- 128
- S_Diem
Round 1 Technical Discussion: Cape Ring
- Thread starter EL_ZISSOU
- 256 comments
- 19,225 views
- 1,056
- GT-Motion
Yea if that is true then cool, but when brought up on other sim forums the really fast sim guys state that in real life its a real technique used turn for turn and they aren't doing anything unrealistic, thats what I was referring to. They always find this one telemetry read out of Michael Schumacher when he used throttle+brake to get through a tight S turn and it turned out to be faster than his teammate through the same sector who wasn't using throttle+brake. Due to that readout being published, several of the fastest sim racers believe they can use throttle+brake in every single car on every track in every turn and it would reflect realistically in real life, when the truth is it wouldn't.
- 1,056
- GT-Motion
Of course you can push them both at the same time, thats stupid to think you can't physically do it, but it is not an effective or practical way to treat a car turn for turn. That video shows his feet, it shows no end result of his efforts, nor does it show the impractical sides of this technique. A Grand Am driver who is also a sim racer asked his pit crew chief what he thought about it and the pit crew chief said they wouldn't even consider it because the extra fuel you would be using while trying to slow the car would be a far worse loss than any time you would gain even if it was effective, because you are trying to slow the car to "x" speed, and if you are applying throttle+brake your brakes are working harder than normal and you are using fuel while slowing the car, so the stability you gain from having throttle+brake is not worth the extra strain to the brakes and fuel consumed in the process. He also had points as well to why it would not be effective I just can't recall them at the moment.
On top of that, if it was the fastest way, like many sim drivers will insist it is (in real life not sim), then why is throttle+brake not taught at the top racing schools throughout the world? Do you really think its a secret technique that sim racers know about that real pro's don't?
Check out these articles, Nico, who was my instructor at one time, is arguing against left foot braking. However, in part 2, where Jeff Westphal is arguing the benefits of left foot braking, he even says himself that throttle+brake is a no no.
Part 1
http://www.formula1blog.com/2010/12/13/the-drivers-seat-right-foot-vs-left-foot-braking/
Part 2
http://www.formula1blog.com/2010/12/14/the-drivers-seat-right-foot-vs-left-foot-braking-2/
Look at part 2, here is a quote from Jeff Westphal:
"Another problem area can be Gas and brake at the same time. Hey!!!!! Accelerating and braking are opposing forces, if your braking with your left foot, don’t try and accelerate constantly with the right at the same time. Go take a dance lesson and coordinate those feet. This one is simple, if you’re doing this and can’t feel it, you probably shouldn’t be driving a racecar!" - Jeff Westphal
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I've seen this discussion go on for months on forums.
Let me grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.
"if your braking with your left foot, don’t try and accelerate constantly with the right at the same time."
Not AT ALL the point of doing it. Look man, if you don't even understand why it's done, how can you argue against it?
Let me grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.
"if your braking with your left foot, don’t try and accelerate constantly with the right at the same time."
Not AT ALL the point of doing it. Look man, if you don't even understand why it's done, how can you argue against it?
- 1,056
- GT-Motion
I am not talking about left foot braking, left foot braking is cool in my book, I am talking about what you said in regards to letting throttle+brake overlap each other. The telemetry I see of fast sim drivers is brake+10-30% throttle through the entire turn without ever letting off the throttle completely. So yes, I do understand, and yes, his quote applies. Then when you use their setup's the brake bias is set to the rear of the car making it super loose to drive without using throttle+brake through the turn.
- 620
- Choate51
Some of the reason why there is a small amount of gas applied through the corner is in some cars you need to keep the engine in it's power band. I know when I am using a turbo charged car I will use this strategy to allow the boost to stay high, allowing maximum acceleration out of the corner.
I learned how to do this when I raced 3 hole yamaha karts. The karts had no power so you had to keep momentum and inertia high. So you made sure you were almost always on the throttle so the centrifugal clutch would stay engaged and allow for full power asap. This method transferred over very well to the higher HP karts such as TAG and even 125cc shifter.
Don't forget, "When the rear end's loose, the car's fast. Loose is fast, and on the edge of out of control. "
I learned how to do this when I raced 3 hole yamaha karts. The karts had no power so you had to keep momentum and inertia high. So you made sure you were almost always on the throttle so the centrifugal clutch would stay engaged and allow for full power asap. This method transferred over very well to the higher HP karts such as TAG and even 125cc shifter.
Don't forget, "When the rear end's loose, the car's fast. Loose is fast, and on the edge of out of control. "
- 1,056
- GT-Motion
I have also heard of people doing this in turbo cars for slower turns, I don't have enough experience with those karts so I am going to trust your word for it there.
I think honestly it might have been dumb to open up this can of worms, only because what I see is in sim racing, the consensus is that every car, every turn, to be driven the fastest is usually with throttle+braking and a cranked rear brake bias. This sparked arguments long ago about realism, and many argued its not real, while the fastest sim racers argued it is real. Even when given examples that the cars they are using throttle+brake in to achieve their world record laps, it is shown that its impossible in real life to do it (i.e. Skip Barber car where the steering column separates your two feet forcing left foot for clutch and right foot for gas+brake.)
xe2lbs is actually right when he says this argument will go on forever. Since I responded to their comments about throttle+brake to open the argument I will try to close the argument too so we aren't exhausting ourselves on something that has been argued to death already.
In the majority of situations, in real life only not sim racing, it is not wise to use throttle+brake at the same time. There are however certain situations, and certain cars where it can be beneficial to use some throttle+brake at the same time. This is a non issue in GT Academy at the moment so I am over it.
Turbo car is a great example of why it is done,
The other reason mentioned here, changing the brake bias on the spot is also a valid one.
The brakes work their ass off when you stop from a high speed run. In fact, try it in your road car, get it up to 100mph and slow down to 20mph as quickly can, most cars will overheat the brakes just by doing that. That doesn't happen to a race car because it's setup for the abuse.
Tell me how having a little throttle applied during braking is much worse for the brakes? It's not, can't go crazy with it, but like Choate51 said, when you're on the edge of out of control, it doesn't take much to mess with the car. If you're good enough you can mess with it to your advantage.
A RWD car will stop a slide very quickly if you apply brakes + WOT. The rear just comes right back in line. Sometimes this is much better to do than to counter steer. If you watch F1 and see a guy start spinning then out of no where the car snaps right back with no steering input, that's what the guys are doing.
in a FWD car, it bring the brake bias to the rear which is obviously useful depending on how much understeer you got, etc.
Most race cars have settings that allow you to fine tune it so you don't have to resort to crazy **** like this, but sometimes you got what you got and if you can make better use of it than the next guy, you come out on top.
The other reason mentioned here, changing the brake bias on the spot is also a valid one.
The brakes work their ass off when you stop from a high speed run. In fact, try it in your road car, get it up to 100mph and slow down to 20mph as quickly can, most cars will overheat the brakes just by doing that. That doesn't happen to a race car because it's setup for the abuse.
Tell me how having a little throttle applied during braking is much worse for the brakes? It's not, can't go crazy with it, but like Choate51 said, when you're on the edge of out of control, it doesn't take much to mess with the car. If you're good enough you can mess with it to your advantage.
A RWD car will stop a slide very quickly if you apply brakes + WOT. The rear just comes right back in line. Sometimes this is much better to do than to counter steer. If you watch F1 and see a guy start spinning then out of no where the car snaps right back with no steering input, that's what the guys are doing.
in a FWD car, it bring the brake bias to the rear which is obviously useful depending on how much understeer you got, etc.
Most race cars have settings that allow you to fine tune it so you don't have to resort to crazy **** like this, but sometimes you got what you got and if you can make better use of it than the next guy, you come out on top.
- 128
- S_Diem
*edit* reading owns me
- 128
- S_Diem
I'll give you how I take these corners, although it may differ quite a bit between drivers.
10-13: For turn 10, I try to situate the car as far to the left over the curbs/grass as I can in order to maintain speed through 11. For 11, I think its important not to use too much steering input because oversteer may occur and scrub off a lot of speed. A good example of how to take this corner is Choate's replay. I think he maintains a speed of above 120 here. For me, if I am above 117 it's pretty decent.
I can't remember if you go over the curb at the apex of 11 or not. See Choate's replay for reference.
At the exit of 11 if I hit it right I will end up in the grass right up against the guardrail sideways. Because you are sideways, when you finally transition to the asphalt the car catches and makes for a good entry into 12. For turn 12, don't go over the curb at the apex. If I remember correctly, I brake just after the curb at turn 12 and downshift gradually (not rushed) to 3rd gear. To get the car around 13 I let off the brakes relatively soon to rotate the car. When the car rotates I feed in the throttle to aim the car down the track for a good exit, usually along the white lines at the exit.
For 15, two good replays to check are Choate's and Fix's. Choate has an early entry whereas Fix has a later entry. They both use two different techniques that seem to work well for them. For this corner, I prefer a later turn in point, but I try to keep the speed above atleast 77mph. Fix takes this corner at 80 the entire way around. My philosophy on this corner is to be as smooth as possible with both steering and throttle input. I try to always bee on the throttle slightly to maintain speed.
For 16 it's better to take more curb on the first right hand kink in order to set up a better exit over the grass and into the pit exit. I prefer to go down to 3rd, but I believe Choate keeps it in 4th for this transition.
I hope this makes sense and offers some insight into how to take these corners. Let me know if you need some clarification on
10-13: For turn 10, I try to situate the car as far to the left over the curbs/grass as I can in order to maintain speed through 11. For 11, I think its important not to use too much steering input because oversteer may occur and scrub off a lot of speed. A good example of how to take this corner is Choate's replay. I think he maintains a speed of above 120 here. For me, if I am above 117 it's pretty decent.
I can't remember if you go over the curb at the apex of 11 or not. See Choate's replay for reference.
At the exit of 11 if I hit it right I will end up in the grass right up against the guardrail sideways. Because you are sideways, when you finally transition to the asphalt the car catches and makes for a good entry into 12. For turn 12, don't go over the curb at the apex. If I remember correctly, I brake just after the curb at turn 12 and downshift gradually (not rushed) to 3rd gear. To get the car around 13 I let off the brakes relatively soon to rotate the car. When the car rotates I feed in the throttle to aim the car down the track for a good exit, usually along the white lines at the exit.
For 15, two good replays to check are Choate's and Fix's. Choate has an early entry whereas Fix has a later entry. They both use two different techniques that seem to work well for them. For this corner, I prefer a later turn in point, but I try to keep the speed above atleast 77mph. Fix takes this corner at 80 the entire way around. My philosophy on this corner is to be as smooth as possible with both steering and throttle input. I try to always bee on the throttle slightly to maintain speed.
For 16 it's better to take more curb on the first right hand kink in order to set up a better exit over the grass and into the pit exit. I prefer to go down to 3rd, but I believe Choate keeps it in 4th for this transition.
I hope this makes sense and offers some insight into how to take these corners. Let me know if you need some clarification on
- 133
- Seankf1105
Set yourself up as soon as possible for 16 and go WOT all the way, or almost all the way up to the apex. (I usually end up dipping only my front left wheel over the curb at 16, and my right 2 wheels over the curb of the last kink of T15). Tap the brake immediatly after or during the apex to rotate yourself so you are more or less parallel with the gaurdrail along the pit exit. If you do this right you should be sliding across the grass a little but more importantly you should mostly be moving forward towards T17 at the same time.
Edit: Now that I think about it I think you want to be more or less parallel with the grass not the guardrail. To be more precise I think as I go over the grass my car is probably at a 5-10 degree angle from the grass/edge of the track (pointing slightly towards the gaurdrail). You want to have full grip once you get back onto the pavement of the pit exit where you will then turn yourself lightly towards T17
Edit: Now that I think about it I think you want to be more or less parallel with the grass not the guardrail. To be more precise I think as I go over the grass my car is probably at a 5-10 degree angle from the grass/edge of the track (pointing slightly towards the gaurdrail). You want to have full grip once you get back onto the pavement of the pit exit where you will then turn yourself lightly towards T17
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- 128
- S_Diem
^^^ Good point about catching the front left over the curb. This helps to keep you from running wide into the guardrail, which I've done many times.
).- 133
- Seankf1105
"Wide open throttle"
- 6,290
- Washington State
- OutlawQuadrant
For me, the hard part is how I'm exiting T9 to set up for T10. Often, I have to breathe the throttle ever so slightly so I get the tires to bite and set up for T11. As for T11, I'm not one to try to mow the grass (since I'm not very good at it) so 117 mph is the best I've been able to do.
With T12, I'm still trying to find the best way to attack this corner. For some reason, I'm always slower if I downshift to 3rd and try to hug the corner all the way to the left. I always beat my ghost by staying in 4th and using a higher line to carry more speed (around 77-80 mph vs 72-76 mph using a lower line). Problem is that I'm usually a bit more to the right than I want to approaching T14 and need to really get the car to rotate properly.
As for T15 and T16, I apply a small amount of brake and try to visually this section as a long round corner while keeping the car above 76-80 mph. I've tried both using 3rd and 4th gear through T16 and 4th works better for me.
On a side note, after reading the last few posts, I decided to hit Cape Ring again and ran a few high 2.46s (after not being able to hit them since January 2!) before a 2:46.489 graced my screen. I was doing doughnuts soon after.
- 128
- S_Diem
T9 should be easy flat out all the way around until the T10 kink/curb area. If you are having trouble holding wide open throttle through T9 exit, I suggest turning less. I used to scrub off a lot of speed at the exit of T9 because I would apply too much steering input, thus causing understeer. So I suggest a slightly late apex with small steering adjustments if needed.
On a side note, after reading the last few posts, I decided to hit Cape Ring again and ran a few high 2.46s (after not being able to hit them since January 2!) before a 2:46.489 graced my screen. I was doing doughnuts soon after.
Sweet, good job.
- 713
- Connecticut
- Forcednduckshn
Congrats to Blindside for a smoking time on the cape 👍
I'm consistently almost 3 tenths up on my 2.46.2 on the cape in the first sector alone, and can pull another few tenths in the last sector. A 2.45.7 is coming for me on this track in the next day or so. I truthfully could see how a 2.44.7 is possible with even more seat time, as crazy as that sounds (but I am no where near consistent enough yet to achieve that, and this is just adding up best sectors from mine and the top guys and cornering speeds I have achieved on occasion for that miracle lap). But from there, I will probably go and spend my time practicing with a GTR and Z on the other tracks for round 2.
Cheers.
P.S. - Overlapping braking/throttle is not a common technique in real life, but there are situations where you want to do it and is the fastest. Usually it is to overcome an undesirable balance at any given point in time in the corner. I do it occasionally in Autocross and carting. I do it all the time in GT5. It's the best way to balance the car when the suspension is loaded and to smooth the transition of the chassis in various states of the corner.
I'm consistently almost 3 tenths up on my 2.46.2 on the cape in the first sector alone, and can pull another few tenths in the last sector. A 2.45.7 is coming for me on this track in the next day or so.
I truthfully could see how a 2.44.7 is possible with even more seat time, as crazy as that sounds (but I am no where near consistent enough yet to achieve that, and this is just adding up best sectors from mine and the top guys and cornering speeds I have achieved on occasion for that miracle lap). But from there, I will probably go and spend my time practicing with a GTR and Z on the other tracks for round 2.Cheers.
P.S. - Overlapping braking/throttle is not a common technique in real life, but there are situations where you want to do it and is the fastest. Usually it is to overcome an undesirable balance at any given point in time in the corner. I do it occasionally in Autocross and carting. I do it all the time in GT5. It's the best way to balance the car when the suspension is loaded and to smooth the transition of the chassis in various states of the corner.
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- 615
- blindsidefive0
2:44.914
Sector 1 - 48.655
Sector 2 - 1:24.944
Sector 3 - 2:18.891
Sector 1 was pretty clean. I was just a little aggressive on the throttle coming out of 3, and the turn 4/5 transition wasn't as smooth as it should have been. Turn 6 I've carried just a bit more speed through there, but it wasn't bad. I don't like my turn 8 - I failed to get down to the apex. I actually saw a 48.528 this morning, but the .6 is pretty solid for me.
I took some liberties in sector 2, actually touching the wall. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. I also went in just a little too hot into 13. It's not faster to track out of 13 like a lot of other drivers do, and I wished I could have stayed just a little tighter. Turn 14 is very important, and I come out fast enough. My best ever through this sector was a 1:24.87x, so I'm pretty happy with the 1:24.9.
Sector 3 wasn't bad. I could have carried just a little more speed through the 2nd right of T15, but I was happy with my exits of 16 and 17. The ring was average - I carried OK speed on entry, but I did not have a very solid exit. I didn't get quite wide enough to nail the apex well.
Sector 4 was pretty good. I didn't carry the most speed ever through 21/22, but I was smooth enough through 23-25 to finish the lap.
So there it is - a 2:44. Absolutely not perfect, but I'll settle with it. Now Fix is going to show us what a sub-2:44.500 looks like.
Sector 1 - 48.655
Sector 2 - 1:24.944
Sector 3 - 2:18.891
Sector 1 was pretty clean. I was just a little aggressive on the throttle coming out of 3, and the turn 4/5 transition wasn't as smooth as it should have been. Turn 6 I've carried just a bit more speed through there, but it wasn't bad. I don't like my turn 8 - I failed to get down to the apex. I actually saw a 48.528 this morning, but the .6 is pretty solid for me.
I took some liberties in sector 2, actually touching the wall. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. I also went in just a little too hot into 13. It's not faster to track out of 13 like a lot of other drivers do, and I wished I could have stayed just a little tighter. Turn 14 is very important, and I come out fast enough. My best ever through this sector was a 1:24.87x, so I'm pretty happy with the 1:24.9.
Sector 3 wasn't bad. I could have carried just a little more speed through the 2nd right of T15, but I was happy with my exits of 16 and 17. The ring was average - I carried OK speed on entry, but I did not have a very solid exit. I didn't get quite wide enough to nail the apex well.
Sector 4 was pretty good. I didn't carry the most speed ever through 21/22, but I was smooth enough through 23-25 to finish the lap.
So there it is - a 2:44. Absolutely not perfect, but I'll settle with it. Now Fix is going to show us what a sub-2:44.500 looks like.
- 128
- S_Diem
Awesome lap man, congrats.
- 133
- Seankf1105
Nice job dude! How did you react when you saw that you finally got that sub 2:45 time? hahaha I would have gone crazy after all that time it seems you put into it. 👍
- 2,590
- GTP_SohnVonStig
- 133
- Seankf1105
Would anyone care to explain the most effective/reliable method to take T25 to where Im hitting the 2nd curb on the main straight at 93mph? I thought I had it down but seem to keep screwing it up today.
About to go to the replay theater but it might be more helpful to know what is going through other ppl's minds at this point of the lap.
Thanks in advance guys 👍
About to go to the replay theater but it might be more helpful to know what is going through other ppl's minds at this point of the lap.
Thanks in advance guys 👍
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