Ron Paul has it right about the mosque debate

[TouringDevotee]

But with a mosque in it.

I don't think it's accurate to say that "they are building a mosque", but IMO, it's also sort of misleading not to mention that this community center comes with a mosque in it.

***edit***

Now I read on the wikipedia that it does not contain a mosque in it. My apologies, as everything I read from various sources has either called it a mosque(which I wasn't buying anyway), or claimed that it will have a mosque in it. I've even mentioned it in the thread here, and I wasn't corrected, so this is news to me. So sorry.

**I see your edit and understand your comment. Let me just add why it isn't a mosque.**

It is not a mosque, it is more of a prayer hall. The very idea of it being a mosque would create much more in the form of expectations from the community, like being able to sleep there (as the community center organizers have stated). This is a very common feature of mosques.

The idea that people can travel to and sleep within the mosque is a right (as long as it is as a religious practice or to learn about Islam). Going to a mosque outside of prayer times is actually a good way to meet travelers on a spiritual journey. I met many when I traveled to Tunisia. Not that you don't get uppity middle class Muslims, who question the very idea of someone being allowed to stay in a mosque, and then get their presumptuous backsides handed to them by someone who actually studied the history of religion.

I'm guessing that they do not want to deal with this particular aspect.

 

[Joel]

IMO, it's akin to calling Heathrow a church because there's a prayer room in it.

 

[FoolKiller]

But with a mosque in it.

I don't think it's accurate to say that "they are building a mosque", but IMO, it's also sort of misleading not to mention that this community center comes with a mosque in it.

***edit***

Now I read on the wikipedia that it does not contain a mosque in it. My apologies, as everything I read from various sources has either called it a mosque(which I wasn't buying anyway), or claimed that it will have a mosque in it. I've even mentioned it in the thread here, and I wasn't corrected, so this is news to me. So sorry.

Every hospital I have been in has some form of non-denominational chapel, complete with wooden pews and stained glass. That does not suddenly make the hospital a place of worship for Christians. It is a private institution recognizing the desire of a large portion of their clients.

 

[a6m5]

Every hospital I have been in has some form of non-denominational chapel, complete with wooden pews and stained glass. That does not suddenly make the hospital a place of worship for Christians. It is a private institution recognizing the desire of a large portion of their clients.

And I am not arguing that, or anything related to it.

Like I said, I believed the numerous reports that called this a mosque(again, I didn't believe it), or community center with a mosque in it(I believed this). From google news search, TV, radio, everything.

And as I posted earlier, I mentioned it in this very thread. People started to debate me on subject that never existed(at least from me), but nobody corrected me on that!

It's not like I follow just the Fox News or anything, it's just that every article I read had "mosque" in it, I only found out from wikipedia that it in fact does not have a mosque in it.

I do apologize, I was misinformed. But again, I was never arguing what qualifies for mosque, or anything along that line.

 

[FoolKiller]

I was just pointing out that even if it did have a mosque in it there is nothing misleading.

Of course, that is all irrelevant to the fact that if it were just a mosque wouldn't change a thing.

I do see how you got confused though, as even media and public figures that don't oppose it call it a mosque. I even saw Bill Maher, who I expected to be tearing into the critics, incorrectly call it a mosque just so that he could make jokes at religion in general.

 

[a6m5]

I was just pointing out that even if it did have a mosque in it there is nothing misleading.

Of course, that is all irrelevant to the fact that if it were just a mosque wouldn't change a thing.

OK, I see what you mean. On the proper mosque being built there, it shouldn't change a thing, but everything we have seen so far obviously proves otherwise. I'm not being a smartass, just pointing out the (over)reaction by people, mostly media, involved.

In my view, there is a political conspiracy here, because these people are just doing whatever they can to make this difficult, blow it out of proportion, and everything else. It's just like in the other world news, especially in the Middle East. There is no profit(fact + metaphor) in a resolution. Last few years, more & more I'm starting to believe that players already have achieved their goal: A series of status quo. Milk the sucker as long as they can, move on to next. A job security, if you will.

I do see how you got confused though, as even media and public figures that don't oppose it call it a mosque. I even saw Bill Maher, who I expected to be tearing into the critics, incorrectly call it a mosque just so that he could make jokes at religion in general.

Just unbelievable.

 

[Nicksfix]

I was just reading some of the facebook pages about this and those people make the GT5 section look like scholars.

For the most part it was stupid "They hate us" and "it will be a terror cell" posts, but there was one that was particularly amazingly stupid.

OK how about a compromise?
Instead of turning ground zero into a mosque, lets turn a few mosques into ground zero.

I don't know if this person was serious or not, but this surely isn't going to make them stop "hating" us and don't see how it's any different from them saying they will blow us up.

Nice find Justin.The person that wrote this should be deported.

**I see your edit and understand your comment. Let me just add why it isn't a mosque.**

It is not a mosque, it is more of a prayer hall. The very idea of it being a mosque would create much more in the form of expectations from the community, like being able to sleep there (as the community center organizers have stated). This is a very common feature of mosques.

By definition from Merriam Webster - Mosque

If they pray in there,then it cam be considered a Mosque.Although some will still claim that it's only a rec.center,it still houses a Mosque in it. The thought of a Mosque so close to GZ to this very day still lies uneasy with a lot of Americans.Move it away from GZ,at least out of NYC.Trust me,there are a lot of run down neighborhoods in the NYC area that need to be tore down and re-done.Build your Mosque there,rebuild that community,leave the GZ area alone.

 

[Famine]

If they pray in there,then it cam be considered a Mosque.Although some will still claim that it's only a rec.center,it still houses a Mosque in it.

Every hospital I have been in has some form of non-denominational chapel, complete with wooden pews and stained glass. That does not suddenly make the hospital a place of worship for Christians. It is a private institution recognizing the desire of a large portion of their clients.

Not a mosque.

The thought of a Mosque so close to GZ to this very day still lies uneasy with a lot of Americans.Move it away from GZ,at least out of NYC.Trust me,there are a lot of run down neighborhoods in the NYC area that need to be tore down and re-done.Build your Mosque there,rebuild that community,leave the GZ area alone.

How far is far enough away for you? Why?

 

[Nicksfix]

Not a mosque.

According to the media and Merriam Websters it is.Until I see them change their definition of the word mosque,then it shall remain.

How far is far enough away for you? Why?

As I said,at least out of NYC,away from the general proximity of GZ.This area is still considered sacred by many citizens.

Here's a comment which was thrown out on talk radio from a listener the other day about this.

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

It kind of ties to something like this,which was also brought out on talk radio.If you were Jewish and you seen a man walking around in a Nazi SS uniform,how would you feel ? It may not affect you directly,but indirectly it might,knowing what happened in the past. Right or wrong ?

 

[Joel]

According to the media and Merriam Websters it is.Until I see them change their definition of the word mosque,then it shall remain.



As I said,at least out of NYC,away from the general proximity of GZ.This area is still considered sacred by many citizens.

Here's a comment which was thrown out on talk radio from a listener the other day about this.

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

It kind of ties to something like this,which was also brought out on talk radio.If you were Jewish and you seen a man walking around in a Nazi SS uniform,how would you feel ? It may not affect you directly,but indirectly it might,knowing what happened in the past. Right or wrong ?

There's a huge difference between what is "wrong" and what "should be illegal".


Also, I don't see anything wrong with building a community centre aimed at improving muslim-west relations not at ground zero.

 

[the Interceptor]

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

It kind of ties to something like this,which was also brought out on talk radio.If you were Jewish and you seen a man walking around in a Nazi SS uniform,how would you feel ? It may not affect you directly,but indirectly it might,knowing what happened in the past. Right or wrong ?

Technically, the latter example would only be equal to the former one if you were Jewish and you would meet someone from Germany. Let's say the German would wear leather trousers and thus would be easily identifyable as one. Should that make the Jew uneasy?

 

[Famine]

According to the media and Merriam Websters it is. Until I see them change their definition of the word mosque,then it shall remain.

The media would call it a haddock if they felt it helped them.

And as for Merriam... you need to worry about your interpretation rather than their definition. It is not a building "for public worship" of Muslims. It's a community centre with a prayer room in. A hospital usually has a chapel in it - that doesn't make it a church. Foolkiller has pointed this out many, many, many times.

As I said,at least out of NYC,away from the general proximity of GZ.This area is still considered sacred by many citizens.

Given that it's not a mosque, why would a Muslim community centre be appropriate in Jersey City, but inappropriate in New York City?

Why do you get to pick and choose which bits of the Bill of Rights other people aren't protected by?

Here's a comment which was thrown out on talk radio from a listener the other day about this.

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

It kind of ties to something like this,which was also brought out on talk radio.If you were Jewish and you seen a man walking around in a Nazi SS uniform,how would you feel ? It may not affect you directly,but indirectly it might,knowing what happened in the past. Right or wrong ?

That is possibly the most retarded thing I've ever seen committed to text. The two situations are both ridiculous and not analogous - unless you're comparing all of Islam to the Waffen SS, rather than comparing Muslims to Germans or Al Qa'ida to the Waffen SS.

You are aware that some of the victims of 9/11 were, and some of the population of the USA are Muslims, right? That's right, Americans, who are also Muslims, living in New York City. The horror of it. Why do you get to tell them they don't have the freedom to exercise their religion in a country where freedom of religion is permitted?

 

[a6m5]

Nicksfix: I also have some respect the sentiments of the locals, but none of that matter in this thread. Legally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this building being built. And bottom line, people who are building this do not call this a mosque, and while they may share their religion, they have no ties with the terrorists.

I think you are just spinning your tires here.

 

[Nicksfix]

The media would call it a haddock if they felt it helped them.

That's pretty good.

And as for Merriam... you need to worry about your interpretation rather than their definition.

I fully understand my interpretation.A mosque is a place to worship.For some to call it strictly a rec.center is wrong,it does house a mosque.Thus the insertion for definition of mosque.There is a mosque in this building.That's were this is getting out of proportion,the general name of which will be given to this building.
​

It is not a building "for public worship" of Muslims. It's a community centre with a prayer room in. A hospital usually has a chapel in it - that doesn't make it a church. Foolkiller has pointed this out many, many, many times.

Agreed to a point,and an airport is an airport.Can Muslims go in this building and worship ? If your answer is yes,then it is a public worship building.Maybe not the entire building,but at least a section of it is.

why would a Muslim community centre be appropriate in Jersey City, but inappropriate in New York City?

Once again,some still consider this sacred ground.

Why do you get to pick and choose which bits of the Bill of Rights other people aren't protected by?

Some things,like this,should be done out of respect.Sort of like a gentleman's agreement.

That is possibly the most retarded thing I've ever seen committed to text. The two situations are both ridiculous and not analogous - unless you're comparing all of Islam to the Waffen SS, rather than comparing Muslims to Germans or Al Qa'ida to the Waffen SS.

I agree.I was just pointing out the way that some Americans still feel about this.Some are still being rather prickish about the entire 9/11 incident.If you could only dial in to American talk radio and listen to some of the talk that still goes on about 9/11 and the proposed building of this centre,you would probably crash your car from laughing so hard.

You are aware that some of the victims of 9/11 were, and some of the population of the USA are Muslims, right? That's right, Americans, who are also Muslims, living in New York City. The horror of it. Why do you get to tell them they don't have the freedom to exercise their religion in a country where freedom of religion is permitted?

Quite aware,thank you.

I have not said that they could not exercise their right to political freedom.I for one am all for political and religious freedoms,so they can have at it.Go build your "centre",I don't care.Just go build it away from the proximity of GZ,in some delapidated,run down neighborhood which needs renovated,that's all.NYC already has a little Italy,now they can have a little Muslim community of their own as well.

.
Just stay away from the proximity of GZ.

That multi quote came out all wrong, .

 

[Keef]

.
Just stay away from the proximity of GZ.

You can't honestly expect to end an argument with the same ridiculous statement that got us into the argument in the first place, can you?

And yes, your quote came out all wrong. Fix it please, so we can actually quote you and continue this argument.

 

[Joey D]

It kind of ties to something like this,which was also brought out on talk radio.If you were Jewish and you seen a man walking around in a Nazi SS uniform,how would you feel ? It may not affect you directly,but indirectly it might,knowing what happened in the past. Right or wrong ?

Nazi's were out to kill Jews, Muslims are not out to kill Americans. Big difference there.

It would be like if 10 employees from say GM, Dell Computers, Starbucks, whatever went out and blew up a building, does that make that company evil? No not at all. It just so happen that some people who worked for that company were bad, just as it so happened that a few bad apples followed Islam.

 

[nk4e]

It would be like if 10 employees from say GM, Dell Computers, Starbucks, whatever went out and blew up a building, does that make that company evil? No not at all. It just so happen that some people who worked for that company were bad, just as it so happened that a few bad apples followed Islam.

Weren't there some Germans that didn't affiliate themselves with Nazi's? My coworker was accused of supporting certain morales because our CEO donated money to a politician. He kindly corrected the guest that my coworker isn't the CEO.

 

[Keef]

Weren't there some Germans that didn't affiliate themselves with Nazis? My coworker was accused of supporting certain morales because our CEO donated money to a politician. He kindly corrected the guest that my coworker isn't the CEO.

Of course, many Germans didn't affiliate themselves with Nazis, or at least when the Nazis weren't looking. Obviously German Jews didn't care much for Nazism.

 

[Joey D]

And once again Nazi's != Germans, it was just that a vast majority of Nazi's were German.

 

[Famine]

I fully understand my interpretation.A mosque is a place to worship.For some to call it strictly a rec.center is wrong,it does house a mosque.Thus the insertion for definition of mosque.There is a mosque in this building.That's were this is getting out of proportion,the general name of which will be given to this building.

Agreed to a point,and an airport is an airport.Can Muslims go in this building and worship ? If your answer is yes,then it is a public worship building.Maybe not the entire building,but at least a section of it is.

The "general name" of the building is an Islamic community centre. It contains a prayer room - not a mosque - in the same way that many hospitals contain a chapel - not a cathedral.

Once again,some still consider this sacred ground.

Two blocks away from Ground Zero? Sacred? Luckily your Constitution is quite specific on this front:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There's no sacred ground, anyone can practice any religion and, best yet, people can moan about it. "Sacred ground" is not an argument against the community centre.

If it's so sacred, why's there a strip club there?

Some things,like this,should be done out of respect.Sort of like a gentleman's agreement.

Things like lying about a community centre in Manhattan by calling it "The Ground Zero Mosque" and ignoring your own Constitution when it suits you?

The Bill of Rights isn't there to protect you from people who'd ignore your rights. It's there to protect everyone from people who'd ignore their rights.

I have not said that they could not exercise their right to political freedom.I for one am all for political and religious freedoms,so they can have at it.Go build your "centre",I don't care.Just go build it away from the proximity of GZ

Brilliant paragraph, that. It'll keep me laughing for a while.

in some delapidated,run down neighborhood which needs renovated,that's all.NYC already has a little Italy,now they can have a little Muslim community of their own as well.

Wait, wait... it's more acceptable to build an entire Islamic neighbourhood in New York City than it is to make a single building aimed at fostering Islamic-West relations in New York City? How does that work?

Just stay away from the proximity of GZ.

Give us a minimum safe distance.

While you're considering this minimum safe distance:
* The Islamic Cultural Center of New York, 1711 Third Avenue, is four miles from Ground Zero and was built in 1991.
* The Masjid al-Farah mosque, 245 West Broadway, is less than a mile from Ground Zero.
* There's already a mosque in Manhattan. It's called the Manhattan Mosque (Masjid Manhattan), at 345 Broadway. That's just about a half mile away.
* 45-51 Park Place, formerly the Burlington Coat Factory and proposed location of Cordoba House - the Islamic community centre - is currently used as an overflow mosque for Masjid al-Farah. Turning it into a community centre with a prayer room actually diminishes the Islamic religious use of the site from what occurs at present.

Enjoy.

 

[Tornado]

If it's so sacred, why's there a strip club there?

Or, for that matter, if the area is so sacred to New Yorkers why does the specific plot of land house (before it was purchased for the use of this community center) what was for all intents and purposes an abandoned building?

 

[FoolKiller]

According to the media and Merriam Websters it is.Until I see them change their definition of the word mosque,then it shall remain.

Merriam Websters definition of a church.

a building for public and especially Christian worship

So, according to Merriam Webster a hospital containing a chapel and/or prayer room is a church and can be a mosque as well. Assuming you want to read their definition of a church trhe same way you want to read their definition of mosque.

a building used for public worship by Muslims

This center is as much a mosque as a hospital is a church.

Also, I saw a guy pull out a prayer mat and do his prayers in the parking lot of my office building. The landlords had no problem with that. Is my office building's parking lot now a mosque?

As I said,at least out of NYC,away from the general proximity of GZ.This area is still considered sacred by many citizens.

So, Muslims in NYC shouldn't be allowed to have a place to worship without having to deal with tunnel/bridge traffic or take the subway?

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

I was at Pearl Harbor and saw many Japanese tourist groups. I didn't blink an eye. Japanese tourists were also on the hiking trail up to the top of Diamond Head where there are WWII bunkers you can check out. I didn't blink an eye there either.

You are aware that some of the victims of 9/11 were, and some of the population of the USA are Muslims, right? That's right, Americans, who are also Muslims, living in New York City. The horror of it. Why do you get to tell them they don't have the freedom to exercise their religion in a country where freedom of religion is permitted?

Not to mention that the WTC itself had a Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor of the south tower. The concentration of Muslims working in the area was enough to justify their own prayer room at the site. Now the idea of putting one in building two blocks away is offensive.

I should also point out that there was no protest of this prayer room's existence after a Muslim extremist bombed the WTC in 1993.

 

[TouringDevotee]

By definition from Merriam Webster - Mosque

If they pray in there,then it cam be considered a Mosque.Although some will still claim that it's only a rec.center,it still houses a Mosque in it. The thought of a Mosque so close to GZ to this very day still lies uneasy with a lot of Americans.Move it away from GZ,at least out of NYC.Trust me,there are a lot of run down neighborhoods in the NYC area that need to be tore down and re-done.Build your Mosque there,rebuild that community,leave the GZ area alone.

"a building used for public worship by Muslims"

A prayer hall is a feature of a mosque, but not a mosque in and of itself.

Your argument seems to stem from this equation:
Muslim ≠ American

On top of it all, you are telling them that they should build in an impoverished neighborhood? Are they second class citizens?

Imagine if you were at GZ looking back,remembering a loved one who lost their life that day.You look 2 blocks down the street and you see a group of group of Muslims.How would that make you feel,seeing this so close to where you lost a loved one.Sure,not all Muslims are terrorists,but the thought of seeing that may just hit you a little more hard.

It should remind me that intolerance is a horrible thing. In case you missed it, it isn't the Usama bin Ladin Mosque of 🤬 American Pigs Inc.

I wonder how that McDonald's in Hiroshima is doing.

I have not said that they could not exercise their right to political freedom.I for one am all for political and religious freedoms,so they can have at it.Go build your "centre",I don't care.Just go build it away from the proximity of GZ,in some delapidated,run down neighborhood which needs renovated,that's all.NYC already has a little Italy,now they can have a little Muslim community of their own as well.

Your odd words actually echo the American bigotry of the past, as the reason a Little Italy existed in the first place was due to American intolerance. Power in America was held by the what later became called the W.A.S.P culture, and Italians were already not considered to be white by the then notions of American whiteness (nor were the Greeks or the Irish), let alone the fact that they were majority Catholic (papists).