Religion is contrived

[sicbeing]

because, without death there is no end to life, so why have time?

 

[Swift]

because, without death there is no end to life, so why have time?

Right, there is no other reason to measure how long you've been somewhere or doing something except that we die? That sounds rather ignorant to me. How about to simply know how many days have gone by? How old you child is? How long it's been since you've had an oil change. I don't judge time by the date of my death.

 

[sicbeing]

oh i get you now, nvm then

 

[Swift]

yea...
Prayer doesn't help you in job interviews, or getting a job, or blah blah a job.

Those are odds, odds of how you present yourself compared to other people, or the odds that an opening is even available. Maybe he had no intend of hiring you at all because he already knew who he wanted for sure? Think prayer is gonna help change his mind? I think ud have a better chance begging than praying.

All this prayer stuff that helps u in ways that u cant help yourself is all just odds or decisions NOT made by you (he has the right to choose you and not choose you, the world doesnt revolve around you and your praying, this is an actual human being making those kinds of decisions for you.)

See, here's the deal. When we do all we can to prepare ourselves for a specific task, that's when we ask God to come in and do what we can't.

You're exactly right, those are decisions that I can't directly effect. This is why I ask for God to come into the situation. Actually, I want him in all my situations, but anyway.... If it'll be good for me to have that Job, God will see to it that I do. If not, I KNOW that God has something better for my down the road. I'm living that testimony right now.

Prayer does work and prayer does change things. As Pako said, you may not get the answer you want, but you ALWAYS get an answer.

 

[DemonSeed]

What? Human beings are an intelligent species and we are classified as a natural animal (kingdom animalia). You just proved yourself wrong in the previous quote as you said that intelligent species constitute a minute fraction of a point - and then you said that the constitute zero. I don't see how that makes sense.

in modern science, if something occurs 5 or less times in 100, you can say it does not occur. error margin or whatever is the english name for it. anyway, this is off-topic in this thread, and was only a part of my opinion on thread subject, so there is not point in discussing it here. i do not consider civilisation natural, you do, that's all.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Prayer does work and prayer does change things. As Pako said, you may not get the answer you want, but you ALWAYS get an answer.

Read that back yourself

How can that be called "working" you pray for something but you don't actually get what you ask for...you said earlier that it doesn't matter whether people pray or not, some outcomes are inevitable. That's so funny. Pray for a neon pink sky, see how far you get, or pray that you sprout wings

The link to the paper Pako provided is a little bit dodgy to say the least...The sample used is only 363 and that includes control.
The error factor built into a sample of this size is over 10%. Assuming that there are equal numbers in the control as there are in the active. Then there are 181 in the active and the error is 1 over root subject...which in the case is + or - 7.4%, a spread of nearly 15%...quite high!
It also doesn't give any details as to how many people in that sample had positive results, or indeed how many in the control sample had positive results. It doesn't give details as to how many in the active group had negative results...in fact it gives NO details
As a scientific paper, it is laughable...you would have to try harder to get an aspirin approved

Christians seem to choose what they believe, based on what makes them feel good, without any regard for truth or fact

ie I don't want to be related to a bacteria, so I think that is false....
I don't like the idea of life without meaning, so I will invent heaven...
Truth is not based on personal opinion...

I had to laugh at the lower blood pressure group as well...lower than who? Have you seen the Reverend Ian Paisley Low blood pressure ...sure

I could take a group of Aethiest's that all train in the Gym regularly and compare their blood pressure to a group of hard line Christians, that pray every day, and use those stats to "Prove" that praying raises your blood pressure

Edit: Sample is 393...my bad...that makes little difference to the figures though. Control 196 1/root sample = +-7.1% a spread of 14.2%.
It seems that I have researched this paper more than the author bothered to...

Edit 2: Speaking of the author, I thought I check out who she is.
Well, far from being a scientist..she is a Pastor at a Community Church and has only written one paper. She is not a Doctor, Professor, or has ever had any peer reviewed works published...
Debra A Williams
Pako, you'll have to come up with better than that If that's all it takes to convince you...then have a look a my web page about how you should donate all your money to me...cause I say so

 

[Famine]

in modern science, if something occurs 5 or less times in 100, you can say it does not occur. error margin or whatever is the english name for it.

Err, no.

The 5% value is important in science, but not for that. 5% is the minimum level at which we'll accept that what we are testing for gives the result observed and it's not down to chance. If we plumb our numbers through and get a p (probability) value of 0.06 (6%), we cannot say that it is statistically significant and down to what we're testing.

Only for p<0.05 can you discount chance occurrence.

 

[Swift]

Read that back yourself

How can that be called "working" you pray for something but you don't actually get what you ask for...you said earlier that it doesn't matter whether people pray or not, some outcomes are inevitable. That's so funny. Pray for a neon pink sky, see how far you get, or pray that you sprout wings

The link to the paper Pako provided is a little bit dodgy to say the least...The sample used is only 363 and that includes control.
The error factor built into a sample of this size is over 10%. Assuming that there are equal numbers in the control as there are in the active. Then there are 181 in the active and the error is 1 over root subject...which in the case is + or - 7.4%, a spread of nearly 15%...quite high!
It also doesn't give any details as to how many people in that sample had positive results, or indeed how many in the control sample had positive results. It doesn't give details as to how many in the active group had negative results...in fact it gives NO details
As a scientific paper, it is laughable...you would have to try harder to get an aspirin approved

Christians seem to choose what they believe, based on what makes them feel good, without any regard for truth or fact

ie I don't want to be related to a bacteria, so I think that is false....
I don't like the idea of life without meaning, so I will invent heaven...
Truth is not based on personal opinion...

I had to laugh at the lower blood pressure group as well...lower than who? Have you seen the Reverend Ian Paisley Low blood pressure ...sure

I could take a group of Aethiest's that all train in the Gym regularly and compare their blood pressure to a group of hard line Christians, that pray every day, and use those stats to "Prove" that praying raises your blood pressure

Edit: Sample is 393...my bad...that makes little difference to the figures though. Control 196 1/root sample = +-7.1% a spread of 14.2%.
It seems that I have researched this paper more than the author bothered to...

Edit 2: Speaking of the author, I thought I check out who she is.
Well, far from being a scientist..she is a Pastor at a Community Church and has only written one paper. She is not a Doctor, Professor, or has ever had any peer reviewed works published...
Debra A Williams
Pako, you'll have to come up with better than that If that's all it takes to convince you...then have a look a my web page about how you should donate all your money to me...cause I say so

Again, you simply don't understand how prayer works. Prayer, is not only for getting stuff. Infact, that's the smallest part of it. It's about conversation with God. Now, there will times when there is a need. Like you need a new refridgerator, car, job, healing or whatever. That's when you ask. But it's not like Santa Clause where you just go to him for goodies.

I can see why you don't understand because you don't believe in God. You think that you have the power over your own destiny. That's true, you do. But only a to a certain point. There's things that you can't control, that's where praying for needs comes in. But hey, if you don't get it, that's ok. But it's not about praying to win the lottery or anything. That's just being selfish. I've got plenty of scripture on the subject. But since nobody here considers the bible anything more then a storybook....

 

[sicbeing]

swift u said that with prayer u always get an answer, im gonna assume u mean u always get an outcome.

well duh? even without prayer ull get an outcome.

for example. i pray to have good health. now either which way u go, if u get good health, or bad health, ull say god chose it for you for a reason.... well u HAVE to be one or the other, and u just say that god chose the path for you...

see what im getting at? i could pray, right now, in full belief in god, and pray to wake up on time for work without setting my alarm, now if i wake up late, its because god wanted me to? or maybe its because i didnt set my alarm...?

and dont say god wanted you to learn your lesson and remember to be a responsible person and set your alarm clock either, cuz id just laff at that

 

[Swift]

swift u said that with prayer u always get an answer, im gonna assume u mean u always get an outcome.

well duh? even without prayer ull get an outcome.

for example. i pray to have good health. now either which way u go, if u get good health, or bad health, ull say god chose it for you for a reason.... well u HAVE to be one or the other, and u just say that god chose the path for you...

see what im getting at? i could pray, right now, in full belief in god, and pray to wake up on time for work without setting my alarm, now if i wake up late, its because god wanted me to? or maybe its because i didnt set my alarm...?

and dont say god wanted you to learn your lesson and remember to be a responsible person and set your alarm clock either, cuz id just laff at that

Bad assumption. You always get an answer. You get a yes, no or wait. The problem is most people don't consider wait or no an acceptable answer.

Also, to pray for sometehing that you can do yourself, like setting the alarm, is tempting God. And kinda dumb to be honest.

 

[Duke]

Honestly, "no answer" can't really be construed as an answer. That's like saying "something comes to those who wait". Of course something comes.

 

[Swift]

Honestly, "no answer" can't really be construed as an answer. That's like saying "something comes to those who wait". Of course something comes.

I didn't say no answer. I said that the answers are "yes", "no" or "wait". Most people don't consider "no" or "wait" an answer because they ask upon their own lusts.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Again, you simply don't understand how prayer works. Prayer, is not only for getting stuff. Infact, that's the smallest part of it. It's about conversation with God. Now, there will times when there is a need. Like you need a new refridgerator, car, job, healing or whatever. That's when you ask. But it's not like Santa Clause where you just go to him for goodies.

You are right Swift, I don't understand how prayer works...or to be more accurate, I don't think it does work!

As you try to explain it, these things occur to me.

1 The list of things that you can pray for are restricted to things that were probably going to happen anyway.
2 You shouldn't pray for things that you could do yourself, as you would be "tempting" God. Getting new friends, a job, (these are things you've listed), in fact pretty much anything are things you could do yourself!
3 God's message is don't rely on me , get on with your own life and stop trying to take shortcuts with prayer!

If God's power is infinite, why can't you pray for a set of wings.

I've done a fair bit of looking round for evidence of prayer working in healing etc, and have found nothing of merit. I have found articles that are vague and present no documented case studies, and worse...in the same sentence as they are trying to be objective about prayer, they mention telepathy and telekinesis as being real
Don't get me wrong, I may be a cynic, but I have an open mind...I would like to see evidence, I would like to believe it, but it looks like its wishful thinking.

I can see why you don't understand because you don't believe in God. You think that you have the power over your own destiny. That's true, you do. But only a to a certain point. There's things that you can't control, that's where praying for needs comes in. But hey, if you don't get it, that's ok. But it's not about praying to win the lottery or anything. That's just being selfish.

Just because I don't believe in a Christian God, doesn't mean I don't believe in God, or many Gods

I've got plenty of scripture on the subject. But since nobody here considers the bible anything more then a storybook....

Yep...personally I think Aesops book of Fables is more relevant to 21st century life, and has a valid set of ethics/morals...isn't one of the commandments "don't work on the Sabbath"...hmm...
A lot of Shops, Cinemas, and Pubs might not agree with that, and isn't it listed higher than murder

 

[sicbeing]

Bad assumption. You always get an answer. You get a yes, no or wait. The problem is most people don't consider wait or no an acceptable answer.

Also, to pray for sometehing that you can do yourself, like setting the alarm, is tempting God. And kinda dumb to be honest.

you always get an answer with everything you pray for
you always get an outcome with every descison you make, or action you do

with an answer, you get a yes, no, or wait for an answer
with an outcome, you always get what you want, dont, or you have to wait for the outcome

i dont know but it sounds awful alike to me, except you make it sound like god controls those outcomes, and when you don't get what you want, its still a good thing because god has a different plan for you, like being homless or getting aids or dying of an overdose or he plans on you being an atheist. or maybe he gave you free will and everyone else free will and let the world spin on its own

 

[Pako]

The Same thing I can say about you guys, you can say (or have said) about people like Swift and I. If you choose not to see the benefits and effects of prayer then you won't see it. I know people that have asked for financial benefits and have received money totaling the amount owed within pennies. You might say that it is pure chance that it happened, but when a complete stranger hands an envelope to you and says, "I don't know you, and I don't know why, but I was compelled to give this money to you" and they walk away....... No one knew of their financial position except God. God IS the only explanation to this. This is one of millions of personal life experiences and testimonies that have no other explanation except for some kind of divine intervention.

Knowing God and getting to know him takes an awareness of his presence in your life and the lives around you.

Revelation 3:20

 

[sicbeing]

The Same thing I can say about you guys, you can say (or have said) about people like Swift and I. If you choose not to see the benefits and effects of prayer then you won't see it. I know people that have asked for financial benefits and have received money totaling the amount owed within pennies. You might say that it is pure chance that it happened, but when a complete stranger hands an envelope to you and says, "I don't know you, and I don't know why, but I was compelled to give this money to you" and they walk away....... No one knew of their financial position except God. God IS the only explanation to this. This is one of millions of personal life experiences and testimonies that have no other explanation except for some kind of divine intervention.

Knowing God and getting to know him takes an awareness of his presence in your life and the lives around you.

Revelation 3:20

god is the only explanation for someone comming up to you and handing you money? you're joking right? what if I had a lot of money to give and decided to hand a homeless person some extra money? Because god told me to? you make it sound like this person handing you money is some dummy god drone sent here who has no past history just to hand you money, thats a little slim-minded

-edit-

and by the way, you cant convince someone who doesnt believe in prayer to believe in it, because they obveiously see things a lot differnt than you. God isnt the explanation for everything, I for one do not believe that everything that revolves around me is directed toward me. I am not that selve revolved, other people have other lives where they do things that dont always affect me, but when they do affect me i dont say its because I prayed.

 

[Pako]

god is the only explanation for someone comming up to you and handing you money? you're joking right? what if I had a lot of money to give and decided to hand a homeless person some extra money? Because god told me to? you make it sound like this person handing you money is some dummy god drone sent here who has no past history just to hand you money, thats a little slim-minded

*snip*

Did you even read what I posted? Honestly..... Continue to ignore what's around you. Your choice.

 

[sicbeing]

Did you even read what I posted? Honestly..... Continue to ignore what's around you. Your choice.

oh no i read it but i dont believe what you said about people getting money to the exact penny of what they needed, and whos to say what they "needed" in the first place?

 

[Swift]

oh no i read it but i dont believe what you said about people getting money to the exact penny of what they needed, and whos to say what they "needed" in the first place?

Let me ask you something. How do you explain diseases being cured that medical science CANNOT cure?

 

[sicbeing]

id have to say i dont know what youre talking about, ive never heard of that before swift. but you also have to remembr with whatever youre talking about that each person has different immune systems, thats the only agrument i can think of

 

[Swift]

id have to say i dont know what youre talking about, ive never heard of that before swift. but you also have to remembr with whatever youre talking about that each person has different immune systems, thats the only agrument i can think of

I knew you would say that. So people cured of diabetes, aids and cancer just have certain immune systems? Then why can't doctors just tap into that and get vaccines?

 

[Pako]

oh no i read it but i dont believe what you said about people getting money to the exact penny of what they needed, and whos to say what they "needed" in the first place?

Like I said....you didn't even read it. Even after re-reading it, this is the response you come up with?

*snip*.....totaling the amount owed within pennies.

What they "needed" was just enough to get by and that's what they got. The family was able to meet their financial obligations.

If you don't want to read my posts in their entirety, don't bother responding to them. Although what you said was true, it was totally unrelated to my post.

 

[sicbeing]

I knew you would say that. So people cured of diabetes, aids and cancer just have certain immune systems? Then why can't doctors just tap into that and get vaccines?

like i said before id never even heard of people just having diseases and then poof they're gone.

oh and pako you're prolly right, im kinda getting burned out on you guys.

 

[Famine]

I knew you would say that. So people cured of diabetes, aids and cancer just have certain immune systems?

Yes. Except for diabetes, obviously.

Then why can't doctors just tap into that and get vaccines?

Because that isn't how the immune system works. It's also not how diabetes, AIDS and cancer work.

As it happens, you - and everyone on Earth - is developing cancer all the time. 99 times out of 100, the immune system clears it up.

 

[Swift]

Yes. Except for diabetes, obviously.



Because that isn't how the immune system works. It's also not how diabetes, AIDS and cancer work.

As it happens, you - and everyone on Earth - is developing cancer all the time. 99 times out of 100, the immune system clears it up.

So for diabeties and other genetic chronic diseases are just lucky?

 

[Famine]

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the type of diabetes. Type I isn't genetic, for a start. MIDD won't clear up EVER.

 

[Swift]

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the type of diabetes. Type I isn't genetic, for a start. MIDD won't clear up EVER.

My healing was paid for by the stripes taken by Jesus Christ.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I have seen people healed of all these kind of things, tumors disappear, sight cleared up, leasions removed, lame limbs made whole and more. But that was just lucky right?

Well, I guess you can call it that. However, I know that there are forces at work that go far above our level of comprehension.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

If you choose not to see the benefits and effects of prayer then you won't see it.

If you can choose, then it is not really truth now is it
The truth kind of jumps out at you whether you choose to believe it or not. Like a speeding car at a crossing...choose not to believe in the car and simply walk across....you'll be fine, because you didn't believe in the car (obvious disclaimer..don't try this! )

I know people that have asked for financial benefits and have received money totaling the amount owed within pennies. You might say that it is pure chance that it happened, but when a complete stranger hands an envelope to you and says, "I don't know you, and I don't know why, but I was compelled to give this money to you" and they walk away....... No one knew of their financial position except God. God IS the only explanation to this. This is one of millions of personal life experiences and testimonies that have no other explanation except for some kind of divine intervention.

Knowing God and getting to know him takes an awareness of his presence in your life and the lives around you.

Revelation 3:20

That does sound like religion....it's all about giving money to the not so needy. "Send me your money, book a place in heaven"

Still it's odd how God answers a prayer about personal gain like that, and will let an old lady, who goes to church everyday and gives her pension away to charity, die alone in her house, only to be discovered 8 days later when her fly blown body starts to smell out the neighbours.
Or how about that rapist who got out on parole, and won the national lottery jackpot
...God sure does move in mysterious ways.

Pako, before you accuse sicbeing of not reading your post and living in ignorant bliss....did you even read mine?

Your link to the "scientific" paper was laughable, it proves nothing...you'll be telling me that telepathy is real next On the same website there were alien abduction papers!!

All you guys keep coming up with is that we don't understand...well from my point of view, yours is the oversimplification of the universe.
Where you can't comprehend, you go with the notion that "God did it".

 

[JacktheHat]

I have seen people healed of all these kind of things, tumors disappear, sight cleared up, leasions removed, lame limbs made whole and more. But that was just lucky right?

What proof can you provide? Did you see medical reports made before and after?
It may have been lucky or it could, just maybe, have been a con...

 

[Famine]

My healing was paid for by the stripes taken by Jesus Christ.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I have seen people healed of all these kind of things, tumors disappear, sight cleared up, leasions removed, lame limbs made whole and more. But that was just lucky right?

Well, I guess you can call it that. However, I know that there are forces at work that go far above our level of comprehension.

Why is this a response to what I wrote?

You asked about diabetes and "other genetic chronic diseases". I pointed out that there are many kinds of diabetes. Type I diabetes isn't genetic and has been known to go into remission, but MIDD (Maternally Inherited Diabetes and Deafness) won't clear up ever.

The human body has an astonishing capacity to heal itself from environmental disorders. I've yet to see Down's Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis or Duchene Muscular Dystrophy just spontaneously go away though.