Restoring My Beliefs

[Carl.]

I said that with a tongue-in-cheek, Swift.

It's quite funny when you read both sentence one after the other.

 

[Swift]

1. Well, do you believe in God because he seems very powerfull?

2. Does BX need a powerfull God?

As for Famine's comment, lol you really love to investigate these things down to the bottom dont you.

1. Yes

2. That wasn't my point. My point is that if your god is yourself then you really have nothing beyond what you can do/think/feel.

 

[Niels]

1. Yes

2. That wasn't my point. My point is that if your god is yourself then you really have nothing beyond what you can do/think/feel.

1. Do you realise there might as well exist a God that isn't as powerfull at al as the bible states? If it turns out to be like that, would you still worship God in church with that knowledge?

2. There isn't much else is there, even if you believe in a God in your way, right?

Edit: It isn't much of a discussion, I just ask this out of interest so there might be a question you never though about. We had a group of religious people from all over the world in our school to tell us about god and to reply our questions, 2 months ago.

 

[Swift]

1. Do you realise there might as well exist a God that isn't as powerfull at al as the bible states? If it turns out to be like that, would you still worship God in church with that knowledge?

2. There isn't much else is there, even if you believe in a God in your way, right?

That kind of argument bores me to tears. "There might be some other something...." Well, come to me with SOMETHING and we'll talk. Until then, Jesus is my God.

There isn't much else to the person without faith. Just life and death. To a believer, death is the beginning.

 

[Famine]

GREAT POST... You get the Red Check of Death 👍

Thank you (twice).

But... What if they only had one version of an animal? Say an elephant from which all elephants would then come from? Same for horses, dogs, ect.

Then hardcore Biblists should fervently belief in Evolution, only at a vastly accelerated rate - you're looking at 10 million years' worth of speciation in less than one five thousandth of that time. Hell, dogs could turn into penguins overnight at that rate.

And also, a lion wouldn't eat and entire horse by itself...

After being starved for three days, you BET it would. Not to mention its girlfriend, or the tigers, panthers, leopards, cheetahs, jaguars, cougars and so on.

I'm pretty sure birds weren't on the arc, as it was a gull or dove that led them to land and it wasn't one of Noahs...

Genesis (7:14 and 8:6-12) say that every kind of bird was on there, and that the raven and dove came FROM the Ark.

Bugs could have lived on the animals...

That doesn't mean that they take up no space though.

What's more important is what did Noah do with all the dung those animals produced... Yes, some of the animals would be necrafarious (spelling), but not all.

Necrophagous? That's eating the dead. You're thinking of coprophagous...

But yes, it's a valid point. Not only do the animals need space to be and space to live in, they also need food, water and, errr, mucking out. Imagine the feeding/decrapping schedule for a pair each (on average) of a million species...

And I'm faily sure Noah got hungry and ate the unicorns and dragons, hence why we don't see them around anymore... Or maybe he fed THEM to the lions? I'm sure a dargon could feed a pride for quite a while...

You tried killing a dragon lately? Even if all 10,000 passerines ganged up on it, it wouldn't so much as draw blood.

Still, it's a good job Old Testamenteers don't believe in dinosaurs too...

To a believer, death is the beginning.

Death is only the beginning...

*is scared*

 

[Niels]

That kind of argument bores me to tears. "There might be some other something...." Well, come to me with SOMETHING and we'll talk. Until then, Jesus is my God.

Oh well you don't need to anwser it, I was just interested.

Point 2 I understand now though

 

[Swift]

To a believer, death is the beginning.

Death is only the beginning...

*is scared*

ROFL!!

 

[Keef]

Famine, you made no mention of all the single-celled orgainism on the planet. I don't know if the story makes any mention of them, but they are alive. There are probably millions and millions of species of single-celled baterias and such, and I'm sure new ones pop up every minute. That is 100% assumption, but since we can actually witness some of them change in real-time, just imagine the posibilities...

 

[Swift]

Famine, you made no mention of all the single-celled orgainism on the planet. I don't know if the story makes any mention of them, but they are alive. There are probably millions and millions of species of single-celled baterias and such, and I'm sure new ones pop up every minute. That is 100% assumption, but since we can actually witness some of them change in real-time, just imagine the posibilities...

Man, some of you are incredible. You will argue down to the last ameoba that the world flood and Ark are impossible. Someone says, "Where's the missing link or links to humans and primates?" And you say, "We have evidence that supports...". I know, I know...there is NO missing link. But there should be a direct, varifiable, unquestionable path from us to the more hairy guys

I'm not trying to insult you, just that when people pick apart things of the bible, the same can be done to some scientific theories.

We say, "God did it that way" you say, "We don't know". Now, I'm perfectly fine with you saying that as long as you leave in the possibility of a higher power moving to make it so.

 

[Pako]

Famine,

Through God, all things are possible. Yes, even things that go against science. I have a willingness to seek the truth and it has led me to the bible and God's teachings and through faith I can except the things I don't understand. Jesus fed 5,000 people with a couple fish and loaf of bread. Perhaps a similar miracle was performed on the ark. Hard to say, I wasn't there. You are absolutely right though, by mans design, the gathering of the animals, keeping them alive, the building of the boat....all impossible, but remember, through God ALL things are possible.

 

[Joey D]

Then you have a very weak god BX.

All this stuff about the flood and the Ark has been done to death. You don't want to believe in the flood, fine. You want to believe that your a monkey's nephew, knock yourself out.

What I want to know is why to people constantly reject the thought of a higher power? Actually, I know why, I just want to know why others think it is.

How is that? I don't believe in a being that is God. God is what you make of Him and I don't make anything of him. I study religion sure...mostly old religions like Nordic and Celetic gods because I find that fasinating. I just can't accept the fact their is a being outside of the universe (or in the universe) that controls my life.

 

[Swift]

How is that? I don't believe in a being that is God. God is what you make of Him and I don't make anything of him. I study religion sure...mostly old religions like Nordic and Celetic gods because I find that fasinating. I just can't accept the fact their is a being outside of the universe (or in the universe) that controls my life.

That's fine BX, but think about this. If you are your own god, then what good is it even having a god? You don't know what's in the next 5 minutes, to say nothing of tommorow. You have no power outside of yourself(and very limited inside). To me, a god is someone that can do things above your comprehension. Now, if you don't want to think that things like this are possible, that's fine. But calling yourself your god is pretty much saying that you are the end all be all of what you consider your world to be.

Also, wouldn't the very definiton of "god" be someone that could manipulate many things at once and not be bound by the physical laws of our universe?

 

[Joey D]

The only good thing I see about having a god is to give some people hope for the future...which is a big theory in how religion started back in the Neaderthal days, they need hope for something.

Humans don't have any power outside of themselves anyways. Think about it, if I want a cold drink right now I can't just ask God and have it, no I need to get up and get it.

But me, myself, and I, aren't god...my mind is my own personal god that tells me that I have this to look forward to, the difference between right and wrong, and other things.

Like I've said there is no clear cut right and wrong when it comes to what God is because to Christians is Elohim, to Muslims its Allah, to Nordics it was Odin, and to the Greeks it was Zeus.

 

[Famine]

Famine,

Through God, all things are possible. Yes, even things that go against science. I have a willingness to seek the truth and it has led me to the bible and God's teachings and through faith I can except the things I don't understand. Jesus fed 5,000 people with a couple fish and loaf of bread. Perhaps a similar miracle was performed on the ark. Hard to say, I wasn't there. You are absolutely right though, by mans design, the gathering of the animals, keeping them alive, the building of the boat....all impossible, but remember, through God ALL things are possible.

But how do you know about the Ark story - and indeed anything of God's teachings? The Bible. A single source. In order to accept anything of God's teachings you MUST accept that the Bible is the word of God - but yet it contains many factual errors and inaccuracies - and, at best, allegories which are not meant in any literal sense. And it flowed from the hand of men - men who are fallible.

So you have a single, unverifiable source of wholly undivine origin to rely on for your faith. Do you see how circular this is? You believe in God as the Bible describes, and you believe in the Bible because it describes itself as being the Word of God. Neither has any external confirmation.


As a follow-up to this, how would you react to a man writing a book today and claiming it should be included in the Bible as he is receiving the Word of God?


I understand faith - though I don't accept it. It's important to people to have something... else... to rely on. I cannot understand buying into somebody else's beliefs though.

 

[Swift]

The only good thing I see about having a god is to give some people hope for the future...which is a big theory in how religion started back in the Neaderthal days, they need hope for something.

Humans don't have any power outside of themselves anyways. Think about it, if I want a cold drink right now I can't just ask God and have it, no I need to get up and get it.

But me, myself, and I, aren't god...my mind is my own personal god that tells me that I have this to look forward to, the difference between right and wrong, and other things.

Like I've said there is no clear cut right and wrong when it comes to what God is because to Christians is Elohim, to Muslims its Allah, to Nordics it was Odin, and to the Greeks it was Zeus.

What kind of example is that cold drink? God does for us what we CAN'T do for ourselves. I can see where you're trying to steer the conversation though...

Once again, we go to the "There is no truth" discussion. If there is no absolute truth then how can we have crime?

 

[Joey D]

Ok something we can't do for ourselves: I can't do quite a few things like fly, walk on water, lift big heavy things, etc. So if I pray to god I can do it? Seriously and this is no joke and I'm not being sarcastic...I don't understand

 

[James2097]

Then you have a very weak god BX.

Maybe for Blazin', the only important part of religious ideas are the morals (basically the only helpful part IMO), in which you can perfectly maintain without a real higher-power other than your own conscience. Hence his comment about it being more part of your inner conscience? Of course Blazin' would have to explain what he means better, its not up to me to really know what he's getting at!

Why does God have to be powerful? Why do we need a God at all? Aren't all men equal? Isn't having a really powerful God (or a God at all) inferring that the idea of God having ultimate power over someone else kinda like a dictatorship? isn't this a bad idea because it encourages humans to set up similar systems within their societies? Monarchies and dictatorships are bad, generally! The whole idea of one single God, an ultimate ruler over everyone is anti-democratic, anti everyone being equal.

No wonder the ancient greeks happened to believe in multiple gods (NOT a single ruler over everyone) when they invented the most pure form of democracy the world has ever seen (even to this day). Hit the middle ages way later on with a singular concept of God, and we're backwards with oppressive monarchies, and loads of peasants with bugger all choice or power in their lives.

Just an idea I thought of then.

All this stuff about the flood and the Ark has been done to death. You don't want to believe in the flood, fine.

We can't believe in the flood because it did not happen. It is impossible in every real sense for it to have happened. We've seen this explained AT LENGTH in the creation vs evolution thread. To believe in the flood story in a LITERAL sense is plain idiotic. Even the Pope says you shouldn't take those stories literally.

You want to believe that your a monkey's nephew, knock yourself out.

Evolutionists DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING! How many times must this be said? You seriously still think science is a belief system? What the?! I thought you actually read some of that creation vs evolution thread...

And we're not related to "monkeys"!

I know it's a simple typo probably, but it still explains how you think about science and what it is.

What I want to know is why to people constantly reject the thought of a higher power? Actually, I know why, I just want to know why others think it is.

Because there is no verifiable proof in any way, and never has been, in the history of the world. Plus, there IS a LOT of proof regarding the process of evolution. I know, an obvious answer, but really, it's pretty basic IMO. There is no way religion can be right. Certainly not organised religion, invented by men that didn't know anything more than you or me regarding this ol' Earth and our place in it. It's impossible to prove the absolute lack (or existence) of a higher being/s, but there is no good reason to follow any one of the many versions of organised religion mankind has invented. How can you even start to say one of these religions MUST be correct and another wrong? They all have old books written about them and many loyal followers!

IMO, if you are going to be religious, or have spiritual feelings, I believe like Blazin', that it must come from your own self, the purest and truest source for understanding the feelings you have about the world around you. As it is impossible to prove any one God exists, or even identify him/her/it, surely its ok to simply feel a general sense of spirituality and wonder that there is more to life than the things we see with our 5 senses. It IS a really nice idea, but I've no clue how organised religion gives you ANYTHING (in a real truth-seeking sense - I'm ignoring the social/moral aspects etc) more than this personal sense of spiritual wonder. Organised religion actually dilutes this pure feeling with all this made up stuff that whoever wrote it felt they needed to round out the ideas so people would buy it. Why believe in something invented by random men in the past who didn't really know anything more (actually a lot less) about your sense of spirituality than yourself?

The whole concept of paying money to anyone or needing to build huge expensive churches etc to be religious - ultimately a pursuit of the mind - and nothing more - is patently ABSURD and quite horrible once you think about it. The ONLY explanation is that organised religion is nothing more than a business, at it's heart. The best marketed and most valuable product ever created by mankind - a ticket to heaven.

I actually find it really sad in a way, for those that get caught in the scheme.

I know, perhaps a little too truthful for some, and they may get upset, but hey I can only say what I really think. Its a sin to lie, isn't it?

 

[Joey D]

Maybe for Blazin', the only important part of religious ideas are the morals (basically the only helpful part IMO), in which you can perfectly maintain without a real higher-power other than your own conscience. Hence his comment about it being more part of your inner conscience? Of course Blazin' would have to explain what he means better, its not up to me to really know what he's getting at!

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[Niels]

Also, wouldn't the very definiton of "god" be someone that could manipulate many things at once and not be bound by the physical laws of our universe?

Plus he should be the one that made our world and universe.
And well, I guess he isn't bound to physical laws because he created the physical laws too didn't he

One thing that bothers me though, is that you'll end up in hell if you don't believe in God?
Honestly what does it matter if I don't believe in him yet. Heck, other than the name "God" I wouldn't really be able to explain what he is...so why is it so bad if you don't believe in Him?

 

[Keef]

Niels said that a god should be the one who not only controls everything, but the one who created everything, including the laws by which those things operate. But who created God? It's a simple question that a 5 year old might ask his preacher. But nobody has an answer. Or do they...?

 

[Swift]

No wonder the ancient greeks happened to believe in multiple gods (NOT a single ruler over everyone) when they invented the most pure form of democracy the world has ever seen (even to this day). Hit the middle ages way later on with a singular concept of God, and we're backwards with oppressive monarchies, and loads of peasants with bugger all choice or power in their lives.

Just an idea I thought of then.

You do know that pure democracy doesn't work right?

Evolutionists DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING! How many times must this be said? You seriously still think science is a belief system? What the?! I thought you actually read some of that creation vs evolution thread...

If evolutionists think that the world and animals just appaeared "because" then they ceratainly do believe something.

And we're not related to "monkeys"!

I know it's a simple typo probably, but it still explains how you think about science and what it is.

My fault, the "closest" ape to a human is an arangatang. My bad...

IMO, if you are going to be religious, or have spiritual feelings, I believe like Blazin', that it must come from your own self, the purest and truest source for understanding the feelings you have about the world around you. As it is impossible to prove any one God exists, or even identify him/her/it, surely its ok to simply feel a general sense of spirituality and wonder that there is more to life than the things we see with our 5 senses. It IS a really nice idea, but I've no clue how organised religion gives you ANYTHING (in a real truth-seeking sense - I'm ignoring the social/moral aspects etc) more than this personal sense of spiritual wonder. Organised religion actually dilutes this pure feeling with all this made up stuff that whoever wrote it felt they needed to round out the ideas so people would buy it. Why believe in something invented by random men in the past who didn't really know anything more (actually a lot less) about your sense of spirituality than yourself?

So you make it up as you go along, convienent.

The whole concept of paying money to anyone or needing to build huge expensive churches etc to be religious - ultimately a pursuit of the mind - and nothing more - is patently ABSURD and quite horrible once you think about it. The ONLY explanation is that organised religion is nothing more than a business, at it's heart. The best marketed and most valuable product ever created by mankind - a ticket to heaven.

That was radically insulting. Amazing how I was welcome in my church for over 1.5 years when I wasn't even working. Now...why would they do that if it's a "business" That doesn't make business sense to help people that can't give you money back for it.

I actually find it really sad in a way, for those that get caught in the scheme.
I know, perhaps a little too truthful for some, and they may get upset, but hey I can only say what I really think. Its a sin to lie, isn't it?

Not to you it isn't. You don't believe in sin. You have your own personal right/wrong.

 

[Dave A]

Well said Swift, regarding churches and such that do get heared about for being unfair or whatever, there's hundereds of thousands, probably millions of churches over the globe, you hear about the very few that do something wrong because thay've done something wrong, it get's a headline, unlike, "everything wen't as it should have". Ofcourse you will hear tales of bad apples in religion, you will in any situation where there's leadership involved, be it governmental or whatever. You can't say, yeah but this church did this, and so that religion is thus corrupt. You need to read up on that religion, find out how that religion views such an action, and it may be the case that that religion doesn't approve of such actions. So yes, you will find individual's within a religion that don't do things right, but it doesn't mean the religion is corrupt, at the end of the day, every single person on this planet is imperfect.

And regarding believeing in something, to not believe in anything would mean you have zero consciousness.

 

[code_kev]

Swift, the monkeys uncle comment did only one, made you look stupid. Very very very very very very stupid. Seriously. wow.

I'm getting out of this thread, the level of stupidity and ignorance displayed by the Creationists is just making my blood boil, and I feel it's best I leave before I say something horrible.

On a final note, I'm STILL waiting for physical evidence of the flood. At the end of the day, you know your wrong.

Love and kisses,

kev

 

[Amblin]

That was radically insulting. Amazing how I was welcome in my church for over 1.5 years when I wasn't even working. Now...why would they do that if it's a "business" That doesn't make business sense to help people that can't give you money back for it.

Because the product it sells is free...it's the infrastructure that needs the income.

I forget where i heard this but someone said something along the lines of "if your belief system needs someone to rely on, then you have a weak belief system", or something to that effect. i think it sort of applies to blazing

and famine are you a geologist?

 

[Pako]

But how do you know about the Ark story - and indeed anything of God's teachings? The Bible. A single source. In order to accept anything of God's teachings you MUST accept that the Bible is the word of God - but yet it contains many factual errors and inaccuracies - and, at best, allegories which are not meant in any literal sense. And it flowed from the hand of men - men who are fallible.

So you have a single, unverifiable source of wholly undivine origin to rely on for your faith. Do you see how circular this is? You believe in God as the Bible describes, and you believe in the Bible because it describes itself as being the Word of God. Neither has any external confirmation.


As a follow-up to this, how would you react to a man writing a book today and claiming it should be included in the Bible as he is receiving the Word of God?


I understand faith - though I don't accept it. It's important to people to have something... else... to rely on. I cannot understand buying into somebody else's beliefs though.

According to my faith, what would be the purpose of additional scriptures writing in the Bible by a 20th century prophet? Jesus IS the truth and the way to true salvation. He is the messiah. He is the answer. There's nothing left to write. How would I react? What more could be written....it wouldn't happen. However, didn't Joseph Smith write the book of Mormons after he hit his head on a rock and had a vision? This was his 'supplement' to the Bible. I guess that kind of counts and I dismiss the book of Mormons as a contradictory to Christianity as it would be described by Christ.

 

[Swift]

Swift, the monkeys uncle comment did only one, made you look stupid.

I'm getting out of this thread, the level of stupidity and ignorance displayed by the Creationists is just making my blood boil, and I feel it's best I leave before I say something horrible.

On a final note, I'm STILL waiting for physical evidence of the flood.

Love and kisses,

kev

The monkey's NEPHEW comment was sarcastic but rhetorical. If evolution of the origin of the species is true, then we are related at some degree to lower primates. I'm trying to figure out how that's not possible.

Code, I don't care about proving the flood. That's not what the thread is about. It's about your personal belief system or if you even have one.

I'm STILL waiting on evidence that the world just popped into existence, but I don't have any.

Because the product it sells is free...it's the infrastructure that needs the income.

I forget where i heard this but someone said something along the lines of "if your belief system needs someone to rely on, then you have a weak belief system", or something to that effect. i think it sort of applies to blazing

and famine are you a geologist?

That's a different way of looking at it. That pretty much makes the "self god" concept rather weak.

And I believe our friend Famine is a Microbiologist(or at least that's ONE of his degrees)

 

[code_kev]

Code, I don't care about proving the flood. That's not what the thread is about. It's about your personal belief system or if you even have one.

I'm STILL waiting on evidence that the world just popped into existance, but I don't have any.

All I can say is "owned".

When you say "I don't care", that actually means you can't find a single shred of evidence. Also proving a MASSIVE ecological event like that is a easy compared to how the world was created, even after 5000 years or what ever there should be ample evidence. You knows I'm right. You act as if the flood is 100% fact, I do not treat the whole big bang thing as 100% fact, here lies the difference. Also I'm no where near qualified enough to comment on how the Earth was really created, but I sure as hell know it's isn't the fairy tale you subscribe too.

Gah I knew I couldn't stay away

 

[Amblin]

I'm STILL waiting on evidence that the world just popped into existence, but I don't have any.

just have faith

lol

 

[Pako]

just have faith

Bro, word up G!

 

[Kylehnat]

My fault, the "closest" ape to a human is an arangatang. My bad...

Chimpanzee, but close enough. Interesting side note: "monkey" and "ape" are not interchangeable. That is to say, monkeys aren't apes....er...or...apes aren't monkeys. I don't remember which way it goes