Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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It was poison, not WMD.
Nerve agents are included in the definition of chemical weapons - and a controlled substance under the CWC (under which Russia is supposed to have destroyed its entire stock of chemical weapons and terminated all development and production in 2017 - novichok was specifically developed to evade CWC's definitions, and was added to them after the Salisbury attack...).

Whether it's classed as a WMD or not is simply a matter of convention, and not something contained in either @Liquid or @Touring Mars's posts.
 
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Whether it's classed as a WMD or not is simply a matter of convention, and not something contained in either
I am not argue that use of polonium or nerve agent is Ok. I am saying that there is rift between WMD used against general population (which is a one way to Hague) and using such horrible things against one target with few additional casualties.

Right now Putin is subject of international relations, if he use WMD against population he instantly become an object.

Sure, current situation should lead all world to new order in which any kind of military operation within you country that wasn't sanctioned by UN should be illegal. Also, veto right shouldn't be a thing anymore.
 
The Guardian reports tonight that 1582 civilians have been killed in Mariupol alone since the Russian assault began.

This isn't a war, it's genocide.
 
How many Ukrainians must be sacrificed before we get an actual sort of response from the West?
Truthful answer, there will be no military response because Putin is going for broke - he has turned nuclear deterrence on its head and turned it into a shield to allow him to change the world order as it stands... he doesn't get his way, then everyone dies.

Of course, he will fail in the long run, but unfortunately that doesn't mean that his opponents automatically win. Putin's aggression against Ukraine is a crime against humanity - whether he wins or loses.
 
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The Guardian reports tonight that 1582 civilians have been killed in Mariupol alone since the Russian assault began.

This isn't a war, it's genocide.
This may be a dumb question, but if the toll is becoming onerous, why doesn't the garrison surrender?
 
Truthful answer, there will be no military response because Putin is going for broke - he has turned nuclear deterrence on its head and turned it into a shield to allow him to change the world order as it stands... he doesn't get his way, then everyone dies.

Of course, he will fail in the long run, but unfortunately that doesn't mean that his opponents automatically win. Putin's aggression against Ukraine is a crime against humanity - whether he wins or loses.
It remains to be seen how the West responds when Russia eventually does fail, concede, stop, or whatever form that takes. Aid to Russia? The US does have track record of providing huge amounts of aid to whomever's society they just destroyed. Will we provide aid to the Russian people to make up for our only real option of decimating the Russian economy? We've learned in the past that continuing to isolate and restrict a resourceful country is not the right move, but we also just learned that integrating Russia into the world economy emboldened them rather than satisfied them.

Or do we just leave them to pick up the scraps that these sanctions are going to result in?
 
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How many Ukrainians must be sacrificed before we get an actual sort of response from the West?
No one will risk millions to save thousands. It doesn't make sense. Right now we talking about numbers comparable to daily Covid deaths in big country.

There isnt real treat to EU as soon as RF not using nukes.
This may be a dumb question, but if the toll is becoming onerous, why doesn't the garrison surrender?
First of all, its their home and they dont want to give it to invaders. Second, it would be ungrateful to those who already fallen. Third, its Azov vs LPR fighting, invaders wouldn't be merciful to them.

I would surrendered already, cant see real reasons to fight with Russians. War criminals or not, they definitely not killing civilians in occupied cities. Yet, I respect Ukrainians
choice.
 
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its Azov vs LPR fighting
Azov is reputedly a Neo-Nazi militia, perhaps not entirely under Zelensky's control, and LPR is the Luhansk militia.

I was under the impression that this southern axis was under the control of the most experienced commanders and veteran soldiers that Russia has available to it, and not the local militia.

 
Azov is reputedly a Neo-Nazi militia, perhaps not entirely under Zelensky's control
Its spec ops regiment right now. I can't see anything bad from Mariupol about them and its russian speaking city. Most likely there are nationalists in that regiment, but neo nazi staff could be exaggeration from RF propaganda.
 
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Truthful answer, there will be no military response because Putin is going for broke - he has turned nuclear deterrence on its head and turned it into a shield to allow him to change the world order as it stands... he doesn't get his way, then everyone dies.

Of course, he will fail in the long run, but unfortunately that doesn't mean that his opponents automatically win. Putin's aggression against Ukraine is a crime against humanity - whether he wins or loses.
It's a crime he'll never get trialled for. As soon as someone begins even talking about taking him to the Hague it's the same nuke threat story again - he doesn't get his way, everyone dies.
 
Man, Russia's investment in QAnon is paying dividends for them:
Putin doesn't need to fight a war in the US since he managed to find a way to get to the stupidest the US has to offer and brainwash them. I am really curious if you followed the money trail, how many Q-cumbers in Congress have Russia money funding them...actually maybe it's better not knowing that answer.
 
Azov are scum and quite rightly should have no part in a civilised society
I'm glad we agree at least on this...

How many members does the Azov battalion have? 300? You start a war against a country of 44 millions because 0.0007% of them are nazis? That’s a pathetic excuse.
however to then use that as a reason to invade a sovereign country isn't justified.
I didn't say it's a sufficient justification for invasion! Neither I said anything like "all resisting Ukrainians are Nazis".
But even if you deplore the Russian operation in Ukraine, you shouldn't ignore the fact that the Kremlin's propaganda about "Nazis Nazis everywhere" isn't out of nowhere, and Zelensky's Jewish heritage doesn't obstruct it in any way.

In another ominous development, Ukraine has in recent years erected a glut of statues honoring Ukrainian nationalists whose legacies are tainted by their indisputable record as Nazi proxies. The Forward newspaper cataloged some of these deplorables, including Stepan Bandera, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), whose followers acted as local militia members for the SS and German army. “Ukraine has several dozen monuments and scores of street names glorifying this Nazi collaborator, enough to require two separate Wikipedia pages,” the Forward wrote.
Another frequent honoree is Roman Shukhevych, revered as a Ukrainian freedom fighter but also the leader of a feared Nazi auxiliary police unit that the Forward notes was “responsible for butchering thousands of Jews and … Poles.” Statues have also been raised for Yaroslav Stetsko, a one-time chair of the OUN, who wrote “I insist on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine.”

Far-right groups have also gained political currency in the past decade, none more chilling than Svoboda (formerly the Social National Party of Ukraine), whose leader claimed the country was controlled by a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” and whose deputy used an antisemitic slur to describe Ukrainian-born Jewish actor Mila Kunis. Svoboda has sent several members to Ukraine’s Parliament, including one who called the Holocaust a “bright period” in human history, according to Foreign Policy.

Just as disturbing, neo-Nazis are part of some of Ukraine’s growing ranks of volunteer battalions. They are battle-hardened after waging some of the toughest street fighting against Moscow-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine following Putin’s Crimean invasion in 2014. One is the Azov Battalion, founded by an avowed white supremacist who claimed Ukraine’s national purpose was to rid the country of Jews and other inferior races. In 2018, the U.S. Congress stipulated that its aid to Ukraine couldn’t be used “to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.” Even so, Azov is now an official member of the Ukraine National Guard.
There may be not so many servicemen in Azov regiment, but as members of Ukraine National Guard they are a part of the state security system. And a powerful part. And not just Azov, there are other nationalist "volunteer battalions" (dobrobaty) - Aidar, Donbas, Tornado and other paramilitaries that are known for Nazi salutes and war crimes. Some of them aren't even subordinated to the government.

I'm not saying getting rid of them is worth launching a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, but if Zelensky did something about them earlier it could help to cool down the tensions with Russia. But it turned out that a Jewish president is fine with neo-Nazi paramilitaries having power in his country and ignoring his orders (and Zelensky's ancestry is not an obstacle for that). Or he was just powerless to deal with them.
After all it's not as if Putin and his ideology doesn't appeal just as much to neo-nazi's.
I know Putin isn't saint, but neo-Nazi?
Do you seriously equalize the European right-wing parties (mentioned in this article saying they're allied to Putin) to neo-Nazis? Interestingly, the real Russian right-wing communities consider Putin too leftist to be a proper leader of our country.
Did OMON torture you with police baton? Because I don't know who can seriously repeat this bull**** about Azov in Mariupol.
Its spec ops regiment right now. I can't see anything bad from Mariupol about them and its russian speaking city. Most likely there are nationalists in that regiment, but neo nazi staff could be exaggeration from RF propaganda.
Like I noted above, even Western media doesn't hesitate referring to Azov regiment as to neo-Nazis (but more often they just avoid even mentioning them). The US even banned Azov from recieving military aid.
 
I know Putin isn't saint, but neo-Nazi?
I don't know, Putin wants to take over Europe, is completely unhinged, is committing acts of genocide, and finding a way to blame Russia's problems on everything but himself. There was a famous German who did exactly the same thing in the 1930s and 40s.

Hopefully, Putin's ending mirrors that of Hitler's.
 
And who told you this? Do you read his mind?
A couple of weeks ago you were mocking the idea of an invasion, and telling me NATO wanted to invade Russia...

.. now you want to question people questioning Putin's motives after he did what he told you he wasn't going to do, and that you thought he wasn't going to do?

... Please ...

I thought Vodka was the national drink of Russia, now I realise it's Putin's Kool Aid.
 
I know Putin isn't saint, but neo-Nazi?
Do you seriously equalize the European right-wing parties (mentioned in this article saying they're allied to Putin) to neo-Nazis? Interestingly, the real Russian right-wing communities consider Putin too leftist to be a proper leader of our country.
Putin and the Kremlin have their own band of NeoNazi led thugs, ones Putin has been photographed with and have been linked directly to the Kremlin.

1647131566414.png


The deNazification is a propaganda call to appeal to Russia WW2 history, as anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows.

Of course neo nazi exist in Ukraine, just as they do in Russia, what they certainly don't is exist in the scale, power, and influence that Putin is conjoring up to try and justify an illegal war.

 
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Putin is using the well-tested projection tactic to basically inform us he will do exactly what he says the Ukrainians are doing to Russians.
 
It remains to be seen how the West responds when Russia eventually does fail, concede, stop, or whatever form that takes. Aid to Russia? The US does have track record of providing huge amounts of aid to whomever's society they just destroyed. Will we provide aid to the Russian people to make up for our only real option of decimating the Russian economy? We've learned in the past that continuing to isolate and restrict a resourceful country is not the right move, but we also just learned that integrating Russia into the world economy emboldened them rather than satisfied them.

Or do we just leave them to pick up the scraps that these sanctions are going to result in?
If the Russian people get rid of Putin and take a turn to the West, then the US would probably be more than happy to provide aid. All of our oligarchs would love another opportunity to make more money.
Man, Russia's investment in QAnon is paying dividends for them:
Putin doesn't need to fight a war in the US since he managed to find a way to get to the stupidest the US has to offer and brainwash them. I am really curious if you followed the money trail, how many Q-cumbers in Congress have Russia money funding them...actually maybe it's better not knowing that answer.
It is so sad that we have so many people that are seemingly simple minded that they would believe Russian propaganda and believe that the US is preparing to unleash a bio-weapon. I guess it makes some sense when it is compared to evangelicals condemning something and then doing exactly that. Projection is a helluva thing.
 
And who told you this? Do you read his mind?
I don't know, people in military intelligence and analytics believe it, and given they're more in tune with what's going on than any of us, I'm inclined to believe them.
Suddenly what Putin is doing is genocide, but Russians slaughtered by Ukraine in Donbass was NOT genocide, huh?
Why is it that every time a Putin-aid drinker enters a discussion about anything Russian-related, they immediately go to whataboutism? Even if the Ukrainians were committing genocide in Donbas (they weren't, but they were likely committing war crimes) that doesn't excuse Putin from committing genocide in Ukraine.
 
Now @ Rage Racer : Link to source is Two years OLD !!

* Do you mean it's relevant to the Invasion and the layest days events ?!

* Really ?!

Take a closer look. The photo over the headline is 2 years old, not the article.
March 5, 2022, 1:38 PM MSK
By Allan Ripp, principal of Ripp Media
And yes it's relevant, the Azov regiment never disappeared in these 2 years.
Putin and the Kremlin have their own band of NeoNazi led thugs, ones Putin has been photographed with and have been linked directly to the Kremlin.

View attachment 1123275

The deNazification is a propaganda call to appeal to Russia WW2 history, as anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows.

Of course neo nazi exist in Ukraine, just as they do in Russia, what they certainly don't is exist in the scale, power, and influence that Putin is conjoring up to try and justify an illegal war.

But at least we don't name streets after Nazi collaborators like they do in Kyiv, and we don't honor them on the state level...

A couple of weeks ago you were mocking the idea of an invasion
I didn't say I was sure RF wouldn't invade Ukraine (I noted before: I'm not saying there 100% will be no invasion). But what I'm sure about is that Putin and his military heads aren't crazy enough to pick a fight with NATO directly. That would be a suicide move.
 
And who told you this? Do you read his mind?

Suddenly what Putin is doing is genocide, but Russians slaughtered by Ukraine in Donbass was NOT genocide, huh?
I really don't think what Russia is doing in Ukraine right now qualifies as "genocide", nor do I think what Ukrainians might have done in Donbass qualifies as genocide. There is no systematic attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic/racial/religious/political group.
But at least we don't name streets after Nazi collaborators like they do in Kyiv, and we don't honor them on the state level...
What the Nazi Germany did under Hitler was terrible, but what communist Russia did under Stalin wasn't much better.

... the Soviet elimination of a social class, the kulaks (who were higher-income farmers), and the subsequent killer famine among all Ukrainian peasants – as well as the notorious 1937 order No. 00447 that called for the mass execution and exile of “socially harmful elements” as “enemies of the people” – were, in fact, genocide. Stalin had nearly a million of his own citizens executed, beginning in the 1930s. Millions more fell victim to forced labor, deportation, famine, massacres, and detention and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen.


So ex-KGB officer Putin accusing Ukrainians of being "nazis" is disingenuous at best. Unlike Germany, Russia has never really been forced to acknowledge its own brutal totalitarian history. One of the ironies of this, is that fact that the power vacuum created by the emasculation of German militarism is precisely what has allowed Russian military imperialism to flourish.
 
Hideous, shameful but also quite pathetic as well.

So many Russian allies rallying to their aid that Putin needs African and Middle Eastern mercenaries to act as cannon fodder.
First Belarus, then Chechnya, now African & Middle Eastern fighters. Good on Kazakhstan for being the only ones with balls to say, "Naw, we're good fam".
It is so sad that we have so many people that are seemingly simple minded that they would believe Russian propaganda and believe that the US is preparing to unleash a bio-weapon. I guess it makes some sense when it is compared to evangelicals condemning something and then doing exactly that. Projection is a helluva thing.
Unleashing? I've already read crackpot theories the US & Ukraine were experimenting with Covid as the bio-weapon. We & Chyna must be closer than I thought.
 
Like I noted above, even Western media doesn't hesitate referring to Azov regiment as to neo-Nazis (but more often they just avoid even mentioning them). The US even banned Azov from recieving military aid.
Yeah, Azov right now and in 2014 are the same thing.
but Russians slaughtered by Ukraine in Donbass was NOT genocide, hu

2021 - 7 killed, 32 injured. Info from DPR rulers, could be exaggeration.
at least we don't name streets after Nazi collaborators like they do in Kyiv, and we don't honor them on the state level...
We honor other mass murders and name streets after them. Should someone invade us because of that? Right now we praising blood bath and putting in jail those who protests against war. Wake up, you are part of this and trying to justify it.
 
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Meanwhile, back on the ground, it emerges that Kyiv is besieged from three directions. Artillery is now systematically targeting ammunition and food storage depots. Zelensky says he will never surrender.
 
Significant developments:

- Yavoriv military base/training facility 10 km from Polish border targeted by more than 30 cruise missiles, dozens killed, more hurt. This base likely has foreign trainers, IMHO.

- A senior Russian diplomat warned that foreign shipments or convoys of military equipment to Ukraine will be considered legitimate targets. It was unclear whether they would be targeted when still outside of Ukraine, but I doubt it.

 
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