Religion is contrived

[Pako]

Well maybe it was your point, but it wasn't mine.



Yes. My life could be better. My life would be better if I believed right now that I would be rich tomorrow. Weights would be lifted - things would look really good. But then it wouldn't be true would it?

My life would be better today if I believed that I would live forever. I wouldn't have to worry about dieing - I could experience everything I wanted to in due time. I could be assured the ability to see the potential of mankind. That would be great!! Too bad it's not true.

My life would be better today if I believed that could do no wrong because I was supernaturally guided by crystal forces beneith the earth. If I believed that the crystals guided my every move to perfection - I wouldn't have to take responsibility for any of my actions and could be assured that they were correct. But of course the crystals aren't there.



My life would be better today if I believed in Jesus Christ. I would believe that I would live forever in heaven in perfect bliss - that I could see loved ones again someday. I would believe that God had a plan for me and that my life would be fruitful and wonderful because he ordained it. That would be a fantastic thing! Think of the reassurance!!

But that doesn't make it true.


The fact of the matter is that to fool myself into thinking that I will see dead relatives again, or to fool myself into thinking that God is watching over me, or to fool myself into thinking I have an eternal soul is unjustified. I have no evidence to suggest that those things are true. I'm not going to believe them for the sake of believing them.

To believe that something will happen simply because I wish for it to happen is to dilute my perception of reality. It is not a valid argumnt.


So, I restate my original claim:


Just because Chrsit makes you feel good about life, just because your religion promises you enternal bliss or 70 virgins or whatever it promises you after you die, doesn't mean that it is true. I might want it to be true really really really really bad, but that doesn't make it true.

You are absolutely correct! Just because you believe something won't make it real. Placebo effect doesn't apply to faith.

Take for example this little experiment that a group of people did to see if the effects of prayer could be measured. Forgive me as I don't have the references or details, but there were two groups of patients. One group was prayed for unknowingly and the other group was the control group. Again, the praying was done without the knowledge of the patients. The conclusion of the experiment showed that the group that was prayed for had a much higher recovery rate than the group that didn't get prayed for. Again, forgive me for not having the references or details, but the percentage was drastically better, not by just a little margin. This experiment was repeated and produced the same results.

So yeah...

I'm glad to know that you can see how Christ can enrich your life and recognize the fact that He has enriched mine.

 

[Danoff]

I'm glad to know that you can see how Christ can enrich your life and recognize the fact that He has enriched mine.

I see how if I tricked myself into believing in Christ I might be happier. But if I believed everything that would make me happier was true - I would be a very diluted and weird individual who had no hold on reality.

For example, you would probably be happier if you believed that you personally were going to heaven regardless of your actions here on earth. So you could feel free to sin and still get into heaven. That way you'd get all the rewards and none of the sacrifices - but of course that wouldn't necessarily be true either. It might make you happier though, so feel free to believe that too.

If you decide to tell me that it wouldn't make you happier then you're not being very objective in this discussion. Just pretend that you're God's favorite and he doesn't really care what you do - he still wants you in heaven, he doesn't even care if you repent.

Take for example this little experiment that a group of people did to see if the effects of prayer could be measured. Forgive me as I don't have the references or details, but there were two groups of patients. One group was prayed for unknowingly and the other group was the control group. Again, the praying was done without the knowledge of the patients. The conclusion of the experiment showed that the group that was prayed for had a much higher recovery rate than the group that didn't get prayed for. Again, forgive me for not having the references or details, but the percentage was drastically better, not by just a little margin. This experiment was repeated and produced the same results.

...and this proves? That mental attitude about your recovery has a lot to do with how well you recover? I think that's already been proven. People with a possitive attitude recover better.

That doesn't mean that the people in your example had a positive attitude for a real reason.

 

[DemonSeed]

it is kind of pointless to questions someone's faith by asking him to rationally explain it, isn't it?
correct me if i'm wrong, but religions are based on dogma, you do not question or try to understand it, you just believe in it. all the arguments about it will always end in believer saying something like 'you don't believe so you don't understand.god is everywhere! and he loves you, you will see!' and the rational-type going 'ha,ha. that is just impossible. how can you believe it? prove it!'

faith protects from the unknown - and unknown is the fear. the answers faith gives are not exactly scientific, but the unknown that people fear is not scientific either. there is no life after death in science, so the science can't provide any answers for questions about it. but there is a loss of loved ones and wondering what happend to them. religions will give answer to this. and to many similar questions.

religion is creation of mankind. it is contrived, but its because civilization as a whole is contrived, planned so carefully that seems unnatural. nature on is own wouldnt build a single village, humans do it.

religion has a purpose, which for many people out there it still holds. they need religion. we created multitude of much more useless things than religion, actually religion is maybe one of the most useful creations of our species. but if we werent here, there would be no religion, and not a single god.

 

[Danoff]

religion is creation of mankind. it is contrived, but its because civilization as a whole is contrived, planned so carefully that seems unnatural. nature on is own wouldnt build a single village, humans do it.

Human beings are part of nature so everything we create is natural. Civilization is a natural occurance.

 

[DemonSeed]

Human beings are part of nature so everything we create is natural. Civilization is a natural occurance.

i do not consider humans a force of nature. by natural i understand occuring, happening in nature. i reckon that in line with rules of empiric reasearch, occurence of intelligence [as a general term to describe our mental capabilities]
among species inhabiting this planet is a minute fractions of a point. so, being seriously academic here, you could say that in nature there is no such thing as intelligent species. and you could prove it

 

[Pako]

I see how if I tricked myself into believing in Christ I might be happier. But if I believed everything that would make me happier was true - I would be a very diluted and weird individual who had no hold on reality.

For example, you would probably be happier if you believed that you personally were going to heaven regardless of your actions here on earth. So you could feel free to sin and still get into heaven. That way you'd get all the rewards and none of the sacrifices - but of course that wouldn't necessarily be true either. It might make you happier though, so feel free to believe that too.

If you decide to tell me that it wouldn't make you happier then you're not being very objective in this discussion. Just pretend that you're God's favorite and he doesn't really care what you do - he still wants you in heaven, he doesn't even care if you repent.



...and this proves? That mental attitude about your recovery has a lot to do with how well you recover? I think that's already been proven. People with a possitive attitude recover better.

That doesn't mean that the people in your example had a positive attitude for a real reason.

Why would their mental attitude be any different than the other group? They didn't know they were being prayed for......

 

[Pako]

Found some additional details, it better summarizes what I said about the experiment as well as examples of others:


Scientific Research of Prayer: Can the Power of Prayer Be Proven?
(sorry I'm directing you to another site....probably a Christian site even....PS)


Or how about this sexular source, the BBC News:
Does Prayer Work?


Other source links, mostly sexular, found here:
http://psychology.designerz.com/psychology-psychology-religion-religious-experience-prayer.php

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Take for example this little experiment that a group of people did to see if the effects of prayer could be measured. Forgive me as I don't have the references or details, but there were two groups of patients.

Pako, literally millions and millions of people around the globe prayed for Pope John Pauls swift recovery...if anyone deserved divine intervention, surely it would be a Pope who has dedicated his entire life to the Church, but alas...he died just the same.

If it doesn't work for a Pope, then it's never going to work for someone like me

BTW: No References, and no Details means anecdotal, and there is a ton of that stuff going around

 

[Swift]

Pako, literally millions and millions of people around the globe prayed for Pope John Pauls swift recovery...if anyone deserved divine intervention, surely it would be a Pope who has dedicated his entire life to the Church, but alas...he died just the same.

If it doesn't work for a Pope, then it's never going to work for someone like me

BTW: No References, and no Details means anecdotal, and there is a ton of that stuff going around

Well, to be honest. EVERYONE is going to die. So if it's your time it's your time. Period.

BTW, the pope is no better then you or I. So we are as deserving of God's intervention as anyone else.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Well, to be honest. EVERYONE is going to die. So if it's your time it's your time. Period.

BTW, the pope is no better then you or I. So we are as deserving of God's intervention as anyone else.

My point was...Prayer don't work

And oh yes...he was a LOT better than me (self control, patience, wisdom,empathy etc etc he wasn't elected Pope because the hat fit him ), but to die at 85, when you live your life cleanly according to the great book, is not a good advert...I'll probably out live him myself.

If you die when it is time for you to die..period, as you say, then surely praying won't make any difference, which is kind of what I'm trying to say

 

[Danoff]

Why would their mental attitude be any different than the other group? They didn't know they were being prayed for......

Ah. I didn't read carefully enough. Was that a peer reviewed study? Which journal did the report appear in?

I do not consider humans a force of nature.

Why not? Human beings evovled from nature and are natural species of this planet. We weren't put here by something else, so we must be quite natural.

by natural i understand occuring, happening in nature.

What doesn't happen in nature? We exist in nature, the universe is nature.

i reckon that in line with rules of empiric reasearch, occurence of intelligence [as a general term to describe our mental capabilities]
among species inhabiting this planet is a minute fractions of a point.

True, but it does represent a minute fraction of a point.

so, being seriously academic here, you could say that in nature there is no such thing as intelligent species. and you could prove it

What? Human beings are an intelligent species and we are classified as a natural animal (kingdom animalia). You just proved yourself wrong in the previous quote as you said that intelligent species constitute a minute fraction of a point - and then you said that the constitute zero. I don't see how that makes sense.


Human beings sprang forth from nature through natural processes (natural selection - nice that it has the word natural in it for me). We are a naturally occuring creature - no artificial entity put us here. So everything we do is natural. If we pick up a stick to knock fruit down from a tree (like a monkey might) that is natural. If we build a mud hut (like a bird builds a nest) that is natural. If we ride on horses (like some fish ride on sharks) that is natural. If we build an atomic bomb (like... well we're the only ones who do that) that is a natural occurence.

Intelligence, space travel, civilization, art, poetry, music, every single thing the mind does is a naturally occuring event. Even posting a response to someone on GTP is a natural event.

 

[Swift]

My point was...Prayer don't work

And oh yes...he was a LOT better than me (self control, patience, wisdom,empathy etc etc he wasn't elected Pope because the hat fit him ), but to die at 85, when you live your life cleanly according to the great book, is not a good advert...I'll probably out live him myself.

If you die when it is time for you to die..period, as you say, then surely praying won't make any difference, which is kind of what I'm trying to say

LOL, uh, nope. How is the Pope better then anyone? He was simply elected. Much like our president or other officials are elected. That doesn't make him better.

And you are limiting prayer to extending life. 85 years old is pretty old and above almost every national average for life expectancy. What about prayer for finances, needs being met, jobs, friends and loved ones finding God. Prayer isn't just for when you're sick or you need something. Prayer is an all the time thing that can enhance your entire existance.

You can choice to not use this tool. But that's up to you.

 

[Duke]

What he's saying is that the sheer number of signatures on the petition, so to speak, should have carried some weight and done something to improve the Pope's health.

But of course it probably didn't align with that "mysterious plan" bit.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

What about prayer for finances, needs being met

So I could pray to win the lottery...hmm, but like the millions of others who already do that, I expect I'd be dissapointed. Anyway I thought praying for personal gain wasn't exactly a good thing.

jobs, friends and loved ones finding God.

Getting a new job through hard work and education...or prayer...wow seems too easy

 

[Pako]

Pako, literally millions and millions of people around the globe prayed for Pope John Pauls swift recovery...if anyone deserved divine intervention, surely it would be a Pope who has dedicated his entire life to the Church, but alas...he died just the same.

If it doesn't work for a Pope, then it's never going to work for someone like me

BTW: No References, and no Details means anecdotal, and there is a ton of that stuff going around

The dude was old. Days of 900 year old moses' are over. As Swift pointed out.

 

[Pako]

Ah. I didn't read carefully enough. Was that a peer reviewed study? Which journal did the report appear in?
*snip*

Does it have to be a particular type of journal? I'm seeing lots of Psychology journals that are reporting similar results.

 

[Danoff]

Does it have to be a particular type of journal? I'm seeing lots of Psychology journals that are reporting similar results.

You're seeing peer reviewed psychology journals who are reporting te benefits of third party prayer? I'd like to see it. It doesn't have to a particular subject of journal.

 

[Swift]

So I could pray to win the lottery...hmm, but like the millions of others who already do that, I expect I'd be dissapointed. Anyway I thought praying for personal gain wasn't exactly a good thing.

Getting a new job through hard work and education...or prayer...wow seems too easy

You obviously don't understand the premise of prayer. We are always supposed to do all we can. But there are some things that we simply can't do or have no control over. That's when we pray for things like that. Like, getting into college after working very hard in high school. Or getting a job after an interview. Not getting free money that you didn't earn or just giving you a job.

Prayer is about more then that as well. It's about having a conversation with God. But since you don't believe in God, what's the point of me explaining it?

 

[Pako]

You're seeing peer reviewed psychology journals who are reporting te benefits of third party prayer? I'd like to see it. It doesn't have to a particular subject of journal.

The research was published Oct. 25, 1999, in the Archives
of Internal Medicine. The American Medical Association
publishes the internal medicine journal.

 

[GT4Mania]

So you're not going to be giving me any documented proof that something you asked me to "explain" actually exists?

I come from Damascus, Syria. Though I did not go there, my parents went, and lots of friends. As for many touristic attractions, there's no panflet and no web site, unfortunately.

Errr... Has to do with what?

I knew my way of posting would create confusion. This had to do with when you said you did not believe in God. Anybody can decide not to believe about any story that happened before their birth, just like I could decide not to believe about all the great explorers, etc. If you re-read my last post now, you'll get my point

You think it's perfectly reasonable that God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" to people who do not speak that language? Interesting.

I'm afraid you did not get my point here either. I meant that these two words were probably very propular across the world, just like english nowadays. Also, somewhere in my posts, i said that people could also have been bilingual or trilingual. Again, is this what keeps you from believing?

Let me ask you - what comes before Alpha in the Greek alphabet? What comes after Omega? If God is the Alpha and Omega, what comes before and after him?

You answered to your question : nothing comes before alpha, nothing after omega. Therefore, nothing comes before God, nothing comes after God.

Just to get this straight now... you're saying that science is the work of Satan?

And yet you're not exactly Amish are you? Unless the Amish are big on internet use. Heaven forbid you ever have to visit a hospital.

Hehe though I don't know what Amish is, I'm sure I'm not one of them, since I study in Biomedical Sciences (human body) and I love science. I don't think science if from Satan, and I love science. I just say that science will never be able to explain everything. For the third time, if science explains everything in the Bible, then miracles are not miracles anymore. Sorry for repeating.

Hmm. You're also not answering the "fisnazzle" point.

I'm sorry, what's a fisnazzle? I'm looking to answer if you care that much . Also, can your realize how smart Satan is now? I hate repeating myself but if it is necessary : he will never want you to be convinced. Any way is a good way for him.

Yes, the sizes are in the Bible. No, the boat is not big enough to accommodate two of EVERY species on Earth. No, the species on it would not be able to survive.

Basic water cycles here - if enough water to cover the entire surface of the Earth were to evaporate, it would become water vapour 22.5 times the volume. Some quick mathematical jiggery-pokery (ignoring the fact that Windows Calculator was obviously created by Satan) shows that this requires the Earth's atmosphere to be 25% water vapour.

As I'm sure you know, the Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, less than 1% water vapour and the rest is argon, helium, carbon dioxide, xenon and others in trace amounts.

So NO. The water could not have just evaporated...


Man wrote the Bible. Where we differ is that you think God made them do it and I think they they wrote it themselves. This is why the flood story stands up to no examination at all - a five year old can spot the flaws in it - and why you're now backing into a position where you say it's the message that matters, not the technicalities. The message? Piss the merciful creator off and he'll destroy your planet's surface... Nice message. And you want to live with this dude forever?

By the way, many many animals can live in water, other than fish. If you convert the sizes in the Bible (let's say the lenght), it makes 160 meters. Titanic was 260 meters long. Titanic had approx. 3100 people on it. I don't know how many animal species exist/existed, but most of them were smaller than humans = space for more than 3100. Humans on the Titanic were super luxury rich people (even 3rd class), and humans are humans : they need space, rooms, washrooms, privacy, ballrooms, luxury, etc. Animals need food and no space : they won't argue with you about animals rights if you put them in a small space. Some of them will get angry, not more than that. A human NEEDS room, you can't toss them up. You can squeeze a bit with animals. My point is, I DON'T KNOW how many species or animals there was, but a three stories boat (Genesis 6, also), 160 meters long is enough.

About the evaporation, what I meant was a joke, but it did not sound(look) like that. Sorry. It's obvious to anyone that the quantites of water that fell (enough to cover the tallest mountains) could not have evaporated. Back to the show I watched : this is exactly where they were stuck. So this is why they said it's impossible.

Of course the story stands to no examination at all. Just like DemonSpeed said, you can't ask me to explain HOW all this was possible, because it is MEANT TO BE UNEXPLAINABLE. How can somebody resurrect? Can't explain. This is faith. You believe or not. Don't ask for proofs. The guys at TLC reconstructed the story and said it only took place in Mesopotamia ( I think). Why? They noticed what science could not explain (the flaws, as you say) a bigger flood. I say it's the message that matters, not the technicalities, and that's not backing up : Satan makes a weak man (we're all weak men, don't take it personally) stumble on details and questions, and makes him rely on his intelligence. That's satan's way of fooling us. Making us rely on ourselves and our intelligence will blind us and prevent us from having faith.

About the message, you got it wrong. God won't destroy the planet if you "piss him off". The message is : God LOVES you and gives you a CHANCE to repent and leave Satan behind. (notice LOVES AND CHANCE). He's merciful. Also, he is able of anger and destruction. After all the time he gave men, they all said no, because they were fooled by Satan. THEN he destructed what was on the earth. God is love (1 John 4:16) and compassion before being destructive and angry. Just like a dad warns his son before getting mad, God warns man before Christ's 2nd coming (the flood). Again, God gives a chance. God is not waiting on every mistake we do to punish us, and he understand we all make mistakes because we are sinners and we can never be perfect on this earth.

Off-topic, but I thought it made sense : I'd rather live with a man that can destroy me (even if in heaven, we will live HAPPILY with God), rather than being destroyed by him and burning in hell for eternity.

Can you see the words before you post them? Do you know how ridiculous that last sentence sounded?

If I made a pencil drawing of my girlfriend's image and it ended up looking like a grumpy snowman, I'd be either crap or an abstract artist. And in either case, it would not be her image.

I noticed the mistake I made right after I posted the post, and I corrected it... Sorry you read too fast! I'm pretty sure you got my point, as nobody is dumb enough to argue about something like that.

The difference with your gf's image is that YOURS might end up like that because you can't draw well. Whereas God created us NOT EXACTLY LIKE HIM, BUT WITH RESEMBLANCE, ON PURPOSE. A crappy artist sucks, so that's not on purpose. An abstract artists does things that don't look AT ALL like reality. God did that on purpose, and we DO resemble to him.

Again, what I think or don't think, what I want to be true or hope isn't, what I can accept and what I can't doesn't matter when it's actually true.

Taking half of everything I own is a punishment, is it not?

What you can rationally explain is everything on this earth, everything that's visible. 2 Corinthians 4:18 says that everything that's visible is temporary, while everything that's not visible lasts forever. Rationaly, truth is what you can explain. Satan's definition of truth is blinding people and letting them see only what's on earth (temporary things).

So it doesn't say "XI: Thou Shalt Not Top Thineself" anywhere then, as I asked?

I don't recall having read anything like that, no. Would it be logic if God asks us not to kill, but lets us suicide? Great, if I hate someone, I'd arrange his suicide, and I'm safe? I think being God's temple clearly explains how you should respect your body and life. God gave us our life so we can live it to the fullest. You don't destroy what God gives you. THIS was written in the Bible (1 Corinthians 3:17)

They put themselves in a position to die. They chose to put themselves in that position. They have CHOSEN to end their life.

A kid hangs himself because he thinks his exam grades will bring shame on his parents. He's CHOSEN to end his life too. He also thinks that he can save other people by ending his life. Difference?

How can this kid save another's person life? How can you save another person's life by hanging yourself? Once again, depending on the person's intention, saving a life is a great act. If you jump in front of a bullet saying : "I hope I die", this is sin. If you jump in front of a bullet and say : "I hope I don't die, but if I do, at least I saved a life", this is not sin. There's a difference.

"Do Romans get drunk?" What?

You said that Christians do not take drugs. Alcohol IS a drug. By partaking of it EVER you are not a Christian, by YOUR argument.

God did not say YOU HAVE to drink wine. I don't drink wine (mostly because I hate the taste) but this does not make me a non believer. God looks for your heart, your intentions, your deeds, not your habits, rituals, etc. Drinking wine is part of a "ritual" (I'm not a Roman, correct me if I'm wrong). If you do this from your heart and believe in it, it is great. But nowadays, these become habits and non-sense to those who do them, because it's repetitive. God hates hypocrysy (when you worship him not by your heart, because you feel you have to).

Alcohol IS a drug, yes. As long as you don't destroy your body with it, and as long as you're not addicted to it, you're safe. I stated Paul's letters saying you can do anything but don't let anything win you. This is why the best way not to get attached is to stay far from it = not to try it. Doing anything also does not mean to destroy your body.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

The difference with your gf's image is that YOURS might end up like that because you can't draw well. Whereas God created us NOT EXACTLY LIKE HIM, BUT WITH RESEMBLANCE, ON PURPOSE. A crappy artist sucks, so that's not on purpose. An abstract artists does things that don't look AT ALL like reality. God did that on purpose, and we DO resemble to him.

Ok, so Man was created in God's image, therefore by that logic God is a Man and not a woman.
Woman was created from Adam's rib...( a neat trick that many a teenager has tried ) but the thing is men and women happen to have the same number of ribs, so how did this story start? Shouldn't women have one more rib than man?
Female

Male

PS Only the Orang-utan has 12 ribs like man, so maybe we were made from a monkeys rib as they only have 11 Oh look.. I sneaked a Darwin joke in there

 

[sicbeing]

By the way, many many animals can live in water, other than fish. If you convert the sizes in the Bible (let's say the lenght), it makes 160 meters. Titanic was 260 meters long. Titanic had approx. 3100 people on it. I don't know how many animal species exist/existed, but most of them were smaller than humans = space for more than 3100. Humans on the Titanic were super luxury rich people (even 3rd class), and humans are humans : they need space, rooms, washrooms, privacy, ballrooms, luxury, etc. Animals need food and no space : they won't argue with you about animals rights if you put them in a small space. Some of them will get angry, not more than that. A human NEEDS room, you can't toss them up. You can squeeze a bit with animals. My point is, I DON'T KNOW how many species or animals there was, but a three stories boat (Genesis 6, also), 160 meters long is enough.

yea...

Every single species you see here today were on that boat, including dinosaurs of every type, birds of all types, monkeys.... etc. And i read somewhere that in order for bacteria to have survived this, every disease would have been on that boat.

You obviously don't understand the premise of prayer. We are always supposed to do all we can. But there are some things that we simply can't do or have no control over. That's when we pray for things like that. Like, getting into college after working very hard in high school. Or getting a job after an interview. Not getting free money that you didn't earn or just giving you a job.

Prayer doesn't help you in job interviews, or getting a job, or blah blah a job.

Those are odds, odds of how you present yourself compared to other people, or the odds that an opening is even available. Maybe he had no intend of hiring you at all because he already knew who he wanted for sure? Think prayer is gonna help change his mind? I think ud have a better chance begging than praying.

All this prayer stuff that helps u in ways that u cant help yourself is all just odds or decisions NOT made by you (he has the right to choose you and not choose you, the world doesnt revolve around you and your praying, this is an actual human being making those kinds of decisions for you.)

 

[Tacet_Blue]

yea...
Every single species you see here today were on that boat, including dinosaurs of every type, birds of all types, monkeys.... etc. And i read somewhere that in order for bacteria to have survived this, every disease would have been on that boat.

And there'd have to be quite an arboritorium on board as well Some massive greenhouses and a nice little dark spot for all the fungi too

 

[Pako]

*snip*

Prayer doesn't help you in job interviews, or getting a job, or blah blah a job.

Those are odds, odds of how you present yourself compared to other people, or the odds that an opening is even available. Maybe he had no intend of hiring you at all because he already knew who he wanted for sure? Think prayer is gonna help change his mind? I think ud have a better chance begging than praying.

All this prayer stuff that helps u in ways that u cant help yourself is all just odds or decisions NOT made by you (he has the right to choose you and not choose you, the world doesnt revolve around you and your praying, this is an actual human being making those kinds of decisions for you.)

Can't prove or disprove. This is certainly your opinion, but not fact. God will always answer your prayer, but he doesn't always give you the answer you're looking for.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Can't prove or disprove. This is certainly your opinion, but not fact. God will always answer your prayer, but he doesn't always give you the answer you're looking for.

Can you understand my confusion though Pako, when you say that the Pope was old and going to die anyway, so praying wouldn't have made any difference.

Surely there is always hope, and that is where prayer comes in.

 

[Pako]

Can you understand my confusion though Pako, when you say that the Pope was old and going to die anyway, so praying wouldn't have made any difference.

Surely there is always hope, and that is where prayer comes in.

Don't know if it would have made a difference or not. Maybe it did, but we don't know 'how' the prayers helped. I could give you "maybe's" until my fingertips were raw, but that wouldn't 'prove' anything.

 

[Famine]

I come from Damascus, Syria. Though I did not go there, my parents went, and lots of friends. As for many touristic attractions, there's no panflet and no web site, unfortunately.

You said to me "Explain this". And now you don't even know what it is I'M meant to be explaining. And this is a deficiency in science?

I knew my way of posting would create confusion. This had to do with when you said you did not believe in God. Anybody can decide not to believe about any story that happened before their birth, just like I could decide not to believe about all the great explorers, etc. If you re-read my last post now, you'll get my point

No, I got your point - even though it doesn't actually exist in reality since all of the things you mentioned have multiple independant sources and corroborative information. I was wondering what it had to do with my post which made you number it so.

I'm afraid you did not get my point here either. I meant that these two words were probably very propular across the world, just like english nowadays. Also, somewhere in my posts, i said that people could also have been bilingual or trilingual. Again, is this what keeps you from believing?

Yes. The only reason I don't believe in God is a language issue

It's a symptom of a disease. Using "probably" and "maybe" and "perhaps" to justify glaring factual and contextual errors. Note the thread title again? "Religion is Contrived"...

You answered to your question : nothing comes before alpha, nothing after omega. Therefore, nothing comes before God, nothing comes after God.

Yep. And you just answered it for me as well.

What comes before God? Nothing. What comes after God? Nothing.

Your words. Yet you find it almost impossible to "accept" the slightly familiar:

What came before the Universe? Nothing. What comes after the Universe? Nothing.

Hehe though I don't know what Amish is, I'm sure I'm not one of them, since I study in Biomedical Sciences (human body) and I love science. I don't think science if from Satan, and I love science. I just say that science will never be able to explain everything. For the third time, if science explains everything in the Bible, then miracles are not miracles anymore. Sorry for repeating.

So science cannot explain things because you don't want it to?

I ask again, what has the truth got to do with your ability or desire to accept or believe it?

I'm sorry, what's a fisnazzle? I'm looking to answer if you care that much . Also, can your realize how smart Satan is now? I hate repeating myself but if it is necessary : he will never want you to be convinced. Any way is a good way for him.

You're SO close to getting it now...

You wanted to know if danoof had ever considered where his Soul goes. I asked if you'd ever wondered where your fisnazzle goes. The questions are exactly analogous and make as much sense as each other.

Fisnazzle doesn't exist. It's a word I made up on the spot to describe absolutely nothing. You've never wondered where it goes when you die, because you haven't got one, someone else made it up and it doesn't exist. Getting it?

By the way, many many animals can live in water, other than fish. If you convert the sizes in the Bible (let's say the lenght), it makes 160 meters. Titanic was 260 meters long. Titanic had approx. 3100 people on it. I don't know how many animal species exist/existed, but most of them were smaller than humans = space for more than 3100. Humans on the Titanic were super luxury rich people (even 3rd class), and humans are humans : they need space, rooms, washrooms, privacy, ballrooms, luxury, etc. Animals need food and no space : they won't argue with you about animals rights if you put them in a small space. Some of them will get angry, not more than that. A human NEEDS room, you can't toss them up. You can squeeze a bit with animals. My point is, I DON'T KNOW how many species or animals there was, but a three stories boat (Genesis 6, also), 160 meters long is enough.

Don't know if you've ever been round an angry tiger...

So, you don't know the quantities of things required but you're totally sure something of given, finite dimensions will accommodate everything? Let me help you out - not even if it were ten times the length, width AND height would it have been sufficient.

Thread title again.

About the evaporation, what I meant was a joke, but it did not sound(look) like that. Sorry. It's obvious to anyone that the quantites of water that fell (enough to cover the tallest mountains) could not have evaporated. Back to the show I watched : this is exactly where they were stuck. So this is why they said it's impossible.

Of course the story stands to no examination at all. Just like DemonSpeed said, you can't ask me to explain HOW all this was possible, because it is MEANT TO BE UNEXPLAINABLE. How can somebody resurrect? Can't explain. This is faith. You believe or not. Don't ask for proofs. The guys at TLC reconstructed the story and said it only took place in Mesopotamia ( I think). Why? They noticed what science could not explain (the flaws, as you say) a bigger flood. I say it's the message that matters, not the technicalities, and that's not backing up : Satan makes a weak man (we're all weak men, don't take it personally) stumble on details and questions, and makes him rely on his intelligence. That's satan's way of fooling us. Making us rely on ourselves and our intelligence will blind us and prevent us from having faith.

Right.

So on the one hand we have the Bible as the infallible word of God which is an historical record of events, but on the other we have "oh the details don't matter, it's the message"?

Thread title again.

About the message, you got it wrong. God won't destroy the planet if you "piss him off". The message is : God LOVES you and gives you a CHANCE to repent and leave Satan behind. (notice LOVES AND CHANCE). He's merciful. Also, he is able of anger and destruction. After all the time he gave men, they all said no, because they were fooled by Satan. THEN he destructed what was on the earth. God is love (1 John 4:16) and compassion before being destructive and angry. Just like a dad warns his son before getting mad, God warns man before Christ's 2nd coming (the flood). Again, God gives a chance. God is not waiting on every mistake we do to punish us, and he understand we all make mistakes because we are sinners and we can never be perfect on this earth.

Merciful?

He wiped out the entire land animal population of a 24,000 mile circumference planet. What, he was only able to find EIGHT people who agreed with him, so he killed everything else?

Merciful? Sounds like a spoilt kid to me.

I don't recall having read anything like that, no. Would it be logic if God asks us not to kill, but lets us suicide? Great, if I hate someone, I'd arrange his suicide, and I'm safe? I think being God's temple clearly explains how you should respect your body and life. God gave us our life so we can live it to the fullest. You don't destroy what God gives you. THIS was written in the Bible (1 Corinthians 3:17)

God gives you animals.

How can this kid save another's person life? How can you save another person's life by hanging yourself? Once again, depending on the person's intention, saving a life is a great act. If you jump in front of a bullet saying : "I hope I die", this is sin. If you jump in front of a bullet and say : "I hope I don't die, but if I do, at least I saved a life", this is not sin. There's a difference.

He thinks he can save lives in his messed-up teenager brain. Every teenager has a messed-up teenager brain. It's down to hormones - hormones which you believe God put there. Yet you think that God will punish a messed-up teenager for being what God made him.


People who jump in front of cars to push kids out of the way aren't thinking about their own deaths. If they were, they wouldn't do it. They are resigning themselves to the fact that they are going to relinquish their life, voluntarily, to save another life.

Relinquish their life voluntarily...

God did not say YOU HAVE to drink wine. I don't drink wine (mostly because I hate the taste) but this does not make me a non believer. God looks for your heart, your intentions, your deeds, not your habits, rituals, etc. Drinking wine is part of a "ritual" (I'm not a Roman, correct me if I'm wrong). If you do this from your heart and believe in it, it is great. But nowadays, these become habits and non-sense to those who do them, because it's repetitive. God hates hypocrysy (when you worship him not by your heart, because you feel you have to).

Alcohol IS a drug, yes. As long as you don't destroy your body with it, and as long as you're not addicted to it, you're safe. I stated Paul's letters saying you can do anything but don't let anything win you. This is why the best way not to get attached is to stay far from it = not to try it. Doing anything also does not mean to destroy your body.

So you can do drugs and be a Christian as long as you're not addicted to it?

Heaven's Gate took drugs as part of a ritual, did it from their heart and believed in it. They lived in a commune to practise their religion. They also killed themselves.

 

[sicbeing]

i have got one that no one can explain

Ok so god decides to make a world and so he puts down forth adam, blabh blah skip skip heres eve, skip skip skip heres death and disease.

Ok so there WAS a period before death.

Lets go back a bit so i can get out what my point is. God is the ONLY being that can exist outside of time, he does not abide by the rules of time, he was never created, he just was always there and will always be there.

Now, god made time for us, we cannot fathem a world without time.

Now, why would God ORIGIONALLY make time, if there was no death, no end? And when he made death, is that when he implented time? i dont think so because the reason he created the stars was so man could tell time and have something to go by. if i remember correctly.

so yea question is derailing this thread once again but the question is "Why was time origionally put here if there was no end to life?"

 

[Duke]

And there'd have to be quite an arboritorium on board as well Some massive greenhouses and a nice little dark spot for all the fungi too

 

[Swift]

so yea question is derailing this thread once again but the question is "Why was time origionally put here if there was no end to life?"

Well, you answered your own question. But why would death be the only reason for time?