Ron Paul has it right about the mosque debate

[niky]

I also think that the Filipino Community was actually sent to the Camps that was based in California because they looked like they are from Japanese decent.

Never heard of it... native Filipinos and Malays don't look enough like Japanese. Maybe some of those with some Chinese blood would, but I think it would have been publicized more.

 

[FoolKiller]

Also, that whole "Japanese in Hawaii" thing was a crappy attempt at satire, I wasn't being serious.

I get that. I just wanted to point out that there are people who really do think like that, and I am guessing those people account for some of the ones that find this center to be some form of insult.

FK, this was a case of things I mentioned being taken out of context. Thanks for all the typing, but I left the details iffy in that reply post for a reason. Just like now, I was being invited into a discussion that I never started, or ever existed.

I know and I came in days after it had passed, but I just wanted to point out that there are extremists in all groups. I feel it is an important point that does need to be made, not for you, but for the Sarah Palins of the world.
They can't make the accusations that Islam is a religion that promotes violence without recognizing that their religion likely has its own few set of extremist nutcases.

I merely mentioned a comment Dennis Miller made, saying that Muslim leaders can do more to hunt down terrorists, or something like that.

I actually do want to address this though. I believe it was something along the lines of Islamic leaders should speak out against these acts of terrorism. I think it is a a bad point and Dennis Miller knows it. In all honesty, it is a fairly easy way to get people riled up against an individual who has done nothing wrong. It is the equivalent of pointing at a small town preacher and saying that he hasn't spoken out against an abortion clinic bomber. It is planting a seed of doubt in the minds of outside observers. The truth is that individual clerics and imams do not need to all speak out against these things publicly to be opposed to them, just as any preacher or priest does not need to mention activist activities into their sermons. I know at the church I attend with my wife the priest only mentions politics when he is directed to by the diocese. I do not know his individual personal opinions on anything of that nature.

To expect each temple to have a separate statement speaking out against these acts is a double standard as we would not expect every Christian church to do the same thing. We do see larger community-wide Islamic groups have a spokesperson speak out against these acts, which would be the equivalent of a diocese, or Catholic church as a whole, spokesperson speaking out against similar activity done in the name of Christianity. I can almost guarantee you Dennis Miller would accept that as enough.

Interesting... till this topic came up, I didn't actually know that the backlash against Japanese immigrants after Pearl Harbor (which saw my grandmother sent to a concentration camp for the duration of the war) was not as strong in Hawaii as it was on the mainland... apparently because a number of Japanese-Americans were also killed in the bombings.

I doubt there is much backlash. In my anecdote it was just an ignorant woman "offended" that Japanese would visit Pearl Harbor.

That said, some in the WWII generation still hold some resentment. I know my friend's grandfather cannot bring himself to buy a Japanese car. Clearly that is not common in the US, but most of us today can't tell stories of watching friends killed by Japanese soldiers. Short of the occasional idiotic, xenophobic racism I have not heard any other negative things about the Japanese from non WWII generations.

And maybe that is the real key to this controversy. Even though it is 10 years later it was the only American soil attack by a foreign enemy any of us have seen. For many that is still a touchy subject and with a large lack of understanding of Muslim culture in this country many cannot separate the religion from the individuals. If this center were being built in another decade a new generation would be in charge than there was when 9/11 happened. The complaints would then just be coming from the old people that can't abide by "those people" after what they witnessed.

 

[TheCracker]

That said, some in the WWII generation still hold some resentment. I know my friend's grandfather cannot bring himself to buy a Japanese car. Clearly that is not common in the US, but most of us today can't tell stories of watching friends killed by Japanese soldiers. Short of the occasional idiotic, xenophobic racism I have not heard any other negative things about the Japanese from non WWII generations.

My Grandfather was the same. He'd never buy a Japanese car or any other Japanese made product for that matter. Being an Englishman in England his WWII took place in the skies over Germany, never venturing anywhere near Japan or the Pacific theatre. Many of his friends and colleagues were shot down and killed or captured, yet he held no bones with the Germans at all. The Japanese on the other hand were the devil's spawn as far as he was concerned. A strange and irrational case of xenophobia from a highly intelligent and well read individual for sure.

 

[astrosdude91]

That said, some in the WWII generation still hold some resentment. I know my friend's grandfather cannot bring himself to buy a Japanese car. Clearly that is not common in the US, but most of us today can't tell stories of watching friends killed by Japanese soldiers. Short of the occasional idiotic, xenophobic racism I have not heard any other negative things about the Japanese from non WWII generations.

My friend has some resentment towards the Japanese, or atleast he did. When I first met him back in high school, he did not like the Japanese. He is a very patriotic person. He took Pearl Harbor very personally, even though it happened nearly 70 years ago! He chose XBox over a Playstation because the Playstation is "Japanese crap." He went around bosting the expression "slap the Japanese," and took pride in it. It was rather disgusting! But he was otherwise a good person, it's just the odd animosity towards the Japanese that made me want to stop being his friend. But he's grown up now and obtained a more wordly view. He admit's now that he was an ignorant idiot back then, and now we're the best of friends. And he drives a Japanese car!

 

[a6m5]

I know and I came in days after it had passed, but I just wanted to point out that there are extremists in all groups. I feel it is an important point that does need to be made, not for you, but for the Sarah Palins of the world.
They can't make the accusations that Islam is a religion that promotes violence without recognizing that their religion likely has its own few set of extremist nutcases.


I actually do want to address this though. I believe it was something along the lines of Islamic leaders should speak out against these acts of terrorism. I think it is a a bad point and Dennis Miller knows it. In all honesty, it is a fairly easy way to get people riled up against an individual who has done nothing wrong. It is the equivalent of pointing at a small town preacher and saying that he hasn't spoken out against an abortion clinic bomber. It is planting a seed of doubt in the minds of outside observers. The truth is that individual clerics and imams do not need to all speak out against these things publicly to be opposed to them, just as any preacher or priest does not need to mention activist activities into their sermons. I know at the church I attend with my wife the priest only mentions politics when he is directed to by the diocese. I do not know his individual personal opinions on anything of that nature.

I agree, and you are right about him seeding doubt. But that's not all he did there. He also reminds, not necessarily us, but people how these terrorists are immersed in Muslim community, operating inside mosques(not necessarily in the U.S.), etc. I realize how bigoted I sounded there, and while it may not be something people need to act on, they do need to be aware of it. I hope I'm making sense. And I totally get the clinic bomber example, but Muslim terrorists are an actually army. I think their situation is quite unique.

My Grandfather was the same. He'd never buy a Japanese car or any other Japanese made product for that matter. Being an Englishman in England his WWII took place in the skies over Germany, never venturing anywhere near Japan or the Pacific theatre. Many of his friends and colleagues were shot down and killed or captured, yet he held no bones with the Germans at all. The Japanese on the other hand were the devil's spawn as far as he was concerned. A strange and irrational case of xenophobia from a highly intelligent and well read individual for sure.

It doesn't really bother me, as racism was the norm, back when. Living in the States, I still see some racism, but so much less than when I arrived here from Japan in 1987. And it is usually the older folks.

Of course, the racism works both ways. Especially now days.

 

[TouringDevotee]

I agree, and you are right about him seeding doubt. But that's not all he did there. He also reminds, not necessarily us, but people how these terrorists are immersed in Muslim community, operating inside mosques(not necessarily in the U.S.), etc. I realize how bigoted I sounded there, and while it may not be something people need to act on, they do need to be aware of it. I hope I'm making sense. And I totally get the clinic bomber example, but Muslim terrorists are an actually army. I think their situation is quite unique.

It doesn't really bother me, as racism was the norm, back when. Living in the States, I still see some racism, but so much less than when I arrived here from Japan in 1987. And it is usually the older folks.

Of course, the racism works both ways. Especially now days.

So terrorists are immersed in the Muslim community and there is a Muslim terrorist army... How many Muslims do you know? How many mosques have you visited? People should be aware of a Muslim terrorist army, but not necessarily act on this information???

What exactly are your sources and have you actually checked them for validity, because what you've stated sounds like it was informed by demagoguery.

I'm not saying that you are a horrible person, but those are some very nauseating beliefs that you hold about over 1.5 billion people.

 

[FoolKiller]

I agree, and you are right about him seeding doubt. But that's not all he did there. He also reminds, not necessarily us, but people how these terrorists are immersed in Muslim community, operating inside mosques(not necessarily in the U.S.), etc. I realize how bigoted I sounded there, and while it may not be something people need to act on, they do need to be aware of it.

And when Ted Bundy was caught his neighbors thought he was a great guy. People with sociopathic behaviors often blend in to their surroundings, attending the church of their chosen faith, going to work, having neighborhood cookouts, and so on. There is nothing unique about Muslim extremists with terroristic intentions attending a mosque prayer service regularly that differentiates them from any other type of sociopath that regularly attends church. Even if they are using the mosque in order to meet and organize it doesn't mean anything for everyone else there. I don't know what all the committees and prayer groups at the church I attend do either. I don't even know when they meet.

I hope I'm making sense. And I totally get the clinic bomber example, but Muslim terrorists are an actually army. I think their situation is quite unique.

This changes nothing. You cannot demand more of one religious leader because an organized group is using the religion he practices as a cover for extremist activities.

I'm just not buying Dennis Miller's reasoning. I may be misunderstanding it because I didn't directly hear what he said, but as you describe it nothing he is saying changes for any group.

 

[a6m5]

So terrorists are immersed in the Muslim community and there is a Muslim terrorist army... How many Muslims do you know? How many mosques have you visited? People should be aware of a Muslim terrorist army, but not necessarily act on this information???

What exactly are your sources and have you actually checked them for validity, because what you've stated sounds like it was informed by demagoguery.

I'm not saying that you are a horrible person, but those are some very nauseating beliefs that you hold about over 1.5 billion people.

I am not holding anything against Islams, or Muslims. It's not my opinion, it's the truth!

Listen, I understand that in the opinions forum, if I make a claim, it is my responsibility to back up that claim. So I will go spend my time to find something on the net that will back up what I'm saying. But mosques being used by terrorist, that's been a fairly common knowledge even before the 9/11. God, next time you guys see me in the opinion forum, kick me out. I don't know how Famine or Scaff find the energy to keep going.

And when Ted Bundy was caught his neighbors thought he was a great guy. People with sociopathic behaviors often blend in to their surroundings, attending the church of their chosen faith, going to work, having neighborhood cookouts, and so on. There is nothing unique about Muslim extremists with terroristic intentions attending a mosque prayer service regularly that differentiates them from any other type of sociopath that regularly attends church. Even if they are using the mosque in order to meet and organize it doesn't mean anything for everyone else there. I don't know what all the committees and prayer groups at the church I attend do either. I don't even know when they meet.


This changes nothing. You cannot demand more of one religious leader because an organized group is using the religion he practices as a cover for extremist activities.

I'm just not buying Dennis Miller's reasoning. I may be misunderstanding it because I didn't directly hear what he said, but as you describe it nothing he is saying changes for any group.

You are looking at all this from the personal level. There is nothing personal about this. What if CIA commonly used certain churches in the Middle East to meet, or all their personnel belonging to them?

Sensitive subject, but I think people also need to be informed.

 

[Dotini]

For those interested in news and research of Islamic affairs, I recommend the respected professor Juan Cole.
http://www.juancole.com/

 

[FoolKiller]

You are looking at all this from the personal level. There is nothing personal about this.

Not sure what I said that gave you that idea. There is nothing about this that is personal to me, I'm just questioning the double standard being used here.

What if CIA commonly used certain churches in the Middle East to meet, or all their personnel belonging to them?

If they just met at that church I am going to guess the priest is not aware, thus he should not be expected to act in anyway as if he is. If the whole church is CIA members then...its not a real church. In that case the priest/pastor is likely fake and a member of the CIA as well, and I'll guess that he won't be talking about knowing he has a congregation full of spies.

Plus, anyone that watches TV and movies knows that the mafia uses churches to meet. And drug lords use Spanish missions.

Sensitive subject, but I think people also need to be informed.

OK. I am now informed that an extremist group primarily composed of people from a similar ethnic background will use common gathering places used by people of that same ethnic background for meeting in order to hide that activity. It is why militant groups meet in trailers in the woods until they gather enough money to build a compound made of extremely combustible materials. Now what? (This is a snarky joke, not me acting offended)

See, it's not exactly news and it is rather irrelevant unless you are a talking head on TV discussing the controversial building of one of these said gathering places.

 

[Scaff]

And I totally get the clinic bomber example, but Muslim terrorists are an actually army. I think their situation is quite unique.

Not really. The Provisional IRA and now the Real IRA both count as armies with a formal military structure.

They are also deeply ingrained in the religious element of their respective terror campaigns and effectively use a feeling of persecution and alienation of a minority religious community to both hide within and recruit from

The following paper is an excellent study of this and how lesson can (and should) be learnt from the IRA is effectively dealing with Islamic terrorism.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA430547

So terrorists are immersed in the Muslim community and there is a Muslim terrorist army... How many Muslims do you know? How many mosques have you visited? People should be aware of a Muslim terrorist army, but not necessarily act on this information???

What exactly are your sources and have you actually checked them for validity, because what you've stated sounds like it was informed by demagoguery.

I'm not saying that you are a horrible person, but those are some very nauseating beliefs that you hold about over 1.5 billion people.

Sorry but I have to agree with his point.

One the Islamic extremists do function using a paramilitary structure and act very much as an army would do, and two the do operate well inside the Islamic community, particularly in countries were Muslims are a minority.

A big difference exists between understanding this as a basic concept and applying it to all Muslims.

A world of difference exists between saying all Islamic terrorists are Muslim (they are), and saying that all Muslims are Islamic terrorists (they clearly are not).

In the same vein my wife is not a member of the IRA just because she is Catholic, however it is quite legitimate to says that all IRA members are Catholic (because they almost without exception are).

Have a read of the paper I have posted above as it covers the very area in great detail.

Oh and just for the rtecord and to save you asking. I know a lot of Muslims, work with a few, have a few as friends, and my father (and by association myself) spent over 15 years working and traveling around the Middle
East.

This changes nothing. You cannot demand more of one religious leader because an organized group is using the religion he practices as a cover for extremist activities.

Quite right, and to do so is incredibly counter productive, as its likely to lead to a feeling of persecution and greater alienation for the religion / community involved. Which it turn plays right into the hands of the terrorists themselves and actually drives up recruitment rates.


That's the horrible irony of this entire topic, by actually protesting about a community center designed to improve interfaith understanding all people are actually likely to do is further the aims and causes of the terrorists themselves. Increasing recruitment and the likelihood of further attacks.





Regards

Scaff

 

[a6m5]

but not necessarily act on this information???

Perhaps I dramatized without meaning to. But I think you are taking my reply to FK out of context, too.

What exactly are your sources and have you actually checked them for validity, because what you've stated sounds like it was informed by demagoguery.

OK, I don't even want to know how long I spent on google, I suck at it.

AGAIN, I'm not a hater, and I have no ill-intention to Muslims. More like the opposite, really. The people, the religion I find quite interesting.

The links I selected, they illustrate how mosques are used, involved. But please know, I made sure not to paint a picture that they are in fact like some sort of army base of operation for Al Qaeda.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Exec.htm

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Ch2.pdf

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...es/Vol49no2/Terror_Networks_Book_Review_9.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#Command_structure

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/26/AR2008022603267_pf.html

They are big articles or reports, so it might be easier to just highlight or search for words "mosque" using a toolbar if you have it. If you can't find the relevance, let me know. I can highlight them, send it to you via private message.

Not sure what I said that gave you that idea. There is nothing about this that is personal to me, I'm just questioning the double standard being used here.

About comparing to your church, more individual level of view, that's what I was referring to. Also on the double standard you mention, that's the thing, I don't believe in this "standard". It is a unique situation in my view.

If they just met at that church I am going to guess the priest is not aware, thus he should not be expected to act in anyway as if he is. If the whole church is CIA members then...its not a real church. In that case the priest/pastor is likely fake and a member of the CIA as well, and I'll guess that he won't be talking about knowing he has a congregation full of spies.

Plus, anyone that watches TV and movies knows that the mafia uses churches to meet. And drug lords use Spanish missions.

I could be wrong, but I feel like I'm being treated like the one who is ignorant on the subject? We keep bringing up churches, but in reality, they are much, much more than a church to the Muslim people. I typed up this long post, but I deleted it as again, as I'm being dragged into a discussion that I never started, or wanting to be part of.

OK. I am now informed that an extremist group primarily composed of people from a similar ethnic background will use common gathering places used by people of that same ethnic background for meeting in order to hide that activity. It is why militant groups meet in trailers in the woods until they gather enough money to build a compound made of extremely combustible materials. Now what? (This is a snarky joke, not me acting offended)

See, it's not exactly news and it is rather irrelevant unless you are a talking head on TV discussing the controversial building of one of these said gathering places.

You are right, but did you just not read the post by TouringDevotee? Just above your first post? Not exactly news, but obviously, not everybody's aware.

AGAIN, I'm all for good discussion, of substance. We are talking about nothing here FK, just spinning tires.

A big difference exists between understanding this as a basic concept and applying it to all Muslims.

This I think is where I'm misunderstood. I'm merely pointing out some rather politically incorrect facts, but I'm coming across as someone who has something against Muslims, or Islam. I have zero, absolutely nothing against the people or their religion. Terrorists, I hate their guts, but I would never confuse the two.

Also, dead-on on the IRA comparison. 👍

 

[niky]

I doubt there is much backlash. In my anecdote it was just an ignorant woman "offended" that Japanese would visit Pearl Harbor.

I was talking about the WWII generation you mentioned. Feelings were still strong back in the 50's... but that has obviously abated somewhat now.

If this center were being built in another decade a new generation would be in charge than there was when 9/11 happened. The complaints would then just be coming from the old people that can't abide by "those people" after what they witnessed.

Likely. 9/11 was the Titanic/Munich Olympics/Burning of the Temple of Jerusalem of our time... and a lot of people were profoundly affected by it (me amongst them), but it's harder for people with little concept of foreign culture to put it into context than it is for those of us who have experience and dealings with the Muslim community.

 

[TouringDevotee]

Perhaps I dramatized without meaning to. But I think you are taking my reply to FK out of context, too.

OK, I don't even want to know how long I spent on google, I suck at it.

AGAIN, I'm not a hater, and I have no ill-intention to Muslims. More like the opposite, really. The people, the religion I find quite interesting.

The links I selected, they illustrate how mosques are used, involved. But please know, I made sure not to paint a picture that they are in fact like some sort of army base of operation for Al Qaeda.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Exec.htm

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Ch2.pdf

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...es/Vol49no2/Terror_Networks_Book_Review_9.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#Command_structure

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/26/AR2008022603267_pf.html

They are big articles or reports, so it might be easier to just highlight or search for words "mosque" using a toolbar if you have it. If you can't find the relevance, let me know. I can highlight them, send it to you via private message.

About comparing to your church, more individual level of view, that's what I was referring to. Also on the double standard you mention, that's the thing, I don't believe in this "standard". It is a unique situation in my view.

I could be wrong, but I feel like I'm being treated like the one who is ignorant on the subject? We keep bringing up churches, but in reality, they are much, much more than a church to the Muslim people. I typed up this long post, but I deleted it as again, as I'm being dragged into a discussion that I never started, or wanting to be part of.

You are right, but did you just not read the post by TouringDevotee? Just above your first post? Not exactly news, but obviously, not everybody's aware.

AGAIN, I'm all for good discussion, of substance. We are talking about nothing here FK, just spinning tires.

This I think is where I'm misunderstood. I'm merely pointing out some rather politically incorrect facts, but I'm coming across as someone who has something against Muslims, or Islam. I have zero, absolutely nothing against the people or their religion. Terrorists, I hate their guts, but I would never confuse the two.

Also, dead-on on the IRA comparison. 👍

I offer you an apology. Unfortunately (for you and me) I went over and replied to your post while relaxing after a jarring bang to the head. I read your post as something along the lines of "we have to watch all the mosques, as they are breeding grounds for the Islamic terrorist army."

I know of most of the information provided in your links, and thank you for reminding me that I wanted to purchase Marc Sagemans' books.

I would only really take issue with the portion about an Islamic terrorist army, as it is a rather vague idea, more boogeyman like than representing an actual military force. I don't think they could find enough people for their cause. Even Sageman speaks of these people feeling not only marginalized by their host countries, but also the perceived lax Islamic ideals of their family. Sageman also speaks of them being people who could not be very violent on their own, but commit to incredible violence as part of the group.

Some might see this as an oddity, due to the Islamic facade providing an exotic cover, but we watched it all happed, first hand, with the American Neo-Cons (often referred to as the chicken hawks) and the destruction and massive loss of life that their ideals wrought on Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA430547

Scaff, I appreciate the pdf link that you posted and I'm reviewing it little by little. The one issue I am finding a bit quirky is that the document contains no noticeable information pertaining to how it developed its narrative or came to its conclusions with supporting references to other articles, reports, or studies, (whether academic, governmental or other) etc.

Now if this headache would just go away so that I can get some shuteye.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, I appreciate the pdf link that you posted and I'm reviewing it little by little. The one issue I am finding a bit quirky is that the document contains no noticeable information pertaining to how it developed its narrative or came to its conclusions with supporting references to other articles, reports, or studies, (whether academic, governmental or other) etc.

Now if this headache would just go away so that I can get some shuteye.

That's because its actually contained in a separate supporting document, which in itself is 138 pages in length. I may has a link to it still if you need it but its not exactly a thrilling read.




Scaff

 

[TouringDevotee]

That's because its actually contained in a separate supporting document, which in itself is 138 pages in length. I may has a link to it still if you need it but its not exactly a thrilling read.




Scaff

Thanks, I'd like to get my hands on it. Footnotes and references not thrilling? I consider them to be academic foreplay.

 

[FoolKiller]

About comparing to your church, more individual level of view, that's what I was referring to. Also on the double standard you mention, that's the thing, I don't believe in this "standard". It is a unique situation in my view.

I merely used my personal experience as an example to point out the double standard. I could have used any example. If I understand what you are saying that Dennis Miller said, he is questioning why the peaceful leaders of these mosques aren't doing more to speak out against and prevent the extremists from meeting in their mosques. But the point I am trying to make is that we don't expect every individual church leader to do the same thing. Whenever the Catholic church does something people don't like we tend to let it be with a statement from The Vatican or the diocese that is directly involved. We do not question the motivations of every priest that doesn't make a public statement. Similarly, we don't demand that the priests or other church leaders be sitting in on every single meeting organized through their parish to make sure that no other improper activities are done by people that attend that church.

Unless you believe that you can expect a cleric at a mosque to know the intentions of all the attendees, monitor their activities, and then do something if he discovers extremists making plans you cannot believe his role is unique to that of a leader in any other religious faith, no matter how unique the intentions and actions of people that attend the mosque.

I could be wrong, but I feel like I'm being treated like the one who is ignorant on the subject? We keep bringing up churches, but in reality, they are much, much more than a church to the Muslim people.

To be honest, this community center thing does sound a lot like the mega-churches we get around here, complete with weight gyms, basketball courts, bowling alleys, and sometimes even swimming pools. Oh, and I forgot an arena style sanctuary with a separate chapel just for weddings and funerals.

AGAIN, I'm all for good discussion, of substance. We are talking about nothing here FK, just spinning tires.

My issue is with Dennis Miller's statements, which I believe only have relevance in the fact that he wants to make his audience question approving of this Muslim center by making blanket statements that create a double standard.

This I think is where I'm misunderstood. I'm merely pointing out some rather politically incorrect facts, but I'm coming across as someone who has something against Muslims, or Islam. I have zero, absolutely nothing against the people or their religion. Terrorists, I hate their guts, but I would never confuse the two.

I haven't questioned your facts. The actions you have described do take place in some places. I do question the follow-up thought that further action is required by the leaders of these mosques and community centers when they are unaware that these actions are taking place specifically in their mosque or community center.

 

[a6m5]

I offer you an apology. Unfortunately (for you and me) I went over and replied to your post while relaxing after a jarring bang to the head. I read your post as something along the lines of "we have to watch all the mosques, as they are breeding grounds for the Islamic terrorist army."

I know of most of the information provided in your links, and thank you for reminding me that I wanted to purchase Marc Sagemans' books.

I would only really take issue with the portion about an Islamic terrorist army, as it is a rather vague idea, more boogeyman like than representing an actual military force. I don't think they could find enough people for their cause. Even Sageman speaks of these people feeling not only marginalized by their host countries, but also the perceived lax Islamic ideals of their family. Sageman also speaks of them being people who could not be very violent on their own, but commit to incredible violence as part of the group.

Some might see this as an oddity, due to the Islamic facade providing an exotic cover, but we watched it all happed, first hand, with the American Neo-Cons (often referred to as the chicken hawks) and the destruction and massive loss of life that their ideals wrought on Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm not really sure where we are at on this, but I know I owe you an apology for the cranky, whiny tone of my post. What can I say, I am a crybaby.

On watching mosques, I don't know what to tell you, without a doubt, they already watch plenty.

On the "army" comment, since many terrorist groups are large enough to make up a small army, I didn't think it was that far fetched. But clearly, it was an exaggeration on my part.

I merely used my personal experience as an example to point out the double standard. I could have used any example. If I understand what you are saying that Dennis Miller said, he is questioning why the peaceful leaders of these mosques aren't doing more to speak out against and prevent the extremists from meeting in their mosques. But the point I am trying to make is that we don't expect every individual church leader to do the same thing. Whenever the Catholic church does something people don't like we tend to let it be with a statement from The Vatican or the diocese that is directly involved. We do not question the motivations of every priest that doesn't make a public statement. Similarly, we don't demand that the priests or other church leaders be sitting in on every single meeting organized through their parish to make sure that no other improper activities are done by people that attend that church.

Unless you believe that you can expect a cleric at a mosque to know the intentions of all the attendees, monitor their activities, and then do something if he discovers extremists making plans you cannot believe his role is unique to that of a leader in any other religious faith, no matter how unique the intentions and actions of people that attend the mosque.

I am guilty of bringing it up, but again, it's not my argument so I can't really back it up as to what can be done about it, or how far they should go should they do take action. It was an interesting angle, I am very sorry if I gave you an impression that I was suggesting that this is the next step Obama should take on War on Terrorism, or anything like that.

I think our discussion has moved little more towards the similarities between churches & mosques. You have no problem comparing the two, I think they are complete apples & oranges. Again, complete waste of time. Last thing I'd want to do is waste your time discussing irrelevant technicality within the actual discussion.

To be honest, this community center thing does sound a lot like the mega-churches we get around here, complete with weight gyms, basketball courts, bowling alleys, and sometimes even swimming pools. Oh, and I forgot an arena style sanctuary with a separate chapel just for weddings and funerals.

Uhhh, yeah. We'll continue moving right along.

My issue is with Dennis Miller's statements, which I believe only have relevance in the fact that he wants to make his audience question approving of this Muslim center by making blanket statements that create a double standard.

I am embarrassed to say, but I had no idea that he was right wing until that interview, what, last week? Right or Left, of course they mean to persuade just about every time they open their mouths. I will just say that when he mentioned about more cooperation, I think they were already past the topic of the NYC community center(w/mosque in it).

Seriously, I remember Dennis Miller from SNL, man. I had no idea.

I haven't questioned your facts. The actions you have described do take place in some places. I do question the follow-up thought that further action is required by the leaders of these mosques and community centers when they are unaware that these actions are taking place specifically in their mosque or community center.

When have I required them of anything? Or are you talking about the point I made to Omnis about how they'd be much better at hunting down terrorist than U.S. agencies would be, which obviously was completely hypothetical?

 

[FoolKiller]

I am guilty of bringing it up, but again, it's not my argument so I can't really back it up as to what can be done about it, or how far they should go should they do take action. It was an interesting angle, I am very sorry if I gave you an impression that I was suggesting that this is the next step Obama should take on War on Terrorism, or anything like that.

I was under the impression that you agreed with his statement, which I disagree with. I explained why I disagreed and was questioning why you agree with it. But if you don't agree with it, and merely think it is interesting as in it is a topic of possible discussion then that is also what we are doing, but I was questioning you as if I believed you were of the same opinion as Miller.

 

[a6m5]

I was under the impression that you agreed with his statement, which I disagree with. I explained why I disagreed and was questioning why you agree with it. But if you don't agree with it, and merely think it is interesting as in it is a topic of possible discussion then that is also what we are doing, but I was questioning you as if I believed you were of the same opinion as Miller.

I tried to make it clear that I was merely sharing what I heard on the radio.

I think the confusion came while in mid-discussion with Omnis, I think I did try to sell how Muslim leaders would be far better equipped, connected than the Americans. But as I said, it was strictly hypothetical and completely unrealistic. I couldn't begin to guess how an operation like that could be drawn up.

I certainly hope I didn't suggest that I shared Dennis Miller's view(he said it lightly, I don't think he believes in it), and if I did say that somewhere, I am sorry, and I miswrote!

 

[Nicksfix]

There's a lot of catching up to do in this thread. I kind of sight read quickly without any depth.I seen some good points,I seen some other points.After I get a chance to read it more in depth and refer to the links provided by some.I'll add my.02.

Very interesting thread.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else. From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible. Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area. Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

 

[Northstar]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else. From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible. Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area. Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

From a Muslim point of view they are being unfairly targeted for the actions of a few people. From an extremist's point of view they are as against the mosque as you are, by raising a huge fuss over it as it shows that their goal of striking fear into the hearts of Americans was successful. By going ahead with the mosque we would show them their plan didn't work.

And that whole Hezbollah thing is the "guilty by association" type of thing, it's basically like saying I'm a nazi because my great grandma lived in Germany during WW2.

Oh, also, the person funding the mosque is the second largest stockholder in News Corp(Fox's parent company).

 

[Tornado]

Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related.

Those leaders that Fox News said have suspected terrorist ties? One of them partially owns Fox News. And has been on several Fox News programs before.

 

[Azuremen]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else. From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible. Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area. Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

You are basically connecting Islam straight to terrorism with this and just completely missing the point.

Preventing the mosque from being built is more or less undermining the entire concept of American freedom because some people can't differentiate between Muslims and Suicide Bombers. It is like saying "all Germans are NAZIs" or "all Christians are in the Aryan Nations."

 

[Northstar]

I was just reading some of the facebook pages about this and those people make the GT5 section look like scholars.

For the most part it was stupid "They hate us" and "it will be a terror cell" posts, but there was one that was particularly amazingly stupid.

OK how about a compromise?
Instead of turning ground zero into a mosque, lets turn a few mosques into ground zero.

I don't know if this person was serious or not, but this surely isn't going to make them stop "hating" us and don't see how it's any different from them saying they will blow us up.

Anyways, hows the job market in Canada?

 

[TouringDevotee]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else. From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible. Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area. Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

Ummmm... So which is it? According to Abd al-Rauf's beliefs, he is a Sunni Muslim and according to you he is "Hezbollah related" (Shia).

It has also been reported that he is a practitioner of Sufism (mostly Sunni, but also Shia), which would therefore make his beliefs detested by Wahhabis. I've never known Hizbullah to have a Sufi offshoot, but you could spread the rumor.

The newspaper reports about the 9/11 folks said nothing of their being Sufi related.

Your comments are very confusing. All Muslims are responsible for this? The idea is strange and yet sets an interesting precedent. If guilt by macro-association, rather than micro-association is the new law, then we are in some real trouble. On the bright side, if there isn't an attached statute of limitations, then I could make a bundle using this pretext setting argument in order to sue individual Catholics over the devastation brought on by the Catholic church's issuing "the Requirement" (Requerimiento), yet also extend my lawsuit to all Protestants and any offshoots.

 

[Scaff]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else.

So exactly how far away should they take it? I'd like you to provide an exact minimum distance and then explain exactly why that distance is OK and how you came up with it.

From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible.

Why? Without context your statement here is quite honestly meaningless.

Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area.

Why exactly is it?

Its a cultural center designed to help build better relationships across a wide raneg of faiths, how exactly is that a victory flag in a technical or non-technical manner?

Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

Source please (and a credible one) or this is just meaningless noise with about as much validity and me wanting every Catholic out of the UK as they are IRA related.

Even with a link a big difference exists between related, as the illustration I used proves - my wife is Catholic, meaning that she is technically IRA related. That however does not mean that she shares the views, goal and ambitions that they do, nor does it make here a terrorist and/or terrorist sympathizer. In future please be a lot more careful before making blanket statements like this about entire groups of people.




Scaff

 

[Joel]

I disagree. Take it somewhere else. From a Muslim's POV, I think this is horrible. Its technically putting a victory flag on the ground zero area. Also, it has been reported that the leaders are Hezbollah related. If so, tell them to G:censored of the country.

Everyone says "take it somewhere else", or "build it somewhere else", but what I'd like to know is exactly how far is too close? Also, it's not like there's a ton of free space in New York to build a community centre (it's not a freaking mosque)

 

[a6m5]

Everyone says "take it somewhere else", or "build it somewhere else", but what I'd like to know is exactly how far is too close? Also, it's not like there's a ton of free space in New York to build a community centre (it's not a freaking mosque)

But with a mosque in it.

I don't think it's accurate to say that "they are building a mosque", but IMO, it's also sort of misleading not to mention that this community center comes with a mosque in it.

***edit***

Now I read on the wikipedia that it does not contain a mosque in it. My apologies, as everything I read from various sources has either called it a mosque(which I wasn't buying anyway), or claimed that it will have a mosque in it. I've even mentioned it in the thread here, and I wasn't corrected, so this is news to me. So sorry.