Ron Paul has it right about the mosque debate

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It is meant to accurately depict the U.S. religious population so would not 50 be more accurate ?

I doubt two states with smaller populations will throw off the results enough to prove your case.

 

[Detroitbb]

The community center will get built (unless the right-wing faction of the US Supreme Court decides to throw out the 1st Amendment as unconstitutional - lol)... and, frankly, it should be built and serve as an unintended symbol of tolerance.

I have yet to see or hear an argument against this proposal that wasn't rooted in bigotry.

 

[icelt]

Barring any legitimate issues with regard to zoning and/or local construction codes as they relate to the design plans (am I sure there are none) the community center should be built. I understand the "debate" is covered under the protection of free speech, but as a native citizen I am plainly disgusted it has reached such levels of bigotry and ignorance. Oh well.

 

[a6m5]

I have yet to see or hear an argument against this proposal that wasn't rooted in bigotry.

That's a big assumption of you.

 

[Ustasa]

At what point did I claim it was not from a Market Research company.

I stated that it was provided via the US census, which it is, they carry it on their website. That they carry it would strongly indicate that they believe the material to be robust enough for use, and given that you then quoted material provided by them it seems a little hypocritical to dismiss it. Either the US census department is a good enough source or it isn't.

I have not claimed it was funded by the US government and have not concealed anything. I quite clearly sourced the material and provided a link. How exactly is that concealing anything?

I would once again add that to date every piece of information has backed up my position that a mass influx has not occurred. That includes the information I supplied, the US census information you supplied and the Homeland Security information Famine supplied.



Famine and I post quite independently of each other, regardless of what you may believe.

My decisions have also been 100% consistent, feel free to provide evidence of anything to the counter.



Its not a diversion the AUP has only to date been used in regard to your repeated double posting.

However feel free to carry on with the insults, I can pretty much predict exactly how this will resolve itself.

Particularly as no one has insulted you, on the other hand you have managed now to make wide and sweepingly abusive comments about all Americans (its a good job my quote still has the bit about Wild West Gun fights - its a shame you edited that bit out of your post to try and hide it) and linked everyone who is English directly to all the ills caused by the British Empire (given that it was a British Empire I am a little annoyed that you only picked on the English - guess you must like the Scots and Welsh more). On top of that you picked a user name that will certainly be capable of offending a few.

A fine start to your membership here.



I have not gone off topic in regard to this.

You have. Anytime someone disagrees with you, out come the insults and false accusations.

Ad-Hominem attacks do not make a solid ground for a logical argument, yet that seems top be all you can muster.

I will make this easy for you.

Post one piece of sourced evidence to back up your claim of a Mass-influx of Muslims to the west from war affected countries.

Plenty of evidence has been shown to counter this claim, but so far none to back it up.

Impress me and see if you can manage it without going off topic and/or throwing an insult into the mix.


Regards

Scaff

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm
The BBC also states Islam is widely considered Europe's fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DwS1sm&sig=AHIEtbRh8smbt9AuvmLxohTM0y1edTWDag

In the above link states that Muslim immigration is at an all time high .

 

[Scaff]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm
The BBC also states Islam is widely considered Europe's fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population.

Now putting aside from the fact that you attacked the western media as a biased source of information that most of us were blinded to reality by, none of the information supplied in that piece still supports a huge influx of Muslims to the west in the last 15 years from war affected countries.

None of the figures split out Muslim population increases by cause (birth rate within the country vs. immigration).

All these figures show is that Europe has a Muslim population, which no-one has disputed; and that the population is growing. Which again no-one has disputed that - the cause of the population growth is the subject of this discussion and the BBC article provides no definitive figures by country to show how this is made up. Playing devils advocate with this information I could argue that Turkey has the highest level of Muslims and so must have the highest level of Muslim immigration within Europe. Nothing in the article either backs up or disputes that statement, despite it being patently absurd.

As an article it is of interest, but it neither supports nor dismisses your claim, as it does not contain sufficient information to do so.

As a side note, that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe is of little surprise either, given that Christian church attendance has been on the decline (source - http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php) since the 1950's a religion has to grow relatively little (in the UK at least) to be considered fast growing.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DwS1sm&sig=AHIEtbRh8smbt9AuvmLxohTM0y1edTWDag

In the above link states that Muslim immigration is at an all time high .

The above link is from the Model UN, a body set-up to educate 5-18 year old children on how the UN and other political bodies function.

That you are happy to use this as source material yet refuse to accept data that the US Census office approves shows a massive bias on your part. That this document still does not back up your claim is even more entertaining.

May I quote....

The National Intelligence Council
projects that, given uslim (sic) birth rates and continued immigration, the Muslim populaton in Europe will double by 2025.

...now lets look at that in detail.

This paper was written in 2007 and it gives a target year of 2025 for the current Muslim population of Europe to double. That's a 17 year period of time. Now the paper states that the Muslim population in Europe is 16 million, it does not state the European total population figure (a flaw in its use as a data source) but that currently stands at approx 500 million.

Currently that means Muslims make up 3.2% of the European population. If the 16 million doubles to 32 million in the next 17 years (as your paper projects) and assuming the rest of the ethnic background of Europe does not (unlikely but I am stacking the odds in your favour here) that would make 32 million out of 532 million. Which is 6% of the total population.

You see it does double, but when the final figure is 6% of the total population is not exactly the wave of Muslim take over that you and the right-wing press would like us to believe.


So I still see nothing at all that backs up your claim, particularly as the EU population is projected to peak and then decline.

The study also projects that the total population of all European countries (including Turkey, Russia and the Caucasus), which is currently just over 800 million, is expected to decline to 700 million by 2050. This will see Europe’s total share of world population decrease from the current 12 percent to around 8 percent by the 2050.

Source - http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Admin/INF/PR/2010/2010-07-22.html

However I'm fairly sure you will end up considering the IIASA to be far less valid a source than the Model UN.



Scaff

 

[Famine]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm
The BBC also states Islam is widely considered Europe's fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population.

You are kidding, right?

You rail against American and - subsequently, when you realised the people you were trying to attack weren't American - English media and refuse to accept any sources unless they're official, government sources (while saying the government are misleading us Americans English - and completely ignoring the DHS figures I gave you) and then cite the BBC?

In any case, read the damn text - like you failed to do with your previous "proof" that Australia's Muslim population has "more than doubled" in the period where it less than doubled.

The text doesn't offer any proof whatsoever of immigration rates from "war effected countries" (sic), or a "huge influx ... in past 15 or so years". Nor does it offer up immigration as the only possible answer as you do. What it does offer are numbers of Muslims in European countries. Which includes Bosnia-Herzegovina (45% Muslim - remember that wee religious war they had a few years since?), Albania (70% Muslim) and Turkey (99% Muslim), all of which have had significant Islamic populations for ten times longer than your country has even existed. Frickin' Turkey, which is 95% inside the Middle East! Then they mention Belgium's population of Muslims increasing because they're all shipping over from Bosnia - just a heads-up, but if you're going to include Bosnia and Belgium in your survey, moving people from one to the other classes as neither increase nor immigration.

They also mention Turks arriving in Germany, Moroccans arriving in Spain and Algerians arriving in France. That sounds ever so familiar...

Which isn't true.

G12 and EU countries tend to receive Islamic migrants from nearby countries - Germany from Turkey (Germany has a long connection with Turkey, reinforced by gastarbeiter), Spain/France from North Africa (Morocco/Algeria) and suchlike.

Oh yes. When I posted to rebut your remarks of a "huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years" (sic).

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DwS1sm&sig=AHIEtbRh8smbt9AuvmLxohTM0y1edTWDag

In the above link states that Muslim immigration is at an all time high .

The Model UN.

The Model UN?

Citing the Model UN for any data is like citing Modern Warfare 2 for weapon specifications.


Every data source you've cited contradicts or just plain fails to support your point of view. Every data source we've cited contradicts your point of view. Though none meet your specifications as a data source, despite you citing the news outlets you say we shouldn't trust, a faked legislative body and the sources we just cited after you said they weren't good enough. Give it up.

 

[Omnis]

Citing a model UN... !

 

[DK]

I'm pretty sure that one factor in the increase in the Muslim population of Europe is the fall of the Soviet Bloc.

 

[Ustasa]

You are kidding, right?

You rail against American and - subsequently, when you realised the people you were trying to attack weren't American - English media and refuse to accept any sources unless they're official, government sources (while saying the government are misleading us Americans English - and completely ignoring the DHS figures I gave you) and then cite the BBC?

In any case, read the damn text - like you failed to do with your previous "proof" that Australia's Muslim population has "more than doubled" in the period where it less than doubled.

The text doesn't offer any proof whatsoever of immigration rates from "war effected countries" (sic), or a "huge influx ... in past 15 or so years". Nor does it offer up immigration as the only possible answer as you do. What it does offer are numbers of Muslims in European countries. Which includes Bosnia-Herzegovina (45% Muslim - remember that wee religious war they had a few years since?), Albania (70% Muslim) and Turkey (99% Muslim), all of which have had significant Islamic populations for ten times longer than your country has even existed. Frickin' Turkey, which is 95% inside the Middle East! Then they mention Belgium's population of Muslims increasing because they're all shipping over from Bosnia - just a heads-up, but if you're going to include Bosnia and Belgium in your survey, moving people from one to the other classes as neither increase nor immigration.

They also mention Turks arriving in Germany, Moroccans arriving in Spain and Algerians arriving in France. That sounds ever so familiar...



Oh yes. When I posted to rebut your remarks of a "huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years" (sic).


The Model UN.

The Model UN?

Citing the Model UN for any data is like citing Modern Warfare 2 for weapon specifications.


Every data source you've cited contradicts or just plain fails to support your point of view. Every data source we've cited contradicts your point of view. Though none meet your specifications as a data source, despite you citing the news outlets you say we shouldn't trust, a faked legislative body and the sources we just cited after you said they weren't good enough. Give it up.

It is clear when there are wars there are huge influxes of immigrants to first world countries when I do show evidence it is now not as valid as yours even though Scaffs evidence was not as he claimed or Famines home land security were just figures which nowhere said that there was not a influx of Muslims because the mighty super moderators Famine and Scaff are beyond reproach .

None of your supposed evidence verbally states that there was not an influx (huge or not) of Muslims to first world countries during this time you can repeat to the contrary all you want .

I am a new member here wanting to have a conversation here on this thread and the first contact I get from a moderator is one that is consistently pestering me as if he has a score to settle and then the other appears from no where laying down the law with evidence he claims to be a U.S. census which it is not and goes on (with out a hello welcome or benefit of the doubt as this person might have more to add to his comment )further laying down the law as if omni powerful and all being (because he feels what he has incorrectly backed up to be true) and then goes on to arrogantly finish (as I have just done) or be ready to get shot down and then are both shocked as not to expect a return volley (you guys set the precedent not me) because of their irreproachable status and then one further goes on to whine for an apology because of his irreproachable super status get off your ego trips .

It is good to at least see that it takes two super moderators not being able to stand on their own two feet to cause such injustice .

Regards Paul

 

[Scaff]

It is clear when there are wars there are huge influxes of immigrants to first world countries when I do show evidence it is now not as valid as yours even though Scaffs evidence was not as he claimed or Famines home land security were just figures which nowhere said that there was not a influx of Muslims because the mighty super moderators Famine and Scaff are beyond reproach .

No it's not clear to see at all. In fact nothing so far posted by anyone in terms of data has backed your claim.

I have not dismissed your material at all, rather I have show how it does not support the claim you have made. However my evidence was exactly as I described it, it was sourced from the US census website (which was the only claim of its origin I made), that it was not carried out directly by them is an irrelevance as I never claimed it had been. The source link I provided was clear and unambiguous as to its exact nature. Accuse me of lying about this again and you will receive an infraction for posting knowingly false material.

The only person to date who has been misleading about figures posted has been you. You made a clear claim that material your provided showed that the Muslim population in Australia had more than doubled. Yet the material in question showed that is had in fact risen by 75%. That is not double, ergo you posted misleading information.

None of your supposed evidence verbally states that there was not an influx (huge or not) of Muslims to first world countries during this time you can repeat to the contrary all you want .

Sorry but that's not how a logical discussion works.

You made the claim, the onus is on you to prove it, something you have failed to do so far.

The evidence presented so far also clearly indicates that no huge influx has occurred at all.

I do also note that you are now attempting to move the goalposts; that an influx (i.e. increase) has occurred in the Muslim population of the west is not in discussion here. So the "huge or not" you are throwing in would appear to be a concession on your part that you are incorrect, as you did quite clearly and repeatedly insist it was huge.

The main tenant of your argument was based firmly on a number of pillars. That the Muslim population increase was:

• Huge
• from war affected countries
• to the 1st world / west
• in the last 15 years

To attempt to chance any of these reads to me as a concession that your original claim was either flawed or incorrect.

I am a new member here wanting to have a conversation here on this thread and the first contact I get from a moderator is one that is consistently pestering me as if he has a score to settle and then the other appears from no where laying down the law with evidence he claims to be a U.S. census which it is not and goes on (with out a hello welcome or benefit of the doubt as this person might have more to add to his comment )further laying down the law as if omni powerful and all being (because he feels what he has incorrectly backed up to be true) and then goes on to arrogantly finish (as I have just done) or be ready to get shot down and then are both shocked as not to expect a return volley (you guys set the precedent not me) because of their irreproachable status and then one further goes on to whine for an apology because of his irreproachable super status get off your ego trips .

Your right you are new here, and when someone disagreed with you, you took immediate offence. Calling into question that persons origin, state of mind and background.

No one was rude or abuse to you (nor have they been), however you have been extremely offensive not just on a personal level, but to entire countries.

I politely asked you to apologise for inaccurate and offensive statements you made about myself and my background. These comments were incorrect and baseless, I have not whined about it at all. However very soon I will dispense with the pleasantries and simply remove you from the site. You may claim I have not right to do so, I differ in that regard and please feel free to test me on the matter if you wish.

It is good to at least see that it takes two super moderators not being able to stand on their own two feet to cause such injustice .

Regards Paul

What injustice is that exactly?

That we have the affront to disagree with you?

That we back that disagreement with evidence?

That your own evidence does not support your claim (that is a failing in your ability to read the data)?

That you receive warnings and infractions when you break the AUP?

If these are your injustices then I can promise you will receive little sympathy from the members here, and please stop implying that Famine and I are incapable of posting on our own or arguing a point on our own. Quite frankly to the established membership who know the two of us, it just makes you look foolish. As I have already said, take a look at our posting history before you make claims like this.


Scaff

 

[Ustasa]

No it's not clear to see at all. In fact nothing so far posted by anyone in terms of data has backed your claim.

I have not dismissed your material at all, rather I have show how it does not support the claim you have made. However my evidence was exactly as I described it, it was sourced from the US census website (which was the only claim of its origin I made), that it was not carried out directly by them is an irrelevance as I never claimed it had been. The source link I provided was clear and unambiguous as to its exact nature. Accuse me of lying about this again and you will receive an infraction for posting knowingly false material.

The only person to date who has been misleading about figures posted has been you. You made a clear claim that material your provided showed that the Muslim population in Australia had more than doubled. Yet the material in question showed that is had in fact risen by 75%. That is not double, ergo you posted misleading information.




Sorry but that's not how a logical discussion works.

You made the claim, the onus is on you to prove it, something you have failed to do so far.

The evidence presented so far also clearly indicates that no huge influx has occurred at all.

I do also note that you are now attempting to move the goalposts; that an influx (i.e. increase) has occurred in the Muslim population of the west is not in discussion here. So the "huge or not" you are throwing in would appear to be a concession on your part that you are incorrect, as you did quite clearly and repeatedly insist it was huge.

The main tenant of your argument was based firmly on a number of pillars. That the Muslim population increase was:

• Huge
• from war affected countries
• to the 1st world / west
• in the last 15 years

To attempt to chance any of these reads to me as a concession that your original claim was either flawed or incorrect.



Your right you are new here, and when someone disagreed with you, you took immediate offence. Calling into question that persons origin, state of mind and background.

No one was rude or abuse to you (nor have they been), however you have been extremely offensive not just on a personal level, but to entire countries.

I politely asked you to apologise for inaccurate and offensive statements you made about myself and my background. These comments were incorrect and baseless, I have not whined about it at all. However very soon I will dispense with the pleasantries and simply remove you from the site. You may claim I have not right to do so, I differ in that regard and please feel free to test me on the matter if you wish.




What injustice is that exactly?

That we have the affront to disagree with you?

That we back that disagreement with evidence?

That your own evidence does not support your claim (that is a failing in your ability to read the data)?

That you receive warnings and infractions when you break the AUP?

If these are your injustices then I can promise you will receive little sympathy from the members here, and please stop implying that Famine and I are incapable of posting on our own or arguing a point on our own. Quite frankly to the established membership who know the two of us, it just makes you look foolish. As I have already said, take a look at our posting history before you make claims like this.


Scaff

You are a moderator not an irreproachable wealth's of knowledge as you are so desperately trying to portray behind those facades , your illustrious posting history/career means nothing to me if it is some claim to fame/status bask in it all you want (showing off your illustrious posting history/career is quite sad it just shows you are good at typing wow , it is a gaming forum for the love of god) as it mean's nothing when you face the real world you are just another person when you open that door as am I , no amount of your illustrious posting history/career or super status will make you feel what you know is missing

You still did claim your evidence to be U.S. census data which it is not it is a ARIS market research survey projection not even funded by the U.S. government but by a cultural foundation which you yourself know as it is written on the supposed evidence you provided period , answer that and solely that if you can and do not try to rely on Famines supposed evidence as it is you that I am discussing this with or will you constantly take turns of leaning on each other .

This is a dispute that is between me and Famine if you wish to consistently hold his hand it is your shame not mine , (why you jumped to his rescue when he was perfectly capable of doing it himself as he is a moderator also I do not know , the response was after all a reply to Famine ? (after his badgering of course) this is really getting boring if you cannot converse beyond your not U.S. census data and try to rely on insignificant technicalities then all you are getting is boring with all your petty claims of such an illustrious posting history/career relying on this and your super status history to pull you through when I think of who I am actually wasting my time conversing with it gets a little creepy especially someone desperately trying to save face on a gaming forum with of course his illustrious posting history/career and super status LMAO

Regards Paul

 

[Famine]

You are a moderator not an irreproachable wealth's of knowledge as you are so desperately trying to portray behind those facades , your illustrious posting history/career means nothing to me if it is some claim to fame/status bask in it all you want (showing off your illustrious posting history/career is quite sad it just shows you are good at typing wow , it is a gaming forum for the love of god) as it mean's nothing when you face the real world you are just another person when you open that door as am I , no amount of your illustrious posting history/career or super status will make you feel what you know is missing

Again, more irrelevances. Your claim still has no merit. Quit dodging.

You still did claim your evidence to be U.S. census data which it is not it is a ARIS market research survey projection not even funded by the U.S. government but by a cultural foundation which you yourself know as it is written on the supposed evidence you provided period , answer that and solely that if you can and do not try to rely on Famines supposed evidence as it is you that I am discussing this with or will you constantly take turns of leaning on each other .

My "supposed" evidence is exactly what you want - official governmental statistics.

The DHS statistics do not back you up.
The BBC you cited does not back you up.
The Islam in Australia piece does not back you up nor say what you claimed it did.
The data from Census.gov does not back you up and you then went on to cite it and it didn't say what you claimed it did.
Lastly, and by no means least, the Model UN. The Model UN!

Give. It. Up.

This is a dispute that is between me and Famine

Is it?

Looks like you posted a baseless claim in a public forum to me. Anyone is free to respond. Since your baseless claim is based on bigotry and easy to disprove, people who don't like bigots have responded.


Quite why you're so fascinated by men holding hands (more baseless claims) and "super status" escapes me. We just discuss the points, you want to ignore them and discuss the people. Wonder why...

 

[Sureboss]

Aw, bless.

Edit: That wasn't aimed at Famine, but I would like to hold his hands...

 

[Scaff]

You are a moderator not an irreproachable wealth's of knowledge as you are so desperately trying to portray behind those facades , your illustrious posting history/career means nothing to me if it is some claim to fame/status bask in it all you want (showing off your illustrious posting history/career is quite sad it just shows you are good at typing wow , it is a gaming forum for the love of god) as it mean's nothing when you face the real world you are just another person when you open that door as am I , no amount of your illustrious posting history/career or super status will make you feel what you know is missing

If this is just a gaming forum then how are we discussing population growth in the west? Oh that's right because its actually far more that just a gaming forum.

It was also you that opened this particular door, when you claimed that Famine and I were incapable of posting or debating without each others assistance. Our past posting history is directly relevant in regard to that point, as it clearly illustrates that we are more than capable of posting independently.

You still did claim your evidence to be U.S. census data which it is not it is a ARIS market research survey projection not even funded by the U.S. government but by a cultural foundation which you yourself know as it is written on the supposed evidence you provided period , answer that and solely that if you can and do not try to rely on Famines supposed evidence as it is you that I am discussing this with or will you constantly take turns of leaning on each other .

No I did not.

I stated that the information was provided by the US census, and it is. They present it as an 'abstract' contained on their website and as such endorsed by them.

That is pattern of results match every other piece of data present (by anyone) clearly indicates that it is both robust and valid.

Need I remind you that while you believe a piece of information provided by the US census to be invalid (that they did not produce it is an irrelevance - they provide it), you are quite happy to use information produced by 5 to 18 year old children!!!!!

What makes me chuckle is even the kids don't agree with you.

This is a dispute that is between me and Famine if you wish to consistently hold his hand it is your shame not mine , (why you jumped to his rescue when he was perfectly capable of doing it himself as he is a moderator also I do not know , the response was after all a reply to Famine ? (after his badgering of course) this is really getting boring if you cannot converse beyond your not U.S. census data and try to rely on insignificant technicalities then all you are getting is boring with all your petty claims of such an illustrious posting history/career relying on this and your super status history to pull you through when I think of who I am actually wasting my time conversing with it gets a little creepy especially someone desperately trying to save face on a gaming forum with of course his illustrious posting history/career and super status LMAO

Regards Paul

Oh I'm sorry when did you buy the site?

That's right you haven't, and until you do so you will not tell me or any other member which topic we can post in and which discussions we can and can't get involved in.

My status has never formed a part of this (only when you have chosen to drag it in with claims that we are picking on you).

I notice that you have now chosen to stop trying to prove you claim and instead engage in ad-hominem attacks. I have no need to 'save face' as quite frankly the only one unable to provide any basis for the claims they have made is you.

So we are still waiting for you to provide so basis for you claim that a huge influx on Muslims has occurred in the last 15 years, from the war affected ares of the globe to the west / first world.

You see this kind of bigoted nonsense is normally the preserve of the far-right and ultra-nationalists. Its often spouted by the BNP here in the UK, and they have failed to provide any proof for it when challenged either. A little like you they then resort to personally and generally attacks to try and distract as well. Now normally I would never compare someone's posting to the far-right, but combined with your choice of user name I am having to wonder and wonder out-loud about your motives for putting this claim forward.


Scaff

 

[Dotini]

I'm thinking Ron Paul would be mighty unhappy about what was happening in "his" thread right now. Somehow it's got hijacked down an unsavory bunny-trail, possibly by someone who's anti-Ron Paul. Maybe an anti/pro-immigration thread should be created to scoop this stuff up.

Back years ago, after the '59 Castro revolution in Cuba, after the US was kicked out of Vietnam in '75, and after the Shah was kicked out of Iran in '79, it seemed like there was a brief influx of US supporters from the losing sides of these conflicts. Maybe that has something to do with Muslim immigration today, and maybe doesn't.

 

[Scaff]

I'm thinking Ron Paul would be mighty unhappy about what was happening in "his" thread right now. Somehow it's got hijacked down an unsavory bunny-trail, possibly by someone who's anti-Ron Paul.

It would seem that is the case.

Back years ago, after the '59 Castro revolution in Cuba, after the US was kicked out of Vietnam in '75, and after the Shah was kicked our of Iran in '79, it seemed like there was a brief influx of US supporters from the losing sides of these conflicts. Maybe that has something to do with Muslim immigration tofay, and maybe doesn't.

Brief influx being the important part here and spot on. Any country in conflict or undergoing change will see people leaving it.

That many have (inaccurately) turned that into a mass exodus and used it to try and scare people is quite disturbing, particularly as it results in the kind of backlash that results in people trying to stop a not-mosque being built.


Scaff

 

[Ustasa]

Again, more irrelevances. Your claim still has no merit. Quit dodging.



My "supposed" evidence is exactly what you want - official governmental statistics.

The DHS statistics do not back you up.
The BBC you cited does not back you up.
The Islam in Australia piece does not back you up nor say what you claimed it did.
The data from Census.gov does not back you up and you then went on to cite it and it didn't say what you claimed it did.
Lastly, and by no means least, the Model UN. The Model UN!

Give. It. Up.



Is it?

Looks like you posted a baseless claim in a public forum to me. Anyone is free to respond. Since your baseless claim is based on bigotry and easy to disprove, people who don't like bigots have responded.


Quite why you're so fascinated by men holding hands (more baseless claims) and "super status" escapes me.

You have not shown one piece of evidence that says there has not been a Muslim migration to first world countries not one

It is funny how you call me a bigot but you are the one not wanting to allow a religion to practice their religious rights I think then that would make you not only a bigot but also a hypocrite , as for your last comment the fascination is all yours as you 're the one teaming up with a sidekick I am flying solo roger or does that escape you also

Regards Paul

 

[Scaff]

You have not shown one piece of evidence that says there has not been a Muslim migration to first world countries not one

Yes it does.

It is funny how you call me a bigot but you are the one not wanting to allow a religion to practice their religious rights I think then that would make you not only a bigot but also a hypocrite , as for your last comment the fascination is all yours as you 're the one teaming up with a sidekick I am flying solo roger or does that escape you also

Regards Paul

OK that's it with the insults and the nonsense.

You are now accusing a member of staff of religious bigotry, something they have quite clearly not done.

Your gone.


Scaff

 

[Famine]

You have not shown one piece of evidence that says there has not been a Muslim migration to first world countries not one

No, I've showed you several pieces of evidence that there has not been a "Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc" and demonstrated how every attempt by you to present evidence that there is has been easily disproven. That Muslims migrate at all is not in question. That they do so en masse in response to wars over the last 15 years remains unproven.

You still need to back up your claim. You have yet to succeed

It is funny how you call me a bigot but you are the one not wanting to allow a religion to practice their religious rights I think then that would make you not only a bigot but also a hypocrite

Since I'm not the one trying to stop a religion from practicing, it doesn't.

But thanks for playing! 👍

as for your last comment the fascination is all yours as you 're the one teaming up with a sidekick I am flying solo roger or does that escape you also

You keep bringing up the fact that both Scaff and I - and other members, which you pass over - disagree with your false assertion that there has been a "Huge influx (immigration) of Muslims from all war effected countries in past 15 or so years immigrating to countries such as the U.S. , Canada , Australia , U.K. (first world countries) etc etc" and have presented data to counter it. We don't. The fascination remains yours.

You keep bringing up the fact that both Scaff and I have "super status" (whatever that is). We don't. The fascination remains yours.

We want to discuss the points - even the faked ones. You want to discuss the individuals instead. One can only speculate on why this is.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, that was all fun.

Edit: I have done some research. and there are some Japanese restaurants near Pearl Harbor, where is the outrage over that?

Hawaii is actually a very popular Japanese wedding and honeymoon spot. While I was at Pearl Harbor my dad's girlfriend (and fairly ignorant country woman) leaned over to my wife and said that she couldn't believe those Japanese people would come over here on vacation after they did that. I asked her if she's been to an Indian casino in response (I knew she had).

Can't really trust Wiki but I found this sub section in there. I was talking to my co worker about this and she states that Mosques are built on conquered land. I will have to do some more research to see if that is true or not.

Odd. I wonder how that one got in Louisville, KY. Unless bought = conquered.

Two of those, I don't think they've been really active for many decades. They are not feared, they are laughing stocks. Other one, I have never heard of it. Another, I don't think they committed any atrocities.

The two in-actives: KKK and Nazis? I witnessed the KKK march on campus when I was in college. They are still active some in the south. They aren't as big as they were, and they don't, to my knowledge, hang people in public anymore. But they are active. While Nazis as an official government entity no longer exist there are still those that believe in the dream of an Aryan nation. Heck, Ron Paul himself is often criticized because neo-Nazi groups will say they officially support him due to his political belief that free speech is free speech, no matter who you are.

Never heard of Hutaree? They were the group that was recently arrested for plotting to kill multiple police officers in order to spark off a battle between militias and the government so the next anti-government uprising could begin and after a revolution America could become the country they envision.

And You don't believe any anti-abortion people committed atrocities? Some extreme members have bombed clinics and murdered doctors.


Of course, if we really wanted to get into the big stuff we could discuss crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, etc. Christianity has moved beyond the fire and brimstone stuff, but some still believe it and think the only way to make sure the world is saved is to attack those that they disagree with. And that is why they are called extremists.




But as for this building itself, I see no problem with it. On the exact spot they are building an office building to have its offices leased out for profit. I can also see how that might be seen as offensive by someone. But I would disagree with them too.

I am not sure what the protesters hope to achieve. There is zero legal bearing for stopping this building from existing.

 

[niky]

Hawaii is actually a very popular Japanese wedding and honeymoon spot. While I was at Pearl Harbor my dad's girlfriend (and fairly ignorant country woman) leaned over to my wife and said that she couldn't believe those Japanese people would come over here on vacation after they did that. I asked her if she's been to an Indian casino in response (I knew she had).

Actually... there have been Japanese in Hawaii (and on the Pacific seaboard of the US) long before Pearl Harbor. I'm a fourth-generation (on one side) Japanese immigrant from the Pacific Northwest. But from what I know, a huge number of the Japanese immigrants from my great grand-parents time moved to Hawaii.

Interesting... till this topic came up, I didn't actually know that the backlash against Japanese immigrants after Pearl Harbor (which saw my grandmother sent to a concentration camp for the duration of the war) was not as strong in Hawaii as it was on the mainland... apparently because a number of Japanese-Americans were also killed in the bombings.

The government propaganda demonizing the Japanese people at the time is eerily similar to the situation with Islam now... and let's not forget... Islamic radicalism, over the years, has killed more Muslims than Americans... many more.

 

[astrosdude91]

I seem to be the only one in my family who supports the community center, which makes me feel like the black sheep sometimes. I usually hear from them the usual arguments like how they shouldn't build it out of respect, and that it may become a terrorist cell, which is utterly rediculous.

 

[Northstar]

and that it may become a terrorist cell, which is utterly rediculous.

This is the argument I don't understand, surely if they were going to make a "terrorist cell" they would be doing it in a place where they won't get constant attention and have their finances constantly monitored by the IRS like they do with non-profits. Another part I don't get is that if they are going to have a terrorist cell here(assuming there isn't one, but there probably is), not building the mosque isn't going to stop it, they will simply move it somewhere else, like the middle of nowhere where nobody will notice(Unlike the middle of NYC where everyone will).

Also, that whole "Japanese in Hawaii" thing was a crappy attempt at satire, I wasn't being serious.

 

[nk4e]

Reading from Time.com:

We would betray our values ... if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. To cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG,
New York City mayor, speaking in favor of building an Islamic center and mosque near Ground Zero

Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate.
SARAH PALIN,
tweeting her disapproval of a proposed plan to build an Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero in New York City

Wasn't Hutaree the Christian extremists; who attacked a funeral of a sheriff?

 

[Northstar]

I am so glad we didn't put that nutjob in the White House. Really, you can't make up a word than tell someone to do it.

Now I'm off to tell someone to Gierbhorf or else I'll strip their rights.

Also, Hutaree never did anything I'm aware of, they just did a lot of planning(conspiracy if you will).

 

[nk4e]

The United States Attorney's Office stated that the Hutaree allegedly planned "to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral". [19] [20] The press release further stated that nine had been indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence. The indictment said that the Hutaree planned to attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession for the officer(s) they planned to kill, using improvised explosive devices of the Explosively formed penetrator variety, thus constituting the formal, Federal statutory definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction. [20]

Well, your right.

 

[a6m5]

The two in-actives: KKK and Nazis? I witnessed the KKK march on campus when I was in college. They are still active some in the south. They aren't as big as they were, and they don't, to my knowledge, hang people in public anymore. But they are active. While Nazis as an official government entity no longer exist there are still those that believe in the dream of an Aryan nation. Heck, Ron Paul himself is often criticized because neo-Nazi groups will say they officially support him due to his political belief that free speech is free speech, no matter who you are.

Never heard of Hutaree? They were the group that was recently arrested for plotting to kill multiple police officers in order to spark off a battle between militias and the government so the next anti-government uprising could begin and after a revolution America could become the country they envision.

And You don't believe any anti-abortion people committed atrocities? Some extreme members have bombed clinics and murdered doctors.


Of course, if we really wanted to get into the big stuff we could discuss crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, etc. Christianity has moved beyond the fire and brimstone stuff, but some still believe it and think the only way to make sure the world is saved is to attack those that they disagree with. And that is why they are called extremists.

FK, this was a case of things I mentioned being taken out of context. Thanks for all the typing, but I left the details iffy in that reply post for a reason. Just like now, I was being invited into a discussion that I never started, or ever existed.

I merely mentioned a comment Dennis Miller made, saying that Muslim leaders can do more to hunt down terrorists, or something like that. Then I think it was Justin who went "but every religion has extremists", (again)in reference to religious leaders helping fight terrorism, so I asked which other religions he was referring to? That's when I got fed KKKs & Nazis. Yeah, I hope at least you can understand that I'm not trying to say there weren't bad people in the history books. It's just that it wasn't really in regards to what I posted, or what Dennis Miller was talking about. It's apparently a case where I didn't make myself clear.

 

[niky]

Also, that whole "Japanese in Hawaii" thing was a crappy attempt at satire, I wasn't being serious.

Actually... it's an interesting issue... because there was a huge backlash against Japanese during the war and in the years following the war. My mother and her siblings were constantly harrassed in the fifties... because even though they were only half-Japanese, they were noticeably so (the younger ones had it easier... they had more Caucasian eyes).

Until this point, I hadn't realized how different the sentiment was in Hawaii... which was more poly-ethnic than the rest of the west coast. You would think that there would be some sort of anti-Japanese sentiment there, since they were the only US state actually attacked by the Japanese...

 

[nk4e]

Actually... it's an interesting issue... because there was a huge backlash against Japanese during the war and in the years following the war. My mother and her siblings were constantly harrassed in the fifties... because even though they were only half-Japanese, they were noticeably so (the younger ones had it easier... they had more Caucasian eyes).

Until this point, I hadn't realized how different the sentiment was in Hawaii... which was more poly-ethnic than the rest of the west coast. You would think that there would be some sort of anti-Japanese sentiment there, since they were the only US state actually attacked by the Japanese...

I also think that the Filipino Community was actually sent to the Camps that was based in California because they looked like they are from Japanese decent.