Ron Paul has it right about the mosque debate

[Famine]

I hope you will find this to be related that if government's really found Muslims to be so threatening and dangerous as they portray on news networks around the world they would not be allowing such a huge influx to become citizens .

First Amendment.

Also, "huge influx"? Of whom? From where? Since when?

It seems nobody likes metaphors any more ? Sorry for the confusion

Metaphors are old hat. As old as the hills, in fact.


Incidentally, stop double-posting. Your double-posts in this thread have been merged, so you can see what they ought to look like.

 

[Omnis]

Can't really trust Wiki but I found this sub section in there. I was talking to my co worker about this and she states that Mosques are built on conquered land. I will have to do some more research to see if that is true or not.

Know what else is built on conquered land? Your house, Wal Mart, the mall, and everything else.

I bet your co-worker got that tidbit of information from the moron protester and her cute sign.

 

[Ustasa]

First Amendment.

Also, "huge influx"? Of whom? From where? Since when?


Influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc

If Muslims were such a threat as these major countries and their news services made them out to be no way would they allow them into their countries First Amendment or not .

 

[Scaff]

First Amendment.

Also, "huge influx"? Of whom? From where? Since when?

Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc

If Muslims were such a threat as these major countries and their news services made them out to be no way would they allow them into their countries First Amendment or not .

You see the problem with that claim is simply that the real data doesn't back it up.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0075.pdf

US census data clearly shows that in 2008 the US had more Jehovah’s Witness than Muslims (by half a million). And that's not even separating out the Muslims born in the US from the immigrant ones.

We have a very low threshold of tolerance for unsupported nonsense being passed off as fact here at GT Planet. An area you seem to be on the brink of exceeding by epic proportions right now.

I will make this plain and simple. Do not try and pass off rumour or hearsay as fact, and unless the 'fact' in question is common knowledge then you best supply a source as well (as I have just done) or be ready to get shot down.


Scaff

 

[Alex.]

Let's say some Christian extremists bomb a major building in a main city of a predominantly muslim nation. I can't see a church being built there. Are Americans supposed to feel like 'the better men' because they will allow it?

 

[Famine]

Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc

Which isn't true.

G12 and EU countries tend to receive Islamic migrants from nearby countries - Germany from Turkey (Germany has a long connection with Turkey, reinforced by gastarbeiter), Spain/France from North Africa (Morocco/Algeria) and suchlike.

US immigration in 2009 was about equal with US immigration in 1907 (though, obviously, at a much lower rate since the native population is now much larger). It peaked in 1991 at 1.8 million and hasn't come close to that in any single year since.

As for the peak being the last 15 years? There were more Iranian immigrants to the US in the 80s than there were in either the 90s or 00s (98,000 compared to 77,000 and 76,000). There were fewer immigrants from Afghanistan in 2000-2009 than there were from Canada in 2006 alone (23,000 total compared to 24,000 single year) despite comparatively similar populations (29m vs. 34m), and fewer from Iraq in the last decade (50,254) than that renowned warzone of the Phillippines in almost any single year in that decade (for example, 58,107 in 2009).

As for refugees? Afghanistan managed fewer asylum seekers to the USA in the entire last decade than the number that came from Bhutan - BHUTAN - in just 2009. And Bhutan's population is 2.4% as much as Afghanistan's.

BHUTAN!

(to save you looking it up - 75% Buddhism, 24% Hinduism).

To put all these numbers into context, immigration from Afghanistan and Iraq in the entire period of 2000-2009 account for 1.1% of all US immigration (legal and not). The US gets more legal Mexican migrants than that every year. There is no data to support your assertion that there is a "huge influx" of Muslims from war-affected countries in the last 15 years.

If Muslims were such a threat as these major countries and their news services made them out to be no way would they allow them into their countries First Amendment or not.

First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Quick summary of that first part. They can't make a federal law regarding any religion. Preventing Muslims from arriving in the US would require a federal law regarding that religion.


*2009 Immigration Yearbook, Department of Homeland Security; Available online at the DHS homepage

 

[Scaff]

Let's say some Christian extremists bomb a major building in a main city of a predominantly muslim nation. I can't see a church being built there. Are Americans supposed to feel like 'the better men' because they will allow it?

In a word 'yes'.

After all if Iran can manage to tolerate 11 synagogue's, a Jewish hospital, an OAP home and cemetery in Tehran; along with having a Jewish representative on its parliament. Then I don't personally see the issue with letting a not-mosque be built not at ground zero.
Source - http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html

Given that it would seem that the Iranian's have shown themselves to be more tolerant of the 'enemy' than we in west are often capable of, I would say we not only should but need to 'be the better men' (this of course does not overlook the issues that Jews face in Iran - but does illustrate that Islam/Muslims are not as hideously intolerant as many would feel more comfortable believing).


Scaff

 

[Famine]

Not to mention the part where the not-mosque not at Ground Zero is part of a foundation aimed at improving "Muslim-West relations".

 

[Ustasa]

You see the problem with that claim is simply that the real data doesn't back it up.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0075.pdf

US census data clearly shows that in 2008 the US had more Jehovah’s Witness than Muslims (by half a million). And that's not even separating out the Muslims born in the US from the immigrant ones.

We have a very low threshold of tolerance for unsupported nonsense being passed off as fact here at GT Planet. An area you seem to be on the brink of exceeding by epic proportions right now.

I will make this plain and simple. Do not try and pass off rumor or hearsay as fact, and unless the 'fact' in question is common knowledge then you best supply a source as well (as I have just done) or be ready to get shot down.


Scaff

Sorry I forgot popular opinion and random digit dialing census's rule above all else including sensibilities !

It is funny how you expect a random digit dialing census to work on Muslims that are coming from a war torn country that first of all do not speak English well (if at all) and secondly to expect them to understand the nature of the phone call which they would most likely find the experience frightening and even if they did understand any of it they would want to know why such personnel questions are being asked and again it would still come across as frightening so they would most likely just hang up out of fear (as I remember many of my friends parents joking about this when they eventually realized what it really was) , but I guess because you do not care about the human side of things , and the officially researched fact you are hiding behind make you definitely know what you are on about because numbers and facts and official documents never lie .

I feel you have to think more worldly and not just to your English sensibilities .

Instead of desperately (and unsuccessfully) trying to shoot someone down try conversing with them as it is clear to me you carry that very bad English trait that is to shoot first and then ask questions later (you will make more friends this way) .

As for the rest I am sure it is your own internal struggle (and own hearsay's) including those English sensibilities combined with that Super Status chipping away at that facade that has left you so confused that have shot your self in the foot (as I have allowed) of which that ego of yours seems to be very unprepared .

It is a conversation of opinions (not fact if we had the facts we would not be having this conversation) no need to get emotionally unstable of epic proportions . I am not here to make enemies as you clearly seem to want , so please reply with an emotionally stable response and not a tantrum that was bandied around here prior .

Please in future do not abuse your Super Status badge it is your responsibility to Moderate not Dictate !

Regards Paul

 

[Famine]

Sorry I forgot popular opinion and random digit dialing census's rule above all else including sensibilities !

It is funny how you expect a random digit dialing census to work on Muslims that are coming from a war torn country that first of all do not speak English well (if at all) and secondly to expect them to understand the nature of the phone call which they would most likely find the experience frightening and even if they did understand any of it they would want to know why such personnel questions are being asked and again it would still come across as frightening so they would most likely just hang up out of fear (as I remember many of my friends parents joking about this when they eventually realized what it really was) , but I guess because you do not care about the human side of things , and the officially researched fact you are hiding behind make you definitely know what you are on about because numbers and facts and official documents never lie .

And the Department of Homeland Security report I cited? No doubt that's less accurate than your data-less assertions too?

I feel you have to think more worldly and not just to your American sensibilities .

Instead of desperately (and unsuccessfully) trying to shoot someone down try conversing with them as it is clear to me you carry that very bad American trait that is to shoot first and then ask questions later (you will make more friends this way) .

I feel you have to try not to assume everyone on this site is American. Scaff's location is quite clearly stated underneath "Location:".

As for the rest I am sure it is your own internal struggle (and own hearsay's) including those American sensibilities combined with that Super Status chipping away at that facade that has left you so confused that have shot your self in the foot (as I have allowed) of which that ego of yours seems to be very unprepared .

It is a conversation of opinions (not fact if we had the facts we would not be having this conversation) no need to get emotionally unstable of epic proportions . I am not here to make enemies as you clearly seem to want , so please reply with an emotionally stable response and not a wild west show (tantrum) that was bandied around here prior .

Please in future do not abuse your Super Status badge it is your responsibility to Moderate not Dictate !

Regards Paul

There was no abuse of any badges.

You made an assertion. That assertion is not backed up - rather contradicted - by available data. Your assertion is thus untrue. If you continue to assert it, then we have a problem as that behaviour is included in the Acceptable Use Policy (bottom of every page on the site - have another read).

Please concentrate on your responsibilities as a member before you start telling us our responsibilities as moderators.

 

[Scaff]

Sorry I forgot popular opinion and random digit dialing census's rule above all else including sensibilities !

It is funny how you expect a random digit dialing census to work on Muslims that are coming from a war torn country that first of all do not speak English well (if at all) and secondly to expect them to understand the nature of the phone call which they would most likely find the experience frightening and even if they did understand any of it they would want to know why such personnel questions are being asked and again it would still come across as frightening so they would most likely just hang up out of fear (as I remember many of my friends parents joking about this when they eventually realized what it really was) , but I guess because you do not care about the human side of things , and the officially researched fact you are hiding behind make you definitely know what you are on about because numbers and facts and official documents never lie .

As apposed to the empirical data you have provided to back up your claim of a "huge influx".

I have at the very least shown (as has Famine) that you claim holds no ground at all.

Care to prove my wrong, then go for it. Provide data (nor hearsay) that clearly shows a "huge influx" of Muslims into the 'west' over the last 15 years.

I will be waiting.

I feel you have to think more worldly and not just to your American sensibilities .

I'm not American.

I was born in the UK and in my (almost) forty years on this planet have worked with people from almost every continent. I has worked directly with people of all races and cultures, including spending a great deal of time in the middle east (and area my father worked in for 15 years).

My marriage is both cross religious (I am Protestant and my wife Catholic) and cross cultural (I am white my wife is anglo-indian).

In a nutshell you are both wrong about my background (and you could not be more wrong) and my 'worldly nature'.

I also find it quite amusing to be mocked (inaccurately at that) by someone who picks the name of a fascistic movement responsible for mass-murder as there user-name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše

Instead of desperately (and unsuccessfully) trying to shoot someone down try conversing with them as it is clear to me you carry that very bad American trait that is to shoot first and then ask questions later (you will make more friends this way) .

Not American.

As for the rest I am sure it is your own internal struggle (and own hearsay's) including those American sensibilities combined with that Super Status chipping away at that facade that has left you so confused that have shot your self in the foot (as I have allowed) of which that ego of yours seems to be very unprepared .

Still not American.

It is a conversation of opinions (not fact if we had the facts we would not be having this conversation) no need to get emotionally unstable of epic proportions . I am not here to make enemies as you clearly seem to want , so please reply with an emotionally stable response and not a wild west show (tantrum) that was bandied around here prior .

You did not state opinion. You stated that a "huge influx" had occurred in the last 15 years.

That is specific enough to warrant explanation and source material.

You will also find that you are alone in your belief that I am emotional unstable and or throwing a tantrum. You however seem to not like being asked to provide source material based on your own claims.

By the way - still not American so no Wild West Shows I'm afraid.

Please in future do not abuse your Super Status badge it is your responsibility to Moderate not Dictate !

Regards Paul

Let me be quite clear about this. The staff here can be as dictatorial in regard to the AUP as we like and the single person I will take advise from in that regard is the site owner. The person who sets the rules and asks the staff to enforce the rules.

I would be well within that mandate to ban you on the spot for your user name alone.

So cut the attitude and if you are asked to source a claim in future you either do so or you withdraw the claim. Don't like the way we operate as a site then feel free to leave.


Scaff

 

[Ustasa]

First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Quick summary of that first part. They can't make a federal law regarding any religion. Preventing Muslims from arriving in the US would require a federal law regarding that religion.


*2009 Immigration Yearbook, Department of Homeland Security; Available online at the DHS homepage

It is a shame that news networks cannot take in these simple laws as the media networks have more impact than the government .

So maybe the media networks need to abide by some amendments (as they are rogue to your way of life and future) as when they visually carpet bomb world wide throughout the news how evil Muslims are and how every Mosque virtually has a terrorist splinter cell in it , no one has a chance of escaping such world wide terror .

It is sad to see such faith in a government and amendments that have taken away virtually all English industry and the working English middle class for profit and a quick buck .

 

[Scaff]

It is a shame your news networks cannot take in these simple laws as your media networks have more impact then your government .

So maybe your media networks need to abide by some amendments (as they are rogue to your way of life and future) as when they visually carpet bomb world wide throughout the news how evil Muslims are and how every Mosque virtually has a terrorist splinter cell in it (also assisted by your fantastic propaganda engine known as Hollywood) no one has a chance of escaping such world wide terror .

It is sad to see such faith in a government and amendments that have taken away virtually all American industry and the working American middle class for profit and a quick buck .

Famine's not American either, nor does he own or is he responsible for American media outlets.

And I want a response to the inaccurate vitriol you spewed forth in regard to my background and life.


Scaff

 

[Famine]

It is a shame your news networks cannot take in these simple laws as your media networks have more impact then your government.

So maybe your media networks need to abide by some amendments (as they are rogue to your way of life and future) as when they visually carpet bomb world wide throughout the news how evil Muslims are and how every Mosque virtually has a terrorist splinter cell in it (also assisted by your fantastic propaganda engine known as Hollywood) no one has a chance of escaping such world wide terror.

Our media networks are mainly owned by an Australian - one who's nearly as good at making assertions and then completely ignoring all evidence that contradicts it as you appear to be - and the First Amendment doesn't apply to my government.

Assumptions, eh? What a pain they can be.

 

[DK]

It seems to me that by the logic of those opposing the Islamic cultural centre 2 blocks away from Ground Zero, then Germans shouldn't be allowed to own property in Israel, the Japanese shouldn't be allowed to own property in the numerous countries they conquered prior to 1945, the British shouldn't be allowed to own property in India, Ireland, America...in fact any country they conquered, and Europeans shouldn't be allowed to own property in Africa or the Americas.

 

[Joel]

It is a shame your news networks cannot take in these simple laws as your media networks have more impact then your government .

It's a shame you're refraining from looking at the bar underneath people's avatar which says Location. (Also, it seems very likely that your media networks have painted a very unfavourable and incorrect picture of Americans for you).




On topic, all the data invalidates the claim of a "huge influx" of Muslim's to the West, yet you still claim that you're correct? You seem to be implying that the US Government agency responsible for collecting data on the population is a completely unreliable source, but your own ideas you've fabricated in your own mind are reliable. Uhhhmmmm...right.....

 

[a6m5]

It seems to me that by the logic of those opposing the Islamic cultural centre 2 blocks away from Ground Zero, then Germans shouldn't be allowed to own property in Israel, the Japanese shouldn't be allowed to own property in the numerous countries they conquered prior to 1945, the British shouldn't be allowed to own property in India, Ireland, America...in fact any country they conquered, and Europeans shouldn't be allowed to own property in Africa or the Americas.

Justin made very similar point to me earlier. Let me explain why I told him that is not the same thing at all.

First of all, the strong opposition must exist to be compared to this issue. It's not at all like McDonalds being built in Tokyo, or Toyota opening a plant in China. It would be closer to Imperial Japan Museum in Nanjing, or Harry Truman Statue in Hiroshima. Still not the same thing, but you get the idea.

To be perfectly clear, I am not condemning the community center project. And what I'm about to say, I'm trying to explain the opposing sentiments to you. I am not arguing it, I am not supporting it, I am explaining it. People who are building this community center(w/mosque in it), people who organized 9/11 attacks, they have both done so in the name of same cause. In the "name" only.

Since I had to answer bunch of unnecessary questions last time, let me say one more time that I'm just explaining where the anger, where the sentiments are coming from. While I can't tell you how I might feel if I was from New York, having experienced 9/11 from Oregon, I feel very little in regards to this community center being built near Ground Zero. It's very clear that while they both worship same god, they do so in opposite manner. One, in peace. The other, by killing. I don't know if I mentioned it before, and this isn't directed to driftking, but before some members question me for "my" views, I want to explain that I think I understand. This post is about how I have no beef, but why some do.

 

[nk4e]

It is a shame your news networks cannot take in these simple laws as your media networks have more impact then your government .

So maybe your media networks need to abide by some amendments (as they are rogue to your way of life and future) as when they visually carpet bomb world wide throughout the news how evil Muslims are and how every Mosque virtually has a terrorist splinter cell in it (also assisted by your fantastic propaganda engine known as Hollywood) no one has a chance of escaping such world wide terror .

It is sad to see such faith in a government and amendments that have taken away virtually all American industry and the working American middle class for profit and a quick buck .

What does all that have to do with the First Amendment? To me, it seems that we are really getting off topic and somewhat personal for a opinions.

 

[Ustasa]

As apposed to the empirical data you have provided to back up your claim of a "huge influx".

I have at the very least shown (as has Famine) that you claim holds no ground at all.

Care to prove my wrong, then go for it. Provide data (nor hearsay) that clearly shows a "huge influx" of Muslims into the 'west' over the last 15 years.

I will be waiting.




I'm not American.

I was born in the UK and in my (almost) forty years on this planet have worked with people from almost every continent. I has worked directly with people of all races and cultures, including spending a great deal of time in the middle east (and area my father worked in for 15 years).

My marriage is both cross religious (I am Protestant and my wife Catholic) and cross cultural (I am white my wife is anglo-indian).

In a nutshell you are both wrong about my background (and you could not be more wrong) and my 'worldly nature'.

I also find it quite amusing to be mocked (inaccurately at that) by someone who picks the name of a fascistic movement responsible for mass-murder as there user-name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše




Not American.




Still not American.



You did not state opinion. You stated that a "huge influx" had occurred in the last 15 years.

That is specific enough to warrant explanation and source material.

You will also find that you are alone in your belief that I am emotional unstable and or throwing a tantrum. You however seem to not like being asked to provide source material based on your own claims.

By the way - still not American so no Wild West Shows I'm afraid.





Let me be quite clear about this. The staff here can be as dictatorial in regard to the AUP as we like and the single person I will take advise from in that regard is the site owner. The person who sets the rules and asks the staff to enforce the rules.

I would be well within that mandate to ban you on the spot for your user name alone.

So cut the attitude and if you are asked to source a claim in future you either do so or you withdraw the claim. Don't like the way we operate as a site then feel free to leave.


Scaff

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iraq.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-afghanistan.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iran.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Albania.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Bosnia_Herzegovina.pdf

In Australia the Muslim population has more than doubled since 1996 -
http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/muslims_in_australia.html

As for you trying to affiliate me with Fascist Mass Murderers you must first take a good hard look at your own heritage/history before you try to pass judgment as throughout the latter end of the millennia it has caused the most world wide atrocities where ever it has forcibly settled virtually wiping out entire cultures , your country was virtually founded on Mass Murder not to mention your inhumane slave trade , the British Empire has made living off someone else's back a fine art . (living off some one else's back is not a worldly nature)

Regards Paul

 

[Scaff]

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iraq.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-afghanistan.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iran.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Albania.pdf

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Bosnia_Herzegovina.pdf

Great you found the numbers, now lets take a look at them.

Total numbers in the US (by country of origin)
Iraq - 89,890
Afghan - 45,195
Iran - 283,225
Albania - 38,665
Bosnia/Hert - 98,765

Total - 555,740

US Population - 307,006,550

That's makes the numbers you sourced take up a whole 0.18% of the US population. About as far from a huge influx from these countries as you can get.

All you have done with these numbers is contradict yourself.

In Australia the Muslim population has more than doubled since 1996 -
http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/muslims_in_australia.html

No it hasn't.

Your own source contains a chart that show the Australian muslim population in 1996 was around 200,000, in 2006 is was around 340,000. That is not more than doubled (unless Australia has developed a new form of maths from the rest of the world - something I know from my own Australian friends is not the case).

In addition the Australian Muslim population is 1.58% of the population (from the 2006 figures), hardly a huge percentage of the overall population. Particular given that with a rough annual population growth of 1.69% (source World Bank 2008), the natural population increase per year in Australia far exceeds the total Muslim population the country has.

As for you trying to affiliate me with Fascist Mass Murderers........

You are about a second away from an infraction with this one.

I did not pick your user name, you did. I did not affiliate you with the Ustasa, you did when you picked that user name.

Given that we have already had (before and totally independent of this discussion) one member complain about it, I would say that you have some explaining to do.

If you ever claim that I (or any other member here at GT Planet) has done something you know they did not, it will be treated as the AUP violation it is.

........you must first take a good hard look at your own heritage/history before you try to pass judgment as throughout the latter end of the millennia it has caused the most world wide atrocities where ever it has forcibly settled virtually wiping out entire cultures , your country was virtually founded on Mass Murder not to mention your inhumane slave trade , the British Empire has made a living off someone else's back a fine art . (living off some one else's back is not a worldly nature)

Regards Paul

Sorry but am I personally responsible for the entire history of the country I live in?

Clearly I am not (not would international law of any form hold me so), this is a rather weak and pathetic argument. One that would just as easily allow you to be held to account for the treatment of Aboriginals or the 'Forgotten Children'. No country is innocent, to try and hold natives of a country accountable for actions they took no part in (and to do so to try and worm your way out of your own idiocy) is quite frankly beyond logic.

None of which distracts me from the fact that you have still not addressed your reasons for accusing me (inaccurately) of being American (which I am not) and making sweeping and ludicrous accusations about me and my background that are both false and baseless.

I have given you more than enough time to address these and will give you one last chance to do so. I expect you to apologise for the insults and inaccuracies (not that I consider being American to be an insult but it most certainly is inaccurate in my case), I had hoped that you would be 'man' enough to do so without request, seems that was a little too much to hope for.

I would also warn that to continue in the vain you are will see your membership here be a very short one.


Edited to add: I have also just noticed that you have attempted to hide your own mistakes by changing every mention of me as American from your post to English. A rather foolish thing to do given two things.

1. You can't change my quotes and editing your own will not affect them.
2. The staff can view all posts with a change log that allows the original and the edits to be shown, along with the date and time the changes were made.

I strongly suggest you think about your next post, as given your track record of abuse, miss-direction, opinion posted as fact and down-right nonsense, it could well be your last.



Scaff

 

[Famine]

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iraq.pdf

Datasheet says: One half of the total population currently living in the US entered in the period 1990-2000; One half did not.

Immigration rate rose in that decade from 67.7/m to 158.5/m.

Iraqi population is 97% Islam (split 65 Shia to 35 Sunni) - reducing rates of Iraqi Muslim immigration to 65.7/m and 153.7/m.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-afghanistan.pdf

Datasheet says: One third of the total population currently living in the US entered in the period 1990-2000; Two-thirds did not.

Immigration rate fell in that decade from 97.8/m to 55.5/m.

Afghan population is 99% Islam (split 80 Sunni to 20 Shia) - reducing rates of Afghan Muslim immigration to 96.8/m and 54.9/m.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-iran.pdf

Datasheet says: One quarter of the total population currently living in the US entered in the period 1990-2000; Three quarters did not.

Immigration rate fell in that decade from 379.0/m to 259.3/m.

Iranian population is 98% Islam (split 90 Shia to 10 Sunni) - reducing rates of Iranian Muslim immigration to 371.4/m and 254.1/m.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Albania.pdf

Not relevant to original claim:

"Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc"

Unless there was a war in Albania I missed since 1995? And no, Kosovo was part of the former Yugoslavia.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Bosnia_Herzegovina.pdf

Datasheet says: 95% of the total population currently living in the US entered in the period 1990-2000

Immigration rate rose in that decade from 7.5/m to 322.0/m.

Bosnian population is 45% Islam (no subsets readily available) - reducing rates of Bosnian Muslim immigration to 3.4/m and 144.9/m.


So, in total, from the "war effected countries" (sic) Islamic migration rates rose from 537.3 migrants per million US population in the decade 1980-1989 to 607.6 migrants per million US population in the decade 1990-1999. An increase of 13%. Amusingly the US population in those two decades 1980-2000 rose 23%.

Even if you ignore the fact you've presented data which doesn't include 10 of the last 15 years despite citing the last 15 years as your sample, even including 1990-1995 as data in your favour because the census doesn't demarcate that set and even ignoring the part where you've already pooh-poohed this source as a suitable for this discussion, it doesn't back you up when you say there has been a "Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc" in the case of the US.

In Australia the Muslim population has more than doubled since 1996 -
http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/muslims_in_australia.html

No idea what chart you're looking at, but the one in that article shows that the Muslim population in Australia has less than doubled since 1996:

In fact it shows only a 75% numerical increase - 7.5% a year - and they represented a massive 1.7% of your population compared to 1.1% 10 years previously, with no reference to their origins. The graph does show that the numbers of Hindus and Buddhists have almost exactly doubled since 1996 though. Huge influx from "war effected" (sic) countries?

As for you trying to affiliate me with Fascist Mass Murderers you must first take a good hard look at your own heritage/history before you try to pass judgment as throughout the latter end of the millennia it has caused the most world wide atrocities where ever it has forcibly settled virtually wiping out entire cultures , your country was virtually founded on Mass Murder not to mention your inhumane slave trade , the British Empire has made living off someone else's back a fine art . (living off some one else's back is not a worldly nature)

Had Scaff chosen a name like "Clive of India" or "The Royal Africa Company", you might have a point. However, he hasn't and you have no reason to assume any position of his regarding the support of colonialism or slavery.

You, on the other hand, have chosen a name of a fascist police force held to have primary responsibility for the holocaust during World War 2 in the former Yugoslavia. Yes, we've already had complaints about it before you started posting.


So now we have three problems. You're continuing to assert a point which you, by now, know is not true. You have a username which causes offence (your defence for which can be summed as "Yeah, well, you're British"). You're also not paying any attention to direct moderator instruction. Have a look down at the bottom of the page and click on the part that says "Acceptable Use Policy" (if you're too lazy, here it is). Have another read. Adjust your behaviour accordingly.

Oh, incidentally, I liked the bit where you made a post about how my American government had done things to the American people and then, upon realising that I'm not American, simply changed every instance of the word "American" to "English". You do know that they're different countries, right? One is a capitalist nation with a guaranteed set of rights and a socialist in charge, the other is a socialist nation with no guaranteed set of rights and a capitalist in charge. The same whimsical generalisations don't apply to each equally.

 

[Omnis]

Lol at that last paragraph, Famine.

Funny how this thread has gone down such a path.

 

[Famine]

Lol at that last paragraph, Famine.

Funny how this thread has gone down such a path.

To be fair, there's only so far it could go.

"OMG! Terrorists are building a mosque at Ground Zero!"
"Errr... no they're not. Some muslims are building a community centre aimed at fostering better relations with the west that just happens to be in New York City, the location of the lowest point in Islam-West relations."

[/thread]

 

[orimarc]

Remember me to NEVER fight Famine without having all the facts in hand. Holy (pun intended) bleep.

 

[Ustasa]

You see the problem with that claim is simply that the real data doesn't back it up.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0075.pdf

US census data clearly shows that in 2008 the US had more Jehovah’s Witness than Muslims (by half a million). And that's not even separating out the Muslims born in the US from the immigrant ones.

We have a very low threshold of tolerance for unsupported nonsense being passed off as fact here at GT Planet. An area you seem to be on the brink of exceeding by epic proportions right now.

I will make this plain and simple. Do not try and pass off rumour or hearsay as fact, and unless the 'fact' in question is common knowledge then you best supply a source as well (as I have just done) or be ready to get shot down.


Scaff

This is clearly not real U.S. census data this is a American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008 (which the U.S. Census decided to use because from what I can see they do not do such stats so it is not government affiliated , Trinity College ran the survey which was in turn run by two investigators) and it is quoted as saying as method of acquiring these very general statistics the three surveys are based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential
households in the continental U.S.A (48 states)(are there not 50 ?): 54,461 interviews in 2008 (this is still based on projections from 2001 ARIS that was collaborated by a market research company ) which itself states the only real semi accurate stats are the total number , which goes on to state that All other figures are based on projections from
surveys conducted in the continental United States (48 states)(are there not 50 ?)

The 2001 ARIS survey was collaborated with a market research company named International Communications Research Corp which was funded by the Posen Foundation (a cultural foundation it is not U.S. government affiliated thus not being U.S. government census data) of which the 2008 ARIS projection is based on so this would make it very inaccurate to a census it is literally projection market research survey randomly done by telephone (there is a very big difference between market research and demography one cannot be the other) religious populations are not defined by market research they are researched and investigated by Demographers .

This is the the difference between a Demographer and a Market researcher
as you can see religious denominations are not market research .

Market research is any organized effort to gather information about markets or customers. It is a very important component of business strategy.[1] The term is commonly interchanged with marketing research; however, expert practitioners may wish to draw a distinction, in that marketing research is concerned specifically about marketing processes, while market research is concerned specifically with markets.

Demography is the statistical study of human populations. It can be a very general science that can be applied to any kind of dynamic human population, that is, one that changes over time or space (see population dynamics). It encompasses the study of the size, structure and distribution of these populations, and spatial and/or temporal changes in them in response to birth, migration, aging and death.

Also this brings me back to the answer I gave that was immediately dismissed that people would just hang up and not answer the call as it is a casual market research random-digit-dialing telephone survey projection.

Out of the 307,006,550 U.S. citizens this collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection does not come across as very accurate at all.

You see the problem is your claim is a collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection funded by a cultural foundation not the U.S. government which is not real U.S. government census data so your claim is false as it is not backed up by real U.S. government census data as you so clearly stated .

 

[Scaff]

You see the problem is your claim is a collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection funded by a cultural foundation not the U.S. government which is not real U.S. government census data so your claim is false as it is not backed up by real U.S. government census data as you so clearly stated .

The information is provided by the US census office (as you can clearly see it is carried on the US census website), the US census office provide it to cover interim data for periods the census does not cover.

That it is backed up by the Homeland Department information provided by Famine also clearly adds weight to it validity.

That the data you supplied also indicates the exact same trend (that no mass influx of Muslims has occurred from area affected by conflict), also adds to its credibility.

You are still to provide any data that supports your claim that this mass influx to the west has occurred.

I also find it quite strange that you have accused Famine and I of being under the thrall of the right-wing western press, yet your claim (of a mass influx of Muslims from the war ravaged corners of the globe to the west) is the one that closest matches the view they espouse. The view Famine and I hold (and the one all the data so far supports) runs counter to the media outlets you claim were are influenced by. Quite an issue I'm sure you would agree.


In addition you still have failed to address your reasoning for attacking me (incorrectly) as an American and of unsound mind, simply because I disagreed with you and provided data to show why I disagreed with you.


Scaff

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

surveys conducted in the continental United States (48 states)(are there not 50 ?)

There are 48 continental states

 

[Ustasa]

There are 48 continental states

Another fan I guess

It is meant to accurately depict the U.S. religious population so would not 50 be more accurate ?

The information is provided by the US census office (as you can clearly see it is carried on the US census website), the US census office provide it to cover interim data for periods the census does not cover.

That it is backed up by the Homeland Department information provided by Famine also clearly adds weight to it validity.

That the data you supplied also indicates the exact same trend (that no mass influx of Muslims has occurred from area affected by conflict), also adds to its credibility.

You are still to provide any data that supports your claim that this mass influx to the west has occurred.

I also find it quite strange that you have accused Famine and I of being under the thrall of the right-wing western press, yet your claim (of a mass influx of Muslims from the war ravaged corners of the globe to the west) is the one that closest matches the view they espouse. The view Famine and I hold (and the one all the data so far supports) runs counter to the media outlets you claim were are influenced by. Quite an issue I'm sure you would agree.


In addition you still have failed to address your reasoning for attacking me (incorrectly) as an American and of unsound mind, simply because I disagreed with you and provided data to show why I disagreed with you.


Scaff

It is a market research survey projection you cannot change this fact with your ramblings and a very inaccurate one as I have shown that is not funded by the government but a privately funded cultural foundation and it is not a U.S. census it is not even done by a demographer which is what the government uses to create a census do not try to conceal these facts by not answering these facts your claim holds no ground so please show me what you have backed up your statement with as your current one is null and void !

Do you constantly need Fammine to back yourself up or vice versa or can you stand on your own two feet and back up your now defunct claim or as you would say be man enough (remember I am just repeating not claiming you to be , but any way in your dictionary as you have stated many a time man enough is not an insult so I would be well with in my rights to use it but hey just in case as your decisions change like the wind) ?

If it will make you feel better how about an Englishmen of unsound mind just to correct the misunderstanding of who you are and also Fammine is this is not a claim just a possible (as you might indict me on such claims as you try to do at every corner with the (possible just in case) variable rule book in your hands) correction that might stop you from being repetitive and use this as a diversion again .

It is interesting how you go off topic when you cannot answer the fact that your U.S. census is not a U.S. census but just a garden variety collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection funded by a cultural foundation , no matter where the information is stored or which web site you found it in official or not a plane is a plane is a plane it cannot be anything else .

Regards Paul

 

[Famine]

No no, dig up.

It is a market research survey projection you cannot change this fact with your ramblings and a very inaccurate one as I have shown that is not funded by the government but a privately funded cultural foundation and it is not a U.S. census it is not even done by a demographer which is what the government uses to create a census do not try to conceal these facts by not answering these facts your claim holds no ground so please show me what you have backed up your statement with as your current one is null and void!

Curious how you chose to then cite the same resource. Slightly less curious that it didn't reinforce your points. Even less curious that you cited an Australian site which didn't either. And not at all curious that you've so far completely ignored the official government statistics from the Department of Homeland Security that I cited that also shows you to be barking up the wrong horse.

Do you constantly need Fammine to back yourself up or vice versa or can you stand on your own two feet and back up your now defunct claim or as you would say be man enough (remember I am just repeating not claiming you to be , but any way in your dictionary as you have stated many a time man enough is not an insult so I would be well with in my rights to use it but hey just in case as your decisions change like the wind)?

Only one claim needs backing up - yours. I'll remind you of it:

Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc

No dataset yet presented backs this claim up. All datasets so far presented contradict this claim. Weight of evidence, yadda yadda yadda.

If it will make you feel better how about an Englishmen of unsound mind just to correct the misunderstanding of who you are and also Fammine is this is not a claim just a possible (as you might indict me on such claims as you try to do at every corner with the (possible just in case) variable rule book in your hands) correction that might stop you from being repetitive and use this as a diversion again.

I'm sure that took quite some effort to type, but it doesn't make an awful lot of sense. You'd save the occasional keystroke by missing the peculiar addition to my name there also.

It is interesting how you go off topic when you cannot answer the fact that your U.S. census is not a U.S. census but just a garden variety collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection funded by a cultural foundation , no matter where the information is stored or which web site you found it in official or not a plane is a plane is a plane it cannot be anything else.

It's not even slightly interesting that you're still making the claim despite me presenting evidence from the Department of Homeland Security and demonstrating that the evidence you try to present contradicts you.

Even less so that you're still double-posting. I wonder if you're still claiming you've no idea what it is - despite several iterations from three staff members. Then again, we are all conspiring to have you banned!11!!!one*


*Onlookers' note: Yes, this claim really has been made.

 

[Scaff]

It is a market research survey projection you cannot change this fact with your ramblings and a very inaccurate one as I have shown that is not funded by the government but a privately funded cultural foundation and it is not a U.S. census it is not even done by a demographer which is what the government uses to create a census do not try to conceal these facts by not answering these facts your claim holds no ground so please show me what you have backed up your statement with as your current one is null and void !

At what point did I claim it was not from a Market Research company.

I stated that it was provided via the US census, which it is, they carry it on their website. That they carry it would strongly indicate that they believe the material to be robust enough for use, and given that you then quoted material provided by them it seems a little hypocritical to dismiss it. Either the US census department is a good enough source or it isn't.

I have not claimed it was funded by the US government and have not concealed anything. I quite clearly sourced the material and provided a link. How exactly is that concealing anything?

I would once again add that to date every piece of information has backed up my position that a mass influx has not occurred. That includes the information I supplied, the US census information you supplied and the Homeland Security information Famine supplied.

Do you constantly need Fammine to back yourself up or vice versa or can you stand on your own two feet and back up your now defunct claim or as you would say be man enough (remember I am just repeating not claiming you to be , but any way in your dictionary as you have stated many a time man enough is not an insult so I would be well with in my rights to use it but hey just in case as your decisions change like the wind) ?

Famine and I post quite independently of each other, regardless of what you may believe.

My decisions have also been 100% consistent, feel free to provide evidence of anything to the counter.

If it will make you feel better how about an Englishmen of unsound mind just to correct the misunderstanding of who you are and also Fammine is this is not a claim just a possible (as you might indict me on such claims as you try to do at every corner with the (possible just in case) variable rule book in your hands) correction that might stop you from being repetitive and use this as a diversion again .

Its not a diversion the AUP has only to date been used in regard to your repeated double posting.

However feel free to carry on with the insults, I can pretty much predict exactly how this will resolve itself.

Particularly as no one has insulted you, on the other hand you have managed now to make wide and sweepingly abusive comments about all Americans (its a good job my quote still has the bit about Wild West Gun fights - its a shame you edited that bit out of your post to try and hide it) and linked everyone who is English directly to all the ills caused by the British Empire (given that it was a British Empire I am a little annoyed that you only picked on the English - guess you must like the Scots and Welsh more). On top of that you picked a user name that will certainly be capable of offending a few.

A fine start to your membership here.

It is interesting how you go off topic when you cannot answer the fact that your U.S. census is not a U.S. census but just a garden variety collaborated market research based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households projection funded by a cultural foundation , no matter where the information is stored or which web site you found it in official or not a plane is a plane is a plane it cannot be anything else .

Regards Paul

I have not gone off topic in regard to this.

You have. Anytime someone disagrees with you, out come the insults and false accusations.

Ad-Hominem attacks do not make a solid ground for a logical argument, yet that seems top be all you can muster.

I will make this easy for you.

Post one piece of sourced evidence to back up your claim of a Mass-influx of Muslims to the west from war affected countries.

Plenty of evidence has been shown to counter this claim, but so far none to back it up.

Impress me and see if you can manage it without going off topic and/or throwing an insult into the mix.


Regards

Scaff