Ron Paul has it right about the mosque debate

[A2K78]

Its quite a shame how the media have overblown the issue and have turn it into an issue of religion, but its nice know the voice of reason aka Ron Paul actually injecting something some sensibility into the matter:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul690.html

as for the WTC site, I happen to know people who died(and were survivors), but in no way do I see the site some holy site other than a place fit to be turned into a parking lot.

 

[astrosdude91]

I support the Mosque 100%! I was wondering when someone would make a thread about this.

 

[Omnis]

Ron Paul is right

We know.

 

[Joel]

Protecting rights > Not offending people.

You don't have a right to not be offended. It sets a horrible precedent to block a Mosque here, just a brutally arbitrary line. I understand that to some it's like adding insult to injury, but that doesn't justify brutally violating the rights to freedom or religion/assembly, and setting a horrible precedent in the process.


It's incredibly ironic that the same government that supposedly fights for freedom, is stripping its own citizens of it on home soil.

 

[Northstar]

I understand that to some it's like adding insult to injury,

If it were 9/12/2001 than that would be a valid argument, however it's 9/4/2010. If the "wounds" are still "open" than the terrorists have been extremely successful. It's hard to make an argument for the "wounds" to be open still when they are currently working on the new building.

I think it just comes down to the fact America, for some reason, needs to oppress some minority for some pointless reason and Muslims just happen to be an easy target right now.

 

[Omnis]

The bigger issue is not the mosque. It's the demonization of Islam by retards like Sean Hannity with impervious worldviews. When you listen to Imam Rauf with your own ears, without a demagogue filter applied, he is completely reasonable and what he says is just the way things really are. Make what you will of reality, but don't get pissed off just because someone tells it like it is.

Excuse the expression, but Muslims are being treated like the new n-words.

 

[a6m5]

I think that they have every right to build the mosque. I do frown upon their decision to build it, after meeting such strong opposition though. If I was in charge of the project, I'd never have attempted to cause the controversy in the first place. Maybe decades from now? Certainly not this soon. I just think that they are disregarding the sentiments of the city which was attacked in the name of their religion. Legally, nothing is stopping them. However, I'd consider people like that a bad neighbor.

I heard Dennis Miller on the radio the other day, while I was pleased to hear him say exactly the same thing, he brought up an interesting point. Muslims say that terrorists, extremists in their religion are the few bad apples, and they don't necessarily represent their religion, or religious beliefs. But are the leaders doing enough to condemn these extremists?

I'm not going to pretend to know that I'm aware of how much Muslims actually do to fight the extremists and terrorists. But I thought it was an interesting point of view anyway.

 

[Northstar]

But are the leaders doing enough to condemn these extremists?

Every religion has it's extremists, so you should probably be asking that about every religion.

I also don't get how it's "too soon", it's been 9 years.

Edit: I have done some research. and there are some Japanese restaurants near Pearl Harbor, where is the outrage over that?

 

[Joel]

Sure, the decision lacks tact, but on what grounds can anyone block it? There's absolutely nothing other than blind misguided racism being directed towards Islam. It's sickening to me that there is such strong opposition. How about we ban Catholic Churches in Europe because it's where the Crusades were?


It's the ultimate hypocrisy that the same idiots who preach "Land of the free" feel like adding "unless you're Islamic" in there.

 

[a6m5]

Every religion has it's extremists, so you should probably be asking that about every religion.

Which one's? And how much casualties are they causing?

I also don't get how it's "too soon", it's been 9 years.

I can respect your opinion. Yes, it's been nearly 10 years.

Like I said, they have every right to build it. And you don't have to be Ron Paul to see how hypocritical it would be of the government to try to stop the mosque from being built. But way I see it, if the people in the neighborhood start crying about it, it is too soon. It wouldn't offend me, but I watched 9/11 on TV.

Edit: I have done some research. and there are some Japanese restaurants near Pearl Harbor, where is the outrage over that?

I'm sorry, but I find this funny. Yeah, it seems like it's the same deal, but it is completely different.

Where is the opposition? I think you are missing my point.

 

[Reims_]

As a non American, the idea of building a mosque near the WTC disgusts me. It's not right imo.

 

[Northstar]

Which one's? And how much casualties are they causing?

Well, off the top of my head, KKK, Anti-Abortion, Hutaree, Nazi Germany although there are plenty more examples.

I don't think body count is really a good measure though.

I can respect your opinion. Yes, it's been nearly 10 years.

Like I said, they have every right to build it. And you don't have to be Ron Paul to see how hypocritical it would be of the government to try to stop the mosque from being built. But way I see it, if the people in the neighborhood start crying about it, it is too soon. It wouldn't offend me, but I watched 9/11 on TV.

They have every right to be offended, pissed, mad, angry, sad, upset or any other emotion, which is what makes this country what it is. Doesn't mean anything or anyone has to change based on that fact alone.

I'm sorry, but I find this funny. Yeah, it seems like it's the same deal, but it is completely different.

Where is the opposition? I think you are missing my point.

It's called satire.

 

[Omnis]

Muslims say that terrorists, extremists in their religion are the few bad apples, and they don't necessarily represent their religion, or religious beliefs. But are the leaders doing enough to condemn these extremists?

Do you need to know what the Pope thinks about the sexual predator priests to understand how Catholics around the world feel about it?

Muslim leaders always condemn terrorists. However, they also are not afraid to condemn the USA for killing more innocent people over there than any islamic terrorists have killed anywhere. Demagogues do not like that last part. It inconveniences their bombastic jingoist worldviews.

 

[a6m5]

Well, off the top of my head, KKK, Anti-Abortion, Hutaree, Nazi Germany although there are plenty more examples.

I don't think body count is really a good measure though.

Two of those, I don't think they've been really active for many decades. They are not feared, they are laughing stocks. Other one, I have never heard of it. Another, I don't think they committed any atrocities.

They have every right to be offended, pissed, mad, angry, sad, upset or any other emotion, which is what makes this country what it is. Doesn't mean anything or anyone has to change based on that fact alone.

And I can agree to disagree on that, 100%. In my view, relationship, courtesy, humbleness, etc., they are the most underrated things in the world. What law tells you is one thing. But sometimes, at least to some people, being the bigger person, regardless of what the rules permit you to do something, can harvest something much bigger than building your mosque.

You assume that I'm trying to stop the mosque, when I'm sharing my philosophy with you. Way I look at it, you play your cards right, the city will ask you to build the mosque there. It might take a really long time, or it might never happen. But in the end, you are more likely to have an ally, not an "opposition".

It's called satire.

Really.....

Do you need to know what the Pope thinks about the sexual predator priests to understand how Catholics around the world feel about it?

I don't get it. I can tell you that I despise them for what they did, but I'm missing your point.

Muslim leaders always condemn terrorists. However, they also are not afraid to condemn the USA for killing more innocent people over there than any islamic terrorists have killed anywhere. Demagogues do not like that last part. It inconveniences their bombastic jingoist worldviews.

I totally agree with you. One killing doesn't equal lesser charge than the other. It's just that I think Miller's view has some valid points. These extremists are part of their religious groups. They would be much better at policing themselves than any American intelligence agencies would be at hunting them down IMO.

I don't agree with much of the U.S. military involvement overseas either, but that's a whole other issue, isn't it?

 

[Omnis]

I don't get it. I can tell you that I despise them for what they did, but I'm missing your point.

My point is why care what leaders have to say? The priest controversy is obviously a disgrace for catholics. Likewise, muslims have similar feelings about terrorists. Do we really need to hold it over their heads? I mean, there is even a trend to blame them for terrorism just because of their religion. It's ridiculous!

Besides, if you were a leader, why would you have anything to say to a bunch of cheerleaders of a foreign policy that kills 300 9/11s worth of innocent people? It looks really, really stupid for talking heads to be so butthurt and demanding of an apology from a region of the world when they parade around such a deadly, bellicose foreign policy.

I totally agree with you. One killing doesn't equal lesser charge than the other. It's just that I think Miller's view has some valid points. These extremists are part of their religious groups. They would be much better at policing themselves than any American intelligence agencies would be at hunting them down IMO.

I don't agree with much of the U.S. military involvement overseas either, but that's a whole other issue, isn't it?

Not really. They're very closely involved because the only reason we have problems with extremists is because of military involvement overseas.

 

[Famine]

The bigger issue is not the mosque.

The biggest issue is that it's not a mosque. And that it's two blocks away from the WTC. Suitable land in NYC doesn't exactly grow on trees. Charlie Brooker comments (probably a language warning - it may be the Guardian, but also it's Charlie Brooker). As a teaser:

The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall ... The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger...

 

[Omnis]

Well there you go then. Hilarious article.

 

[Famine]

That's Charlie Brooker for you.

Try and get hold of his Screenwipe or You Have Been Watching programmes. Slightly more stern language warning on those, mind.

 

[a6m5]

My point is why care what leaders have to say? The priest controversy is obviously a disgrace for catholics. Likewise, muslims have similar feelings about terrorists. Do we really need to hold it over their heads? I mean, there is even a trend to blame them for terrorism just because of their religion. It's ridiculous!

Besides, if you were a leader, why would you have anything to say to a bunch of cheerleaders of a foreign policy that kills 300 9/11s worth of innocent people? It looks really, really stupid for talking heads to be so butthurt and demanding of an apology from a region of the world when they parade around such a deadly, bellicose foreign policy.

Well, in the Catholic Church issue, they most definitely should have done something to stop it. Way they just let it go on & on, in my eyes, they were accessory to the crimes committed. That however has more to do with the politics, and not the religion. It happened with the Catholic Church, but it really could have happened anywhere.

Again, I'm just saying Dennis Miller made an interesting point. I do think that they'd be much more effective at stopping terrorism than the any agencies. Just my opinion.

Not really. They're very closely involved because the only reason we have problems with extremists is because of military involvement overseas.

I see what you mean. It's for another thread, but I think it's pretty clear that we are almost eye-to-eye on this bigger picture.

 

[Omnis]

Well, in the Catholic Church issue, they most definitely should have done something to stop it. Way they just let it go on & on, in my eyes, they were accessory to the crimes committed. That however has more to do with the politics, and not the religion. It happened with the Catholic Church, but it really could have happened anywhere.

Again, I'm just saying Dennis Miller made an interesting point. I do think that they'd be much more effective at stopping terrorism than the any agencies. Just my opinion.

I see what you mean. It's for another thread, but I think it's pretty clear that we are almost eye-to-eye on this bigger picture.

OK, well you sort of demonstrated my earlier point. Just because leadership doesn't take a position or condemn something, it doesn't mean that the membership at large has no feelings one way or the other. Most catholics are pissed and disgraced just like most muslims are.

And, again, I think they'd be more inclined to try and stop the USA from killing people in their lands before they worried about anyone else. Asking religious leaders to help stop terrorism doesn't really make any sense because Al Qaeda is not Islam.

 

[a6m5]

OK, well you sort of demonstrated my earlier point. Just because leadership doesn't take a position or condemn something, it doesn't mean that the membership at large has no feelings one way or the other. Most catholics are pissed and disgraced just like most muslims are.

But I'm not attacking any membership, or anyone for that matter.

And, again, I think they'd be more inclined to try and stop the USA from killing people in their lands before they worried about anyone else. Asking religious leaders to help stop terrorism doesn't really make any sense because Al Qaeda is not Islam.

We can argue all day long about how "Al Qaeda" is not Islam. The point I brought up has to do with how tightly they have infiltrated the Muslim community. They operate smack in middle of it, Islam or not.

Again, I just looked at it as an interesting point. I am not saying that we should round up the Muslim leaders, force them to work for the CIA. If they wanted to help, they'd be much more efficient and effective, but like you said.......

 

[astrosdude91]

What some people don't realize is that there is already a Mosque of sorts inside the Pentagon, which ofcourse was also attacked on 9/11. Heck, it was still there on 9/12. But I don't see anyone getting hot and bothered about that.

And the Mosque is already built. It's an old Burlington Coat Factory. Just leave it to Fox News and their right wing propaganda to rub their noses in this. And the same person who is funding the Mosque also owns half of Fox. There is the fun and ironic fact of the day!

 

[Ustasa]

It's incredibly ironic that the same government that supposedly fights for freedom, is stripping its own citizens of it on home soil.

It's even more incredibly ironic how U.S. citizens just let it mozy on in .

 

[analog]

That's Charlie Brooker for you.

Try and get hold of his Screenwipe or You Have Been Watching programmes. Slightly more stern language warning on those, mind.

Sorry for being off-topic but thanks for making me aware Charlie Brooker has a column in The Guardian ( should've done some research myself ) as I only saw him on the telly and he seems to be the voice of reason whilst at the same time being extremely funny and erudite in making things clear to me in regard to how the whole media industry actually functions.
And making things clear does involve using language which to some might be offensive, although I'm more offended in discovering some of the reality he picks apart and exposes, not by the language he uses which just makes me cry with laughter every time.

 

[a6m5]

Just leave it to Fox News and their right wing propaganda to rub their noses in this. And the same person who is funding the Mosque also owns half of Fox. There is the fun and ironic fact of the day!

The whole time, I was thinking conspiracy. Wars & conflicts makes money for many crooked people. Heck, dispute like this can buy ratings for a news network.

Crooks don't want resolutions in Middle East. They don't want to find Osama.

I think it's even more amazing how people don't realize that.

 

[Ustasa]

noob616;3995083]Sure, the decision lacks tact, but on what grounds can anyone block it? There's absolutely nothing other than blind misguided racism being directed towards Islam. It's sickening to me that there is such strong opposition. How about we ban Catholic Churches in Europe because it's where the Crusades were?

You think the Catholic religion has not taken a dive with constant accusations of Church paedophilia and constant mocking of the Catholic faith it is now only a past time for a butt of jokes and finger pointing (The new religion is to up-size) and be bombarded by constant media on what you should say and think and if it is not in line with what the media gods let you think you will be persecuted and labeled , do not think the media gods are targeting Islam next .

EDIT:

But I'm not attacking any membership, or anyone for that matter.

We can argue all day long about how "Al Qaeda" is not Islam. The point I brought up has to do with how tightly they have infiltrated the Muslim community. They operate smack in middle of it, Islam or not.

Again, I just looked at it as an interesting point. I am not saying that we should round up the Muslim leaders, force them to work for the CIA. If they wanted to help, they'd be much more efficient and effective, but like you said.......

Maybe you have it around the wrong way Hollywood is not real as Fox news is not real so why should Al Qaeda be real or sorry was that bombs of mass destruction or wait were we not meant to liberate someone I just can't seem to put my finger$$$ on it .

Also the who is not to say the CIA is not in partnership with these supposed Muslims ?

They have had many other bizarre partnerships why not this also , CIA Muslims always look scarier !

 

[Dotini]

Back for a just moment to the original thrust of this thread: If we are to indite and condemn anyone it must be the neo-cons. Over and over and over again, without letup.

Most sincerely,
Dotini

 

[Ustasa]

Back for a just moment to the original thrust of this thread: If we are to indite and condemn anyone it must be the neo-cons. Over and over and over again, without letup.

Most sincerely,
Dotini

Then your country would fall in on itself like a house of cards and not have a leg to stand on ?

 

[Keef]

Then your country would fall in on itself like a house of cards and not have a leg to stand on ?

The people worth listening to would be able to be heard and would rise to fill the gap. People like Ron Paul. Right now it's difficult for him to be heard by everyday Americans because the neo-cons use their outside voices in the restroom.

 

[Joel]

It's even more incredibly ironic how U.S. citizens just let it mozy on in .

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this...