You argued that the M16's single desired result was for killing people. I argue that killing people is one of many.

If you are using something outside of it's "sole" purpose then you are not using it for the reason it exists. You are not fulfilled the desired goal of the object. Is shooting an M16 at tin cans failing to fulfill the desired result that the M16 was intended for? No.

 

[Quackjack]

In Call of Duty, without a fail, you want a grip for RPD, or silencers if it's a SCAR or ACR.

In real life, it really depends on which rifle you have, and where you need help. I never thought I needed a front vertical grip, but this gun came with it, and I haven't shot it yet(this weekend, hopefully), but I like it.

Scope became one of the priorities for me after shooting at 200 yard range. I used to run 200 meters(sort of similar distance), and it was nothing. Shooting from that far away at a paper target was a whole another matter. Optics rule.

After I get a real scope, I really want a picatinny rail mounted bi-pod.

Aside from your immature remark...

Yeah of coarse you have to get acquitted with the gun first, but afterwords add-ons are nice. Yah, grips can increase your accuracy, but scopes help precision. Guess it would depend more on the kind of gun.

 

[Michael88]

Still, with some smarts and a bit of training you can easily defend yourself with a baseball bat or golf club.

Now you're getting silly.
If an armed robber with a gun enters your home and you have nothing but blunt objects to defend yourself you better run, even if you are a black belt ninja. Maybe you've played too many computer games, unless you are very lucky you'll be riddled with holes before you can even reach the attacker with your blunt object because a gun is a RANGED weapon.

And what if the person that has to defend itself is an elderly person or someone with a chronic disease? Tough luck?

@a6m

Hmm, the mount looks really low. Not too low for the scope, but maybe for you? AR's need rather tall mounts because the rear stock where you head is is the same height as the picatinny rail.
Most rifles have a rear stock drop so you can install really low mounts, thats not possible with the AR style rifle.

 

[Zenith]

Yeah of coarse you have to get acquitted with the gun first, but afterwords add-ons are nice. Yah, grips can increase your accuracy, but scopes help precision. Guess it would depend more on the kind of gun.

I'd like to reiterate this point. Don't take it as an insult, because it isn't one.

You say you want an AR15? Buy this and don't change a single part on it.

Practice, practice, practice. Instead of buying $30 grips, $100 compensators, and $100 stocks, spend the money on ammo and magazines and nothing else. Learn to shoot with iron sights first. Learn to shoot with the standard grips and stock the gun comes with. Only after you are familiar with a firearm will you be able to truly appreciate and employ the bonuses that scopes, grips, and the lot will bring.

If you spend $3,000 on a rifle before you've put 500 rounds through it, you really aren't doing anything but playing pretend commando. If that's what you want, fine. It's your money. However, if you want to become proficient with a firearm, practice is the only way to do it.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. I'm talking specifically about the AR15 you've shown interest in.

Honestly, it would probably be better for you to start on something like a Ruger 10/22 then move up in steps from there. Many people end up spending too much money on a super commando AR15 and then realize that they were never really interested in shooting in the first place. I'm ignoring that for the purposes of this post. a6m5 has a slightly different set of guidelines since he's using a .308 and has shot before.

 

[Quackjack]

Ruger 10/22's are only several hundred right?

 

[Zenith]

$200 to $300.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_59_79/products_id/70280/Ruger+1022+Standard+22LR%2C+Blued%2C+Hardwood+1022RB

And the ammo is cheaper than dirt.

http://www.luckygunner.com/22-lr-36-gr-hp-remington-golden-bullet-6300-round

It's easy to learn on, easy to clean, and has a massive support community. It's a wonderful gun for pretty much anyone.

Of course, it's not the most thrilling to shoot. A Remington 700 or AR15 can also be good choices for a first time owner if you have the cash for the gun and ammo.

 

[Quackjack]

From a quick glance AR15 ammo seems to be around 25-40 cents a round. Not to bad, but i'd have to look at it some more.

 

[a6m5]

If you are not an experienced shooter, .22 got to be the best place to start. They are typically like 500 rounds for $20. No better way to get into the hobby really.

And 10/22 has gone up in price a bit, but if you treat them right, they have excellent resale value(but you should keep it), and they last forever. Don't buy the "other" .22 rifle like I did.

@a6m

Hmm, the mount looks really low. Not too low for the scope, but maybe for you? AR's need rather tall mounts because the rear stock where you head is is the same height as the picatinny rail.
Most rifles have a rear stock drop so you can install really low mounts, thats not possible with the AR style rifle.

I've cancelled the order for now. I'm going to look it over again after work, when I have more time. Thanks for the heads-up! 👍

 

[Michael88]

Hey, maybe the mount would have worked, I just said that it looks kinda low, maybe I'm wrong!

It would just suck to get a super high cheek weld with a low scope so that you have to tilt your had to one side to get a proper look through the scope - been there done that. And such cheek position hurts a lot with more powerful calibers.

 

[Michael88]

I'm pissed off now.....just 50 rounds was enough to crack my new wooden stock right where the recoil lug sits.
I'm gonna buy a cheap but indestructible synthetic stock now. **** wood.

 

[Omnis]

Was that wood treated? Should be able to take that kind of load in that direction. How weird.

 

[Michael88]

I've re-worked quite a few wooden stocks so I know this particular type of rifle likes to crack them after a few thousand rounds - but not after only 50 rounds.

I can't even repair it it, the structural integrity of the recoil lug area is gone and it will continue to crack. The stock is now trash.

 

[Quackjack]

Probs gonna start with the remington, then move on to the AR.

 

[Icarus25]

Now you're getting silly.
If an armed robber with a gun enters your home and you have nothing but blunt objects to defend yourself you better run, even if you are a black belt ninja. Maybe you've played too many computer games, unless you are very lucky you'll be riddled with holes before you can even reach the attacker with your blunt object because a gun is a RANGED weapon.

And what if the person that has to defend itself is an elderly person or someone with a chronic disease? Tough luck?

You are laughable. Someone breaks into my house, the house I know like the back of my hand, I have the advantage. I can hide and ambush them with any sort of weapon. To say that a gun is the only useful weapon is utter BS. Hell, there are circumstances where not even a gun is going to save you, even if you're Special Forces. Also, you're assuming that you know exactly what weapon an attacker has. You seem to forget that different places have very different laws. Your shoot first mentality could very well get you in far more trouble than the robber would be in.

If anyone has been playing too many video games or even watching too much TV, it's you. I'm done though. Rational discussion with mindless gun nuts is about as futile as discourse with religions fundies.

 

[Quackjack]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out know-it-all

Anyways, is it legal to own hand grenades? I know it's the gun thread, and I obviously don't plan to own any regardless, I'm just curious.

 

[Dennisch]

Even with our tough gun laws, I could get one of those after a year of being a member of a gun club.

I need to get in better financial shape. I need a new hobby.

 

[Zenith]

You are laughable. Someone breaks into my house, the house I know like the back of my hand, I have the advantage. I can hide and ambush them with any sort of weapon. To say that a gun is the only useful weapon is utter BS. Hell, there are circumstances where not even a gun is going to save you, even if you're Special Forces. Also, you're assuming that you know exactly what weapon an attacker has. You seem to forget that different places have very different laws. Your shoot first mentality could very well get you in far more trouble than the robber would be in.

If anyone has been playing too many video games or even watching too much TV, it's you. I'm done though. Rational discussion with mindless gun nuts is about as futile as discourse with religions fundies.

I would refrain from posting personal insults when a moderator posted above you.

Considering that you suggested that a golf club would be an adequate weapon to protect oneself from an intruder, I think you're the one who's lost touch with reality. What exactly do you propose doing if the intruder has a firearm? What exactly do you propose doing if they can fight with whatever weapon they brought better than you can with a golf club? What do you propose doing if your ambush doesn't work out? Why don't you link me to cases where your fantasy of launching an ambush against an intruder worked out?

If you see logic as mindlessness, go ahead. If you wish to use a golf club as your sole means of home defense, go ahead. If you wish to leave this thread failing to comprehend or let alone process the opinions given to you, go ahead. If you wish to insult people who disagree with you and run away when faced with logic that debunks your claims, go ahead. I'd consider them all unwise choices, but I guess that's just the braying of a mindless gun nut. You will not be missed.

 

[ExigeEvan]

You are laughable. Someone breaks into my house, the house I know like the back of my hand, I have the advantage. I can hide and ambush them with any sort of weapon.

It's a house, not jungle.

To say that a gun is the only useful weapon is utter BS. Hell, there are circumstances where not even a gun is going to save you, even if you're Special Forces.

They only useful weapon against a gun, is a gun. Or a bigger explosion. It's how wars have been fought for over a century now.

Also, you're assuming that you know exactly what weapon an attacker has. You seem to forget that different places have very different laws. Your shoot first mentality could very well get you in far more trouble than the robber would be in.

You seem to forget that illegal guns exist in every country regardless of the law.

If anyone has been playing too many video games or even watching too much TV, it's you. I'm done though. Rational discussion with mindless gun nuts is about as futile as discourse with religions fundies.

And you've proven yourself to be what, a master of un-armed combat and urban warfare?

 

[Quackjack]

It's beautiful...

When I'm ready I'm gonna get on of these. Any Full Auto versions for sometime in the future out there?

 

[Michael88]

If anyone has been playing too many video games or even watching too much TV, it's you. I'm done though. Rational discussion with mindless gun nuts is about as futile as discourse with religions fundies.

Ah yes, I love it when people start to fling insults and call other people mindless when they run out of arguments. Makes victory all the sweeter.

Anyway.....back to topic.

Any Full Auto versions for sometime in the future out there?

I'm not from the US but as far as I know you can't buy full-auto rifles since... 20 years or so? That means you'd need to buy a pre-ban full auto rifle (plus the paperwork and stuff) and you know what? They are freakin' expensive. Last rifle capable of fully automatic fire I've seen sold for 20k bucks or so....
Thanks to the ban they're collectors items.

 

[Quackjack]

Wow. Ain't got that kinda money. I'll pass. Bolt/Semi it is.