Religion is contrived

[PS]

What would happen, if you found out there was no god? Just a question, I just want to know. What something crazy happened, like say Satan kills god—don't get into debate over it, just for a scenario or premise/platform for me to work with, what would you do when you found out there is no god?

Or...

What if god comes down, or Jesus, and says that nothing in the bible ever happened, and that God wasn't all powerful, but just a really good guy from a longass time ago? I don't mean to be mean (no pun intended) or anything, I just want to know what you guys would do if God descended from the heavens over top of New York city or LA where millions could see him, and he says "I'm a fraud. I'm sorry. Nothing ever happened, I never created anything, I have no powers, but thank you for worshipping me an hour a week."?

As you can see I couldn't have put it in the way of "what if some guy told you, and knew there was no god?" , because how would he know? He would have to be all knowing and thus omnipotent, omniscient, and omnithis-that-and-every-thing-in-between, which would technically make him god, basically. So I had to create some sort of Satan scenario, or God resignation/confession kind of thing.

Once again, this isn't argumentative, just one of those "What if?" kind of....things.

 

[Pako]

What would happen, if you found out there was no god? Just a question, I just want to know. What something crazy happened, like say Satan kills god—don't get into debate over it, just for a scenario or premise/platform for me to work with, what would you do when you found out there is no god?

Or...

What if god comes down, or Jesus, and says that nothing in the bible ever happened, and that God wasn't all powerful, but just a really good guy from a longass time ago? I don't mean to be mean (no pun intended) or anything, I just want to know what you guys would do if God descended from the heavens over top of New York city or LA where millions could see him, and he says "I'm a fraud. I'm sorry. Nothing ever happened, I never created anything, I have no powers, but thank you for worshipping me an hour a week."?

As you can see I couldn't have put it in the way of "what if some guy told you, and knew there was no god?" , because how would he know? He would have to be all knowing and thus omnipotent, omniscient, and omnithis-that-and-every-thing-in-between, which would technically make him god, basically. So I had to create some sort of Satan scenario, or God resignation/confession kind of thing.

Once again, this isn't argumentative, just one of those "What if?" kind of....things.

DUDE!!! LOL Lay off the crack man and get some sleep. You are making no sence what so ever. If He came down from heaven to say that He was a fraud, no one would believe Him because He would have been dead for over 2,000 years oh and lets not forget He would also be floating in mid air over New York or LA. Ummm...so yeah, lets not let you "what if" anymore ok?

How about this "what if"?

1.) You die and nothing happens.

or

2.) You die and find out that God does exist.

You're better off hedging your bet for the eternal #2.

 

[JacktheHat]

And (this should be good) how exactly have all the people that are currently being exploited failed God? Africa is mostly Christian, as is Central and Southern America, and people there go to church regularily.

Any chance of an answer?

 

[Famine]

OK, sure. My question is, "You agree there are more advanced beings out there. Why is it that you don't believe in a being so advanced it could create it's own universe? In effect, make this universe, and be the God of it?" That's my question.

Again with the belief... Now with the science:

In order to be IN a universe, one has to be subject to that universe's physical laws. In order not to be subject to a universe's physical laws one cannot be in it. If one is NOT in a universe, one cannot exert influence inside that universe.

So, if you were to "create" a universe, you must enter it and be subject to its laws in order to exert influence. If you are subject to the laws of that universe, you CANNOT be omnipotent since you are directly subject to other influences. If you do not enter it, you CANNOT be omnipotent, because you can't exert any influence on it.

IF it were possible to create a universe - and it probably is - you are either inside it or not and in either case you cannot possibly be what the Christians, Jews and Moslems define as God/Allah.


Pako - your "ID must be true because everything is connected" is a false syllogism. If everything arose from the same source it too would be connected. As indeed it did and is. It's right up there with "The presence of a painting implies a painter."

Furthermore, your assertion that it's better to believe in God in case he exists just leaves me sitting here with my jaw on the ground.


Swift: I DO like this concept...

For the love of money is the root of all evil

The root of ALL evil. Let's set that up against the Ten Commandments, shall we?

20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

So, to recap - Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Not related to the love of money. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (etc). Not related to the love of money. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they God in vain. Not related to the love of money. Remember the Sabbath (etc.). Not related to the love of money. Honour thy father and thy mother. Not related to the love of money. Thou shalt not kill. Not related to the love of money (except in SOME circumstances). Thou shalt not commit adultery. Not related to the love of money. Thou shalt not steal - we have a winner! Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Not related to the love of money. Thou shalt not covet (etc.). Conceivably related to the love of money.

So, the love of money is the ROOT of ALL EVIL, yet only 2 of the Ten Commandments are directed against it. Then again, I suppose "the love of money is the root of 0.2 of all evil" isn't quite as catchy.


However, this does make me wonder some more. Does "the love of money is the root of all evil" combined with the Ten Commandments cover the entire panoply of all possible sin?

If so, I guess torturers, rapists (as long as both they and their victims aren't married) and paedophiles must be in it just for the cash, since they aren't covered by Moses' ouvre? Mind you, I'm not seeing the whole "gays are the Devil" line in there either.


One line that DID catch my eye was "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God". Made me laugh out loud anyway.

 

[Pako]

Again with the belief... Now with the science:

In order to be IN a universe, one has to be subject to that universe's physical laws. In order not to be subject to a universe's physical laws one cannot be in it. If one is NOT in a universe, one cannot exert influence inside that universe.

So, if you were to "create" a universe, you must enter it and be subject to its laws in order to exert influence. If you are subject to the laws of that universe, you CANNOT be omnipotent since you are directly subject to other influences. If you do not enter it, you CANNOT be omnipotent, because you can't exert any influence on it.

IF it were possible to create a universe - and it probably is - you are either inside it or not and in either case you cannot possibly be what the Christians, Jews and Moslems define as God/Allah.


Pako - your "ID must be true because everything is connected" is a false syllogism. If everything arose from the same source it too would be connected. As indeed it did and is. It's right up there with "The presence of a painting implies a painter."

Furthermore, your assertion that it's better to believe in God in case he exists just leaves me sitting here with my jaw on the ground.

LOL, I think I heard your jaw hit all the way over here in the states..... PS starting entertaining "What If's" so I had to throw a couple in. I shouldn't have to qualify my "what if's" but it sounds like I must. My life before God was selfish and unmanageable, and frankly depressing. After God in my life, things are good, really. So even if you can prove that God doesn't exist, my quality of life has greatly improved by my change in life style and thought process. Ok, so now I've lived a better life than I would have other wise, but now I die. It's either THE END, or it's just the beginning. It's a win win situation whether God exists or not. What was that? Oh…it’s just your jaw again.

Again, you don't believe in the existence of God, so evolution is more appealing to you as it's the only theory out there right now that seems to make sense to you.

As far as being subject to the laws of the universe. Maybe, maybe not. You're also assuming that we have the knowledge of what the laws of the universe are. We're on a little rock in the middle of a universe and you claim to know it's laws and what can and can't be? This is where a little humility would be good. The law doesn't create the outcome, the outcome creates the law. Maybe, just maybe....there's more to the universe than what you know to be true. If someone can create a universe, I'm sure He can make his own rules.

 

[skicrush]

So, who says you must enter the universe you create? You can set up a playpen for your baby without getting in yourself. And does that mean you can't influence what happens inside that pen? No. And have we EVER detected other dimensions? No, but that doesn't stop us from supposing that gravity comes from one (ANOTHER, different one). I'd say gravity is a pretty strong influence, weak force though it may be. Don't agree with Tacet? OK, I still don't understand why the playpen analogy doesn't work for you. Who says he is in this universe and therefore subject to the silly weak "laws" we've come up with? And I'll go ahead and cite the walking on water example as one piece of evidence that He's not.

P.S. Sorry for the confusion PS!! NO offense I hope!!

 

[Famine]

Science isn't belief, Pako. We don't deal with

more appealing

Maybe, maybe not.

assuming

claim

humility

Maybe, just maybe

If

I'm sure

And yes, the law creates the outcome, not the other way round. It's a causality loop.

So, who says you must enter the universe you create? You can set up a playpen for your baby without getting in yourself. And does that mean you can't influence what happens inside that pen? No. And have we EVER detected other dimensions? No, but that doesn't stop us from supposing that gravity comes from one (ANOTHER, different one). I'd say gravity is a pretty strong influence, weak force though it may be. Don't agree with Tacet? OK, I still don't understand why the playpen analogy doesn't work for you. Who says he is in this universe and therefore subject to the silly weak "laws" we've come up with? And I'll go ahead and cite the walking on water example as one piece of evidence that He's not.

I'll apologise beforehand, since this is going to sound extremely harsh and condescending, but you just don't know enough about the concepts you're attempting to discuss to discuss them.

Playpen, baby and you are ALL in the same universe and subject to the same laws. The strong and weak nuclear forces don't cease to exist within the playpen. The 11th dimension doesn't suddenly change because of a physical barrier you've created using THIS universe's matter. "Who says"? The laws governing THIS universe say. And they aren't "silly weak laws we've come up with" - man cannot alter the laws governing the universe by saying so. They are basic, fundamental laws which the universe runs on which we have only discovered. We didn't INVENT the laws any more than we invented electricity. Your God doesn't run by the rules of the Universe? Then he's not in it.

We can detect other dimensions all the time. Look across the room. There, you're DIRECTLY sensing FOUR of them. You don't know it, but you can detect at least two others as well.

Walking on water? I can do that, by utilising our universe's laws to my benefit. I can walk on custard and gravy too - and that's even easier. But once again we come down to the fundamental problem here. Your corroborative source for saying this event even occurred is your ONLY source, which I say was written by some blokes 75-800 years AFTER the event described in them occurred, and you think was written by God THROUGH men.

 

[skicrush]

So, who says you must reside in the universe you create? Do you have the cookbook for the universe?

 

[Pako]

Science isn't belief, Pako. We don't deal with



And yes, the law creates the outcome, not the other way round. It's a causality loop.

Because of an outcome, we have discovered a law that's behind that outcome. We haven't defined a law and then discovered it's outcome. The Laws are what we define. But yes, I see what your saying. The law has always been there whether or not we have defined it yet is what your saying, and that I totally agree with and drives my point home a little closer.

 

[JacktheHat]

So, who says you must reside in the universe you create? Do you have the cookbook for the universe?

Omni-present does.

 

[Famine]

Anything that doesn't abide by the laws governing the universe does not exist within the universe. Anything which doesn't exist within the universe cannot influence the universe.

As I said before "Who says"? The laws governing our universe say.

 

[skicrush]

And who said God had to absolve himslef of obeying ANY of the nuclear forces? You're going way off track here. The farthest afeild God would have to run is to make ESP and telekinesis possible, and be smart enough to be able to handle what EVERYONE is thinking. And if He knows some tricks for handling gravity a little better than you can manipulate it, why is that a bad thing? I can't hit a 100 mph fastball, but I don't begrudge those who can their ability.

 

[JacktheHat]

And who said God had to absolve himslef of obeying ANY of the nuclear forces? You're going way off track here. The farthest afeild God would have to run is to make ESP and telekinesis possible, and be smart enough to be able to handle what EVERYONE is thinking. And if He knows some tricks for handling gravity a little better than you can manipulate it, why is that a bad thing? I can't hit a 100 moh fastball, but I don't begrudge thosse who can their ability.

What? You are aware that God is supposedly omni-present? That means he's everywhere at the same time. Comprende?

 

[skicrush]

Again, you keep drawing from that council the Catholics held to determine the character of God. Find me the place in the Bible that says that God is everywhere and nowhere. Its not there. You can't base your doubt in God in the erroneous assumptions of ONE religion! He may be able to be wherever he needs to be at any time, but He can't be in 2 places at once.

 

[JacktheHat]

Again, you keep drawing from that council the Catholics held to determine the character of God. Find me the place in the Bible that says that God is everywhere and nowhere. Its not there. You can't base your doubt in God in the erroneous assumptions of ONE religion!

But you base your belief in God on just a few books and no physical evidence?

 

[JacktheHat]

From the Bible...

Jeremiah 23:24: "’Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?’ says the LORD; ‘Do I not fill heaven and earth?’ says the LORD."

In Isaiah 66:1, the LORD says: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool."

In Psalm 139:7-10, David writes: "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me."

Proverbs 15:3 says: "The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good."

 

[skicrush]

And you base your non belief in God on heresay and incorrect information. You tertiary information on religions you don't understand. Famine's read the bible 4 times he says. Ask him where it says God is everywhere and nowhere. He may be all powerful, and that means His power or influence can reach everywhere at once, in addition to Him being able to BE wherever He wants at a particular time, but that certainly isn't everywhere at once.

 

[Famine]

And who said God had to absolve himslef of obeying ANY of the nuclear forces? You're going way off track here. The farthest afeild God would have to run is to make ESP and telekinesis possible, and be smart enough to be able to handle what EVERYONE is thinking. And if He knows some tricks for handling gravity a little better than you can manipulate it, why is that a bad thing? I can't hit a 100 mph fastball, but I don't begrudge those who can their ability.

And you're talking about what now?

From what you say, I get that you think God is merely a more advanced lifeform than us, rather than the eternal Creator of all things? That would make you a Raelian.

Famine's read the bible 4 times he says

Wow. If you can pull that out of your ass with no written evidence, no wonder you guys have such fun with the Bible.

 

[JacktheHat]

And you base your non belief in God on heresay and incorrect information. You tertiary information on religions you don't understand. Famine's read the bible 4 times he says. Ask him where it says God is everywhere and nowhere. He may be all powerful, and that means His power or influence can reach everywhere at once, in addition to Him being able to BE wherever He wants at a particular time, but that certainly isn't everywhere at once.

You know what they say about the word 'assume'. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I haven't studied religion.

Oh, and check those quotes out... I think you'll find they say God is part of this universe.

 

[skicrush]

Geez, sorry Famine--didn't mean to offend. I thought you said you'd read it multiple times--I didn't feel like going back over the whole thread to make sure. I get the feeling you're getting irritable because I'm forcing you into a corner. And I must admit I'm ignorant. I don't know what a Raelian is, but I can google it while you reply. I am a member fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (what people call Mormons), and yeah, we believe that God is a perfect, all powerful Man. Pretty much how the new testament describes Jesus after he was resurrected. We believe that as man is, God once was, and that as God is, man may become. God is not some vacuous, ethereal form--He looks like a man, only perfect. With a knowledge and understanding of this universe we can't grasp--but that doesn mean he violates the laws of this universe--he just knows how to do things we don't yet understand. And surely you must admit that there are unexplained phenomena that we don't understand.

 

[JacktheHat]

Geez, sorry Famine--didn't mean to offend. I thought you said you'd read it multiple times--I didn't feel like going back over the whole thread to make sure. I get the feeling you're getting irritable because I'm forcing you into a corner. And I must admit I'm ignorant. I don't know what a Raelian is, but I can google it while you reply. I am a member fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (what people call Mormons), and yeah, we believe that God is a perfect, all powerful Man. Pretty much how the new testament describes Jesus after he was resurrected. We believe that as man is, God once was, and that as God is, man may become. God is not some vacuous, ethereal form--He looks like a man, only perfect. With a knowledge and understanding of this universe we can't grasp--but that doesn mean he violates the laws of this universe--he just knows how to do things we don't yet understand. And surely you must admit that there are unexplained phenomena that we don't understand.

What corner? Where?

 

[skicrush]

"There are more advanced life forms out there." (Not a direct quote, but the gist of it.)

But he can't seem to admit that one of those advanced life forms may have created us.

 

[JacktheHat]

"There are more advanced life forms out there." (Not a direct quote, but the gist of it.)

But he can't seem to admit that one of those advanced life forms may have created us.

Advanced life forms do not equal Gods.

And we weren't created, we evolved. The same as any advanced life forms that may exist.

 

[Touring Mars]

He looks like a man... with a knowledge and understanding of this universe we can't grasp

Sounds like someone we know??

 

[Danoff]

Advanced life forms do not equal Gods.

And we weren't created, we evolved. The same as any advanced life forms that may exist.

👍

We have evidence that we were not directly created - that we evolved. There is no point in ignoring that evidence. So regardless of how advanced these aliens may be, they didn't make us out of dirt, or bones, or whatever else it is we're supposed to be made of.

 

[skicrush]

LOL--that was pretty funny Touring! And Famine--that Raelian stuff is CRAZY!! Sounds like an elaborate plot to get some loving! All that sensual talk! I guess I'm just a little baffled at your apparent contradictions--there is obviously a limit to HOW advanced you believe the other life out there to be. That's cool Famine--you just didn't mention that before.

 

[JParker]

Sorry to go off topic and several pages back, but. I brought up the whole evolution thing a couple of days ago and someone said something about humans and monkeys having a common ancestor. Could someone give me name of that ancestor. I would like to read something on that.

 

[JacktheHat]

Sorry to go off topic and several pages back, but. I brought up the whole evolution thing a couple of days ago and someone said something about humans and monkeys having a common ancestor. Could someone give me name of that ancestor. I would like to read something on that.

Don't know the name of the top of my head but search hominid or hominoidea and you should find it...

 

[Touring Mars]

There's a bit about it here too...

I did a search for 'Human phylogenetic tree'....

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/primate.html

 

[Famine]

I'm just a little baffled at your apparent contradictions--there is obviously a limit to HOW advanced you believe the other life out there to be. That's cool Famine--you just didn't mention that before.

There is only one limit. The universe. There are no contradictions - merely a limit of your understanding of the concepts I'm discussing. I mean, that's fine and all - no-one says you must be an expert in any particular field (I switch off when it comes to finance, for instance), but you're using concepts you don't understand to argue your position. That's NOT a strong foundation.

And, to use your words:

God is a perfect, all powerful Man

If he's IN the universe, he's subject to its laws and cannot be all powerful. If he's NOT in the universe, he has no power to effect changes upon it. I'm sure I've said that before.

And how perfect can someone be if they're "jealous" and will punish the grand-children and great-grand-children (who are innocent of the "sin") of those that don't accept them?


And AGAIN with the "you believe" dogma. STOP. IT.